The argument that just because something doesn't say I can't do something means I can do something is awful.
The rules also don't say the GM cant replace your dice with d4's, or make you play blind folded.
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You have yet to explain why.
As a Paladin, YOU stand for Good.
You happen to worship a deity who is ambivalent, but promotes many things you find good (healthy childbirth, destruction of undead, proper burials).
Why is worship a bad thing?
You don't receive power from Pharasma, you receive power from Good, the universal concept that transcends deities. You don't need to fall lockstep with her entire mindset, just the parts you like.
That's why Paladin Hellknights can get on just fine revering the sheer orderliness of Hell, but not the Evil parts.
When you worship a deity as a Paladin you do fall lockstep with their mindset to a certain extent, because when you do worship a deity as a Paladin you do get their powers from them.
"I want to do good but my Goddess could really f@$$ing care less since I'm not over there smiting undead" isn't a really good vote of confidence.
I know midwives and expectant mothers pray to Her for healthy childbirths but is that actually in her portfolio?
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Granted I am more okay with the idea of a Paladin of Pharasma than I am with Paladins of Abadar, which are unfortunately a thing.I like to imagine Paladins of Abadar all have pompadours, slick grins, and ridiculous wives/sidekicks. They travel the countryside in tent shows explaining how their god wants them to be rich... at least until Starfinder, when they start their own television network...
*eye twitch*
*eye twitch*
That's what Inquisitors and Warpriests are for. :-)
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That's what Inquisitors and Warpriests are for. :-)
I am *fully* behind such a character *calling* them self a paladin, and even having the conviction of belief that they are.
Just as a btw, there is nothing in the actual rules for a paladin that explicitly says they have to worship a diety at all.
You could simply choose to not worship anyone and have one of the various gods bestow powers upon you, "Because".
There is one refences to deities within the PRD for paladin. There are 2 mentions of "god". All of these are in descriptions of abilities and not within actual mechanics.
Through a select, worthy few shines the power of the divine. Called paladins, these noble souls dedicate their swords and lives to the battle against evil. Knights, crusaders, and law-bringers, paladins seek not just to spread divine justice but to embody the teachings of the virtuous deities they serve.
Does that mean they have to serve them knowingly? Or simply that their actions happen to serve the deity. How binding is that text
"God" Is mentioned in the level 20 capstone and the divine bond class feature. Neither explicitly require whorship
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When you worship a deity as a Paladin you do fall lockstep with their mindset to a certain extent, because when you do worship a deity as a Paladin you do get their powers from them.
Can you give me a quote on that? Because I've never seen it.
I know midwives and expectant mothers pray to Her for healthy childbirths but is that actually in her portfolio?
From her write-up in Carrion Crown:
Portfolio: Fate, Death, Prophecy, Rebirth
"Pharasma’s followers are midwives, morticians, so-called “white necromancers,” expectant mothers, and (though much less so since Aroden’s death) Harrowers, palmists, oneiromancers, cloud-readers, and others who use non-magical forms of divination."
"In art, Pharasma is depicted as the midwife, the mad prophet, or the reaper of the dead, depending upon her role. Her visage usually has gray skin and white eyes. As the midwife, she is efficient and severe, hair pulled back and arms bare from hands to the elbows. As the prophet, she is wild-eyed and tanglehaired, her words echoing like thunder. As the reaper, she is tall and gaunt, with a flowing, black-hooded gown and an hourglass with fast-flowing red sand—moving with deliberate care rather than aggressiveness. Pregnant women often carry small tokens of her midwife likeness on long necklaces to protect the unborn and grant them good lives. "
"Pharasma is in favor of marriage, as it leads to births, but is not against having children out of wedlock, or childless couples adopting, or children being raised in orphanages. Church weddings may be simple or ornate, depending on the social status and wealth of the participants. Though she is the goddess of birth, she does not oppose contraception, and her temples have been known to provide this assistance to women with a history of stillbirths and deformities. However, she believes killing a child in the womb is an abomination, for it sends the infant soul to the afterlife before it has a chance to fulfill its destiny; thus, the goddess’s midwives refuse to aid in such matters, even if bearing the child would be a great risk to the mother. Some church midwives, called casarmetzes, are so skilled in a combination of medicine, magic, and surgery that in dire circumstances they can cut a living child from its mother’s womb and save both. "
And remember, one of her Domains is Healing as well.
