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You and three friends are playing a game of Pathfinder with a new GM. Suddenly, he gets angry because you're not roleplaying hard enough; you're not taking the game seriously enough. He pulls out a wand and zaps you - you're transported to Golarion!
As soon as you're transported, you and your friends get to collaborate to make new characters. Whatever character you make, you get all the requisite knowledge and skills of that character plus whatever you know from your real life here on Earth. While making characters, you have access to every Paizo book, plus the PRD, D20PFSRD, and The Archives of Nethys.
Game rules:
You're playing an AP, but you don't know which one.
If you beat the AP, you are transported back to the time and place you got sucked into the game.
If your character dies and is not brought back to life within one week, you die. No going home.
Character creation rules:
15 Point Buy
Any Paizo material
All archetypes available.
Two starting traits (any, even campaign traits).
What party would you and your friends make to give yourselves the best chance at surviving the AP? In other words, how OP of a four person party can you make?
Well, off of the top of my head I think I would have to stick to the basics. More or less:
Conjuration God Wizard: Open with improved initiative and maybe even Toughness (If I didn't want my friends possibly ruined on a crit). Discuss item creation feats after we know which campaign we're involved in.
Life (Or Animal) cleric: Of some bent. Clerics are really strong classes in and of themselves. Being able to heal and buff allies (And at higher levels bring them back from the dead) is a perk.
Reincarnated Druid: Again helps with survivability for me and my friends. Admittedly it loses out on 2 levels of wild shape. Which may be a dealbreaker for some. But since the emphasis I have is on getting out alive I feel like a Druid in and of itself can still contribute meaningfully. (Plus it gets an animal companion and contributes more healing/control to the team)
Sorcerer: Unsure on bloodline. Sylvan possibly (With the Boon Companion feat that would eventually allow the party to have 2 fully realized Animal Companions. 3 if the cleric goes Animal Domain.) But having another 9th level arcane caster in general is very effective, also one that can focus on ranged attacks. On top of having someone that can abuse their charisma score and take spells that would allow the party to obtain more meatshields companions.
Okay, but if we really take the challenge seriously and use every rules exploit we can to make OP characters, do we get re-zapped for power-gaming?
Edit: I definitely have GOT to watch The Gamers one of these days . . . .
Okay, but if we really take the challenge seriously and use every rules exploit we can to make OP characters, do we get re-zapped for power-gaming?
Nope. A deals a deal. You survive, you get out and can go on your way.
Really, I just made up some backdrop for making up an entire optimized party. Most people look at optimized characters without worrying about how they'll fit within a party. I'm curious to see some optimization on the party level, where optimized characters are blended together in an effective way.
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Okay, but if we really take the challenge seriously and use every rules exploit we can to make OP characters, do we get re-zapped for power-gaming?
Nope. A deals a deal. You survive, you get out and can go on your way.
Really, I just made up some backdrop for making up an entire optimized party. Most people look at optimized characters without worrying about how they'll fit within a party. I'm curious to see some optimization on the party level, where optimized characters are blended together in an effective way.
I'll just repost my answer from another thread with explanation:
I would happily argue that Druid/Sage Razmiran Priest Sorcerer/Shaman/Master Summoner is one of the strongest possible teams. I'll unpack exactly what synergies make this combination so strong.
Druid - Druids can fill a number of roles in party from front line meleer, to battlefield control, to healing, to skills especially very important WIS skills like Perception. Especially helpful during early levels 1-5 where the Animal Companion is an extremely reliable free combatant. The Druids effectiveness tapers off at the higher levels, but can still perform it's roles well.
Master Summoner - Wielding a Skill Eidolon and a versatile long duration set of summoned monsters, the Master Summoner is mostly Battlefield control via Summon and buffing. Master Summoner's get a number of valuable buff spells "early" which helps make the low levels much easier. Can use their Eidolon as a powerful skill user as the Skilled Evolution is an incredible +8 at low levels with important skills like Perception and Sense Motive as Class Skills. At later levels, Master Summoners become versatile problem solvers using the massive toolbox Summon Monster provides to address problems on the fly. Doubles as a face.
