Have been looking at the mechanics of flying under the fly skill, and trying to understand how it would operate in combat.
So let's say that my character flies into melee range to attack in a round (assuming moving more than half the movement). The next round, he would have to make a fly skill check. If he doesn't make the 15 DC to hover, he would not be able to make a full attack and in fact, would have to move at least half his movement, which would thus trigger AoO.
Did I get that right?
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andreww above pretty much covered how it works. But also remember (and this is the same for climb and swim speeds) that a creature with a fly speed still needs to make fly checks. Granted, without some mitigating circumstances or conditions, they likely will make the check automatically. But PCshe won't necessarily be able to without a significant investment in the skill.
Thanks for the clarification. Never thought about it, but the idea of a roc doing aerial acrobatics is quite intriguing... :)
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Quite a few naturally flying creatures are not actually graceful flyers. They're not always good at sharp turns or hovering in place to full-attack.
That's basically what the Fly skill measures; your ability to move exactly where you want to, instead of needing to fly mostly straight ahead just to stay in the air.
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Owner - Enchanted Grounds, President/Owner - Enchanted Grounds
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Be ready for table variation on the 5' step, too. That's certainly not how I run it, as a 5' step is not a move action. I consider it a hover check. Because if you MOVE, you are giving up your full attack.
Also be aware of armor check penalties, the difference between flying up and flying down, etc. I.E., a potion of fly is not a character's cure all vs flying opponents.
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A 5ft step is still moving, not hovering in place. But it's probably less than half your movement. So if you can pass that DC 10 fly check to move less but not the DC 15 to hover, you can still 5ft step and make a full attack; but you may have to leave flanking position because you have to move a bit.
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Owner - Enchanted Grounds, President/Owner - Enchanted Grounds
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I'm not going to agree with you, Lau.
If you are in combat on the ground and you move 5 feet (NOT a 5' step), say because you want to draw an attack of opportunity and get a use out of a fire shield or allow your rogue to more easily get into position, you are using a move action. A 5' step is a "non-action" that is NOT a move action. Air combat is no different when it comes to movement rules.
You, however, are not likely to agree with me. I'll follow your interpretation at your table. You follow mine at my table.
Like I said, expect variation.
Edit: By the way, Yu Kee Lin, with regards to the "variation" front, I have run into many GMs who simply hand-wave flying and treat it as though it were a 3D version of ground combat. Fighters decked out in full plate while using tower shields, who have no points in the fly skill whatsoever, are able to make 5' steps straight up at those tables.
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That's why I roll them for my druid with out even consulting the GM. If the GM does not use the fly skill as much, it is your responsibility as a player and fellow gm to remind him.
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Edit: By the way, Yu Kee Lin, with regards to the "variation" front, I have run into many GMs who simply hand-wave flying and treat it as though it were a 3D version of ground combat. Fighters decked out in full plate while using tower shields, who have no points in the fly skill whatsoever, are able to make 5' steps straight up at those tables.
This is certainly the simplest thing to do, and I think that's why a lot of people do it. Especially if you have one of those folks at your table who has a flying animal companion, and you've already spent 20 minutes at the beginning of the game explaining to him why he really ought to have at least one rank in "Handle Animal" and how the animal companion is not just another limb. At that point, you balk at the idea of spending another 20 minutes explaining to him that there are actually rules for flying that he really should know if he's going to bring a flying animal companion to the table.
However, I would argue that it's bad for GMs to hand-wave things this far. Both Yu Kee and Drogon's interpretation of what fly check is necessary for a 5-foot step are reasonable (I use Yu Kee's, but can certainly see the argument for the other). Just ignoring flying rules are not.
Another thing to remember: you don't get to move horizontally your move and then declare that your altitude is whatever you want it to be. If you're going to fly normally, you can climb only at a 45 degree angle, which means one cube up for each cube horizontal. (Yeah, squares become cubes. Really we need 3d holotanks for combat instead of flat maps and counters or miniatures.) So, you can't get to any altitude, and you probably can't go as far as you think you can. You can climb at steeper angles, but that both uses up more move and requires a fly check. Flying down at a steeper angle is easier, but still uses up move.
