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How are you healing the party with negative channels?
1.) Not that I've seen. As a player, I'd try to convince my GM to allow daywalker to suppress it, especially since the flavor text mentions looking at the lich, and Daywalker alters the lich's look.
2.) I am unfamiliar with that ritual, nor do I have much info on making liches for PCs; they're mostly a GM thing.
3.) Depends a lot on the game. If it's an evil game or if there's a very strong reason for the rest of the party to work with a lich, it can work.
It could also make the lich PC markedly stronger than the rest of the PCs, if there is no kind of compensation. Since a lich's CR is +2 on top of its regular, the rest of the party members would each be a CR 8, while the lich would be a CR 10 (using your level 8 class and assuming you each have appropriate wealth by level).
4.) Don't get caught by the general population? Especially those good, holy types?
5.) As above, those templates are both strong. If the rest of the party isn't getting an equivalent template or something to balance the scales, I'd recommend having the GM keep you behind in levels. a +2 CR template like lich or vampire is theoretically equal in power to gaining 2 levels in a class. Maybe the GM could give you a few of the template's abilities and powers after one level and the rest for the second level.
Or maybe do a CR+1 template like zombie lord or skeletal champion.
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How are you healing the party with negative channels?
1.) Not that I've seen. As a player, I'd try to convince my GM to allow daywalker to suppress it, especially since the flavor text mentions looking at the lich, and Daywalker alters the lich's look.
2.) I am unfamiliar with that ritual, nor do I have much info on making liches for PCs; they're mostly a GM thing.
3.) Depends a lot on the game. If it's an evil game or if there's a very strong reason for the rest of the party to work with a lich, it can work.
It could also make the lich PC markedly stronger than the rest of the PCs, if there is no kind of compensation. Since a lich's CR is +2 on top of its regular, the rest of the party members would each be a CR 8, while the lich would be a CR 10 (using your level 8 class and assuming you each have appropriate wealth by level).4.) Don't get caught by the general population? Especially those good, holy types?
5.) As above, those templates are both strong. If the rest of the party isn't getting an equivalent template or something to balance the scales, I'd recommend having the GM keep you behind in levels. a +2 CR template like lich or vampire is theoretically equal in power to gaining 2 levels in a class. Maybe the GM could give you a few of the template's abilities and powers after one level and the rest for the second level.
Or maybe do a CR+1 template like zombie lord or skeletal champion.
Maybe they are using that Urgathoa Necklace item that lets you heal with negative energy? (It also is a salt shaker, including undead salt, because reasons.)
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-5- do you have any other idea for an undead priest pc ? Vampire would work I think but is the template not too op ?
One thing you NEED to know is that if you become ANY kind of undead that doesn't mention keeping Class Levels in it's description then i would be careful because you WILL lose your class levels... having said that i would totally still die to a Shadow because being a Shadow would be AWESOME (after you regained some class levels (which now aren't lost to Agent of the Grave!))
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Liches seem cool, but they add +2 to your CR, so that could be a little weird.
I would suggest going with a +1 template when you level up at one point or another. And, with the right templates, you could upgrade your template (with GM permission of course). You can take the vampire spawn template, and then upgrade into a regular vampire. Mummies can upgrade to mummy lords.
That +2 CR and extravagant cost is not worth it. I'll break down some cost expenses and comparisons, and give a few suggestions later, when I'm at home.
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How much does constant DR/15 bludgeoning and magic, darkvision 60, 5 natural armor, effective immortality, a touch attack that permanently paralyzes foes, fear aura, +2 int, +2 wis, +2 cha, +8 perception stealth and sense motive (overlaps any racial mods), plus
immunity to:
cold
electricity
any effects that require a fort save that doesn't affect inanimate objects
poison
disease
death effects
paralysis
sleep
stun
ability damage and drain
non-lethal damage
penalties to physical ability scores
fatigue
exhaustion
cost?
Granted, a lot of these are also given to vampire, but it sounds really worth the money to me. Especially the effective immortality. As put by Einstein, compounding interest is the most powerful force in the universe.
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First, let's take a look at what we're talking about.
Lich.
(I'm also going to drop psychic lich, too, but I may or may not get to that one.)