Shaman - In counter to the Druid and Master Summoner, the Shaman is aiming for the late game. At low levels, the Shaman is at their weakest (particularly level 1), but eventually grows into a much more powerful and even more versatile problem solver. Can cover a variety of roles simply by switching spirits, and can prepare key spells off the Sorcerer/Wizard list at the earliest possible level. Serves mostly as a debuffer, providing Save or Die Slumber from level 2. Synergizes very well with the Razmiran Priest Sorcerer by converting Sorcerer/Wizard spells with expensive material components into divine scrolls, which the Sorcerer can use cost free out of a 1 level higher spell slot.
Sage Razmiran Priest Sorcerer - In terms of set-up this character takes the longest to get going. Thanks to Sage, the Sorcerer can use INT which has the side-effect of giving the Sorcerer a ton of skills to put to use. Covers the Trapfinding role with help from Aram Zey's Focus. Can also be a highly effective face with correct traits. Covers battlefield control and debuffing with Sorcerer list. Works as a back up healer thanks to Divine Scrolls at level 9+. Works in combination with Shaman to get party access to powerful cost free spells. At high levels, the Sorcerer can fill all roles effectively while providing a massive amount of skills, early spell access, and a staggering amount of high cost spells at no cost.
In this set-up the Druid/Summoner shine early on while while the Shaman and Sorcerer take over at later levels. All of them can cover a number of roles and have a lot of flexibility and unique abilities to bring to the table.
I would go either Bladebound Kensai or Synthesist (not unchained).
While neither has the raw power of an optimized wizard or barbarian, both can be built to be very survivable without dumping too much in other areas. With only a 15 pt. buy, Sythesist is probably the better choice. With a 20 pt. buy, I would go Kensai.
It seems unfortunate that most APs include some world devastating danger which has to be confronted since it might be fun to never finish the AP and live in Golarion if I were a super powerful PC.
I played a Paladin 4 / Bard 13 in Kingmaker who was pretty good at surviving though he was 17 point buy (The DM was having trouble deciding between 15 and 20) and perhaps a little dumber than I'd actually want to be.
Being a Summoner seems appealing since they're powerful and it is easier to imagine myself being in command of extra-planar creatures than suddenly being a highly skilled swordsman. Of course DMs are also more likely to "screw over" summoning based PCs by making "no summon zones", so I'd be curious as to whether the DM has to run the AP "as written".
When I first came up with this idea, I had the following in mind:
Blaster Sorcerer
Conjuration Wizard
Halfling Hospitalar Paladin
Goliath or Standard Druid
The paladin and Druid provide all the healing you'll need to survive. Especially the paladin at mid levels. And they both provide a solid damage base and divine spells. The sorcerer and paladin can focus as the party face and on ranged damage (Druid and summons will be the Melee damage, if needed). The wizard is the intelligence and tactician; wizard and sorc both provide arcane support.
I'd want every member to be a caster in some format, and every one will be taking leadership at level 7 or as soon as they can. Money will be spent on crafting, and anyone who can craft will be spending every minute of down time crafting in some format (potions, scrolls, or more). And they'll be hiring plenty of retainers for extra support. PCs get plenty of gold, so a few thousand is better spent on having extra hands and eyes to back you than another magical trinket.
Tactics generally include attacking at range and ensuring that no enemy gets close. Block them with magic or summons, set up traps, and in general control the terrain and the battle field.
With all that said, however, I really like Anzyr's answer.
15 point buy may change the constituents of the party. You can't have MAD classes, because they would not be OP as opposed to classes that rely on one or two attributes. That said:
Wizard conjurer teleportation, great at any point buy. Summoning is diverse, great versatility, very hard to pin down with swift action teleport.The skill points can allow the wizard to cover any roles you might need.
Reach cleric: Two prepared casters is enough to help you navigate almost any problem. Reach cleric is a bit worse at 15 pts, but they have amazing buffs for self and party, can contribute in melee and control the battlefield with aoo and even more summons. Add the ability to remove conditions. You have amazing number two for melee and a real tank. (Fate's Favored makes many divine cleric spells awesome).