She also is more caring than you seem to believe, since she (though rarely) will sometimes give people who die under "mysterious conditions" the chance to come back as a spirit briefly and say last goodbyes to their family, or give clues to who murdered them and why.
She's a very Good leaning Neutral in my eyes.
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Granted I am more okay with the idea of a Paladin of Pharasma than I am with Paladins of Abadar, which are unfortunately a thing.I like to imagine Paladins of Abadar all have pompadours, slick grins, and ridiculous wives/sidekicks. They travel the countryside in tent shows explaining how their god wants them to be rich... at least until Starfinder, when they start their own television network...
Oh God. 'Lil Gideon as a Paladin of Abadar.
Yup, that's always been my take on her. Last to pick a side but when she has to she'd on the good team.
I know midwives and expectant mothers pray to Her for healthy childbirths but is that actually in her portfolio?
Births and fate, definitely.
In the case of Pharasma, a paladin may have a somewhat harder time being a priest, but s/he can be a lay worshipper or even a warrior for the faith in certain situations. Yes, s/he does not agree with parts of the dogma, but I´m pretty sure a NG, CN and NE priests of Pharasma have their disagreements too. Sure, you could say that Pharasma´s stress on fate means a paladin is not allowed to help the suffering because it was fate, but how is that any more valid for a LG paladin than for a NG cleric? Pharasma is mostly focused on a few key issues, other than that as I understand it clerics have a fair amount of choice as far as She is concerned (the church organization itself is another story).
If paladins are not required to serve a god for their powers, I see no trouble with a paladin who venerates deities without being completely devoted to the dogma, i.e. praying to Pharasma often and participating in church rites. In a pantheistic setting, imo **not** paying at least some respect to several gods would be an exception, not the norm. Why wouldn´t you, for example, pray to Erastil for a good harvest, to Shelyn for love in your marriage, to Pharasma to help you with childbirth, to Gorum in war and, hell, to Cayden when stoppering the wine barrel? Acknowledging these powerful beings and propitiating them to gain their favor should be a good idea at any rate.
To be honest, a lot of the Pharasmin dogma makes perfect sense for a LN deity. She is an impartial judge of the dead and is extremely serious about enforcing the laws of the universe that she is tied to. I have a hard time imagining a CN pharasmin priest.
Of course James Jacobs kinda ruined her for me on the boards recently but I can ignore that.
"Yeah she's strong enough to suplex Rovagug single handed but she was like 'Nah, I'll pass'."
Bah.
Raw with Rovagug, absolutely NO. RAW with Asmodeus also absolutely no, because the only text you'll find to back that idea up has been repeatedly outed as a publication mistake.I say as it is written. Unless they made errata and i missed it, rules say you can worship whoever you want. Other question is, if paladin instantly falls by worshipping evil deity...
The rules themselves prohibit it, and yes, the Devs have REPEATEDLY come onto the boards and outed it.
And yes, if a Paladin intentionally, and deliberately decides to worship an evil diety on my table, he falls on the spot.
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Granted I am more okay with the idea of a Paladin of Pharasma than I am with Paladins of Abadar, which are unfortunately a thing.I like to imagine Paladins of Abadar all have pompadours, slick grins, and ridiculous wives/sidekicks. They travel the countryside in tent shows explaining how their god wants them to be rich... at least until Starfinder, when they start their own television network...
No way. We already know that Paladins of Abadar are all sexy, crossbow-wielding cowgirls.
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@Sundaken, for the first thing, um, the Paladin Codes specific to each Deity? It'd be kinda odd for Paladins to not gain any influence from their Deities, even odder from the Deities viewpoint.
As for her Carrion Crown writeup I don't go by that, since that writeup also calls out Abortion as Evil. No thanks.
