So recently, on a long term campaign we were ambushed by some human bandits, we killed some, some ran, and one dropped to his knees and plead for his life. My character, angered that he was attacked, killed him. The DM forced his alignment from Lawful Neutral to Chaotic Neutral. This means I can't take any more levels in monk, I want to optimize my character to my best possible ability, as I've lost too many characters and am behind on the XP train, Should I talk to him about changing alignment just for that? ( This character has been here for 2 sessions, and hasn't been unlawful beforehand ) what do I do?
Perhaps get an atonement spell and get your alignment switched back to LN, if your DM allows it.
I believe that an archer inquisitor is quite good but I don't know any builds off the top of my head. But it would work well with your current ability score setup as I assume you have a high wisdom score.
Unless you've pulled this kind of thing before, your GM is being a jackass. "Eye for an eye" may not be good, certainly, but well within a LN character's purview.
Ashram wrote: Unless you've pulled this kind of thing before, your GM is being a jackass. "Eye for an eye" may not be good, certainly, but well within a LN character's purview. Most of my characters I believe portrayed their alignments pretty well, except for one time with my paladin. Once our True Neutral rogue tortured a few people, and the wizard helped, yet they didn't have theirs changed, I think I might talk to him about it.
First of all, what level are you? If you are atleast Zen Archer 3, then you have gotten most of the good stuff.
And secondly, is this for PFS, or are your GM open for more options?
And lastly, have you discussed with your GM what "lawful" means? Most societies in a medieval setting would allow killing in self defense. Especially if they're bandits.
Killing someone who's given up should have more of an effect on your Good/Bad axis than your Lawful/Chaotic axis.
Unless you follow a personal code to never kill those who lack the will to fight (like a cavelier), then I don't really see how your GM ruled that as "chaotic".
Killing the bandit would most likely have been justified if you had gone through the proper process and gotten the facts.
He was just some mook, you're a Wisdom based PC class. Your Sense Motive probably far outweighs whatever Bluff he has, even if you lack significant ranks in the skill. Ask him if he has ever committed murder. Ask him how many times and for what reasons. He's been a bandit for five years. He killed people because being a farmer is too hard.
Then you coup de grace him in the name of Good and Law. You regret that it had to be done because he was a person, but you never regret doing it because he was the worst kind of person.
Praise Damerrich.
Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
I can see a DM maybe saying that killing someone after they surrender is pushing you toward LE, depending on the details.
But I don't see how the DM justifies the swing he did. Both because executing a prisoner is neither particularly lawful nor chaotic (you can justify it from either perspective pretty easily) and because even ignoring that jumping two degrees from a single action seems a bit much too.
Wonderstell wrote: First of all, what level are you? If you are atleast Zen Archer 3, then you have gotten most of the good stuff.
And secondly, is this for PFS, or are your GM open for more options?
And lastly, have you discussed with your GM what "lawful" means? Most societies in a medieval setting would allow killing in self defense. Especially if they're bandits.
Killing someone who's given up should have more of an effect on your Good/Bad axis than your Lawful/Chaotic axis.
Unless you follow a personal code to never kill those who lack the will to fight (like a cavelier), then I don't really see how your GM ruled that as "chaotic".
I along with one other PC am 6th level, and two others are 7th
I never really got what PFS was, if you are asking the setting, its a homebrew campaign that we are doing over Roll20, and we've known each other for a few years.
I have discussed Lawful/Chaotic with him, and it kind of caught me off guard when he told me to change my alignment to CN, and I don't follow a moral code except killing is bad etc.
DominusMegadeus wrote: Killing the bandit would most likely have been justified if you had gone through the proper process and gotten the facts.
He was just some mook, you're a Wisdom based PC class. Your Sense Motive probably far outweighs whatever Bluff he has, even if you lack significant ranks in the skill. Ask him if he has ever committed murder. Ask him how many times and for what reasons. He's been a bandit for five years. He killed people because being a farmer is too hard.