Barbarian: You need some muscle, hard to get better than the barbarian. You could go Druid here, but at a 15 pt buy I think you buy more with the barbarian. Barbarian is going to kill hard, especially because...
Bard: Party face, extra skills, extra awesome buffing. Even at a 15 pt buy you can probably build into a decent archer, having two ranged combatants and two melee (and summons galore) is very effective the bard is a force multiplier.
This would be my go to party. Buffing, debuffing, battlefield control, damage, high to hit where needed. I might have a different perspective from a 20 pt buy, but this would be my choice.
Good point about the 15 pont buy tending to hose MAD concepts; you probably need Dual-Talent Humans to get even somewhat MAD concepts (like the Reach Cleric and Archer Bard) to work (and the Reach Cleric is probably going to have to hard-dump something, and the Archer Bard may need to at least soft-dump something).
Summoners are supposed to be pretty good on low point buy.
Of course, it could be worse -- you could be forced to use your own stats (at least, that would be worse for me -- somewhere in the range -3 to +6 point buy).
Chained Summoner with combat optimized eidolon.
wild shaping melee focused Druid with combat optimized companion.
melee focused Reach Cleric.
God Wizard.
So you have the following for frontliners:
Eidolon, Companion, Cleric, Druid.
Then the summoner hangs back and buffs/debuffs (Mostly haste)
Then the wizard plays god.
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Here goes a goofy entry.
Shadow Oracle, Battle Oracle, Life Oracle, Heavens Oracle.
Shadow Oracle takes the revelations related to shadowcasting and fills the role of a god mage at high levels, by being to emulate any conjuration(summoning/creation) or evocation spell on the fly while having decent shadow reality. The Shadow Oracle would probably also grab Extra Traits to get both Magical Lineage and Wayang Spellhunter for Shadow Conjuration and then retrain them both for greater version.
Battle Oracle fills the role of a Big Stupid Fighter and helps go through level 1 alive.
Life Oracle boosts the survivability of the party significantly (no deaths is important here) and revives anyone who dies.
Heavens Oracle makes the early game smooth with Awesome Display, taking off at level 2.
All of them specialise differently with their spells known. D8 helps with durability at low levels. Inflict spells help with damage bursts at low levels.
Druid, Dual Cursed Lunar Oracle, Sylvan Sorcerer, and Sanctified Slayer Inquisitor. 3 Animal Companions and an Inquisitor take the front, the oracle gives buffs and debuffs, druid controls the field, and sorcerer lays out blasts, and some arcane-only utility. Out of Combat you have 2 faces, a trapfinder (summon rats until the inquisitor gets trapfinding), a textbook, and enough utility options to laugh at physical challenges.
Alternatively, if truly all material is allowed, then play a Color Out of Space Heavens Oracle, a yithian elder wizard, a Veiled Master Druid, and a Mezlan investigator. But I'm guessing its only supposed to be PC races.
If I have access to any book, then I'm gonna use a first printing ARG to make a halforc scarred witch doctor with tons of Con.
What if I don't want to go home after the AP?
You're not the first person to ask that. You can stay, but at any time the GM can pull you back if he feels like it. If you die and aren't raised within a week, you're dead forever.
Sacred servant oath vengeance paladin (would change this to bloodrager if evil AP if I can)- Str and chaRemember, you don't know which AP it will be until after you start. Are you planning on picking up a paladin and then multiclassing to the bloodrager?
Alternatively, if truly all material is allowed, then play a Color Out of Space Heavens Oracle, a yithian elder wizard, a Veiled Master Druid, and a Mezlan investigator. But I'm guessing its only supposed to be PC races.
The biggest issue I see with those is that there are no rules for a PC to pick a monstrous race with full CR outside of the Advanced Race Guide.
But even if you could, how would that roleplay out? Most normal races wouldn't deal with a monster and might try to kill you on sight. It'll make surviving the AP much more difficult. So you better hope the AP you end up in is much more combat focused than social focused.
