Invulnerable Rager Barbarian


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For every 5 caster levels you possess beyond 5th, you gain a second ball of force.

so at lv10 that is shooting 2 of these blasts. at lv15 it's three 5d6 blasts. at 20 with intensified it's 4 10d6 blasts, or 40d6 blast, that empowers to 60d6 that is 7*30 = 210, quickened is 420 and that's not counting the extra damage per dice or maximized.


^Oops. Misread it as a total cap of 5d6, not a cap of 5d6 per ball.

Sovereign Court

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MageHunter wrote:
This has intrigued me. What do DR builds do when they run into a blaster of sorts, as magic automatically bypasses DR?

They actually have more trouble against Clustered Shot or Pummeling Style as while they have good HP, they tend to dump AC, and that makes a monk's Flurry of Misses become a Flurry of Crazy Damage.


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^Suddenly I've got this vision that Monks evolved to protect the world from the Barbarian hordes that had at the time over-optimized their Damage Resistance . . . .


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Chess Pwn wrote:

For every 5 caster levels you possess beyond 5th, you gain a second ball of force.

so at lv10 that is shooting 2 of these blasts. at lv15 it's three 5d6 blasts. at 20 with intensified it's 4 10d6 blasts, or 40d6 blast, that empowers to 60d6 that is 7*30 = 210, quickened is 420 and that's not counting the extra damage per dice or maximized.

It's 7d6 Intensified, by the way. And as a single target spell is quite easily countered by either a Rod of Absorption or Ring of Spell Turning.

Have fun with that.

Sovereign Court

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UnArcaneElection wrote:

^Suddenly I've got this vision that Monks evolved to protect the world from the Barbarian hordes that had at the time over-optimized their Damage Resistance . . . .

Or at least that's why they created Pummeling Style. (My monk is still sad that it doesn't give crazy crits anymore.)

Liberty's Edge

Das Bier wrote:

wow, a magic missile, uncapped, on roids. only drawback is short range and ranged touch, which ain't much of a drawback at all. Definitely a single target killer if you'd prefer to go that route. And you don't even need to intensify it since it hasn't got a cap. Just shoot your CL to the moon and you just do more and more dmg.

I can see this being a VERY useful spell at 15+.

That's the one reason I can't really like this spell. In order to optimize this spell you need to spend a number of feats and probably traits on it, while it doesn't really perform well until very high level. So unless you're bringing in a new character to a high level campaign, or the campaign you're playing in has both retraining, and enough time to retrain a number of feats, you're basically dedicating all your abilities into a spell that's only going to be good for a fraction of the campaign. At least with spells like fireball, or fire snake, they're actually fairly good the moment you get them, and get much better with investment.

EDIT - Also the fact that the majority of play I see ends in the low teens.


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Darksol the Painbringer wrote:


I could instead just focus on Battering Blast, hit you with 6(1.5(15D6+15))+10, with no Save, is Force damage (means can't be reduced in any way), and can Quicken for yet another set of the same; with this stuff combined, I would be deal over 500 points of damage on average: Nothing, not even a Tarrasque, would survive that damage. The only ways to stop it would be by using an Anti-Magic Field, Mage's Disjunction, Spellbane, or excessive Counterspelling, none of which the Barbarian can perform.

One of my favorite magic items: Ring of Force Fangs

NPC casters in my games tend to favor Lesser Globe of Invulnerability


Buuut, we're talking a barbarian. Who isn't going to pull out a Ring of Spell Turning or Rod of Absorption out of his ass on demand, like a caster can a Globe of Inv...and that globe would have to be up AHEAD of time. It's a little late after you get hit for 200 force damage with no save. And the fight isn't going to stop so you can run down to the market for an incredibly niche Ring of Forcefangs, then run back with it equipped to laugh at the mage using this spell.

It's not even elemental damage, so no Resistances or Prots.

It's a good use of a 3rd level slot for a high level caster. It saves you the intensify, it's cheap enough to empower and maximize fairly easily without spending spell specializations on it, all you need is higher caster level to make it effective. As an incorporeal killer, it's definitely a top notch spell. I can really see you speccing it for something like Carrion Crown. Who needs a Rod of Ectoplasmic spell? BOOM!

Granted, higher caster levels is NOT easy for non specialized spells, but, jeez, that is just a nice n0-damage cap and force damage works against, like, everything.


The ring of Force Fangs is cheap, only 8,000, assuming your party does not have a crafter.