Of course James Jacobs kinda ruined her for me on the boards recently but I can ignore that.
"Yeah she's strong enough to suplex Rovagug single handed but she was like 'Nah, I'll pass'."
Bah.
Both parts of that statement seem to have been retconned. She did participate in the effort to have him caged, but she was not nearly strong enough to do it by herself, and apparantly a whole bunch of gods and demi-gods did not walk away once the dust settled.
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No way. We already know that Paladins of Abadar are all sexy, crossbow-wielding cowgirls.Granted I am more okay with the idea of a Paladin of Pharasma than I am with Paladins of Abadar, which are unfortunately a thing.I like to imagine Paladins of Abadar all have pompadours, slick grins, and ridiculous wives/sidekicks. They travel the countryside in tent shows explaining how their god wants them to be rich... at least until Starfinder, when they start their own television network...
As much as I would love for that to be true, Abadarites being Abadarities she was probably an awesome cosplayer they hired for good publicity.
As much as I would love for that to be true, Abadarites being Abadarities she was probably an awesome cosplayer they hired for good publicity.
Hey, nothing prevents an awesome cowgirl cosplayer from being into a gaudy dressing style, crossbows and sound and fair business practices. Abadarian paladins are quite atypical as far as paladins go, but I can see it happen now and then.
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As much as I would love for that to be true, Abadarites being Abadarities she was probably an awesome cosplayer they hired for good publicity.Hey, nothing prevents an awesome cowgirl cosplayer from being into a gaudy dressing style, crossbows and sound and fair business practices. Abadarian paladins are quite atypical as far as paladins go, but I can see it happen now and then.
Not a Paladin of Abadar then XD
Or worse, she is...
@Sundaken, for the first thing, um, the Paladin Codes specific to each Deity? It'd be kinda odd for Paladins to not gain any influence from their Deities, even odder from the Deities viewpoint.
How so?
As for her Carrion Crown writeup I don't go by that, since that writeup also calls out Abortion as Evil. No thanks.
Well for one, your personal preferences don't really matter, that's the lore, and it's all we really have to go on.
For two, it doesn't say it's Evil. It says Pharasma, Neutral (not Good...kinda the crux of this whole discussion y'know) goddess of Birth and Death, sees abortion as an abomination.
Of course James Jacobs kinda ruined her for me on the boards recently but I can ignore that.
"Yeah she's strong enough to suplex Rovagug single handed but she was like 'Nah, I'll pass'."
Bah.
He was wrong about that, it turned out. Somebody pointed out some published lore that she was one of the first to join the fight against Rovy, and he deferred to the published material.
He was wrong about that, it turned out. Somebody pointed out some published lore that she was one of the first to join the fight against Rovy, and he deferred to the published material.Of course James Jacobs kinda ruined her for me on the boards recently but I can ignore that.
"Yeah she's strong enough to suplex Rovagug single handed but she was like 'Nah, I'll pass'."
Bah.
Yay!
Of course James Jacobs kinda ruined her for me on the boards recently but I can ignore that.
"Yeah she's strong enough to suplex Rovagug single handed but she was like 'Nah, I'll pass'."
Bah.
Yeah if you talk to James Jacobs about Pharasma you get a decidedly different picture of the deity than the one people here are trying to paint.
Pharasma is James creation. He has basically said she cares f%%@all for pretty much everything that isn't specifically in her wheelhouse.
She was going to ignore Rovagug and let him destroy Golarion because it wasn't technically her concern. People were going to die and she was going to judge them, that was her job. It was not her job to interfere with Rovagug. It also wasn't her job to stop the other deities who decided they were going to team up and stop them.
Pharasma is definitely not a good deity. She cares about the very small number of things related to her portfolio, and is otherwise waiting for the end of existence to happen.
Edit: Seems some published lore contradicted James' statements....interesting. Still James vision of her is decidedly different from the way many people appear to picture Pharasma. And even if she did join the fight against Rovagug, so did Asmodeus.
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As for her Carrion Crown writeup I don't go by that, since that writeup also calls out Abortion as Evil. No thanks.Well for one, your personal preferences don't really matter, that's the lore, and it's all we really have to go on.
