Why do so many people say APs are 'meant' to be played at 15 point buy?


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Was this stated by a developer somewhere or something to that effect? 15 seems awfully low for some of the (MAD) classes in the game while being just fine for others (the SAD classes).


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James Jacobs

Also here

And here

Although he prefers 20-point-buy to make the PCs more heroic

Liberty's Edge

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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

It's also strongly implied by the fact that the pregens that came with the APs (back when they included pregens...) were 15-point characters.


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Or that basically every NPC in the APs is built with a 15 point buy.


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And 15 points is "Standard Fantasy".


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This is super simple.

Paizo used 15 pt buy because they mistakenly calculated that it was an accurate reflection of 4d6 drop 1.

Mark Seifter proved it wasn't, joined the company, and PFS uses 20.

Liberty's Edge

Melkiador wrote:
Or that basically every NPC in the APs is built with a 15 point buy.

I thought they actually used the basic and heroic NPC stat array. Which works out to a 15 point buy in the case of heroic, but is a specific set of stats that limit strength and weaknesses, so you'll never see a 2nd level sorcerer with 18 charisma.


Deighton Thrane wrote:
Melkiador wrote:
Or that basically every NPC in the APs is built with a 15 point buy.
I thought they actually used the basic and heroic NPC stat array. Which works out to a 15 point buy in the case of heroic, but is a specific set of stats that limit strength and weaknesses, so you'll never see a 2nd level sorcerer with 18 charisma.

It may be a 15 point array, but it still seems to be 15 point. Although it only seems to get used on NPCs with class levels. The NPC classes get even worse arrays.

Dark Archive

I like 15 PB.


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Officially it should be 15, but everyone GM I know uses 20 or something that is not 15 point buy.


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NenkotaMoon wrote:
I like 15 PB.

I don't!

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IME 15 points is sufficient to play any class effectively. Heck, I've seen a 7 PB (rolled stats) character survive an entire AP without issues.

I always figured PFS used 20 to make it a little easier since you aren't guaranteed even a vaguely balanced party, so individuals are slightly stronger to compensate.

Dark Archive

Johnnycat93 wrote:
NenkotaMoon wrote:
I like 15 PB.
I don't!

BLASPHEMY


While I like 20 point buy better for character generation, if a party for an AP goes past 4 players, I'd probably stick with 15 point buy.


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NenkotaMoon wrote:
Johnnycat93 wrote:
NenkotaMoon wrote:
I like 15 PB.
I don't!
BLASPHEMY

How do you even sleep at night?

Dark Archive

Johnnycat93 wrote:
NenkotaMoon wrote:
Johnnycat93 wrote:
NenkotaMoon wrote:
I like 15 PB.
I don't!
BLASPHEMY
How do you even sleep at night?

Soundly.

Shadow Lodge

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The sleep of babes and serial killers.

Dark Archive

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TOZ wrote:
The sleep of babes and serial killers.

Don't let me get out my Anklebiter alias.


Well that explains why we've been boot-stomping RotRL so far with our 4d6 stat-blocks (I think it averages out somewhere in the 30 buy range for the stats we all have). Although we're just working our way through Thistletop, maybe it gets tougher after this.

The AP seems to level up, or at least recommends it, a little fast as I can tell too.

Liberty's Edge

Melkiador wrote:
Deighton Thrane wrote:
Melkiador wrote:
Or that basically every NPC in the APs is built with a 15 point buy.
I thought they actually used the basic and heroic NPC stat array. Which works out to a 15 point buy in the case of heroic, but is a specific set of stats that limit strength and weaknesses, so you'll never see a 2nd level sorcerer with 18 charisma.
It may be a 15 point array, but it still seems to be 15 point. Although it only seems to get used on NPCs with class levels. The NPC classes get even worse arrays.

Yes, NPCs with PC class levels get heroic stat array (15,14,13,12,10,08). NPCs with NPC class levels get the basic stat array (13,12,11,10,09,08).

Scarab Sages

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15 point buy does nothing to limit SAD characters (casters) and makes playing a MAD character (martial) more difficult.

Grand Lodge RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

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Deighton Thrane wrote:
Yes, NPCs with PC classes get heroic stat array (15,14,13,12,10,08). NPCs with NPC classes get the basic stat array (13,12,11,10,09,08).