I usually put it on my high AC figthers / Paladins starting around 8th or 9th level as an extra layer of protection vs Magic Missile, it does work vs Force Blast, should I ever encounter the spell. It works just as well for other classes, including barbarians.

As for Lesser Globe of Invulnerability, I only need it up in advance if their is another caster with a higher initiative. If the party makes a lot of noise, fails to stop an opponent from escaping, trips an alarm, etc., buffs will already be in place.


IT's a very, very niche protective item. A martial might go an entire campaign without being the target of a force spell. Likewise, the enemies who will have one to defend against YOUR caster will basically be zero.

I'm not saying it's not effective...it's very good in it's niche. But, jeez, something you might use once or twice a campaign? You can't even really 'charge it up', since a magic missile spell gives it a whopping ONE CHARGE. Ugh.


Chess Pwn wrote:

For every 5 caster levels you possess beyond 5th, you gain a second ball of force.

so at lv10 that is shooting 2 of these blasts. at lv15 it's three 5d6 blasts. at 20 with intensified it's 4 10d6 blasts, or 40d6 blast, that empowers to 60d6 that is 7*30 = 210, quickened is 420 and that's not counting the extra damage per dice or maximized.

Um, intensified raises the damage cap.

The spell has NO damage cap. If you can reach caster level 40, you get 8 balls of force. Like, wow.

As I said, magic missile on Roids. At low level it SUCKS (does the same damage as magic missile until level 10), but at 10th damage outright doubles to equal a fireball, and then it just keeps scaling.


Das Bier wrote:
Chess Pwn wrote:

For every 5 caster levels you possess beyond 5th, you gain a second ball of force.

so at lv10 that is shooting 2 of these blasts. at lv15 it's three 5d6 blasts. at 20 with intensified it's 4 10d6 blasts, or 40d6 blast, that empowers to 60d6 that is 7*30 = 210, quickened is 420 and that's not counting the extra damage per dice or maximized.

Um, intensified raises the damage cap.

The spell has NO damage cap. If you can reach caster level 40, you get 8 balls of force. Like, wow.

As I said, magic missile on Roids. At low level it SUCKS (does the same damage as magic missile until level 10), but at 10th damage outright doubles to equal a fireball, and then it just keeps scaling.

The spell has a damage cap.

Quote:
1d6 points of force damage per two caster levels (maximum 5d6)

That you get more balls of force doesn't change that.


Charon's Little Helper wrote:
MageHunter wrote:
This has intrigued me. What do DR builds do when they run into a blaster of sorts, as magic automatically bypasses DR?
They actually have more trouble against Clustered Shot or Pummeling Style as while they have good HP, they tend to dump AC, and that makes a monk's Flurry of Misses become a Flurry of Crazy Damage.

Until you find that for every attack the monk takes the barbarian gives you one in turn only way harder and all of them at full BAB. You will find your monk to be dead before they finish that flurry.


Das Bier wrote:

Human Barb Superstition bonus:

1 +2
3 +3
4 +4
6 +5
8 +6
9 +7
12 +9
15 +10
16 +11
18 +12
20 +13

Reflex save is +6 at 20, so +19 Reflex save.
Let's say a 20 dex. +24 Reflex save
+5 CLoak of Prot. +29 Reflex save.

And what was that D B Fireball? 28? Ah. Fails on a 1.
At 15th, lets say a 16 Dex and +5 Cloak, +5 from levels. +23. Makes it on a 5, or less if the mage doesn't have 30 Int.

Now grab a ring of evasion and Eater of magic. This is what I did with my PFS 15 lvl barb. No damage on a passed save and a free reroll if you fail it. It is totally awesome to ignore all reflex based spells.

Sovereign Court

Lab_Rat wrote:
Charon's Little Helper wrote:
MageHunter wrote:
This has intrigued me. What do DR builds do when they run into a blaster of sorts, as magic automatically bypasses DR?
They actually have more trouble against Clustered Shot or Pummeling Style as while they have good HP, they tend to dump AC, and that makes a monk's Flurry of Misses become a Flurry of Crazy Damage.
Until you find that for every attack the monk takes the barbarian gives you one in turn only way harder and all of them at full BAB. You will find your monk to be dead before they finish that flurry.

What are you talking about? If they have Pummeling Style, by level 8-9 they'll have Pounce. And monks have far more attacks than any barbarian build I've seen.

Besides, a decent monk should have a high enough AC that the barbarian misses more often as not. The monk's main weakness is accuracy, which a low AC target fixes for them. Starting at 4, a decent monk would destroy a low AC barbarian 1v1 (assuming equal level).