Then you coup de grace him in the name of Good and Law. You regret that it had to be done because he was a person, but you never regret doing it because he was the worst kind of person.
Praise Damerrich.
I hadn't talked to the man, it was sort-of out of spite, because he had almost killed me and one other person, and it was obvious that this ambush was planned and they intended to kill ( They ran through my friend with 2 ballista bolts, deadly )
Ninja Clam wrote: Wonderstell wrote: First of all, what level are you? If you are atleast Zen Archer 3, then you have gotten most of the good stuff.
And secondly, is this for PFS, or are your GM open for more options?
And lastly, have you discussed with your GM what "lawful" means? Most societies in a medieval setting would allow killing in self defense. Especially if they're bandits.
Killing someone who's given up should have more of an effect on your Good/Bad axis than your Lawful/Chaotic axis.
Unless you follow a personal code to never kill those who lack the will to fight (like a cavelier), then I don't really see how your GM ruled that as "chaotic".
I along with one other PC am 6th level, and two others are 7th
I never really got what PFS was, if you are asking the setting, its a homebrew campaign that we are doing over Roll20, and we've known each other for a few years.
I have discussed Lawful/Chaotic with him, and it kind of caught me off guard when he told me to change my alignment to CN, and I don't follow a moral code except killing is bad etc. PFS is an acronym for PathFinder Society, which means that some options aren't allowed.
If you are forced to multiclass now, then you would want to know if your GM plays with fractional BAB/Saves progression. Your Zen Archer was granted 0.75 BAB per level, which means you would now have 4.5 BAB.
If you're playing with fractional BAB, then this opens up more alternatives to what your next level will be in, as you could afford to dip into a caster class for Mage Armor/Shield.
Ninja Clam wrote: So recently, on a long term campaign we were ambushed by some human bandits, we killed some, some ran, and one dropped to his knees and plead for his life. My character, angered that he was attacked, killed him. The DM forced his alignment from Lawful Neutral to Chaotic Neutral. This means I can't take any more levels in monk, I want to optimize my character to my best possible ability, as I've lost too many characters and am behind on the XP train, Should I talk to him about changing alignment just for that? ( This character has been here for 2 sessions, and hasn't been unlawful beforehand ) what do I do? Well firstly, that alignment change was pretty stupid if it was the first time you did something like that. Like the others said, at most it should have pushed you towards lawful evil, although part of neutral is balancing out the good and evil side of things so, at that, you still should have been fine.
Secondly, an atonement spell is always an option to restore your initial alignment, if your DM doesn't let you use the spell as written to spite you or whatever his reasons may be, then I don't know, I feel sorry for you and your DM situation.
Lastly, a good multi class might be ranger or fighter. It would allow you to continue progressing your archery nicely, unless for some reason you wanted to go into a spellcasting class or arcane archer and just goof around with that. I don't know if you are going to be able to recover the character concept at this point with how badly you were messed over, but you can certainly try. There are other classes that have some good features that you can run with an archery build, I believe you can even get the fighter and ranger up to the same or maybe higher level of archery as the zen archer. You would probably have to read up on that though, I am not the archery type in my group, we already have a player (my dad actually), that loves that play style.
Had your character started putting out the ridiculous damage of the zen archer? The DM might have forced it so badly because he didn't want that in his campaign anymore. I know I had a player in Rise of the Runelords while I was DMing that played a zen archer, and it was terrible for me. I didn't try to destroy the character though, just made things a bit more difficult for them. Damn some of these characters can be frustrating as a DM, and sadly some DMs just decide to go the cheap route and cripple the character in a stupid way.