For two, it doesn't say it's Evil. It says Pharasma, Neutral (not Good...kinda the crux of this whole discussion y'know) goddess of Birth and Death, sees abortion as an abomination.
That had less to do with evil and more to do with what Pharasma is a deity of - birth and fate. An intentional abortion means that you, mortal humanoid № 18771280871, overrule what she as the deity in charge of births and by association pregnancy decided is going to happen. You disregarded her position and dogma, thus insulting her. I would have gone for "anathema" rather than "abomination," to be honest, but at any rate, it isn't about abortions being objectively evil, it is about the goddess of pregnancy and birth being pissed by mortals messing around with pregnancies and births. You can also argue that you are messing around with the fate of the unborn, which is also her portfolio. Even keeping contemporary politics and morality out of it, it makes perfect sense that she would be against it.
Ironically, I think a big part of why she is against undead might come from a similar mindset. She is the being in charge of death, and deciding that, you know, **** the system, you are going to do your own thing and stay around won't sit well with her. She allows resurrection under some limits, but undeath is an affront to what she represents.
Edit: I can agree with Pharasma not being all that good, but I see her as quite LN in how she operates. Her Osiriani counterpart, Anubis, is LN without having a markedly more lawful bent (as far as I am aware).
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When you worship a deity as a Paladin you do fall lockstep with their mindset to a certain extent, because when you do worship a deity as a Paladin you do get their powers from them.
Common misconception. Clerics normally get their powers from their deities, paladins do not.
Clerics, druids, experienced paladins and rangers, inquisitors, oracles, the adept NPC class, the hunter hybrid class, the shaman hybrid class, and the warpriest hybrid class cast divine spells. Unlike arcane spells, divine spells draw power from a divine source. Clerics gain spell power from deities or from divine forces. The divine force of nature powers druid and ranger spells, and the divine forces of law and good power paladin spells. Divine spells tend to focus on healing and protection and are less flashy, destructive, and disruptive than arcane spells.
(Unofficial confirmation from James Jacobs here and here.)
The deity-specific paladin codes make sense when you consider the fact that paladins, being Lawful Good, like to join organizations with similar goals, such as religions centered around lawful and/or good deities. A paladin associated with these organizations will naturally take on their specific interests, and express these commitments as a formal code. Breaking a deity-specific code could still cause a fall even if the deity does not empower the paladin, because it would violate the general requirements that a paladin "respect legitimate authority" (ie the deity you've agreed to serve) and "act with honour" (eg no oath-breaking). Really it's the same thing as swearing fealty to a ruler, except you can have greater confidence that your deity will stick to consistent moral principles.
It's ultimately up to your GM whether he/she wants to follow the one-step rule with paladins. I personally would be OK with a paladin following certain TN deities such as Pharasma, in connection with a NG branch of the church. I would be less comfortable with a Paladin taking options that bound them particularly strongly to the TN deity and their goals, such as Deific Obedience or the Evangelist prestige class.
No way. We already know that Paladins of Abadar are all sexy, crossbow-wielding cowgirls.Granted I am more okay with the idea of a Paladin of Pharasma than I am with Paladins of Abadar, which are unfortunately a thing.I like to imagine Paladins of Abadar all have pompadours, slick grins, and ridiculous wives/sidekicks. They travel the countryside in tent shows explaining how their god wants them to be rich... at least until Starfinder, when they start their own television network...
And they all get the blues.
The thing to keep in mind is that the Paladin can "revere" one or more particular deities without actually being a core follower.
This is basically what you'd find with a Hellknight paladin of the Order of the Godclaw - the Godclaw pantheon is collectively LN, so it would be easy enough for a Godclaw paladin to omit Asmodeus from their reverence and pay their respects to a collective of LG and LN deities.
I didn't realize everyone hated Abadar that much.
Yeah, I'm not getting the references or the hate at all; he's the god of judges and law, after all.
Edit: Seems some published lore contradicted James' statements....interesting. Still James vision of her is decidedly different from the way many people appear to picture Pharasma. And even if she did join the fight against Rovagug, so did Asmodeus.