Darksol the Painbringer wrote:

But outside of flavor reasons, what benefit is there to do that?

Better AC? Maybe a couple points, because Barbarians use Medium Armor and dump their Dexterity to maybe a 12 tops, but it's not the end of the world. They could wear Full Plate instead and be at the same exact amount of AC; less Touch AC, but Touch AC is hard to bring up to a good amount no matter what class you play, so it doesn't really matter.

Better means of attack? Maybe if you're trying to go ranged, but that lacks damage since Dexterity doesn't apply unless you get some niche ability or feature. It otherwise costs at least two feats, and doesn't deal anywhere near as much damage than just sticking with pumping Strength and getting 1.5x modifier and Power Attack bonuses. Seriously, unless it's 3 levels of UCRogue with an Elven Curved Blade, it's not gonna compare.

Better Skills? Sure, Acrobatics is like the only skill a Barbarian might bother investing ranks into, but quite frankly if he has to dance around the battlefield instead of just kill people dead with his ridiculous amount of damage, then why am I playing a Barbarian? That's some Ninja or UCRogue kind of stuff there.

Better Saves? This is probably the only selling point, but to be honest, it's still not worth it because of what you give up for it in return, which is significantly less damage, plus feats better spent elsewhere, and even class features depending on which route you take. There's also the issue of carrying capacity, since I imagine you'll be dumping Strength to bump your Dexterity to its peak, as well as the limited means to increase your Dexterity compared to increasing your Strength.

Trust me, I've vetted this stuff, did some compare and contrast, and it shows; it might look better, but on paper, it just isn't.

Urban Barbarian is basically a Swashbuckler that doesn't suck after 3 levels. Its advantages are the same of every other Dex-based build...

- Slightly better AC.
- Better Reflex save.
- Better skill checks (Acrobatics isn't the only one. After all, if you're going DD Barbarian, you aren't going typicial Barbarian build).
- Better Initiative.
- Better ranged attack bonus (Deadly Aim + Witch hunter is ok).
- More AoO
- SADer build
- Cheaper belts (Even if your Str is as high as a Str-Barbarian's Dex, your belts are cheaper).

In exchange, you lose feats, damage and carrying capacity. It's a fair trade. It's probably not an optimal build, but it's completely viable and quite effective.

Just because it isn't optimal, doesn't mean it's a trap. Trap options are things like focusing on crossbows or playing a Core Rogue.


Charon's Little Helper wrote:
Lab_Rat wrote:
Charon's Little Helper wrote:
MageHunter wrote:
This has intrigued me. What do DR builds do when they run into a blaster of sorts, as magic automatically bypasses DR?
They actually have more trouble against Clustered Shot or Pummeling Style as while they have good HP, they tend to dump AC, and that makes a monk's Flurry of Misses become a Flurry of Crazy Damage.
Until you find that for every attack the monk takes the barbarian gives you one in turn only way harder and all of them at full BAB. You will find your monk to be dead before they finish that flurry.

What are you talking about? If they have Pummeling Style, by level 8-9 they'll have Pounce. And monks have far more attacks than any barbarian build I've seen.

Besides, a decent monk should have a high enough AC that the barbarian misses more often as not. The monk's main weakness is accuracy, which a low AC target fixes for them.

I believe the assumption was that Come and Get me was up and running meaning the Barbarian get's an attack of opportunity on the monk every time the monk attacks him. Because Aoo's resolve at full BAB it is unlikely that the monk can survive a Barbarians full attack + 4+ Attacks at full bab


Charon's Little Helper wrote:

What are you talking about? If they have Pummeling Style, by level 8-9 they'll have Pounce. And monks have far more attacks than any barbarian build I've seen.

Besides, a decent monk should have a high enough AC that the barbarian misses more often as not. The monk's main weakness is accuracy, which a low AC target fixes for them. Starting at 4, a decent monk would destroy a low AC barbarian 1v1 (assuming equal level).

Invulnerable Ragers commonly take Come and Get Me.

While I agree with you that Invulnerable Rager Barbs are weak against something like a flurry, you better have a damn good AC to survive it if they take the classic route for the build.

As far as attacks per round, my current lvl 15 Barb can take 4 attacks on his turn (3+ 1 from haste boots) and another 6 AoOs (amount taken depends on how may times he is attacked). That is 8 attacks at full BAB.

