That was the second book of the Gord the Rogue series.
Is it sad that I actually remember those books?
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Oh, and to reply to an earlier comment, daggers/knives make terrible crowbars. Indestructible or not, the lever arm is too short.
Many historical daggers were longer than modern crowbars.
RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32
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I figure hacking through most material with a an adamantine weapon is a lot like hacking through dense Styrofoam. If I handed you a sealed Styrofoam cooler and a big knife and told you to use said knife to open said container, it's going to happen. It'll be messy and loud and fragile things inside the cooler might suffer a bit but you'll get through. If I hand you a mace or greatsword the mess and damage go up.
I just think foam like that is a good example of a material that has hit points but no real hardness. If anyone remembers what a phone book is, try to imagine cutting one of those. No hardness, but the thickness still makes it not "knife through butter."
I would continue to allow them to do it.
It isn't as quick, and it is certainly more noisy and messy. You aren't going to be able to close it correctly again.
It sounds like the players are having fun. Why change that?
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Just a FYI.
Not quite adamantine, but given how scarce iron weapons were that far back, it would have been adamántinos.
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I'm just thinking of a recent game where the players applied their adamantine "universal lockpick" to a treasure chest they were too lazy to try and pick. They were less happy when I described the tinkling of broken glass and how a multicolored liquid began to leak out of the bottom of the chest. They managed to open it, but the potions and scrolls within were all destroyed(scrolls by the liquid from the potions).
Loud and violent brute force solutions often work, but can have unintended consequences. To me, that's sufficient reason to use them as a last resort.
Makes sense if the brute force solution was to break a hole in the chest with a greataxe and the treasure gets smashed in the process.
Though in the context of the OP, where the "brute force solution" is to break the lock with an adamantine dagger, the destruction of all the treasure within mostly just tells us some unfortunate things about the kind of person the GM is.
Even with a greataxe, I might have the potion vials be busted, but why would all of the (probably rolled up) scrolls be destroyed?
But destroying all of it due to an adamantine dagger going through the lock is just an example antagonistic GM punishing players for playing the 'wrong' way.
Exactly. People seem to think that ignoring hardness less than 20 means suddenly everything they hit is like butter.
While I don't necessarily say everything is like foam, I would say it is exactly like what it is. If you are trying to slice a pillow open, it's not like air. It's still like cutting a pillow open. There is absolutely no difference between stabbing a block of ice (hardness 0) with a steel dagger and stabbing a block of ice with an adamantine dagger. Your dagger doesn't just drive through the block into the cutting board, and then through the cutting board. If you hit for 3 damage, it's 3 damage whether that's a masterwork silver dagger, an adamantine dagger, or a +3 dagger of life stealing (you would do 3 more damage from the +3 though). You will not cut through a 4-foot thick wall of ice (hardness 0) any faster.
People get Lightsaber-on-the-brain effect. It's a different game and even if both ignore hardness they are not the same weapons, they may have the same property, but they're not the same thing.
Yeah, but now you have a weapon that can cut through wood, iron, steel, and even mithral as easily as it cuts through ice. That's not a lightsaber, but it's not nothing either.
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Yeah, but now you have a weapon that can cut through wood, iron, steel, and even mithral as easily as it cuts through ice.Exactly, and how much easier does it cut through ice? Not any easier than anything else at all in the world.
How does being adamantine make it function better as a lockpick? It might be harder to break (not indestructible, I think people are confusing it with Adamantium from Marvel's Wolverine). Hard, yes, durable yes. Doesn't make it function better as a paintbrush, a lockpick, or a towel other than how durable it is.
Sounds like you're trying to apply a +2 skill bonus to an item without paying the associated costs or using an actual item that is made to do the job, like a crowbar, or a ram, or a MASTERWORK set of tools.
Can we please stop with the strawmen? The example is not about picking the lock. It is about bypassing the lock.
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Any adamantine weapon against a lock is just a low-tech version of this. It will destroy the mechanism, no lock picking required.
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When I worked a pool we used to have locks left on the lockers every monday. Didn't matter how good the lock was, steel chisel and a sledge hammer and it popped right off.
Give me something harder than tungsten and put a point on it and you have a serious demolition tool.