Which, when you think about the non-human races' ability to have functional societies despite putting racial penalties on top of those arrays, tells you interesting things about what "dump stats" translate to in-world.


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Imbicatus wrote:
15 point buy does nothing to limit SAD characters (casters) and makes playing a MAD character (martial) more difficult.

It doesn't do "nothing" to limit SAD classes. Sad classes still deeply want other stats. It's just not as high of a priority. For instance, a wizard with a low dexterity and constitution isn't going to live very long with his low hit points.


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Melkiador wrote:
Imbicatus wrote:
15 point buy does nothing to limit SAD characters (casters) and makes playing a MAD character (martial) more difficult.
It doesn't do "nothing" to limit SAD classes. Sad classes still deeply want other stats. It's just not as high of a priority. For instance, a wizard with a low dexterity and constitution isn't going to live very long with his low hit points.

And a fighter's career will be even shorter. The point being that a low-point buy harms martials to a larger degree than casters.

Scarab Sages

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Melkiador wrote:
Imbicatus wrote:
15 point buy does nothing to limit SAD characters (casters) and makes playing a MAD character (martial) more difficult.
It doesn't do "nothing" to limit SAD classes. Sad classes still deeply want other stats. It's just not as high of a priority. For instance, a wizard with a low dexterity and constitution isn't going to live very long with his low hit points.

A human wizard with 15 point buy can have the following array:

STR 9
Dex 14
Con 14
Int 18
WIS 10
Cha 7

They are very survivable and still have an 18 casting stat.


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Johnnycat93 wrote:
And a fighter's career will be even shorter. The point being that a low-point buy harms martials to a larger degree than casters.

The fighter has a higher hit die and heavy armor to help compensate for that. But really, the fighter has it relatively good, as he's basically SAD too. A really MAD class is something like a monk or cleric.


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Imbicatus wrote:

A human wizard with 15 point buy can have the following array:

STR 9
Dex 14
Con 14
Int 18
WIS 10
Cha 7

They are very survivable and still have an 18 casting stat.

And the fighter can have something like:

STR 18
Dex 12
Con 14
Int 10
WIS 12
Cha 7

That's also pretty survivable.


Melkiador wrote:
Johnnycat93 wrote:
And a fighter's career will be even shorter. The point being that a low-point buy harms martials to a larger degree than casters.
The fighter has a higher hit die and heavy armor to help compensate for that. But really, the fighter has it relatively good, as he's basically SAD too. A really MAD class is something like a monk or cleric.

This is a subject that has been beaten to death already, so broad strokes:

Good luck affording heavy armor at 1st level. Fighter and wizard both need 3 stats at least, and fighter gets less out of them then they invest.

15 pt-buy mandates optimization to survive. It chokes out character variety.


Johnnycat93 wrote:
Good luck affording heavy armor at 1st level. Fighter and wizard both need 3 stats at least, and fighter gets less out of him then they invest.

At first level, the fighter wears lighter armors, but then the wizard doesn't get all day mage armor either.

And that's assuming a strength fighter. The Dex fighter is pretty good at being SAD.


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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

I've played a 5PB wizard pretty comfortably before. Could build a 0PB wizard that's pretty damn effective too.

Would not want to do that with a fighter though.

Grand Lodge RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

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Melkiador wrote:
Imbicatus wrote:
15 point buy does nothing to limit SAD characters (casters) and makes playing a MAD character (martial) more difficult.
It doesn't do "nothing" to limit SAD classes. Sad classes still deeply want other stats. It's just not as high of a priority. For instance, a wizard with a low dexterity and constitution isn't going to live very long with his low hit points.

But that's the thing: the wizard won't have such low DEX/CON compared to the martial of the same point buy.

15pt Human Wizard:
STR 7
DEX 14
CON 14
INT 17(+2 racial)
WIS 10
CHA 7

15pt Human Fighter:
STR 16(+2 racial)
DEX 12
CON 14
INT 10
WIS 12
CHA 7

See how they've got the same CON? Plus, since the wizard has more skill points, it's easier for him to put his FCB into HP. And since he's less reliant on feat trees to be effective (EDIT: God forbid the 15pt fighter needs 13 INT for Combat Expertise.), he can more easily spare his human bonus feat on Toughness.