Ninja'd By Firewarrior

Sovereign Court

Firewarrior44 wrote:
Charon's Little Helper wrote:
Lab_Rat wrote:
Charon's Little Helper wrote:
MageHunter wrote:
This has intrigued me. What do DR builds do when they run into a blaster of sorts, as magic automatically bypasses DR?
They actually have more trouble against Clustered Shot or Pummeling Style as while they have good HP, they tend to dump AC, and that makes a monk's Flurry of Misses become a Flurry of Crazy Damage.
Until you find that for every attack the monk takes the barbarian gives you one in turn only way harder and all of them at full BAB. You will find your monk to be dead before they finish that flurry.

What are you talking about? If they have Pummeling Style, by level 8-9 they'll have Pounce. And monks have far more attacks than any barbarian build I've seen.

Besides, a decent monk should have a high enough AC that the barbarian misses more often as not. The monk's main weakness is accuracy, which a low AC target fixes for them.

I believe the assumption was that Come and Get me was up and running meaning the Barbarian get's an attack of opportunity on the monk every time the monk attacks him. Because Aoo's resolve at full BAB it is unlikely that the monk can survive a Barbarians full attack + 4+ Attacks at full bab

Oh that. If we're talking weird class abilities - if the monk is dumb enough to stay in melee they might have issues (though the monk has 5-6 swings per round by then, so the Barb would be eating 24 more damage & probably not have enough DEX to AOO against all of them) but if we're talking class abilities then they can just go and Scorching Ray and use their speed to kite them. (I like Drunken Master infinite ki myself.) Or use Blood Crow Strike. Or use...

If they do stay in melee and fight defensively (no reason not to in this case), by 12 (when Come and Get Me can be taken) they'd have an AC somewhere in the 40's without breaking a sweat. I'd still probably give the edge to the monk, but one would have to do the math to be sure, and it'd vary by builds.


thejeff wrote:
Das Bier wrote:
Chess Pwn wrote:

For every 5 caster levels you possess beyond 5th, you gain a second ball of force.

so at lv10 that is shooting 2 of these blasts. at lv15 it's three 5d6 blasts. at 20 with intensified it's 4 10d6 blasts, or 40d6 blast, that empowers to 60d6 that is 7*30 = 210, quickened is 420 and that's not counting the extra damage per dice or maximized.

Um, intensified raises the damage cap.

The spell has NO damage cap. If you can reach caster level 40, you get 8 balls of force. Like, wow.

As I said, magic missile on Roids. At low level it SUCKS (does the same damage as magic missile until level 10), but at 10th damage outright doubles to equal a fireball, and then it just keeps scaling.

The spell has a damage cap.

Quote:
1d6 points of force damage per two caster levels (maximum 5d6)
That you get more balls of force doesn't change that.

You're reading it wrong. The damage is per ball of force, not per spell.

If you want to use logic...you're basically saying a level 3 individual target spell does equal damage to magic missile, a level 1 spell, and less then scorching Ray, a level 2 spell.

So...nope. You get one ball of force doing level/2 in d6 of damage, maximum of 5d6. At 10th, you get ANOTHER ball of force, doing the same damage, and repeats every 5 levels.

No idea how you got the idea that 5d6 was the max for the spell.


Das Bier wrote:
thejeff wrote:
Das Bier wrote:
Chess Pwn wrote:

For every 5 caster levels you possess beyond 5th, you gain a second ball of force.

so at lv10 that is shooting 2 of these blasts. at lv15 it's three 5d6 blasts. at 20 with intensified it's 4 10d6 blasts, or 40d6 blast, that empowers to 60d6 that is 7*30 = 210, quickened is 420 and that's not counting the extra damage per dice or maximized.

Um, intensified raises the damage cap.

The spell has NO damage cap. If you can reach caster level 40, you get 8 balls of force. Like, wow.

As I said, magic missile on Roids. At low level it SUCKS (does the same damage as magic missile until level 10), but at 10th damage outright doubles to equal a fireball, and then it just keeps scaling.

The spell has a damage cap.

Quote:
1d6 points of force damage per two caster levels (maximum 5d6)
That you get more balls of force doesn't change that.

You're reading it wrong. The damage is per ball of force, not per spell.

If you want to use logic...you're basically saying a level 3 individual target spell does equal damage to magic missile, a level 1 spell, and less then scorching Ray, a level 2 spell.

So...nope. You get one ball of force doing level/2 in d6 of damage, maximum of 5d6. At 10th, you get ANOTHER ball of force, doing the same damage, and repeats every 5 levels.