First the "price" as it were.
Lich's get CR+2.
Lich's must to make their phylactery. This is insane. Note that this is the "cost" - the hypothetical "price" to purchase one you didn't make (if any were ever sold, which they aren't, because they'd never be close to worth the price, and would be kind of irritating) would be - the same price as an artifact, according to designers. Keep that in mind for the following.
What do they get?
- undead subtype; this is valuable, but also comes with some drawbacks
- +5 nAC; this is valuable
- +4 channel resistance; this is valuable, but not as much to a caster
- DR 15/magical bludgeoning; this is decent
- immunity to cold and electricity; this is decent
- rejuvination; the centerpiece of the entire thing
- a touch attack (this would cost 1,500 for an equivalent item, by the way; or 3,000 gold, if you don't have to take up an item space)
- a fear aura that lasts longer, but is weaker than a first level spell (which, itself, would cost 3k)
- a paralyzing touch; this is roughly equivalent to a combination hold person and bestow curse
- a +2 increase to all three ability scores (roughly 16k value)
- a +8 bonus to skills (6,400 gold, according to the table)
So, over all, almost comparable to the value of an eighth level spell, plus a few lower-level spells, and rejuvination.
For the record, that seems like a good deal. After all, that eighth level spell as a continuous effect requires SL*CL*2k = 8*15*2k = 240,000... about the same as the hypothetical cost of the phylactery. That seems like it's a great deal!
... but it's not.
Why? Because the lich already has rejuvination, and it kind of sucks.
It takes 1d10 days for a lich to get better.
Let's compare reincarnate. For a constant effect, it has a price of 100k+[(4*7*2k)*2] = 100k+112k = 212k, presupposing it doesn't need to take up a slot (only 100k+56k=156k if it does take up a slot). In exchange, you gain immortality, and can have the effect go off in ten minutes, and it doesn't come with the hassle of having everyone want to end you forever. Of course, you only pay 156k (or 128k if it takes up a slot; I don't recommend this, however).
(Plus, if you're into that sort of thing, it allows you to either animate your own flesh, or use it for silly things like making a flesh golem of your past selves.)
You don't automatically get the form you like, but you have shifting physical bonuses, and retain more or less eternal youth, and with a caster, binding always lets you have access to a wish or miracle to get your own form back.
For a few thousand gold more, you can make your "phylactery" sentient, give it the special purpose of reincarnating you in the first place (specifically you), and have it teleport around/escape to safety if you die and it gets found out, and do all sorts of other neat stuff. Death becomes little more than a speed bump in this case. Any other issues are similarly easy to resolve, work much faster, and can come online at about the same level as lichdom.
But, you're interested in an in-character decision.
So, in that case, may I present, the juju zombie.
An eleventh level caster can make it happen.
But what about bringing it back? Let's look at resurrection.
10,000 gold component cost means 100,000 gold if continuous, or 50,000 gold if there's some kind of daily or other time limit. Let's go with that one.
So, 50k. Minimum caster level for a 7th level spell is 13 - so it stretches for 130 years. Plenty of time. 7*13*2k = 182k. Making it 1/day drops that to 18.2k... but making that 1/2 days makes it 9.1k gold. That... that is a fairly solid price point.
So, then we've got create undead. That 50 gold per hit dice is easy to come by - it caps out at 1000 gold (50*20) - so pay 50 k, and you're golden. Make the thing function once per two days as well (6*11*2/[2*5*2] = 132/20 = 6.6), and you've got yourself the ability to become undead no matter what your level.
So, the lower cost - 6.6k - gets multiplied by 1.5, so 9.9k gold.
Add all that together, and the price is 50k+50k+9.1k+9.9k... or about 119k. Um... what? Why go through all this trouble to save a measly thousand gold? Because that's not actually the cost... that's the price. Meaning you pay only 59.5k.
Make it a *your alignment* intelligent item (500g price -> 250g cost) with empathy, 30 ft. senses, darkvision (500g -> 250g cost), the ability to sprout limbs and move (+5k g -> +2.5 cost), and teleport 1/day (+15k g -> 7.5k g cost), and a special purpose of keeping you, specifically, (as a servant of Urgathoa) an active, functioning servant of that deity's interests.