So the human fighter has 12-13 HP (depending on FCB), while the human wizard can easily have 12 HP. The fighter gains 8-9 HP/level, and the wizard gains 8 HP/level. So already, the wizard is virtually (or perhaps even literally) on par with the fighter for HP.

But wait, there's more! The wizard has item crafting as a built-in class feature, so he can get his CON belt at half price (and on-demand). And since he's not trying to split that magic item slot with STR like the fighter is, the price gap just gets bigger and bigger. So the wizard's CON is going to jump sooner and faster than the fighter's. You can mitigate the crafting disparity if they're in the same party together, but there's still the whole "the wizard's +4 CON belt is a lot cheaper than the fighter's +4 STR/CON belt" issue.

So, a Pathfinder wizard starts with HP similar to a fighter, and easily catches up or even passes him as levels rise.

Pathfinder is not a system that supports the "squishy wizard" trope. Sorry.


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Melkiador wrote:
Johnnycat93 wrote:
Good luck affording heavy armor at 1st level. Fighter and wizard both need 3 stats at least, and fighter gets less out of him then they invest.
At first level, the fighter wears lighter armors, but then the wizard doesn't get all day mage armor either.

What he does get is a bunch of high-DC auto-win spells. The fighter noticeably lacks that in favor of, what, 4 AC?

Scarab Sages

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Johnnycat93 wrote:
Melkiador wrote:
Johnnycat93 wrote:
Good luck affording heavy armor at 1st level. Fighter and wizard both need 3 stats at least, and fighter gets less out of him then they invest.
At first level, the fighter wears lighter armors, but then the wizard doesn't get all day mage armor either.
What he does get is a bunch of high-DC auto-win spells. The fighter noticeably lacks that in favor of, what, 4 AC?

3 AC. The Wizard is wearing a Haramaki.


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Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

Aaaand there it went. I've not been here long, but I knew where this thread was heading! :)

Anyway, our group always plays 25 PB. MOST of my folks are nice enough to not min/max (one guy built his bard with 14, 16, 14, 14, 12, 13), though I do have a 5 STR halfling in the group. I "suggested" he get a heavyload belt when he encumbered himself with a new-found dagger.

I can't recall who said it, but 25 PB works out to 15 PB with a +1 to every stat. Of course, that's not what anyone implements, but it helps if you want to balance NPCs.


I don't think players need more than 15 PB in APs. Further, lower stats are more interesting as a challenge for a player, reduce the gap between ambitious and relaxed players and are less likely to trivialize (borify*) encounters. *I am aware that's not an English word.

Full casters might profit from it, but at the very first levels they have a harder life than martials anyway. On the long run starting stats matter less and less, and you can do more and more to reduce imbalances.


yeah APs are adventures that mostly operate on "easy setting". 15 PB for most groups really won't heavily impact their ability to play through the path.


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What APs are you talking about? I ran several of them and all I got were dead PCs.

Liberty's Edge

Also, 20 point buys don't really change the power ceiling very much, you can still only take a max of 18 in an ability score*, no matter the points used. It does allow for players to fill more than the basic stats needed to function, and allows classes like monk and cleric to function as well classes like brawler and oracle.

Edit - *Pre racial modifiers.

Paizo Employee Design Manager

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Secret Wizard wrote:
What APs are you talking about? I ran several of them and all I got were dead PCs.

Group composition and the particular AP can make a real difference. The first parts of Jade Regent and Rise of the Runelords have some encounters that can suck hard if you don't have a positive energy channeler but are a cakewalk if you do. Reign of Winter is hellish when your GM makes full use of the environmental hazards...

By and large though, party composition and GM experience will always be way larger impacts than point buy. I, personally, prefer 20-25 point buys, largely because I feel like you end up with a better balanced and more heroic party with those buys. 15 I reserve for tables of experienced players or parties with 6+ players.

Grand Lodge

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Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Pathfinder Accessories, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Ssalarn wrote:
Reign of Winter is hellish when your GM makes full use of the environmental hazards...

Less so when you have a winter oracle. :)


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And then there's Carrion Crown, where book one can literally eat up and spit out any party that doesn't pack a channeler, and even some who do.


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mourge40k wrote:
And then there's Carrion Crown, where book one can literally eat up and spit out any party that doesn't pack a channeler, and even some who do.

You need someone to cast Remove Curse on that book, then.