That's why I roll them for my druid with out even consulting the GM. If the GM does not use the fly skill as much, it is your responsibility as a player and fellow gm to remind him.
Yes! But you are a more responsible player than most. (I do have one guy in my area in mind here as I say this.) Often people bring flying companions to the table, or summon eagles, and have no idea that there are even fly rules. So, a GM should at the very least tell players they need to look them up. On the other hand, you have to decide if it's worth it; I have had players get annoyed with me when I start telling them that their summoned eagles have to make fly checks to hover in place.
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That's why I roll them for my druid with out even consulting the GM. If the GM does not use the fly skill as much, it is your responsibility as a player and fellow gm to remind him.And when the Gm says he doesn't want to deal with it?
If you're a responsible player, just roll them, and state the results. Lose altitude if you fail the check. Fall and take damage. Whatever.
Or, just go with it and accept that you're not really following the rules. This has the advantage of not making you feel annoyed when other players and NPCs have superpowered hoverpacks instead of actually flying like you are.
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Gotta agree with Drogon. A 5-foot step is not 'moving' by the rules definition of moving. So you can't draw a weapon-like object if you have a BAB of +1 or higher while taking a 5-foot step. And it would not count as movement for anything that required you to 'move' at least 5 feet.
Moving 5ft with a 5ft step is certainly movement, it just isn't a Move Action;
Full-Round Action: A full-round action consumes all your effort during a round. The only movement you can take during a full-round action is a 5-foot step before, during, or after the action. You can also perform free actions and swift actions (see below).
In your argument you're mixing up moving in general with "a move", as in, a Move Action used to move up to your speed;
If you have a base attack bonus of +1 or higher, you may draw a weapon as a free action combined with a regular move.
That option is described under the list of classic Move actions, so that's you you don't get to do it during a 5ft step.
Or indeed, looking directly at the definition for 5ft step:
Take 5-Foot Step
You can move 5 feet in any round when you don't perform any other kind of movement.
So what is the relation with fly checks?
Without making a check, a flying creature can remain flying at the end of its turn so long as it moves a distance greater than half its speed.Move less than half speed and remain flying 10
Hover 15
The Fly skill doesn't talk about Move Actions, it talks about movement. And a 5ft step is movement.
I'm still very new to Pathfinder so you might want to take my opinion with many pinches of salt.
On 5 foot step (under miscellaneous actions)
> You can move 5 feet in any round when you don't perform any other kind of movement.
So while a 5 foot step is not a move action, it doesn't negate that fact that you did move (on your own volition), specifically moving a distance of 5 feet. I don't think the rules state that 5 foot step is not moving. Rather, under Move Actions: "The simplest move action is moving your speed. If you take this kind of move action during your turn, you can't also take a 5-foot step." So it seems to be that while a 5 foot step is not a move action, it is still a move. In other words, during one round, you can either choose to move up to your speed using a move action, or move 5 feet using a 5 foot step, but not both. They are just two different ways you can move in one round.
Does this make sense?
Anyway, would just check with the DM at the start of each game. Just interesting to debate the meaning behind the rules. :)
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That's why I roll them for my druid with out even consulting the GM. If the GM does not use the fly skill as much, it is your responsibility as a player and fellow gm to remind him.And when the Gm says he doesn't want to deal with it?
Then I roll for my own stuff. It's the gms table, they can run it as they see fit. At least I know I'm playing by the rules and can feel better about it. Not worth getting into a argument over and ruining the fun for everyone else. But after the game I will talk to the GM and go over the flying rules. The NPC flyers are not exempt from fly checks.
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Probably the most important one is to make a fly check when you're damaged to avoid losing 10 feet of altitude. Although this doesn't provoke AoOs, it can alter the tactics of the situation. E.g., you might fall out of flanking, or no longer be in a position to attack the person you wanted to attack without moving. It's only DC 10... but if a PC has no ranks in it (which will be very common for the fighter on whom the wizard just cast fly), or if the monster's check sucks (e.g. Manticores have fly -3), it can come into play.
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The checks to make when damaged or colliding with something while flying only apply if you're using wings to fly. So if your using a Fly spell, Flight hex, or other non-wing magical flying, then you never have to make those checks.