(Total cost increase: +2.5k+7.5k+250+250 = 10k+500 = 10.5k gold.)
Make the item a small, ceremonial knife or ring with a slashy bit, with a small "channel" and "container" for blood or other tiny pieces (such as ash).
Now, if you die, the item can stab/cut/scratch you itself, collecting your blood or other remains sample, and maybe (if dangerous to the item) teleport out of there. It can then raise you, that day, right away. You may then either return as a living creature and fight, or wait and become undead again after your next ritual suicide.
(Heck, combine it with an ornate ring of sustenance for a 3,750 gold increase for a nicely thematic element to the whole deal.)
Total cost to you: 70k - actually within your 11th level character budget.
Total savings: 50k.
You gain:
- retain your class levels; as a lich
- gain undeath; as a lich
- gain +3 nAC; almost as much as a lich
- +4 channel resistance; as a lich
- DR 10/magic and slashing; almost as much as a lich
- immunity to cold, electricity, and magic missile; more than the lich
- fire resistance 10; more than the lich, but equivalent of a 1st level spell, so... meh
- big bonus to strength and moderate to dexterity; this is a better deal, by cost, than a lich's bonus stuff, though not always as valuable to a caster
- two bonus feats; a lich doesn't get these
- a bonus to climb; this is much less than the lich
- a better and more consistent resurrection time-frame
You don't gain:
- paralysis (the big loss)
- a weaker-than-first-level fear effect
- a first level touch attack
- the skill bonuses (that expending 3.2k can fix)
While the paralysis is unfortunate, the fact that your friends can touch you without fear is a pretty big gain.
If you really want to get all ceremonial, or something, imbibing/coating yourself with one (or more, depending on GM ruling*) unguent of timelessness could be nicely thematic toward gaining such immortality. Perhaps even blending it with something like black lotus extract (description). You commit ritual suicide and come back as a powerful undead servitor of Urgathoa, ready to go.
But here's the real benefit of all of this: it's pretty much rules-legal... at least far more rules legal and less arbitrary than any similar system, such as becoming a lich.
* In my opinion, it shouldn't take more than one, given that you have the ability to cover eight medium items with one vial. That said, I could see a GM coming to a different conclusion.
That said, as noted, other templates are better.
For example, the death knight is strictly superior to a lich.
- stronger fear aura
- spell resistance
- similar other defenses (losing only a +1 nAC)
- command undead ability
- infuse weapon ability (which can be done to natural weapons)
- a number of powerful spell-like abilities
- an undead mount
- strength and charisma of +4 and wisdom +2; compared to +2 mental scores
- bonus to two skills instead of the three
- bonus feat not gained
- lacks paralysis touch (more than made up for with SLAs), one skill increase, and +1 nAC
- lacks rejuvination (which can be made up for, as I presented above)
But compare that to the grave knight, which is even better.
- sacriligious aura is better in every way
- lower DR made up for by everything else
- rejuvination
- channel and blast and revivication are better
- phantom steed is roughly equivalent of the other steeds (some parts better, some worse)
- stat boosts are thoroughly and incredibly superior to both lich and death knight combined
- three skill bonuses (though only perception overlaps with lich)
- four solid feats (one of which the death knight gets)
Mind, this is all still a +2 template.
Again, a vampire is better than a lich
- defenses: better nAC (+6), lesser DR; fast healing and resistances (instead of immunity and no fast healing); and gaseous form.
- weaknesses: unfortunately you get weaknesses; try and see if you can somehow get a swim-speed first, though, and you're good to go for a major one (running water), and daywalker handles another.
- offenses: energy drain is tremendously superior to the lich's touch attack, blood drain is great, children of the night and create spawn are both excellent.
- special qualities: change shape, gaseous form, and spider climb are great... and you get shadowless, which is a thing, I guess.
- much better ability scores, akin to a death knight (though still not quite as good)
- four skills increased
- seven bonus feats
Jiang-shi is quirky, but still potent. There's also no noted cost to becoming one.