If I have access to any book, then I'm gonna use a first printing ARG to make a halforc scarred witch doctor with tons of Con.
A one person party is unlikely to survive very long. ;)
I would go either Bladebound Kensai or Synthesist (not unchained).
While neither has the raw power of an optimized wizard or barbarian, both can be built to be very survivable without dumping too much in other areas. With only a 15 pt. buy, Sythesist is probably the better choice. With a 20 pt. buy, I would go Kensai.
It's a 15 point buy. Also, no matter how strong the class is, a one person party is unlikely to survive the entire AP.
The biggest issue I see with those is that there are no rules for a PC to pick a monstrous race with full CR outside of the Advanced Race Guide.
But even if you could, how would that roleplay out? Most normal races wouldn't deal with a monster and might try to kill you on sight. It'll make surviving the AP much more difficult. So you better hope the AP you end up in is much more combat focused than social focused.
For RP, the oracle would have to stay away from town, but the Yithian could mind swap with a commoner for social adventures, and the other two can change shape to look like humanoids. Actually, starting the oracle out of space with one level of crossblooded undead/serpent sorcerer with magical knack could be a good idea. You take disguise self and now look human for a few hours a day.
As far as playing monsers...
On the other end of things, perhaps your world is mcuh more extravagant than the implied world. In this case, you might allow your players to play characters of races other than those detailed in chapter 2. The Pathfinder RPG Bestiary has many non-standard races to choose from...
Then, considering the number of PC races in later books, we can assume this applies to all Bestiaries. Of course, this is still a joke.
The biggest issue I see with those is that there are no rules for a PC to pick a monstrous race with full CR outside of the Advanced Race Guide.
But even if you could, how would that roleplay out? Most normal races wouldn't deal with a monster and might try to kill you on sight. It'll make surviving the AP much more difficult. So you better hope the AP you end up in is much more combat focused than social focused.For RP, the oracle would have to stay away from town, but the Yithian could mind swap with a commoner for social adventures, and the other two can change shape to look like humanoids. Actually, starting the oracle out of space with one level of crossblooded undead/serpent sorcerer with magical knack could be a good idea. You take disguise self and now look human for a few hours a day.
As far as playing monsers...
On the other end of things, perhaps your world is mcuh more extravagant than the implied world. In this case, you might allow your players to play characters of races other than those detailed in chapter 2. The Pathfinder RPG Bestiary has many non-standard races to choose from...Then, considering the number of PC races in later books, we can assume this applies to all Bestiaries. Of course, this is still a joke.
I see where you're coming from, but I think you're making a mistake here. The alternate playable races in the bestiaries are clearly labeled with a "[race] characters. [list of racial traits for a PC]."
For example, in bestiary 1, Drow, goblins, and hobgoblins all have this option. You can't just pick any given monster with its entire CR abilities and then slap a class on top of it and call it good for a PC. The monster race actually has to have a character option attached to it. That's what the rules you're citing mean.
Actually, there are rules for that.
Fair enough!
In this case, we're trying to start an AP with an effective level 11, level 14, and two level 15 PCs.
So pretty much an end-game party to start any given AP. I don't know about anyone else, but every AP I've read starts at level 1.
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I would happily argue that Druid/Sage Razmiran Priest Sorcerer/Shaman/Master Summoner is one of the strongest possible teams. I'll unpack exactly what synergies make this combination so strong.
I presented this party to my group.
It was decided that one of my players was not allowed to play the summoner, because he'd just use it to make puns.
"I summon a panther and tell it to steal something. Look, it's a cat burglar!"
"That's it! No more monkeying around! I summon an ape!"
"You betrayed me! You ratted us out! (Summon a giant rat)"
"(Summon a Fire Elemental); Man you're doing so good, you're on fire!"
"You might think you're playing fair, but I think you're a cheetah!"
"This fight is a bore (summon boar)"
"When the moon hits the sky like a big pizza pie, it's a Moray (eel)"
I can't speak for the rest of my friends, but I'd be going with my Oradin build I put together in another thread.