Honestly, I think I like the idea of 20 points not for 'more power' but instead 'less dump'. Aside from an extreme concept I had (the world's stupidest elf -- who would have 9 Int anyway), I kind'a shy away from pushing stats too low, and really dread seeing those 7s and 8s. I can understand the idea of 'flawed characters', but I guess I'm leery of going too far under, I guess.


Certain classes and concepts just cannot be done on 15 point buy, or at best can be done only with hard dumping. MAD classes (most 6/9 casters and switch-hitting martials) really suffer from this. On the other hand, 20 point buy seems to let me build most of what I want (and the tiny remainder is probablys stuff that shouldn't be possible to build, or at least not without severe flaws, whereas at 15 point buy an awful lot of things have serious flaws or are even impossible). I haven't played in PFS myself, but I'd say they'ree onto something. Just upgrade the NPCs correspondingly for 20 point buy, and things should stay balanced.


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Johnnycat93 wrote:
15 pt-buy mandates optimization to survive. It chokes out character variety.

No, 15 point buy mandates nothing. Players thinking they need to be optimised to survive an AP chokes out character variety. I've run Iron Gods on 15 point buy, Hell's Rebels on the heroic stat array (I had 2 new players, so I wanted to make character creation easier for them) and for Hell's Vengeance I'll go back to 15 point buy.

In most APs there are only a handful of really tough encounters (mostly at the end of chapters), so I don't see a reason to give my players 20 point buy. The only character deaths I had can grouped into 2 categories:

- I have a string of great rolls, including criticals (and over the span of 3 APs that cost 2 PCs their lives)
- They plan badly or coordinate their fight badly, which results often in a weaker PC being isolated from the rest

So even on a heroic stat array my group is doing just fine, even though it is far from optimal for most builds, which tells me that APs aren't designed for min/max groups.

Jiggy wrote:
Melkiador wrote:
Imbicatus wrote:
15 point buy does nothing to limit SAD characters (casters) and makes playing a MAD character (martial) more difficult.
It doesn't do "nothing" to limit SAD classes. Sad classes still deeply want other stats. It's just not as high of a priority. For instance, a wizard with a low dexterity and constitution isn't going to live very long with his low hit points.

But that's the thing: the wizard won't have such low DEX/CON compared to the martial of the same point buy.

15pt Human Wizard:
STR 7
DEX 14
CON 14
INT 17(+2 racial)
WIS 10
CHA 7

15pt Human Fighter:
STR 16(+2 racial)
DEX 12
CON 14
INT 10
WIS 12
CHA 7

See how they've got the same CON? Plus, since the wizard has more skill points, it's easier for him to put his FCB into HP. And since he's less reliant on feat trees to be effective (EDIT: God forbid the 15pt fighter needs 13 INT for Combat Expertise.), he can more easily spare his human bonus feat on Toughness.

So the human fighter has 12-13 HP (depending on FCB), while the human wizard can easily have 12 HP. The fighter gains 8-9 HP/level, and the wizard gains 8 HP/level. So already, the wizard is virtually (or perhaps even literally) on par with the fighter for HP.

But wait, there's more! The wizard has item crafting as a built-in class feature, so he can get his CON belt at half price (and on-demand). And since he's not trying to split that magic item slot with STR like the fighter is, the price gap just gets bigger and bigger. So the wizard's CON is going to jump sooner and faster than the fighter's. You can mitigate the crafting disparity if they're in the same party together, but there's still the whole "the wizard's +4 CON belt is a lot cheaper than the fighter's +4 STR/CON belt" issue.

So, a Pathfinder wizard starts with HP similar to a fighter, and easily catches up or even passes him as levels rise.

Pathfinder is not a system that supports the "squishy wizard" trope. Sorry.

You just demonstrated that wizards are a better class than fighters, and playing on a 15 point buy or 20 point buy won't change that. You can argue that on a 20 point buy fighters could get a bit of Int to get more skills, but if you are optimising he will put them into Con, to fill his role better etc.

In my opinion, the problem isn't point buy, but comparing probably the worst class in the game with one of the best. I've always wondered why the fighter didn't get a unchained makeover, like some other weaker classes. Throwing a bunch of feats at a fighter just doesn't give him any versatility or makes up for the lack of skills.

Paizo Employee Design Manager

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Gratz wrote:
Johnnycat93 wrote:
15 pt-buy mandates optimization to survive. It chokes out character variety.

