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I've not seen it.Unfortunately, yes.Imagine if we just tried banning all the bigots and their apologists BEFORE we nuke the forums. Worth a shot, at least, since these people want the forums gone entirely.Do people regularly say that "Trans men aren't men" or "Trans women aren't women" or "Trans people are sub-human" on this forum?
It doesn't matter if you or I don't see it. What we may perceive or interpret as benign can and often does have a real impact on marginalized communities. If one of out transgender community members says "This is offensive" then it is. Full stop.* We learn from our mistakes and we move on to become better people.
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Discord made 120m USD revenue in 2020. Part of that was me paying them 10 bucks or so per month for my server.
Image hosting is expensive. Revenue and profit are two very different things.
Anyways, I found the old "the forums are not your therapy" point to be a little... odd, I guess. Of course they aren't. Friends and family aren't therapy, either. Neighborhoods aren't therapy. Support groups aren't therapy.
But to question that a community might still be very important for someone's mental health... really? So if, let's say, someone had come along and threatened to shut the entire internet down in mid-2020, during the lockdown, you don't think that might have affected people's mental health in very normal and understandable ways? And don't get hyperliteral about payment processors, you know very well what I mean.
I wouldn't be who I was without the Paizo forums. I wouldn't be a writer, wouldn't know my girlfriend or best friend, might never have realized I was a girl, and might not even be playing D&D anymore. What virtual communication skills I have were largely honed on these forums, along with a lot of my basic social skills and grasp of empathy. I don't even know the version of me that wasn't on these forums for 60% of her lifespan.
That's not "using the forums as therapy". That's "appreciating and valuing the power of a persistant community"--something which the people who support this thread's aims seem bizarrely incurious about.
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It doesn't matter if you or I don't see it. What we may perceive or interpret as benign can and often does have a real impact on marginalized communities. If one of our transgender community members says "This is offensive" then it is. Full stop.*
This can be complicated, obviously, and there's nuance to it. That being said, what isn't nuanced is this: If a trans person tells you something is offensive or hurtful, and your instinct is to disregard their feelings and begin an argument on how their feelings are wrong, you aren't just behaving in a transphobic way--you're not showing empathy for a community member. And not treating trans community members like they are deserving of empathy and respect is kind of a problem.
I am fully prepared to believe that some people genuinely screwed up, or misspoke, or have revised their behavior since then. But for them to continue to fixate on our "cruelty", knowing the circumstances, makes me feel like they care more about getting to take part in and win an internet debate than actual human beings.
I don't talk about privilege a lot by name. I think it can be misused. But being unwilling to allow trans people to lead a discussion about trans issues--or obsessing over individual trans people being "toxic" and "mean" at times like these--speaks to an unwillingness to check your privilege and recognize that not every argument needs your take.
You think you're being misconstrued as transphobic? Well, that sucks. But why are you more angry at an ear-splitting fire alarm than the fact that the alarm seems to be detecting smoke in your house?
The awkward fact of it is that while some of us may choose to accept your apologies, nobody is obligated to. That's not how apologies work. And those people who don't accept them may continue to be uncomfortable with you trying to occupy these spaces, and you're kind of going to have to accept that. Continuing to not only occupy these spaces but endlessly start fights with us tells us you haven't really learned anything.
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It doesn't matter if you or I don't see it. What we may perceive or interpret as benign can and often does have a real impact on marginalized communities. If one of our transgender community members says "This is offensive" then it is. Full stop.*This can be complicated, obviously, and there's nuance to it. That being said, what isn't nuanced is this: If a trans person tells you something is offensive or hurtful, and your instinct is to disregard their feelings and begin an argument on how their feelings are wrong, you aren't just behaving in a transphobic way--you're not showing empathy for a community member. And not treating trans community members like they are deserving of empathy and respect is kind of a problem.
I am fully prepared to believe that some people genuinely screwed up, or misspoke, or have revised their behavior since then. But for them to continue to fixate on our "cruelty", knowing the circumstances, makes me feel like they care more about getting to take part in and win an internet debate than actual human beings.
I don't talk about privilege a lot by name. I think it can be misused. But being unwilling to allow trans people to lead a discussion about trans issues--or obsessing over individual trans people being "toxic" and "mean" at times like these--speaks to an unwillingness to check your privilege and recognize that not every argument needs your take.
You think you're being misconstrued as transphobic? Well, that sucks. But why are you more angry at an ear-splitting fire alarm than the fact that the alarm seems to be detecting smoke in your house?
The awkward fact of it is that while some of us may choose to accept your apologies, nobody is obligated to. That's not how apologies work. And those people who don't accept them may continue to be uncomfortable with you trying to occupy these spaces, and you're kind of going to have to accept that. Continuing to not only occupy these spaces but endlessly start fights with us tells us...
I agree.
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Also to be clear, none of this would be even academically acceptable to begin with, appeals to the idea of everything must be debated forever and "just asking questions" are both recognized tactics for poisoning the well.