That or a bard. I enjoy playing support.
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>Whatever character you make, you get all the requisite knowledge and skills of that character plus whatever you know from your real life here on Earth.
>whatever you know from your real life here on Earth.
Have you read "The Mysterious Island" by Jules Verne? Whatever party I make, Pathfinder is going to face the wonders of gunpowder, electricity and rocketry, and it is not going to like it.
Whatever party I make, Pathfinder is going to face the wonders of gunpowder, electricity and rocketry, and it is not going to like it.I had similar thoughts, but soon realized that my own technical knowledge is lacking. Is yours sufficient? Quick, you're teleported to Golarion, how do you make rockets and electricity? Remember, no looking anything up.
I suppose it might be possible to augment the understanding a modern human would have with in-character knowledge checks and divination magic - at the very least, you'd know the right questions to ask.
I have all relevant detailed information on my phone(like a 4000 page reference book that contains pretty much every relevant physical property of common and not so common materials you can think of), so if I am teleported there with my clothes, I will be fine.
As far as my personal knowledge without any information sources?
For electricity you would need an acid and two metals with different oxidation voltages, which serve as kathode and anode. I believe lead and copper should work just fine, but you can just make a bunch of tests to find the best combination possible. Would need to do that either way, to check if things like Mithril or Adamantine are any good for that.
Rockets are very easy. A basic solid rocket fuel is just basically anything that burns well enough. To make a solid-fuel rocket you just stuff it into a tube sealed from one side and light it up. Gunpowder mixed with clay(to slow down the burn) works nicely, and both exist in PF. Not to mention actual fireworks(also something already present) After that it is a lot of tweaking, mostly-for example, Gunpowder is a mix of(If my memory serves me right) saltpetre(aka potassium nitrate, oxidiser), coal(aka carbon, fuel) and sulfur(not sure what it did, maybe another oxidiser/catalyst), so you can try to find an oxidiser that oxidises better, or a more efficient fuel source.
*checks to see if memory was correct*
Sulfur is another fuel, not another oxidiser. Other than that, yeah, all seems to be correct.
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Sounds like the opening to the old D&D cartoon. Sooooo, our first level party gets a single magic item each to start with; and we have to fight Tiamat AND some homebrew demon wizard villain thing? At first freakin level?
I hate this campaign!
Another suggestion that would work in every party. Every person should obviously take Leadership, it is just ridiculously good. If they have animal companions, they should take it too.
Then, all cohorts take a feat for an animal companion, and insure their companions have at least 3 int. All cohorts and cohot's animal companions take Leadership too.
All second-order cohorts again, take animal companions and leadership, and so on.
APs are usually designed for 4 PCs. When you have a team of 16, it should be a cakewalk.
Dwarf (for Stonecunning) alchemist (beastmorph, vivisectionist) with the Trap Finder campaign trait from Mummy's Mask and the Infusion discovery
Cleric (probably Erastil with either Animal/Feather or Animal/Fur, as well as Plant/Growth; most likely an elk companion used as a mount); alternately an oracle (probably Life mystery for the most healing)
Druid (reincarnated druid; VMC barbarian) with a big cat totem guide animal companion, Eschew Materials, Natural Spell (retrain the 5th level feat at 6th level), and Rage Power (Moment of Clarity) at 11th
Ranger 1/wizard (probably an Evocation/Admixture blockbuster/controller) 6/eldritch knight 2/arcane archer 3/eldritch knight +8 with the Magical Knack (Wizard) trait, Craft Wondrous Item at 3rd, Craft Magical Arms and Armor at 5th, and Arcane Discovery (Fast Study) with the bonus feat at wizard 5
The alchemist can deal with locks and traps. The alchemist, cleric, and druid are strong in melee. The cleric and ranger/wizard are strong archers. Between them, the cleric, druid, and ranger/wizard have access to almost every spell. The alchemist can prepare infusions to improve buffing action economy. All four can act as healers to some degree (with wands, at least).