No idea how you got the idea that 5d6 was the max for the spell.

I didn't. The 5d6 damage cap is per ball of force. There is a maximum number of damage dice per ball. That is raised by Intensify Spell, because that's what Intensify spell does.

Intensify Spell wrote:
An intensified spell increases the maximum number of damage dice by 5 levels

Thus it goes from 4 balls capped at 5d6 each to 4 balls capped at 10d6 each.


Uh, no. Intensify doesn't raise the cap per ball. It raises the cap per spell. You're reading the feat wrong again. Since BB doesn't have a declared max # of balls or CL, it's useless here.

And it raises the cap by LEVELS, not by dice. Even if we were to use your interpretation, it would raise the limit to 15th level, which would be 7d6 per ball (15/2, rounding down).

Works the same for magic missile. Intensify raises MM to a 14th level cap instead of 9th, so 7 magic missiles.

You're actually thinking a +1 MM feat is more powerful then Maximize? You basically made it the equal of 3e's Twin Spell. That's not what is going on here. Even in my restricted loophole version, it'd be as Strong as Empower, which is +2 levels.


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I was scratching my head trying to remember why the name "Das Bier" sounded so familiar... Isn't that the evil cartel that uses its monopoly to artificially inflate the price of diamonds?


Das Bier wrote:

Uh, no. Intensify doesn't raise the cap per ball. It raises the cap per spell. You're reading the feat wrong again. Since BB doesn't have a declared max # of balls or CL, it's useless here.

And it raises the cap by LEVELS, not by dice. Even if we were to use your interpretation, it would raise the limit to 15th level, which would be 7d6 per ball (15/2, rounding down).

Works the same for magic missile. Intensify raises MM to a 14th level cap instead of 9th, so 7 magic missiles.

You're actually thinking a +1 MM feat is more powerful then Maximize? You basically made it the equal of 3e's Twin Spell. That's not what is going on here. Even in my restricted loophole version, it'd be as Strong as Empower, which is +2 levels.

Yeah, you're right about +5 levels, so it would be +2 dice/ball.

Near as I can tell, Intensify doesn't work for Magic Missile since Magic Missile doesn't have damage dice/level and Intensify doesn't affect number of effects, just the maximum number of damage dice. It's easy to think of them the same way, since they often work out the same, but they're mechanically different.


Charon's Little Helper wrote:
Firewarrior44 wrote:
Charon's Little Helper wrote:
Lab_Rat wrote:
Charon's Little Helper wrote:
MageHunter wrote:
This has intrigued me. What do DR builds do when they run into a blaster of sorts, as magic automatically bypasses DR?
They actually have more trouble against Clustered Shot or Pummeling Style as while they have good HP, they tend to dump AC, and that makes a monk's Flurry of Misses become a Flurry of Crazy Damage.
Until you find that for every attack the monk takes the barbarian gives you one in turn only way harder and all of them at full BAB. You will find your monk to be dead before they finish that flurry.

What are you talking about? If they have Pummeling Style, by level 8-9 they'll have Pounce. And monks have far more attacks than any barbarian build I've seen.

Besides, a decent monk should have a high enough AC that the barbarian misses more often as not. The monk's main weakness is accuracy, which a low AC target fixes for them.

I believe the assumption was that Come and Get me was up and running meaning the Barbarian get's an attack of opportunity on the monk every time the monk attacks him. Because Aoo's resolve at full BAB it is unlikely that the monk can survive a Barbarians full attack + 4+ Attacks at full bab

Oh that. If we're talking weird class abilities - if the monk is dumb enough to stay in melee they might have issues (though the monk has 5-6 swings per round by then, so the Barb would be eating 24 more damage & probably not have enough DEX to AOO against all of them) but if we're talking class abilities then they can just go and Scorching Ray and use their speed to kite them. (I like Drunken Master infinite ki myself.) Or use Blood Crow Strike. Or use...

If they do stay in melee and fight defensively (no reason not to in this case), by 12 (when Come and Get Me can be taken) they'd have an AC somewhere in the 40's without breaking a sweat. I'd still probably give the edge to the monk, but...

You're ignoring the fact that the barb is doing far more dmg per attack then the monk, AND he has damage reduction going, because he's 2h'ing.

In other words, you're throwing a UA attack, and he's throwing a 2h greatsword attack back at you.

If you flurry him, you're DEAD before you finish your flurry.

As for skirmishing...all he has to do is Come and Get Me and a Ready action. Possibly with Vital Strike. He gets a 2h attack, and another 2h AoO on you. He's not going to be behind you in damage, and still has DR.