No, 15 point buy mandates nothing. Players thinking they need to be optimised to survive an AP chokes out character variety. I've run Iron Gods on 15 point buy, Hell's Rebels on the heroic stat array (I had 2 new players, so I wanted to make character creation easier for them) and for Hell's Vengeance I'll go back to 15 point buy.

In most APs there are only a handful of really tough encounters (mostly at the end of chapters), so I don't see a reason to give my players 20 point buy. The only character deaths I had can grouped into 2 categories:

- I have a string of great rolls, including crits (and over the span of 3 APs, that cost 2 PCs their lives)
- They plan badly or coordinate their fight badly, which results often in a weaker PC being isolated from the rest

So even on a heroic stat array my group is doing just fine, even tough it is far from optimal for most builds, which tells me that APs aren't designed for min/max groups.

I think saying that it chokes character variety is fair. There are some options that just don't come together on a 15 point buy. It also hurts generalists like the Inquisitor and Bard, making it harder to run groups of "Tier 3's". Alchemist, Ninja, Bard, Inquisitor is perfectly viable in a 20 point game, but might be more of a stretch in a 15 point buy game, so you could arguably say that that's another way 15 point buy limits character variety. Someone who may have chosen a bard may instead feel compelled to play a Cleric or Oracle so the party has sufficient healing since the Inquisitor and Alchemist already in the party can't spread their own magic as far.

That being said, the game is actually fundamentally designed in the party's favor. It's literally stacked in the group's favor, which is why most groups can still be reasonably expected to win even if they're using the terrible pregen iconics. Nothing about the basic parameters of the game requires you to have anything resembling the optimization you frequently see people discussing on these boards.


Ssalarn wrote:
Gratz wrote:
Johnnycat93 wrote:
15 pt-buy mandates optimization to survive. It chokes out character variety.

No, 15 point buy mandates nothing. Players thinking they need to be optimised to survive an AP chokes out character variety. I've run Iron Gods on 15 point buy, Hell's Rebels on the heroic stat array (I had 2 new players, so I wanted to make character creation easier for them) and for Hell's Vengeance I'll go back to 15 point buy.

In most APs there are only a handful of really tough encounters (mostly at the end of chapters), so I don't see a reason to give my players 20 point buy. The only character deaths I had can grouped into 2 categories:

- I have a string of great rolls, including crits (and over the span of 3 APs, that cost 2 PCs their lives)
- They plan badly or coordinate their fight badly, which results often in a weaker PC being isolated from the rest

So even on a heroic stat array my group is doing just fine, even tough it is far from optimal for most builds, which tells me that APs aren't designed for min/max groups.

I think saying that it chokes character variety is fair. There are some options that just don't come together on a 15 point buy. It also hurts generalists like the Inquisitor and Bard, making it harder to run groups of "Tier 3's". Alchemist, Ninja, Bard, Inquisitor is perfectly viable in a 20 point game, but might be more of a stretch in a 15 point buy game, so you could arguably say that that's another way 15 point buy limits character variety. Someone who may have chosen a bard may instead feel compelled to play a Cleric or Oracle so the party has sufficient healing since the Inquisitor and Alchemist already in the party can't spread their own magic as far.

That being said, the game is actually fundamentally designed in the party's favor. It's literally stacked in the group's favor, which is why most groups can still be reasonably expected to win even if they're using the terrible pregen iconics. Nothing about the basic...

You've just described my Hell's Rebels party (Rogue, Bard, Investigator, Sacred Fist and Ranger), a bunch of Tier 3 classes, that do just fine. I'm sorry in theory I can totally agree with the 20 vs. 15 argument, but my experience over 3 APs tells me a different story.

Paizo Employee Design Manager

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Gratz wrote:
You've just described my Hell's Rebels party (Rogue, Bard, Investigator, Sacred Fist and Ranger), a bunch of Tier 3 classes, that do just fine. I'm sorry in theory I can totally agree with the 20 vs. 15 argument, but my experience over 3 APs tells me a different story.

Well, for one thing you're running a 5 man group. APs are balanced around a 4 man group, so the party's already going to have an easier time of it. With 5 players, pretty much all of whom should have some facility with wands, you don't really need a channeler or controller as much as you might in a smaller group. 1 additional character is bringing 25% more resources and action economy than the AP expects, so using a 15 point buy is actually probably not a bad idea, unless you want to beef up the encounters.