A psychic vampire or vetala vampire are both pretty phenomenal (in my opinion) - their ability to escape death (and the vetala's ability to possess a corpse, especially) are superior to even the normal vampire's abilities. With a vetala, simply choose a nice-looking corpse (perhaps treated with unguent of timelessness), animate it as a zombie, and go on adventuring in complete safety. Stack up a few corpses nearby, and go about possessing them one-at-a-time as they are destroyed... and you remain safe. Heck, simply taking the bodies of your defeated foes as well-preserved zombies that don't actually look undead...
And again... all of this is a CR+2, just like a lich, and for absolutely zero gold cost (unless you follow the rule-based player-accessible method I mentioned above).
All that said, it is strongly recommended that you speak with your GM about this.
Ultimately, you need to work with your GM - and party! - to make sure that everything is kosher, over-all.
One thing to bear in mind is that you'll be potent... so maybe you'll be able to assist everyone else in gaining their own special potent ways, as well. Try to look at things and spin things in such a way so that everyone gets something by your transformation, and no-one's vows or character's concepts are violated.
Hope that helps!
Juju Zombies definitely retain their memory.
There is nothing that indicates that undead lose their senses. It's peculiar, but they should retain all normal human senses, considering they aren't noted has having any particular limits.
Different GMs may interpret differently.
That said, both ghouls (which do all lose their memories), and vampires (which do not) demonstrably retain their normal senses (most specifically, that of taste), though, at least for ghouls, their sense of "taste" in terms of desire changes.
Bump for moving a conversation back to this thread where it proooooobably belongs.
Short version: decimal error above means resurrection is more costly than I wrote (oops), so be aware!
Thereafter:
I think reincarnate spy and cyclcic reincarnation (if I recall)? As I said: I've not looks into them enough to know for sure. But AI think they can bring back undead - or at least one of them can, if I recall. That and a ~70 year cycle time (thanks to unguents of timelessness; really closer to 69 to be on the safe side) and I don't really think you'd have much reason to go with resurrection. But it really depends on if my memory - spotty and distracted as it is at present - is working right, and their relative price points.What new versions of reincarnate?Hence why I favourited your post. It is a very good analysis. Price increase can be offset by making it 1/2 days, which still makes it better than a phylactery 9 times out of 10.Very much so! XD
EDIT: Though it could be easily covered by limited-use items instead, and it doesn't break any of the other points made. :)
Thanks!
Hey: have you checked those new versions of reincarnate out, price-wise? I haven't. They may be well worth the cost, but I've not done a comparative analysis to see if they're cheaper.
Reincarnate Spy seems like an effectively worse version of reincarnate, really. Cyclic reincarnation is better, in that it could raise someone killed by a death effect, but doesn't quite reach resurrection in that your new body wouldn't look quite like your old one, but that's probably easilly fixable with the resources a lv20 wizard has on hand. It is way cheaper than resurrection(66 vs 91 Spell level*CL), and so it it's material component(5k vs 10k for resurrection). It also doesn't have that stupid clause about being unable to raise people who died of old age, making it a bit safer as a long-term investment.
If you are looking into a Good phylactery, that seems like a better choice, since it would be effectively 250k cheaper. I am not sure if being...
EDOT: (cheap-o edit, on phone while baby is trying to drink milk without a lid):
Reincarnate Spy seems like an effectively worse version of reincarnate, really. Cyclic reincarnation is better, in that it could raise someone killed by a death effect, but doesn't quite reach resurrection in that your new body wouldn't look quite like your old one, but that's probably easilly fixable with the resources a lv20 wizard has on hand. It is way cheaper than resurrection(66 vs 91 Spell level*CL), and so it it's material component(5k vs 10k for resurrection). It also doesn't have that stupid clause about being unable to raise people who died of old age, making it a bit safer as a long-term investment.
If you are looking into a Good phylactery, that seems like a better choice, since it would be effectively 250k cheaper. I am not sure if being "immune" to death effects and soul magic is worth 200 thousand gold though, in comparison to simple reincarnation.
Ugh. That post was hideous.
That's what I get for attempting to post a complex and nuanced conversation from a phone while having a toddler attempt to drink milk from an uncapped thing. Heh.
Re-re-re-reeeeeeeeeeeeepooooooooooooooooooost. With more readability, hopefully.