Plus, Beast Totem nat armor means he's not lagging you in AC.

Also you can't skirmish someone who can move that fast. With boots, he has a 100' charge.

and seriously, if you can use Pummeling style...why can't the barb?

I REALLY don't see this ending well for a monk.


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Moral of the story. It's a fun build and loosing a couple of points of DR is not that big a deal. A lot of Invulnerable Rager Build, including mine, never even take it as there are way better things to do with a rage power/feat.

Sovereign Court

Das Bier wrote:

You're ignoring the fact that the barb is doing far more dmg per attack then the monk, AND he has damage reduction going, because he's 2h'ing.

In other words, you're throwing a UA attack, and he's throwing a 2h greatsword attack back at you.

If you flurry him, you're DEAD before you finish your flurry.

As for skirmishing...all he has to do is Come and Get Me and a Ready action. Possibly with Vital Strike. He gets a 2h attack, and another 2h AoO on you. He's not going to be behind you in damage, and still has DR.

Plus, Beast Totem nat armor means he's not lagging you in AC.

Also you can't skirmish someone who can move that fast. With boots, he has a 100' charge.

and seriously, if you can use Pummeling style...why can't the barb?

I REALLY don't see this ending well for a monk.

No. I'm not.

The DR means almost nothing against Pummeling Style.

You're ignoring the monk's AC in the 40's which will make the barbarian miss more often than not. How in the world does Come and Get Me and Readying an action do anything against Scorching Ray but increase the damage?

How does Pummeling do anything for the barbarian besides lower damage? He already has Pounce and the monk doesn't have significant DR.

As to AC - I specifically mentioned above that this is in the case of an Unbreakable Barbarian with a crappy AC. That was my entire point of bringing up monks and Pummeling Style. (Though no - he can't match the monk's AC - no one can.)

For skirmishing - there is no way for the barbarian to catch the monk 1v1 once they hit 12. The monk can just use Dimension Door to get away and use long range powers over & over. (assuming Drunken Master infinite ki)

I am NOT saying that a monk is overall better. Please actually read what I wrote before attacking it.


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Anyway... The reason people took Invulnerable Rager isn't because it's super powerful or because ofthe Improved DR Rage Power...

IR isn't particularly powerful... But it gains an useful ability in place of something that's useless 99% of the time. Trap Sense and Uncanny Dodge are such minor abilities that trading them for anything is almost always a good trade.

To put it succintly, the thought behind taking IR isn't "Wow! This is amazing!", it's "Eh... Why not?".

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber

Also, it just absolutely fit with my character patterned off The Russian.


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TriOmegaZero wrote:
Also, it just absolutely fit with my character patterned off The Russian.

I think it's a better fit than Uncanny Dodge and Trap Sense to nearly all Barbarian concepts.


Lemmy wrote:
TriOmegaZero wrote:
Also, it just absolutely fit with my character patterned off The Russian.
I think it's a better fit than Uncanny Dodge and Trap Sense to nearly all Barbarian concepts.

Though the classic Conan style barbarian probably fits Uncanny Dodge and Trap Sense better than DR.


Charon's Little Helper wrote:
Das Bier wrote:

You're ignoring the fact that the barb is doing far more dmg per attack then the monk, AND he has damage reduction going, because he's 2h'ing.

In other words, you're throwing a UA attack, and he's throwing a 2h greatsword attack back at you.

If you flurry him, you're DEAD before you finish your flurry.

As for skirmishing...all he has to do is Come and Get Me and a Ready action. Possibly with Vital Strike. He gets a 2h attack, and another 2h AoO on you. He's not going to be behind you in damage, and still has DR.

Plus, Beast Totem nat armor means he's not lagging you in AC.

Also you can't skirmish someone who can move that fast. With boots, he has a 100' charge.

and seriously, if you can use Pummeling style...why can't the barb?

I REALLY don't see this ending well for a monk.

No. I'm not.

The DR means almost nothing against Pummeling Style.

You're ignoring the monk's AC in the 40's which will make the barbarian miss more often than not. How in the world does Come and Get Me and Readying an action do anything against Scorching Ray but increase the damage?

How does Pummeling do anything for the barbarian besides lower damage? He already has Pounce and the monk doesn't have significant DR.

As to AC - I specifically mentioned above that this is in the case of an Unbreakable Barbarian with a crappy AC. That was my entire point of bringing up monks and Pummeling Style. (Though no - he can't match the monk's AC - no one can.)