Nekrotanos wrote: Had your character started putting out the ridiculous damage of the zen archer? The DM might have forced it so badly because he didn't want that in his campaign anymore. I know I had a player in Rise of the Runelords while I was DMing that played a zen archer, and it was terrible for me. I didn't try to destroy the character though, just made things a bit more difficult for them. Damn some of these characters can be frustrating as a DM, and sadly some DMs just decide to go the cheap route and cripple the character in a stupid way. Well, probably, I was out DPSing the wizard. At 6th level I get 3 attacks at +11/+11/+6 to hit, and 1d8+8 damage, and can spend a ki point to get an extra attack ( I have 8 ki points ) and can use reroll an attack 6 times a day. I have 18 AC and 53hp. I originally was going to be a trip build, but then the main archetype I was going to use was overruled by my DM, so then I chose to be a zen archer. I entered the story as the Wizard's long lost brother, this is my first time playing a ranged character, and to be honest I think I should've gone with the trip build I originally intended but with a different archetype ( Flowing Monk, Grippli trip and use the tongue for disarming )
Ask your GM what part of lawful is violated by killing an enemy?
If he says its against the laws of a country, explain to him that lawful does not mean obeys the law (as in laws of countries).
Lawful means orderly, and that you often have a personal code.
Unless your personal code said something about not killing people who provoke you, you haven't violated your code. You killed someone who attacked you, that could actually be part of your code. Of course, that would probably be lawful evil and not lawful neutral.
But on it's surface I can see no good reason that the act would be considered chaotic.
Evil, yes. Chaotic no.
Further this single act shouldn't wholesale adjust your alignment, rarely should any single act adjust your alignment so dramatically.
And beyond that, a good GM should stop you and tell you that they think that continuing on the course of action you are about to commit will violate your current alignment ethos. Since you as a player and the GM do not necessarily agree on all matters of alignment you should receive a warning to know when you are violating the boundaries and can choose to continue to act, or adjust your action accordingly. Such actions that violate alignment should be wilful actions on the part of the character, no arising because GMs and players have different ideas of what good/evil/law/chaos encompass.
Ninja Clam wrote: Nekrotanos wrote: Had your character started putting out the ridiculous damage of the zen archer? The DM might have forced it so badly because he didn't want that in his campaign anymore. I know I had a player in Rise of the Runelords while I was DMing that played a zen archer, and it was terrible for me. I didn't try to destroy the character though, just made things a bit more difficult for them. Damn some of these characters can be frustrating as a DM, and sadly some DMs just decide to go the cheap route and cripple the character in a stupid way. Well, probably, I was out DPSing the wizard. At 6th level I get 3 attacks at +11/+11/+6 to hit, and 1d8+8 damage, and can spend a ki point to get an extra attack ( I have 8 ki points ) and can use reroll an attack 6 times a day. I have 18 AC and 53hp. I originally was going to be a trip build, but then the main archetype I was going to use was overruled by my DM, so then I chose to be a zen archer. I entered the story as the Wizard's long lost brother, this is my first time playing a ranged character, and to be honest I think I should've gone with the trip build I originally intended but with a different archetype ( Flowing Monk, Grippli trip and use the tongue for disarming ) I never imagined a trip build could be so powerful a part of it was ban worthy. What archetype were you planning on using?
Nekrotanos wrote: Ninja Clam wrote: Nekrotanos wrote: Had your character started putting out the ridiculous damage of the zen archer? The DM might have forced it so badly because he didn't want that in his campaign anymore. I know I had a player in Rise of the Runelords while I was DMing that played a zen archer, and it was terrible for me. I didn't try to destroy the character though, just made things a bit more difficult for them. Damn some of these characters can be frustrating as a DM, and sadly some DMs just decide to go the cheap route and cripple the character in a stupid way. Well, probably, I was out DPSing the wizard. At 6th level I get 3 attacks at +11/+11/+6 to hit, and 1d8+8 damage, and can spend a ki point to get an extra attack ( I have 8 ki points ) and can use reroll an attack 6 times a day. I have 18 AC and 53hp. I originally was going to be a trip build, but then the main archetype I was going to use was overruled by my DM, so then I chose to be a zen archer. I entered the story as the Wizard's long lost brother, this is my first time playing a ranged character, and to be honest I think I should've gone with the trip build I originally intended but with a different archetype ( Flowing Monk, Grippli trip and use the tongue for disarming ) I never imagined a trip build could be so powerful a part of it was ban worthy. What archetype were you planning on using? I planned on being a human with Racial Heritage ( Halfling ) and Underfoot adept.