It's also worth noting that the Fly spell and things that say they work like the spell (witch's Flight hex, among others) give good maneuverability, which is an automatic +4 on fly checks. They also get a bonus on fly checks of half the caster level of whoever put it on them (so that's +2 for Potions of Fly). So even an untrained fighter chugging a potion gets +6 on their fly check... before their dex and armor check penalty.
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Well, for a lot of monsters, they can't fail anything but fly straight up...
Without a list of monsters and their fly score, I can't say for certain whether this is true or not. But for 1 example, a harpy has a +12 Fly, that means they have to roll a 3+ to hover. Unlike Climb and Swim, having a fly speed does not allow you to take 10 on fly checks in combat. So every round a harpy tries to hover they have a 10% chance to fail.
The fly spell has the adder that "Using a fly spell requires only as much concentration as walking" Which makes for an argument not to bother with all the checks unless you're doing something fancy
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Probably the most important one is to make a fly check when you're damaged to avoid losing 10 feet of altitude. Although this doesn't provoke AoOs, it can alter the tactics of the situation. E.g., you might fall out of flanking, or no longer be in a position to attack the person you wanted to attack without moving. It's only DC 10... but if a PC has no ranks in it (which will be very common for the fighter on whom the wizard just cast fly), or if the monster's check sucks (e.g. Manticores have fly -3), it can come into play.
This is only necessary for creatures with wings.
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The fly spell has the adder that "Using a fly spell requires only as much concentration as walking" Which makes for an argument not to bother with all the checks unless you're doing something fancy
That just means it doesn't take an action, it doesn't excuse you from the skill checks if you need to make them. Although depending on caster level and your dexterity/armor, most checks could be easy.
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But as noted in the fly skill itself, you only need to make checks if you're doing something fancy. If you're just moving in a straight line for more than half of your move speed, and not ascending at more than a 45 degree angle, then no fly check is necessary.
While we're on the subject, the fly skill says, "You cannot take ranks in this skill without a natural means of flight or gliding." Does Feather Fall count?
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On acrobatics: I allow it while flying. Mainly because I love cinematics. But there will be some GMS who either are unsure or won't allow it. So be ready for table variation on that.
The careful flyer feat from ultimate intrigue kind of doesn't make sense if you can't make acrobatics checks to avoid AoOs while flying. I know it doesn't explicitly state that you gain the +2 bonus to acrobatics while flying, but it definitely seems to be the intention.
For those who don't own ultimate intrigue:
You move with ease when you fly at a slower rate.
Prerequisites: Acrobatic, Fly 5 ranks.
Benefit: As long as you take a move action to fly, even
when moving less than half your speed, you do not need
to succeed at a Fly check to continue flying. When moving
less than half your speed in a round, you also gain a +2
bonus on Acrobatics checks to avoid attacks of opportunity
and a +2 bonus to your AC against attacks of opportunity
you provoke because of movement.
Normal: You must succeed at a Fly check to continue
flying unless you move at least half your speed.
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I agree with Yu Kee Lim. I allow 5 ft steps while flying, but you're moving less than half your speed, so it requires a fly check.
I don't think anyone is arguing you can't take a 5-foot step while flying. The argument is: "Do you need to make a DC 15 check to Hover in order to make a 5-foot step, or do you need to make a DC 10 check to move less than half you movement in order to make a 5-foot step?"
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While we're on the subject, the fly skill says, "You cannot take ranks in this skill without a natural means of flight or gliding." Does Feather Fall count?
You are by no means flying with Feather Fall. You are simply falling more slowly. So if Feather Fall counted, so would the ability to fall.
...unless you wanted to use the following definition:
"There is an art to flying, or rather a knack. Its knack lies in learning to throw yourself at the ground and miss. ... Clearly, it is this second part, the missing, that presents the difficulties."
While we're on the subject, the fly skill says, "You cannot take ranks in this skill without a natural means of flight or gliding." Does Feather Fall count?
I usually go with the approach that anything that has you make a Fly check counts. As Feather Fall doesn't ask for Fly checks, it doesn't count.