For skirmishing - there is no way for the barbarian to catch the monk 1v1 once they hit 12. The monk can just use Dimension Door to get away and use long range powers over & over. (assuming Drunken Master infinite ki)

I am NOT saying that a monk is overall better. Please actually read what I wrote before attacking it.

Okay, so we're talking 3 different styles of attacks, since you can't flurry a scorching ray, and you can't flurry a Pummelling Blow, and you can otherwise flurry.

If you flurry with a CAGM barbarian, he's going to kill you.
If you use Pumelling blow, you're exchanging a lesser attack multiplied by 2-3x against a greater attack at maximum BAB x 2. And then on his turn he hits you with a full attack as follow up. I respectfully posit that you are dead.

If you snipe scorching rays, let's just say he doesn't have fire resistance, 15 pts of which would totally shut down that technique, since damage from the rays hits resistance independently. He pops a potion and you're doing 5 pts a ray on average. If he knows you're his opponent...a potion basically takes care of you.
He can also do the run action for 200' a round, while you are limited to a single move while casting. He WILL catch you. You can't Dimension Door on his turn, so if he reaches you, you're still going to eat attacks and a LOT of damage. I think you qualify for Witch Hunter damage extras, now?

you need line of sight to even hit him. All he has to do is find some cover or concealment and wait for you to approach within 100'. Unless you are in some very, very strange wide open room where you can snipe him from 800' away or something, you're going to get one or two shots and he's simply going to hunt cover. You probably even traded away deflect arrows and he can snipe back at you.

Maybe he even drinks a potion of invisibility just to annoy you.

Your AC can be high, but so can his, and he's a full martial, not 3/4, with more innate bonuses to hit you don't have. You're going to be popping ki to up your AC, and eventually you're going to run out. And you can't fight defensively while using a SLA, you have to attack for that to work.

Like I said, I don't see this ending well for the monk, unless you refuse to allow the barbarian to play smart, instead of just sitting there and soaking attacks like a doofus while the monk plays smart.

Sovereign Court

Das Bier wrote:
Your AC can be high, but so can his, and he's a full martial, not 3/4, with more innate bonuses to hit you don't have. You're going to be popping ki to up your AC, and eventually you're going to run out. And you can't fight defensively while using a SLA, you have to attack for that to work.

Scorching Ray & Blood Crow Strike both use attack rolls.

Das Bier wrote:
He can also do the run action for 200' a round, while you are limited to a single move while casting. He WILL catch you.

If he has to run to catch the monk, that accomplishes nothing since they can't attack on the same turn that they run. If there is any sort of terrain on the battlefield it is only harder for the barbarian to catch the monk.

Das Bier wrote:
Okay, so we're talking 3 different styles of attacks, since you can't flurry a scorching ray, and you can't flurry a Pummelling Blow, and you can otherwise flurry.

Yes - the monk has options. (Though I don't know why you think that flurry & Pummeling are somehow different.)

Das Bier wrote:
you need line of sight to even hit him. All he has to do is find some cover or concealment and wait for you to approach within 100'. Unless you are in some very, very strange wide open room where you can snipe him from 800' away or something, you're going to get one or two shots and he's simply going to hunt cover. You probably even traded away deflect arrows and he can snipe back at you.

If the barbarian tries the cat & mouse game he's already lost. The monk could consistently sneak up on him (the monk's Dex is going to be higher than the barb's Wis - plus distance/concealment/cover penalties), hit him with a ranged attack in the surprise round while behind cover (no charge lane) and then run away again. A true archer would be an entirely different build rather than this barbarian melee build. (unlike a decent monk who has both melee & qinggong ranged powers - which is what I like about drunken masters - they're inherently pretty decent switch-hitters)


Yes, it does. As your CL goes up, you get more rays. It stops at 3 rays. With Intensify, it stops at 4 rays.

BB, your CL determines how many globes you get...it just doesn't have a CAP on the globes, so Intensify would be useless for this spell.

All in your interpretation, I guess.


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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

Why has this thread turned into some weird contest between Schrodinger's monk and Schrodinger's barbarian? I'm not sure how that manages to prove anything one way or the other.

Quote:
Yes, it does. As your CL goes up, you get more rays. It stops at 3 rays. With Intensify, it stops at 4 rays.

Intensify doesn't work on Scorching Ray. It only increases the maximum number of damage dice and Scorching Ray doesn't have scaling damage dice.