First, to reiterate, my above number with resurrection is significantly off: basically, when I did the numbers in my head alone, before, I missed a decimal point: a rather significant failure! Basically, it's not 100,000 and 50,000: it's 1,000,000 and 500,000 - a very different set of numbers!
That said, this is still (generally) a superior option to lichdom, as it's an easier access-point, and generally easier to come by through other methods beyond those listed here (which, as noted, really were pretty much just the top of my head with no real cross-checking at the time).
Other than that faux pas (for which I apologize), the remainder seems to hold true to all subsequent requests I've made for checking.
Also, see the conversation below:
Your math is wrong in that other thread.
>But what about bringing it back? Let's look at resurrection.
>10,000 gold component cost means 100,000 gold if continuous, or 50,000 gold if there's some kind of daily or other time limit. Let's go with that one.
Should be 1,000,000 gold, not 100,000.
Ah! Thanks! :D
Knew I should have checked my math again. Decimal points. Heh. XD
It does kinda break your point there... Pseudo-phylactery price goes up by 150 thousand(1 000 000/5=200 000 if 1/day).
Very much so! XD
EDIT: Though it could be easily covered by limited-use items instead, and it doesn't break any of the other points made. :)
Hence why I favourited your post. It is a very good analysis. Price increase can be offset by making it 1/2 days, which still makes it better than a phylactery 9 times out of 10.
Thanks!Hey: have you checked those new versions of reincarnate out, price-wise? I haven't. They may be well worth the cost, but I've not done a comparative analysis to see if they're cheaper.
What new versions of reincarnate?
I think reincarnate spy and cyclcic reincarnation (if I recall)? As I said: I've not looks into them enough to know for sure. But AI think they can bring back undead - or at least one of them can, if I recall. That and a ~70 year cycle time (thanks to unguents of timelessness; really closer to 69 to be on the safe side) and I don't really think you'd have much reason to go with resurrection. But it really depends on if my memory - spotty and distracted as it is at present - is working right, and their relative price points.
Reincarnate Spy seems like an effectively worse version of reincarnate, really. Cyclic reincarnation is better, in that it could raise someone killed by a death effect, but doesn't quite reach resurrection in that your new body wouldn't look quite like your old one, but that's probably easilly fixable with the resources a lv20 wizard has on hand. It is way cheaper than resurrection(66 vs 91 Spell level*CL), and so it it's material component(5k vs 10k for resurrection). It also doesn't have that stupid clause about being unable to raise people who died of old age, making it a bit safer as a long-term investment.
If you are looking into a Good phylactery, that seems like a better choice, since it would be effectively 250k cheaper. I am not sure if being "immune" to death effects and soul magic is worth 200 thousand gold though, in comparison to simple reincarnation.
Hope that helps!
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I seem to recall that either Corhorts & Companions or the Champions of Corruption has rules for undead followers. Might be both.
Regarding the Aura, I don't think the lich can dismiss it, but I think you could disguise the lich, like with a polymorph, and you'd lose the aura.
As for making a PC into a lich, it really depends on the GM's setting. I tend to think that lich characters should have a home base, and not stray too far from there. If you are adventurers which travel alot, I think the lich is a bad choice. You kinda need to stay by your guarded phalactery, plus the lich is kinda hard to miss in a crowd.
Since you are running LE, I think, just to spite you, the GM should make you into a Devil...thus making you unable to become undead by traditional means.
Tacticslion first off a template shouldn't really be compared with a buying an item, there nor fully comparable.
There isn't always a clear cut cost in these things but it's common knowledge that combining affects in one magic item increases the cost as it saves slots and yet here you are comparing what would effectively be an unremovable slotless magic item witha bout 10 different abilities and costing them underpriced and individually.
An untyped bonus on a magic item would be far more expensive than an enhancement bonus for one thing. There almost non-existent in fact.
Tacticslion first off a template shouldn't really be compared with a buying an item, there nor fully comparable.
That's a valid opinion, but in this case I've directly shown how every part of the template (save the paralysis touch) can, in fact, be replicated by an item.
There isn't always a clear cut cost in these things but it's common knowledge that combining affects in one magic item increases the cost as it saves slots and yet here you are comparing what would effectively be an unremovable slotless magic item witha bout 10 different abilities and costing them underpriced and individually.