Many things are settled, the validity of trans identities is settled. Anyone telling you otherwise is trying to sell you something, and that something is their hate.
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Also to be clear, none of this would be even academically acceptable to begin with, appeals to the idea of everything must be debated forever and "just asking questions" are both recognized tactics for poisoning the well.
Many things are settled, the validity of trans identities is settled. Anyone telling you otherwise is trying to sell you something, and that something is their hate.
This hits the nail on the head. I could not have put it any better if I tried
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Oh, one thing I want to mention: Every time you start an unnecessary argument with a trans person here so you can quibble over details or tangents, that's another window for trolls to jump in and "take your side". That's another reason why you get lumped in with them. Pointless conflict is really frustrating and exhausting right now. It makes it harder to engage with the serious issues, because we get burned out, but it also makes bad-faith actors (like the people who keep posting "I don't care about these dumb issues" takes, who are blatant transphobes hiding behind vagueness) much more numerous and hard to deal with.
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When people make the sane arguments from Alt Right groups...when people tell you who they are, believe them.
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Why do you choose to read me as saying that? It is very strange to interpret me as saying any of that. And 2 + 2 = 5?
I am asking this honestly: Why do you keep making up situations in which you'd be fully justified in insulting our intelligence? What will it accomplish? Why not stay confined to literal matters?
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I don't think anybody's even argued that moderation isn't overworked and underfunded, but that being true does not inherently follow to "shut down the forums". That's the leap of logic that goes from "well, duh" to "um, what?"
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I think part of the necessary change would be a new CS or Community Director.
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Considering all this disaster started because Tonya and the rest of leadership somehow thought Sara Marie was redundant, it's clear to me that they're already valuing these forums too little as it is.
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Clearly the answer is to delete the forums.
I mean, years of ignoring the people working professionally with them and their experience and expertise, giving the forums no budget, having the people working with them do several other jobs in addition to community work, and constantly berating people by saying that the magic they did manage to make with no budget and resources is a toxic cesspool didn’t work, so there isn’t any other solution than to just delete them.
/sarcasm
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Considering all this disaster started because Tonya and the rest of leadership somehow thought Sara Marie was redundant, it's clear to me that they're already valuing these forums too little as it is.
When I read that post yesterday from a former employee, I was floored and the benefits of the doubt went right out the window. Not cool.
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What does it take for those responsible to eat a ban, so they can actually stop causing harm to marginalized members of this community?
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I honestly don’t understand this myself. Some of these recurrent posters have been actively malicious, constantly violate community guidelines, have many of their posts deleted, and by their own admission get suspended only to return and rinse and repeat. I know I haven’t posted here often, but it is becoming appalling just how much some folks are getting away with without meaningful consequences
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What does it take for those responsible to eat a ban, so they can actually stop causing harm to marginalized members of this community?
Think it would take a community manager who either has the authority to issue actual bans or a customer service manager to not be fired because I doubt Sara Marie would have allowed the constant barrage of anti LGBT+ attacks continue.
Because if the current community manager in fact has the authority to ban the people but is refusing to use it? Then that speaks for itself too. A few days time out is obviously not a deterrent.
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By the way, if anybody wants to support Sara, she has a Ko-Fi set up at https://ko-fi.com/charmedneedle. Can confirm it's legit.
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I would like to second Keftiu's question, I apologize for the added stress of pushing, but there's been some pretty overt examples lately that are pretty clearly trying to insist that 'questioning' the human rights of trans people is should be an accepted part of the discourse and that anyone who says otherwise isn't being civil, I get that banning is a serious process, but its also a responsibility if we mean to have a safe community.
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Refusing to drive away bigots is just taking their side with extra steps. This company either cares about trans people or doesn’t - and the last few months have put a lot more evidence in the latter category.
Please, do something.
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Noting that as a general guideline, folks on the forum get three strikes before getting the ban hammer dropped on them. Also noting that this does not and should not ever apply to transphobic rhetoric. Thought I’d mention it since it seemed like it clearly needed to be mentioned despite being a pretty obvious concept.
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keftiu, you have been very vocal about not supporting Paizo until they acknowledged their fault with regards to the transphobia and hotel debacle. Does their blog "apology" meet your expectation and you will resume buying from them? Or is there more they must do?
I am not trying to bait you or anything. I am just wondering. For clarity, this blog does nothing to restore my faith and I am not resuming my purchasing based on it. I maintain my "demand" that they PROVE change not continue to talk about it.
For transparency I do admit that I have a few of gift vouchers from org play that will allow me to obtain some products for free. I don't consider that betraying my commitment not to give them money as I feel getting free product amounts to a drain on Paizo's revenue and costing them money through the loss of revenue. Just my opinion and YMMV.
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keftiu, you have been very vocal about not supporting Paizo until they acknowledged their fault with regards to the transphobia and hotel debacle. Does their blog "apology" meet your expectation and you will resume buying from them? Or is there more they must do?
I am not trying to bait you or anything. I am just wondering. For clarity, this blog does nothing to restore my faith and I am not resuming my purchasing based on it. I maintain my "demand" that they PROVE change not continue to talk about it.