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I say let them do it. If you're that worried, maybe word's getting around and a wizard is getting paid to cast hardening by paranoid people.
There's nothing as painful as a player as finding a new, clever way of doing things, to succeed a few times and then the GM says 'Now you've had your fun a few times, you can never do this again, because balance'
The dagger would essentially be a crowbar at that point. It isn't being used as a weapon. In this case, I would assign a +2 circumstance modifier to the disable device check.And what is your reasoning for this houserule? I can use a piece of coal to substitute for ink to write something, but that doesn't mean I should a get the same bonus as using quality ink.
A crowbar supposedly gets a +2 to Strength bonus for Forcing doors or chests and the like (supposedly, I am going with pfsrd which isn't loading Crowbar or Portable Ram description from the equipment list.
You are suddenly claiming that anything use to pry something open suddenly becomes a crowbar? A knife? A piece of rope? An iron ration?
You are also saying that using a dagger is now just the same as they guy who purchased, not a just a thieves' kit, but a MASTERWORK thieves' kit (for a +2 bonus to Disable Device)? Does that make any sense? Let me guess, because it's an expensive dagger, that means it's automatically a lockpick too? At what point does cost subsume also granting +2 bonuses to skill checks? The fact that it's masterwork?Would a mithril dagger give me a +2 to Acrobatics check if I hold it because it's so well-balanced? Your houserule is fine in your game, I just don't see a valid argument or evidence that supports it.
It's not a house rule. It's actually something that I, as GM,am encouraged to do by the rules in the Core book.
I could decide that the crowbar, if it was adamantine, could also get the +2 circumstance bonus in addition to the +2 strength bonus. That would make the crowbar better than the dagger. The masterwork dagger would not gain any additional bonus because it's not being used as a weapon. A masterwork crowbar could get a bonus should I decide that it's appropriate. That's my prerogative as GM.
Rather than make stupid assumptions, you could just ask the question. I didn't base anything on price. I based it on the material and the way it's being used.
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It's only a lock. If you take this option away they will just find another one. It is not really worth the effort to try to stop this. I would just let them know it makes a lot of noise.
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I imagine the characters are not stabbing at the padlock (that's silly), but sticking it in between the lock bars and prying, similar to an indestructible crowbar. Ergo, the inappropriate weapon rule probably should not apply.
Improbable. A dagger has a short handle, you can't get the leverage.
What you do is to cut way the bolt or the hinges.
It work even if not perfectly, it still is a tool made do different things. An adamantine chisel would be better.
both solution leave a broken lock/door behind.
To the OP: Beside all the other considerations, look the rule about magically hardening walls. 500 gp for a 10'*10' area, an increase of 10 points of hardness and double hp.
That would make stone doors immune to the adamantine items ability to bypass 20 points of hardness, and the cost is relatively low for the NPC you encounter in a high level adventure.
"Mundane" locks, doors and chests shouldn't be a problem for adventures of even middle levels, they are speed bumps, meant to deplete part of the duration of round/level and minute/level spells, not obstacles.
Those that are meant to be obstacles should be hardened end enhanced appropriately.
Making a material that bypassed all hardness was one of the most short-sighted ideas that came along. A material that ignored half the hardness of any material below 20 would have been just as awesome.
It don't "bypassed all hardness", it is "bypass any hardness lower than 20". Big difference in a game where most magically enhanced items get an hardness of 20+.
Where/what is the rule option for magically hardening walls?
It is not something I would use all the time, but there are times it would be nice to have.
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Where/what is the rule option for magically hardening walls?
It is not something I would use all the time, but there are times it would be nice to have.
The one I have found first is here: walls but I am fairly sure it exist in other section of the books with the same or similar text.
Walls
The walls that guard castles and cities are sturdy fortifications, usually constructed in a series of 5-foot squares. A square of wall has an AC of 5, and hardness and hit points equal to its type.
Squares of walls can be magically treated. Doing so doubles the hardness and hit points. Magically treating wall squares costs 500 gp per wall square. A spellcaster with the Craft Magic Arms and Armor feat can magically treat walls.
When a wall gains the broken condition, its hardness is halved, but the wall is not breached. Only destroying a section of wall allows it to become breached. When a square of wall is breached, any sections directly above it fall onto the missing section of walls. Doing this reduces the falling wall section to half its current hit point total –1, which applies the broken condition to that square of wall.