Well okay:
All PCs are Strix, because flying speed lets you escape lots of enemies.
• One cleric for healing and buffs and resurrection
• One Alchemist bomb thrower who makes infusions (especially long arm) for the party, maybe chirurgeon archetype in case the cleric goes down.
• 2 fighter/martials with improved/greater trip, fury's fall, combat reflexes, lunge, combat patrol and reach weapons.With long arm, enlarge person and other reach increasing stuff, the martials will hover above enemies, trip them, AoO, AoO again when they stand up and trip AoO them when they want to move, because they cannot reach the fighters. When you need even more reach, combat patrol on
Against flying enemies...well, we might be f$!+ed. Cleric could prepare some spells for that case or Alchemist might chose stuff like a tanglefoot bomb
Since you've got 2 martials that might both be Fighters, go whole hog on the Fighter choice, and then build to switch hit to ranged combat, including second (or even first) choice of Weapon Training, and get Ace Trip so that you can shoot down airborne enemies.
I have all relevant detailed information on my phone(like a 4000 page reference book that contains pretty much every relevant physical property of common and not so common materials you can think of), so if I am teleported there with my clothes, I will be fine.
{. . .}
You will have detailed information on your phone (assuming it isn't Cloud-dependent) . . . For a few hours. No way to recharge your phone.
Paladin, druid, reach cleric, wizard.
Well okay:
All PCs are Strix, because flying speed lets you escape lots of enemies.
• One cleric for healing and buffs and resurrection
• One Alchemist bomb thrower who makes infusions (especially long arm) for the party, maybe chirurgeon archetype in case the cleric goes down.
• 2 fighter/martials with improved/greater trip, fury's fall, combat reflexes, lunge, combat patrol and reach weapons.With long arm, enlarge person and other reach increasing stuff, the martials will hover above enemies, trip them, AoO, AoO again when they stand up and trip AoO them when they want to move, because they cannot reach the fighters. When you need even more reach, combat patrol on
Against flying enemies...well, we might be f$!+ed. Cleric could prepare some spells for that case or Alchemist might chose stuff like a tanglefoot bomb
Since you've got 2 martials that might both be Fighters, go whole hog on the Fighter choice, and then build to switch hit to ranged combat, including second (or even first) choice of Weapon Training, and get Ace Trip so that you can shoot down airborne enemies.
I have all relevant detailed information on my phone(like a 4000 page reference book that contains pretty much every relevant physical property of common and not so common materials you can think of), so if I am teleported there with my clothes, I will be fine.
{. . .}You will have detailed information on your phone (assuming it isn't Cloud-dependent) . . . For a few hours. No way to recharge your phone.
>No way to recharge your phone.
Yes way. All you need is 5 volts of DC current, which is something you can produce with enough potatoes, not to mention actual acid-based batteries you can make.
If you are going to recharge a phone, you are going to have to do a lot of work without access to the knowledge stored on it (again, assuming that the knowledge is really on the phone and not in the Cloud that you can't access any more). Good luck making the right micro-USB (or whatever your phone uses) connector properly, and good luck getting your potato battery voltage right so that you don't just fry your phone.
For the science ideas - I absolutey love them.
However, there are two problems that must be overcome:
1) Since you're being transported into a new character (aka new body), you're not taking any of your equipment with you. Only your mind and knowledge. So for any given science experiment, you would have to be able to do those right now without any internet support and without any logistical support. You won't have infrastructure (electricity, plumbing, supply lines, manufacturing facilities to make materials or purified materials) or appropriate glassware or tools or anything when you show up in Golarion, and some of the materials you need may be called something else. All these issues means that it takes time and money to conduct the experiments to recreate the technology you want.
2) You're required to actually play the AP, which means you may not have the time or resources to conduct the experiments needed. Hope you get Kingmaker or Skulls and Shackles - those are the only two APs I can think of that would grant the time needed to conduct the experiments and put you in a position to reliably get the required materials. Some APs don't give you any down time at all.