Ninja Clam wrote: Nekrotanos wrote: Ninja Clam wrote: Nekrotanos wrote: Had your character started putting out the ridiculous damage of the zen archer? The DM might have forced it so badly because he didn't want that in his campaign anymore. I know I had a player in Rise of the Runelords while I was DMing that played a zen archer, and it was terrible for me. I didn't try to destroy the character though, just made things a bit more difficult for them. Damn some of these characters can be frustrating as a DM, and sadly some DMs just decide to go the cheap route and cripple the character in a stupid way. Well, probably, I was out DPSing the wizard. At 6th level I get 3 attacks at +11/+11/+6 to hit, and 1d8+8 damage, and can spend a ki point to get an extra attack ( I have 8 ki points ) and can use reroll an attack 6 times a day. I have 18 AC and 53hp. I originally was going to be a trip build, but then the main archetype I was going to use was overruled by my DM, so then I chose to be a zen archer. I entered the story as the Wizard's long lost brother, this is my first time playing a ranged character, and to be honest I think I should've gone with the trip build I originally intended but with a different archetype ( Flowing Monk, Grippli trip and use the tongue for disarming ) I never imagined a trip build could be so powerful a part of it was ban worthy. What archetype were you planning on using? I planned on being a human with Racial Heritage ( Halfling ) and Underfoot adept. Doesn't seem too bad, just some boosts to your trip ability.
Nekrotanos wrote: Ninja Clam wrote: Nekrotanos wrote: Ninja Clam wrote: Nekrotanos wrote: Had your character started putting out the ridiculous damage of the zen archer? The DM might have forced it so badly because he didn't want that in his campaign anymore. I know I had a player in Rise of the Runelords while I was DMing that played a zen archer, and it was terrible for me. I didn't try to destroy the character though, just made things a bit more difficult for them. Damn some of these characters can be frustrating as a DM, and sadly some DMs just decide to go the cheap route and cripple the character in a stupid way. Well, probably, I was out DPSing the wizard. At 6th level I get 3 attacks at +11/+11/+6 to hit, and 1d8+8 damage, and can spend a ki point to get an extra attack ( I have 8 ki points ) and can use reroll an attack 6 times a day. I have 18 AC and 53hp. I originally was going to be a trip build, but then the main archetype I was going to use was overruled by my DM, so then I chose to be a zen archer. I entered the story as the Wizard's long lost brother, this is my first time playing a ranged character, and to be honest I think I should've gone with the trip build I originally intended but with a different archetype ( Flowing Monk, Grippli trip and use the tongue for disarming ) I never imagined a trip build could be so powerful a part of it was ban worthy. What archetype were you planning on using? I planned on being a human with Racial Heritage ( Halfling ) and Underfoot adept. Doesn't seem too bad, just some boosts to your trip ability. I had the full build for a level 5, and then a day before the next session he said I couldn't use it, so I rolled up a zen archer, and he told me that zen archer was a really good class, so he might have been hinting that it was OP, but I didn't know at the time.
So, I'm talking with my DM about it, and he is saying that I played my character as either CN or CE, but he can't convert me from LN to CE at one time. He said my character was too often argued for the violent or brutish answers when there were very often other ones. Which doesn't really make sense to me, considering I let other characters do most of the answering to problems as my PC was new to the group.
Ninja Clam wrote: So, I'm talking with my DM about it, and he is saying that I played my character as either CN or CE, but he can't convert me from LN to CE at one time. He said my character was too often argued for the violent or brutish answers when there were very often other ones. Which doesn't really make sense to me, considering I let other characters do most of the answering to problems as my PC was new to the group. Tell him that without warnings about the perceived difference in alignment how could you know? He should have warned you that such behavior is not "in character" for a lawful neutral person, in his view and allow you to base your decision/actions based on that knowledge.