There's a 3.5 era AP article that suggests Pharasma helped against Rovagug, but it also said Nethys did, and he under current lore didn't exist yet. There may have been a couple of others like that. I take all of that stuff as retconned when the history of the gods and Golarion got more settled.
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I don't see why worshiping a god would have any impact on your alignment on it's own. If you participated in a religious ceremony that included an aligned action, that would affect your alignment, but simply paying homage to a god you agree with or simply worshiping the god your family worshiped wouldn't necessarily have any affect on your paladin-ness.
Ah, good catch! There is no Extra Smite feat.(And I plan on grabbing Extra Smite)Extra Smite?
If you choose oath of vengeance, extra lay on hands functions as extra smite.
I don't see why worshiping a god would have any impact on your alignment on it's own. If you participated in a religious ceremony that included an aligned action, that would affect your alignment, but simply paying homage to a god you agree with or simply worshiping the god your family worshiped wouldn't necessarily have any affect on your paladin-ness.
Except that the god is real. When you ask for Ugothoa's blessing there IS someone else on the other end of the line and they MIGHT actually pick up the phone and answer. When you are a paladin you do not allow yourself to be imbued with the forces of darkness. EVER.
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I don't see why worshiping a god would have any impact on your alignment on it's own. If you participated in a religious ceremony that included an aligned action, that would affect your alignment, but simply paying homage to a god you agree with or simply worshiping the god your family worshiped wouldn't necessarily have any affect on your paladin-ness.
The question is how worship works. A paladin who worships Iomedae (goddess of being a goodly knight in shining armour) has an easier time staying in touch with the Force of Law and Good. Abadar? Well, Law is a good thing, rgiht? Sarenrae? Good is a good thing, right?
Deviate too far from that LG core and it's hard to really justify. Asmodeus and Gorum are not exactly the gods of altruism. You can still honour them, and acknowledge their dvinity ... but when you worship Asmodeus, you're saying that his vision of the cosmos is the right one. If you worship Gorum, you're more interested in fighting than much of anything else.
Well, again, going back to the Hellknights, they do believe Asmodeus's vision of the cosmos is the right one... just so long as it's run and staffed by "people" and not "devils".
Whoa whoa whoa - what? No, they pick and choose what to emulate from the military structure and tactics of one of the greatest military forces in the universe.
The only Hellknight Order with any explicit religious component is the Order of the Godclaw, and they worship the lawful pantheon which does include Asmodeus, but equally revered alongside Abadar, Torag, Irori, and Iomedae.
The Hellknights are undeniably fascist, but LN is not LE. You can certainly make an argument that many Hellknights are so zealous in their convictions that they leave themselves naively easy to corrupt to evil on the Good/Evil scale, but that's only because they are dedicated wholly to Law versus Chaos.
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There's a 3.5 era AP article that suggests Pharasma helped against Rovagug, but it also said Nethys did, and he under current lore didn't exist yet. There may have been a couple of others like that. I take all of that stuff as retconned when the history of the gods and Golarion got more settled.
Edit: Seems some published lore contradicted James' statements....interesting. Still James vision of her is decidedly different from the way many people appear to picture Pharasma. And even if she did join the fight against Rovagug, so did Asmodeus.
They needed so much help against Rovagug, The Doctor pulled in gods from the future.
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Good luck getting rid of me! Why you'd have to pull Golarion into some sort of pocket dimension and wipe out all recorded history of how it was done to shut me up. But, I mean *nervous chuckle* they'll never do THAT...
Good luck getting rid of me! Why you'd have to pull Golarion into some sort of pocket dimension and wipe out all recorded history of how it was done to shut me up. But, I mean *nervous chuckle* they'll never do THAT...
I guess it's a good thing that prophecy is dead and there is no possible way that the future could already be written for you.
Isn't it?
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Shush! Don't tell him, he still thinks he's getting a puppy.