As long as you can overcome the limitations of knowledge, materials, time, and expense - you should be able to do some nifty stuff with modern tech, provided you can actually recreate some of the stuff.
One big advantage the scientifically minded have, however, is the knowledge for how to properly conduct experiments and critically think in order to maximize the efforts put forth. That alone can provide a huge advantage.
My first thought was to be a Paladin, but what if the AP turns out to be Hell's Vengeance?
My first thought was to be a Paladin, but what if the AP turns out to be Hell's Vengeance?
Pact Servant Paladin of Asmodeus should work fine.
Builds aren't what will make a group OP. Foreknowledge and the retraining rules would allow you to adjust to the AP choice after the fact, so why even bother saying "you don't know the AP". So that level 1 is more dangerous? Then you do initial creation toward 1st level survival (everyone takes Toughness?) and adjust at 2nd/3rd to actually become OP from that point on. And if you can recall most of the AP once you recognize it, you really shouldn't have trouble surviving. Who needs Divination magic when you know all the main encounters to begin with?
Builds aren't what will make a group OP. Foreknowledge and the retraining rules would allow you to adjust to the AP choice after the fact, so why even bother saying "you don't know the AP". So that level 1 is more dangerous? Then you do initial creation toward 1st level survival (everyone takes Toughness?) and adjust at 2nd/3rd to actually become OP from that point on. And if you can recall most of the AP once you recognize it, you really shouldn't have trouble surviving. Who needs Divination magic when you know all the main encounters to begin with?
That will be rather expensive and time consuming. It also requires a trainer or it takes twice as long to retrain. So I hope you get an AP that allows for all this. I take it all your builds will start with absolutey zero equipment so you can afford it. Either that or all of your characters take the rich parents trait. Which ain't a bad choice for the low levels; not optimal, but not a bad choice.
It takes 5-7 days and 50-70 GP to retrain your class, another 5 days and 50 GP to retrain your level 1 feat, and another 5 days and 50 GP to retrain your skill points. And that's assuming a trainer is available. Double the time if one isn't available.
So you're looking at 150-170 GP and 15-17 days to retrain your class at the beginning of an AP, and even longer and more expensive for each level you go up. Every AP I've played doesn't have that kind of time available for the PCs (and only a handful of classes have that kind of starting cash), so I doubt you'd be able to do this before you start the AP.
You can't even retrain your stats, so I hope the class you want to retrain into works well with the ability score spread you've already chosen.
This plan *could* work, but it requires you to be lucky with the AP and a solid plan for how to do it - because once you're in the world, you no longer have access to the books and rules of the game, except by your own memory.
Builds aren't what will make a group OP. Foreknowledge and the retraining rules would allow you to adjust to the AP choice after the fact, so why even bother saying "you don't know the AP". So that level 1 is more dangerous? Then you do initial creation toward 1st level survival (everyone takes Toughness?) and adjust at 2nd/3rd to actually become OP from that point on. And if you can recall most of the AP once you recognize it, you really shouldn't have trouble surviving. Who needs Divination magic when you know all the main encounters to begin with?
That will be rather expensive and time consuming. It also requires a trainer or it takes twice as long to retrain. So I hope you get an AP that allows for all this. I take it all your builds will start with absolutey zero equipment so you can afford it. Either that or all of your characters take the rich parents trait. Which ain't a bad choice for the low levels; not optimal, but not a bad choice.
It takes 5-7 days and 50-70 GP to retrain your class, another 5 days and 50 GP to retrain your level 1 feat, and another 5 days and 50 GP to retrain your skill points. And that's assuming a trainer is available. Double the time if one isn't available.
So you're looking at 150-170 GP and 15-17 days to retrain your class at the beginning of an AP, and even longer and more expensive for each level you go up. Every AP I've played doesn't have that kind of time available for the PCs (and only a handful of classes have that kind of starting cash), so I doubt you'd be able to do this before you start the AP.
You can't even retrain your stats, so I hope the class you want to retrain into works well with the ability score spread you've already chosen.
This plan *could* work, but it requires you to be lucky with the AP and a solid plan for how to do it - because once you're in the world, you no longer have access to the books and rules of the game, except by your own memory.