Grand Lodge

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Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber
Das Bier wrote:
Yes, it does. As your CL goes up, you get more rays. It stops at 3 rays. With Intensify, it stops at 4 rays.

That has yet to be proven. CL-scaling of rays is not synonymous with CL-scaling of damage barring developer clarification. One does result in the other, but the calculation is "+CL=+ray" instead of "+CL=+damage" like Battering Blast, Ear-Piercing Scream, Fireball, etc. Until you get a FAQ to back you up, I stand by the statement 'Magic Missile and Scorching Ray are not valid for Intensify Spell'.


Except that Intensify just doesn't give you more globes, not because it's not capped, but because that's not what Intensify does. It raises the cap on damage dice. Not the cap on number of rays, missiles or force spheres.

Rays aren't damage dice, even though you do more damage with more rays.

The damage dice for each Globe of BB are capped. That's what gets raised with Intensify. Yeah, it's crazy good for this particular spell. That's the kind of interaction that you're supposed to look for in PF, isn't it? Combinations of abilities that synergize extra well.


Charon's Little Helper wrote:
Das Bier wrote:
Your AC can be high, but so can his, and he's a full martial, not 3/4, with more innate bonuses to hit you don't have. You're going to be popping ki to up your AC, and eventually you're going to run out. And you can't fight defensively while using a SLA, you have to attack for that to work.

Scorching Ray & Blood Crow Strike both use attack rolls.

Das Bier wrote:
He can also do the run action for 200' a round, while you are limited to a single move while casting. He WILL catch you.

If he has to run to catch the monk, that accomplishes nothing since they can't attack on the same turn that they run. If there is any sort of terrain on the battlefield it is only harder for the barbarian to catch the monk.

Das Bier wrote:
Okay, so we're talking 3 different styles of attacks, since you can't flurry a scorching ray, and you can't flurry a Pummelling Blow, and you can otherwise flurry.

Yes - the monk has options. (Though I don't know why you think that flurry & Pummeling are somehow different.)

Das Bier wrote:
you need line of sight to even hit him. All he has to do is find some cover or concealment and wait for you to approach within 100'. Unless you are in some very, very strange wide open room where you can snipe him from 800' away or something, you're going to get one or two shots and he's simply going to hunt cover. You probably even traded away deflect arrows and he can snipe back at you.
If the barbarian tries the cat & mouse game he's already lost. The monk could consistently sneak up on him, hit him with a ranged attack in the surprise round while behind cover (no charge lane) and then run away again.

Read Defensive Fighting. You have to attack with a melee weapon. It doesn't work with ranged attacks, including spells. I had one of the rules guru's get rather irked at me because I wasn't reading the paragraph.

Okay, he runs 200' up right next to you. If you retreat so you can attack, he gets the AoO. Maybe he grapples you with strength surge. Maybe he trips you with it. Maybe he just hits you. Maybe you full attack him, and he kills you on your turn. If you withdraw, you can't scorching Ray, and you'll be inside his charge range. If you run, you can't scorching ray. You can't even double move without drawing an AoO!

The monk has fewer options then he thinks he does, as most of them simply will not work.

You're going to 'the barb is stupid' again. The monk has no class bonuses to stealth. The barb can certainly take perception, and take stealth to hide as well. He can restrict sight lanes down to very short distances. You can't move, shoot a spell, and move again without taking specific feats to do so. The whole 'creep and snipe' thing, the barb can do, too...or he can simply run away while the monk is creeping around, and lose him. Concentration isn't a class effect for you, so you can't use your SLA's defensively, so you can't cast in combat, either.

I know you're trying to schroedinger options in, man, but I just don't think things are going to fall out like you want them to.


TriOmegaZero wrote:
Das Bier wrote:
Yes, it does. As your CL goes up, you get more rays. It stops at 3 rays. With Intensify, it stops at 4 rays.
That has yet to be proven. CL-scaling of rays is not synonymous with CL-scaling of damage barring developer clarification. One does result in the other, but the calculation is "+CL=+ray" instead of "+CL=+damage" like Battering Blast, Ear-Piercing Scream, Fireball, etc. Until you get a FAQ to back you up, I stand by the statement 'Magic Missile and Scorching Ray are not valid for Intensify Spell'.

Yeah, I'll wait on that FAQ, too, and that's the interpretation I'll use until it comes. I don't like overpowering spells like that...BB is nice enough on its own it doesn't need that interpretation to do more.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber

I would just ban Intensify Spell, but whatever works for you.

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