Then there is the hardening spell linked a few posts above.
My take is that the hardening of walls described above is more of a enchanting or alchemist process than casting a spell.
I recall readying somewhere (probably in the 3.0 ed. Strongholds book) that it require the Craft wondrous items feat.
Edit: Pizza did find the reference about the Craft woundrous items.
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My players have dealt with arrow shooting traps, poison needle in the lock and so on by cutting a hole in the back of the chest since 1980.
Annoying? Maybe the second or third time (the first time was "clever"), then I adapted and took it for granted.
When the first level guy without any idea about disabling devices doing it break immersion a bit, but after all, with a lot of patience I was capable to open my hose window shouters while equipped with a flexible identity card. And surely i don't have spent skill points in disable device.
All I had as a guide was some crime novel.
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To the OP: Beside all the other considerations, look the rule about magically hardening walls. 500 gp for a 10'*10' area, an increase of 10 points of hardness and double hp.
That would make stone doors immune to the adamantine items ability to bypass 20 points of hardness, and the cost is relatively low for the NPC you encounter in a high level adventure.Where/what is the rule option for magically hardening walls? It is not something I would use all the time, but there are times it would be nice to have.Likely in the Dungeon section, describing types of walls typically found.
These walls are stronger than average, with a greater hardness, more hit points, and a higher break DC. Magic can usually double the hardness and hit points of a wall and add up to 20 to the break DC. a magically treated wall also gains a saving throw against spells that could affect it, with the save bonus equaling 2 + 1/2 the caster level of the magic reinforcing the wall. Creating a magic wall requires the Craft Wondrous Item feat and the expenditure of 1,500 gp for each 10-foot-by-10-foot wall section.Last time I checked however, doubling the hardness of a stone wall (8) still came out to less than 20 for adamantine purposes.
He might have a different source though, since he's getting 10 x 10 for 500 gp and +10 hardness... which still doesn't bring a stone wall to 20 hardness assuming I understand math.
That is why when making a serious wall with the help of magic you cast wall of iron to make a intermediate layer between the outer part and the inner part. ;-)
It stop those pesky earth gliding earth elementals too.Seriously, to enhance it a bit, you only need to say that the stone that was used is basalt or some other hard stone instead of some other, softer, construction stone. Hardness 8 is very generic, sandstone probably has less than that, for limestone is about right, granite has more hardness.
Where/what is the rule option for magically hardening walls?
It is not something I would use all the time, but there are times it would be nice to have.
Ultimate Combat also covers that.
I just think foam like that is a good example of a material that has hit points but no real hardness. If anyone remembers what a phone book is, try to imagine cutting one of those. No hardness, but the thickness still makes it not "knife through butter."Exactly. People seem to think that ignoring hardness less than 20 means suddenly everything they hit is like butter.
While I don't necessarily say everything is like foam, I would say it is exactly like what it is. If you are trying to slice a pillow open, it's not like air. It's still like cutting a pillow open. There is absolutely no difference between stabbing a block of ice (hardness 0) with a steel dagger and stabbing a block of ice with an adamantine dagger. Your dagger doesn't just drive through the block into the cutting board, and then through the cutting board. If you hit for 3 damage, it's 3 damage whether that's a masterwork silver dagger, an adamantine dagger, or a +3 dagger of life stealing (you would do 3 more damage from the +3 though). You will not cut through a 4-foot thick wall of ice (hardness 0) any faster.
People get Lightsaber-on-the-brain effect. It's a different game and even if both ignore hardness they are not the same weapons, they may have the same property, but they're not the same thing.
How do you not come up with this?
Lets take wood for example. Wood has a hardness of 5 and 10 HP/inch of thickness.
So, a strong person (+1 str) cannot in any way break a 1" thick wood door with a light pick. But if it were a Adamantine light pick, it would take a maximum of 5 swings.
So the same swing, with the same style weapon, using the same force, damages the same material COMPLETELY differently.
If I were trying to break a lock with an Adamantine Dagger, I would use the dagger as a punch and hit it with the pommel of my weapon, or a chair leg, or creatures bone, or whatever club like item I could find.