Sorry, I was not suggesting retraining right at level 1 or switching class. Retraining Feats or other aspects at level 2 or later would be doable in most APs money-wise, though you are correct some may be problematic time-wise for certain APs. Also, the entire point of this is having a solid party plan, I don't think luck would play any part beyond the random rolls during encounters.
Foreknowledge of the AP will provide more benefit than any build. This of course may only apply to those of us that read and/or run all of the APs and have pretty good recall about them. There are enough of them that no one probably will remember every detail, but they'll remember the important bits. Entire swaths of Knowledge checks will be unneeded in every AP. Key opponents will not be a surprise and in many cases can be researched prior to the encounter. Betrayals, surprises, ambushes, and DM-only plot information could all be ruined. Combine that with a full caster (prepared becomes way better than spontaneous at this point) and there won't really be any significant challenge. Also, Item Creation also becomes nearly mandatory if the AP will reward treasure as-written and/or not make the Magic Mart available.
Darkbridger, I wholeheartedly agree.
Arcanist, utility and CC (abuse Sacred Geometry since "everything is legal").
Cleric or Shaman, Buff and Condition Removal (Shaman is slower to pick up but potentially has way more channels and versatility).
Gray Paladin, Melee Hammer (still has self-heal via Lay On Hands and can function in any non-evil campaign).
Bard/Cavalier/Battle Herald, Ranged Hammer and Support (you can stack some crazy attack and damage bonuses with this combo since Battle Herald scales Inspire Courage too - I've seen one grant +10 attack / +10 damage, +4 Fortitude, +4 Reflex, and +4 CL and Concentration checks simultaneously).
Even with a 15-pt buy this should function well. The arcanist only needs INT and a little Cha/Con to function well, the Cleric/Shaman focuses on Wis and Cha for spells and channels, the Paladin doesn't need as much Cha due to the loss of Divine Grace, and the Battle Herald can afford to focus Dex and doesn't need as much Str due to performances.
Here goes my actual entry.
GOD diviner wizard(likely human) for all control and buffing spell needs, who also maxes out Knowledge[engineering], craft[alchemy] and some other relevant skills to help with the technological revolution this party is about to bring. Also gets Craft Wondrous Item, and if the particular AP allows, Craft Construct line of feats, perhaps shifting it to their cohort. O, and they take Sacred Geometry.
Wildshaping ranger 5/druid drider with an animal companion to obliterate enemies in melee, tank and do some minor supporting action. Enough in wisdom to be able to cast spells, but most of the points go into martial abilities. For first 5 levels they only take ranger levels, then at lv 5 they take Animal Ally. Levels 6+are all druid, selecting animal companion instead of domain, and replacing their currently existing one with a big cat. Why go to all this effort? Well, animal ally's levels stack with levels from druid, so by the time you reach lv9, your AC's level will be higher than your character's level. If you later can retrain your ranger levels into druid, it gets even better.
Necromancer-cleric drow noble for a small army of bloody skeletal minions(created with Blood Money. Drow nobles can "sometimes" have different SLAs, so this particular one replaced his faerie fire with blood money) that can be thrown at enemies with little to no care, to absorb hits and generally be the frontline. Since it's a cleric, he's not a slouch in the melee either, even if he mainly focuses on spells.
Last one is probably either a Paladin, another Cleric, an Oracle or a Vitalist(I hear they are quite good at keeping the party alive and kicking). Vitalists in particular can insure that nobody dies for any longer than one round, though this is only possible at relatively high levels.
All of them obviously take Leadership, there isn't even a question. I don't know what cohorts to pick, but I am sure you can think of something, like just picking any other party submission from this thread. Cohorts take leadership too, because why not. If any animal companion gets to 3 int, they take leadership too, because why not?
Wizard and their cohort abuse crafting and simulacrum creation, necromancer handles armies, vitalist buffs and ensures everyone stays alive no matter what happens, druid deals ridiculous damage with their double pounce. Seems like a balanced party to me.