I mean, did he ever spell out exactly how he felt the different alignment combinations should act? Because if he didn't and you're not a mind reader, then you both have simply different opinions on appropriate behavior for alignments, which is an out of character issue that he is applying in character penalties for.
And again, whats he's saying wouldn't be grounds for chaos. Its grounds for moving you to lawful evil perhaps, but not CN.
It sounds like ultimately that he is unhappy that you character may be too powerful.
In that regard I would highly suggest you take level in Slayer or Ranger or Inquisitor and continue working on your archery. If you have 3 levels in Zen Archer only, it is a good point to stop if you were only going to dip so now you can play as if it was only a dip.
Ninja Clam wrote: So, I'm talking with my DM about it, and he is saying that I played my character as either CN or CE, but he can't convert me from LN to CE at one time. He said my character was too often argued for the violent or brutish answers when there were very often other ones. Which doesn't really make sense to me, considering I let other characters do most of the answering to problems as my PC was new to the group. I've gotten 6 levels in zen archer total. But we are having a really long conversation on morality, and if someone intends good but does bad if they are good etc. I'm totally willing to roll a new character if he thinks I'm OP, but don't really know how to say it.
Ninja Clam wrote: So recently, on a long term campaign we were ambushed by some human bandits, we killed some, some ran, and one dropped to his knees and plead for his life. My character, angered that he was attacked, killed him. The DM forced his alignment from Lawful Neutral to Chaotic Neutral. This means I can't take any more levels in monk, I want to optimize my character to my best possible ability, as I've lost too many characters and am behind on the XP train, Should I talk to him about changing alignment just for that? (This character has been here for 2 sessions, and hasn't been unlawful beforehand ) what do I do? Perhaps he'll let you switch to a Martial Artist? That's a Monk archetype that can be of any level.
As an aside, alignment restrictions on Classes is beyond stupid in my opinion.
There is nothing non-Lawful about being extremely violent towards people that just attempted to kill you. If you're attacking and killing people for no reason, sure. That's both Chaotic and Evil. Justice without mercy is a hallmark of some LN societies.
I don't think your GM understands the alignments. I would try and figure this out with him, even if his primary motivation is because he doesn't like the power of your character, because it could have further implications down the road.
_Ozy_ wrote: There is nothing non-Lawful about being extremely violent towards people that just attempted to kill you. If you're attacking and killing people for no reason, sure. That's both Chaotic and Evil. Justice without mercy is a hallmark of some LN societies.
I don't think your GM understands the alignments. I would try and figure this out with him, even if his primary motivation is because he doesn't like the power of your character, because it could have further implications down the road.
Agree. Lawful is a preference for order, not morality.
Alright, after a long talk with my DM he says that he thinks he changed it a bit too quick and that he'll change it back and warn me next time. And I told him that if he ever feels that I'm too OP the party wizard can jolt me with magic and turn me into a grippli monk, which is what I was going to do before the underfoot adept, thanks for all your help guys, I wouldn't have had the confidence to talk to him about this without you guys!
I know the issue is resolved by now, but maybe you want to go this route instead: I think a Primal Hunter Barbarian would be very good both mechanically and flavor wise. This builds on the fit of rage your character had and basically turns it into what your GM thought your character developed into.
Zen Archer is a pretty front-loaded archetype, with the last outstanding level being level 6 (Improved Precise Shot). Your character actually gets stronger with +2 to hit and damage from rage, plus the other barbarian stuff (including possibly extra armor from Savage Barbarian or DR from Invulnerable Rager, and of course rage powers like Superstition, Scent (awesome if Pheromone Arrows are allowed, and of course Reckless Abandon).
Ninja Clam wrote: Well, probably, I was out DPSing the wizard. Which is just as it should be - archers are supposed to be the kings of DPR.
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