And I assure you, it would work and break only the most fragile of items inside. Almost zero force would be transferred to items inside the chest.
Well, in that event I would recommend just the basic Take 10 (and the Take 20 just for Arcane Lock), though I am assuming a Rogue or such in the party.
(Disable Device examples)
Unfortunately, you would again be wrong. Because the rogue in this example is not using thieves' tools, masterwork or otherwise. He's using an adamantine dagger.
My point was that the OP either wants them to stop using an adamantine dagger, yet presumably not bog down the game.
The simple answer: get a set of Masterwork Thieves' Tools and actually use Disable Device, and do Take 10 where possible, and roll or Take 20 otherwise.
It takes 1 minute of game time. About the same as the adamantine dagger method (which I was in no way suggesting is a masterwork tool for anything [beyond slicing bread]).
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Well, in that event I would recommend just the basic Take 10 (and the Take 20 just for Arcane Lock), though I am assuming a Rogue or such in the party.
(Disable Device examples)
Unfortunately, you would again be wrong. Because the rogue in this example is not using thieves' tools, masterwork or otherwise. He's using an adamantine dagger.
Actually using thieves tools can include sawing away a stubborn lock and several other destructive options.
What you do using the Disable device skill is never explained and one of today common practices in RL is to freeze the lock and then shatter it with pone blow.Disabling device isn't necessarily "opening them with extreme care without leaving any sign".
A common thieves tool for ages has been a drill.
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I really don't see the issue at all. Many years ago my car at the time had the door lock forced by a thief with a screwdriver. An incident that I am sure has also occurred to many other people. I'm sure the tech level of the lock on the 1980's car was higher than that found on the average dark age/medieval door. I'm also certain that the screwdriver wasn't adamantine.
So a player using a dagger to force locks isn't unrealistic and is a technique employed by many real world thieves. Because the dagger is adamantine the rules say he bypasses hardness, making the job easier. He still has to hit it hard enough to do damage though. That will make noise and should trigger any trap and may dislodge or disturb anything fragile inside.
If the player were to argue that the dagger would just slide in without any effort, ask how the dagger doesn't cut through it's own scabbard (particularly when moving around)and slice through the earth until it reaches the core and is suspended in zero net gravity.
Well, in that event I would recommend just the basic Take 10 (and the Take 20 just for Arcane Lock), though I am assuming a Rogue or such in the party.
(Disable Device examples)
Unfortunately, you would again be wrong. Because the rogue in this example is not using thieves' tools, masterwork or otherwise. He's using an adamantine dagger.
Actually using thieves tools can include sawing away a stubborn lock and several other destructive options.
What you do using the Disable device skill is never explained and one of today common practices in RL is to freeze the lock and then shatter it with pone blow.
Disabling device isn't necessarily "opening them with extreme care without leaving any sign".
A common thieves tool for ages has been a drill.
This is heading into the same territory as "I make an intimidate check" vs "I keep cutting off fingers until he tells us what we want to know". At some point, it stops being a skill check and starts being...something else. Something that isn't well represented by a simple skill check. Where that line lies isn't clear, but in this case we know the following:
a)Disable Device checks on locks can be repeated ad-nauseum without any penalty or other significant effect. The only time a roll matters is when a character succeeds.b)Success on a Disable Device check opens the lock. While it's admittedly debatable, opening the lock and destroying it aren't really the same. The door is being opened in both cases, but the lock is being destroyed with the dagger.
c)It is impossible for untrained characters to use Disable Device. In more concrete terms, a character needs a significant amount of training or self teaching in order to open a lock. If a character could reasonably come up with a method of defeating the lock on the spot without specialized tools* and make it work despite having no training in defeating mechanical devices, then it cannot be a disable device check.
Taken together, using a weapon to destroy the lock of a door is not in line with a Disable Device check to open the lock. Opening a lock with a Disable Device check requires training, leaves the lock functional and has no meaningful effect on a failure. This is the exact opposite of how breaking a lock with an "Adventurer's Lockpick" works.
*Specialized tools being things like Skeleton Keys - items which are specifically designed to remove the requirement of expertise. An exceptionally sharp dagger is about as much of a specialized tool as a Battering Ram. In fact, both are being used in a similar way - bypass mechanical locking mechanisms via sheer force.