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Good luck getting rid of me! Why you'd have to pull Golarion into some sort of pocket dimension and wipe out all recorded history of how it was done to shut me up. But, I mean *nervous chuckle* they'll never do THAT...
So I know it works in other settings, but if you killed off all the worshipers of a God, erased all record of them and all that jazz, would that kill said God?
Hell, a Wish spell or two could in theory (depending on the DM I suppose) starve out any God or Goddess if that's true.
Good luck getting rid of me! Why you'd have to pull Golarion into some sort of pocket dimension and wipe out all recorded history of how it was done to shut me up. But, I mean *nervous chuckle* they'll never do THAT...So I know it works in other settings, but if you killed off all the worshipers of a God, erased all record of them and all that jazz, would that kill said God?
Hell, a Wish spell or two could in theory (depending on the DM I suppose) starve out any God or Goddess if that's true.
No. Golarion does not function on the gods need prayer badly principle.
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Mortals don't really get our music, I've discovered.
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Good luck getting rid of me! Why you'd have to pull Golarion into some sort of pocket dimension and wipe out all recorded history of how it was done to shut me up. But, I mean *nervous chuckle* they'll never do THAT...So I know it works in other settings, but if you killed off all the worshipers of a God, erased all record of them and all that jazz, would that kill said God?
Hell, a Wish spell or two could in theory (depending on the DM I suppose) starve out any God or Goddess if that's true.
... What kind of GM makes Wish powerful enough to kill at least thousands of people across at least continents, if not planets and/or planes anyhow?
I think we all know what the answer will be. It's best not to dwell on it. :-)
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You could theoretically worship a deity that isn't within one step of LG as a Paladin, but if you follow any of said deities teachings there is the possibility it may violate your Paladin Code, and you don't get the alternate Paladin codes which are available with some Deities like Erastil and Sarenrae.
If you worship a Neutral deity such as Pharasma, you could in theory be a Paladin... there just likely isn't a cohesive organization for Pharasman Paladins as there are for say Iomedae, though I'm certain there are some small organized groups of Inquisitors and a loose collection of Warpriests dotted amongst the clergy. But even so you'd be opposed to some of your deity's teachings, which doesn't forbid you from being a Paladin though it does forbid you from being an Evangelist. As well it is likely you'd be more devoted to traditional Paladin ideals rather than your religion if you worship something opposed to your character.
You also ABSOLUTELY cannot be an Evangelist AND a Paladin of a Deity that isn't within one step of LG. Since Evangelists HAVE to worship a single-deity, and the character HAS to be within one step of their deity.
Also, flavor aside there's little reason to choose Pharasma as a Paladin, they stand to gain nothing mechanical from the choice (the favored weapon is a dagger), you limit your Prestige options... It's just not a good choice mechanically.
Also given this is a home game, if I were GMing I'd personally allow worship as a Paladin of any deity aside from NE or CE; though CG, CN and LE would be very hard to justify as well (NN would be just fine for me)... you'd have to have a damn good RP reason for it. And even if I were limiting things to the core classes, I would make an exception in this case to allow the you to play an Inquisitor or Warpriest... since you want the Paladin style without the Lawful Good (which is something I'm totally in favor of). I'd also be open to working with the player to homebrew (or find an existing homebrew) a Paladin archetype for CG or LE alignments.
Except that the god is real. When you ask for Ugothoa's blessing there IS someone else on the other end of the line and they MIGHT actually pick up the phone and answer. When you are a paladin you do not allow yourself to be imbued with the forces of darkness. EVER.
So what? Not everyone has ranks in knowledge religion to recognize that the individual is evil, simply worshiping a god doesn't mean that your something like a disciple and simply worshiping a god doesn't give that god any power so in of itself it doesn't really affect anything.
Say a LG rogue and a paladin have very strong views on undead and afterlife judgement, why can't these two worship pharasma? What force stops them from giving pharasma a prayer now and again? It's not like the god even can imbue them with power outside of turning them into an oracle, since they don't meet the alignment restrictions of the god-tied divine classes, and being an oracle doesn't stop you from doing LG stuff at all and doesn't actually have a way to get you to become a servant of pharasma.