There's also the possibility that you don't swing at your players with the AP's full force. It's pretty rare for me to see a GM who actually remembers all the tools at their disposal in a fight, and even some of those will "softball" things on the fly to keep the party intact. I can't say that that's happening with your group, just that there are so many variables that anecdotal evidence isn't necessarily super meaningful to a wider point.


Ssalarn wrote:
Gratz wrote:
You've just described my Hell's Rebels party (Rogue, Bard, Investigator, Sacred Fist and Ranger), a bunch of Tier 3 classes, that do just fine. I'm sorry in theory I can totally agree with the 20 vs. 15 argument, but my experience over 3 APs tells me a different story.

Well, for one thing you're running a 5 man group. APs are balanced around a 4 man group, so the party's already going to have an easier time of it. With 5 players, pretty much all of whom should have some facility with wands, you don't really need a channeler or controller as much as you might in a smaller group. 1 additional character is bringing 25% more resources and action economy than the AP expects, so using a 15 point buy is actually probably not a bad idea, unless you want to beef up the encounters.

There's also the possibility that you don't swing at your players with the AP's full force. It's pretty rare for me to see a GM who actually remembers all the tools at their disposal in a fight, and even some of those will "softball" things on the fly to keep the party intact. I can't say that that's happening with your group, just that there are so many variables that anecdotal evidence isn't necessarily super meaningful to a wider point.

I should have mentioned that we rarely play as 5. Due to scheduling, we play most of the time with 4 players or even with 3. I think I have run more session with 3 players, than with 5. I only insist that all players are there for the first session and the last few (and some other highlights).

As far as "the remembering of all of the tools" goes, I'm definitely guilty of that. It's hard remembering all nooks and crannies of encounters of encounters I haven't designed, that's why I love to throw in my own ideas every few sessions and for the most part those are more challenging for the party, as I design them around their strengths and weaknesses.

Everyone in this thread is bringing up anecdotal evidence or hypotheticals, so if we are not considering those, than there is no discussion to be had.


Johnnycat93 wrote:
15 pt-buy mandates optimization to survive.

The difference between a 15 pt buy and a 20 pt buy is often a +1 bonus on one or two types of checks. That is not a large difference in my book.

Paizo Employee Design Manager

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Gratz wrote:

I should have mentioned that we rarely play as 5. Due to scheduling, we play most of the time with 4 players or even with 3. I think I have run more session with 3 players, than with 5. I only insist that all players are there for the first session and the last few (and some other highlights).

As far as "the remembering of all of the tools" goes, I'm definitely guilty of that. It's hard remembering all nooks and crannies of encounters of encounters I haven't designed, that's why I love to throw in my own ideas every few sessions and for the most part those are more challenging for the party, as I design them around their strengths and weaknesses.
Everyone in this thread is bringing up anecdotal evidence or hypotheticals, so don't use that argument to marginalise my points.

Most people I noticed were using comparative math discussing how point buys affect SAD v. MAD characters. Anecdotal "we played it on 15 and it was fine" just doesn't contribute much, especially in the context that you've just said you routinely forget pieces of the encounter, substitute your own ideas, and tailor encounters to the group. That doesn't actual speak to the wider discussion of how a 15 point buy affects an AP beyond saying that you make a 15 point buy work with your own modifications.

Having said that, I did also note that the APs don't require a 20 point buy or an optimized party at all, so there's nothing wrong with a 15 point buy standard; you should be able to tackle most APs just fine. Some groups may need to adjust though, and I know that many people, including the people who write the APs use a 20 point buy most of the time.

hogarth wrote:
Johnnycat93 wrote:
15 pt-buy mandates optimization to survive.
The difference between a 15 pt buy and a 20 pt buy is often a +1 bonus on one or two types of checks. That is not a large difference in my book.

It can be a lot more than that though. Those 5 extra points could be the difference between whether or not a Fighter can take Combat Expertise or the bravery feats from Ultimate Intrigue (or even both). It could be the difference between whether or not a two-weapon fighter can qualify for Power Attack during the first 5 levels of the game. It could make the difference between whether or not a Paladin or Ranger's spellcasting comes online at 4th or 5th level. There are any number of other small but super critical differences those 5 points can make, and a lot of those differences will affect MAD classes drastically more than SAD ones.

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