For transparency I do admit that I have a few of gift vouchers from org play that will allow me to obtain some products for free. I don't consider that betraying my commitment not to give them money as I feel getting free product amounts to a drain on Paizo's revenue and costing them money through the loss of revenue. Just my opinion and YMMV.
I broke my personal boycott when the union was recognized and scooped up a couple of books that day, but haven’t purchased anything more since. This communication is a slap in the face, bad enough that I’m likely to restrict my purchases going forward again. The weasely wording I called out in my first post of the new blog - the ‘perception’ of transphobia, anyone who ‘felt’ marginalized - combined with the fact that Jeff, the man responsible for these issues, still has his job… it paints a picture of a company that refuses to accept they did wrong. Hiring a law firm with a checkered history is the icing on top.
Paizo seems allergic to walking the walk when it comes to trans people and those who harm them, whether that means management who institute discriminatory policies or ‘fans’ spewing open hate on this forum. I’m unimpressed enough that I just… don’t think I’ll touch Pathfinder for a while. There are other games out there, from people that actually care.
The only way forward is the union; I wish them all the best in dealing with management that is shameless toxic.
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Yes, exactly this minus the sarcasm. Just because it is work doesn’t mean it is work worth doing. I fully believe you tried and were setup to fail by lack of support and resources. Anybody who knows or worked with people in CS understands this. Why would you want the next person with your former job to endure this again given this track record?
However, these forums as they exist aren’t promoting what Paizo is good at. Promote the game we play and the products Paizo makes. The rest of this isn’t worth time or investment. I understand this isn’t popular for those so invested in this place, but many seem to have vastly overestimated how important these forums are to people who play the games and buy products. Especially topics unrelated to the products.
No.
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Trying to balance the needs of the community with the way our software works when people are banned. Think we've found a way to resolve the issue and will be utilizing it from here on out.
For transparency, the way that was found was that the CSRs pushed back and refused to back down so Tonya has aquiesced.
Uugh! The more that is coming out about Tanya the more uugh it becomes.
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Trying to balance the needs of the community with the way our software works when people are banned. Think we've found a way to resolve the issue and will be utilizing it from here on out.For transparency, the way that was found was that the CSRs pushed back and refused to back down so Tonya has aquiesced.
Well s$$%.
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If that’s true (which I have little reason to disbelieve) that is not a “way to do the thing” that’s “the CS team pushed for a reasonable means of moderating the forums and weren’t acknowledged for a frankly insane amount of time.” If that’s genuinely how Paizo is running the ship, between that revelation and the recent letter, I’m genuinely uncomfortable with Paizo as a company. If not for the union, this would likely have been my line in the sand.
And heck, I’m cis (I think)! I can’t imagine how much of an absolute storm this has been to our trans friends.
Paizo, don’t just do better. Please at least do the bare minimum and go up from there.
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Yes. New tagline.
Paizo, do the bare minimum.
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Trying to balance the needs of the community with the way our software works when people are banned. Think we've found a way to resolve the issue and will be utilizing it from here on out.For transparency, the way that was found was that the CSRs pushed back and refused to back down so Tonya has aquiesced.
That is worse than what I thought. In my tech background I assumed that Sara Marie's account had the privileges and they didn't know how to re assign them to Tonya.
Telling me that Tonya had the access the entire time and is now claiming to have just found it is appalling.
Paizo needs to stop passing the buck and start taking accountability at mid management level and above.
Paizo, do the bare minimum.
Cringey
Software Architect
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Once upon a time, I spent nearly a decade of my life engaging in "rigorous academic debate" and playing devil's advocate on pretty much every topic imaginable. I thought it was part of a grand and noble tradition to seek out and defend the truth, whatever it may be.
But it turns out that devils don't need any more help than they already receive, and that thoroughly debunking someone's bad, dangerous position is often less impactful than the corresponding platforming of their position by encouraging the debate in the first place.
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Good lord. Thank you for the revelation, Diego.
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I think Yoshua is confusing the issue here. What I gathered was that banning people was complicated, due to the store-forum linkage, and Tonya refused to take action to find a workaround until the CSRs pushed her on it.
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Once upon a time, I spent nearly a decade of my life engaging in "rigorous academic debate" and playing devil's advocate on pretty much every topic imaginable. I thought it was part of a grand and noble tradition to seek out and defend the truth, whatever it may be.
But it turns out that devils don't need any more help than they already receive, and that thoroughly debunking someone's bad, dangerous position is often less impactful than the corresponding platforming of their position by encouraging the debate in the first place.
It also dilutes more meaningful dissent when something important does come up that needs discussion and course correction, and numbs defenders by subjecting them to constant vacuous questioning that in aggregate inflicts trauma, making it harder to differentiate between well poisoning and meaningful opposition on rights and responsibilities related to the pursuit of justice.
Often, the purpose is the damage inflicted by keeping endless pressure on the target to create cracks of strain and discord within the movement.