Please do go into a more detailed explanation! I'd be glad to see a comparative analysis! It'd be quite enlightening!
But also, do note the "roughly" in my post - I did clarify that it wasn't always exact in that very post (i.e. not necessarily "clear cut" as you say, but "close").
Thanks in advance! :D
An untyped bonus on a magic item would be far more expensive than an enhancement bonus for one thing. There almost non-existent in fact.
That +2 is nice because it stacks, but here's the deal: you're shelling out so much dough to get it that, by the time you've expunged that much money, you should be rocking a greater-than-plus-eleven bonus before then. Again: I can afford +11 before I can afford that +2. That kind of puts that +2 into perspective, yeah?
Sure, it can't be disarmed or whatever... so what?
The fact is, the preponderance of things that I have to worry about at this level aren't really things that I have to worry about at this level.
Of course, if you're defending the integrity of lichdom as a template, allow me to remind you of the rest of said post: check out its fellow +2s - it fails there, too.
The "problem" with lich isn't that it's a lousy template - it's that it's cost is given, and that cost is prohibitive, compared to what can be achieved through other means within the narrative of the game, and generally isn't all that great for what you get out of it (plus has a startlingly high failure chance, to the point that there are at least two failed lich templates - one failed before you became a lich 'cause you did it wrong, and the other after you succeeded 'cause you got too bored) which makes it a sucky in-character choice, too.
There are lots of "nice" things about a lich: they get some nice defenses, and rejuvination is kind of neat, and that paralysis touch is nastily potent.
Losing two (relative) character levels (compared to others) and shelling out for the equivalent of a 240k gold-value item at eleventh level (paying 120k to make it, and hoping against hope you're not one of the substantial percentage of failed liches) are not part of those nice things about a lich - they aren't even reasonable things about a lich.
Give me the vetala vampire template and I might consider it. Maybe. That thing is pretty boss.
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Ugh. That post was hideous.
That's what I get for attempting to post a complex and nuanced conversation from a phone while having a toddler attempt to drink milk from an uncapped thing. Heh.
Re-re-re-reeeeeeeeeeeeepooooooooooooooooooost. With more readability, hopefully.
First, to reiterate, my above number with resurrection is significantly off: basically, when I did the numbers in my head alone, before, I missed a decimal point: a rather significant failure! Basically, it's not 100,000 and 50,000: it's 1,000,000 and 500,000 - a very different set of numbers!
That said, this is still (generally) a superior option to lichdom, as it's an easier access-point, and generally easier to come by through other methods beyond those listed here (which, as noted, really were pretty much just the top of my head with no real cross-checking at the time).
Other than that faux pas (for which I apologize), the remainder seems to hold true to all subsequent requests I've made for checking.
Also, see the conversation below:
Your math is wrong in that other thread.
>But what about bringing it back? Let's look at resurrection.
>10,000 gold component cost means 100,000 gold if continuous, or 50,000 gold if there's some kind of daily or other time limit. Let's go with that one.
Should be 1,000,000 gold, not 100,000.
Ah! Thanks! :D
Knew I should have checked my math again. Decimal points. Heh. XD
It does kinda break your point there... Pseudo-phylactery price goes up by 150 thousand(1 000 000/5=200 000 if 1/day).Very much so! XD
EDIT: Though it could be easily covered by limited-use items instead, and it doesn't break any of the other points made. :)
Hence why I favourited your post. It is a very good analysis. Price increase can be offset by making it 1/2 days, which still makes it better than...
I'd honestly go with a permanent (1/day, 1/2days or even rarer if you aren't particularily paranoid) reincarnation, along with 10-ish charges of cyclic reincarnation. First should protect you from random deaths to whatever stuff would try to kill you in your day to day life, while second will insure you don't die of old age or a fluke death effect. If you don't like the race you ended up with, just stab yourself in the face after the cooldown timer resets.
And if you need to reincarnate more often than 1/day, you really should re-evaluate your strategy.
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>A problem with either auto-reincarnate or auto-resurrect is that they both bring you back right away, right where you were.
They...don't? Your phylactery can be made into an intelligent item for 500gp, it's not supposed to be stupid.