Armed Bravery / Improved Bravery


Rules Questions


2 people marked this as FAQ candidate.

I'm kinda on the fence of these two..

Armed Bravery - You apply your bravery bonus to will saves. Does this mean you still have bravery's normal bonus too?

Most of the time you get abilities that replace out something like Side Step Secret states you use your cha instead of your dex for your ac bonus.

But Armed Bravery doesn't say you gain your bravery bonus to all will saves instead. So, could be double the effect?

Improved Bravery - Now this one improves the bravery bonus to be instead of just fear, but against all mind-affecting effects.

Imp Bravery can be further augmented with the bravery aura from ultimate intrigue.

So Assuming both don't stack, which is better to have?


Marking for interest.


They would stack, they are different benefits.

The Armed Bravery is strictly better. It doesn't change the bonus...it adds a new bonus to all will saves, and adds another bonus equal to twice bravery to Intimidate checks to affect him.

Improved Bravery being changed to all mind-affecting would still stack.

Is there a way for a fighter to avoid the CHa pre-req? Because cha is the dumpstat for a fighter.

They are both equally annoying to get. Armed Bravery is an AWT feat, and fighters get far too few of those, and too slowly. IB's Cha pre-req is a kick in the teeth. Cha is firmly the very LAST stat a fighter wants to have to buy to 13. There is literally NO class ability a fighter has that uses Cha, except intimidation.


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Bravery is a single source, so you could never apply it twice to the same saving throw.

Since they don't stack, Armed Bravery is better for the fighter, since mind-affecting is basically a subset of will saves in general.


Das Bier wrote:

They would stack, they are different benefits.

The Armed Bravery is strictly better. It doesn't change the bonus...it adds a new bonus to all will saves, and adds another bonus equal to twice bravery to Intimidate checks to affect him.

Improved Bravery being changed to all mind-affecting would still stack.

Is there a way for a fighter to avoid the CHa pre-req? Because cha is the dumpstat for a fighter.

They are both equally annoying to get. Armed Bravery is an AWT feat, and fighters get far too few of those, and too slowly. IB's Cha pre-req is a kick in the teeth. Cha is firmly the very LAST stat a fighter wants to have to buy to 13. There is literally NO class ability a fighter has that uses Cha, except intimidation.

You do know you can use a bonus combat feat or a regular feat to pick up the AWT feats right?

Anycase the biggest problem I see with Armed Bravery is that you have to be armed with a weapon from that category with it. Otherwise you just have normal bravery.

And there are lots of times you don't have your weapon in your hand. Like Diplomatic meetings for example. Unless you are unarmed focus.


Calth wrote:

Bravery is a single source, so you could never apply it twice to the same saving throw.

Since they don't stack, Armed Bravery is better for the fighter, since mind-affecting is basically a subset of will saves in general.

There are two different things going on.

The first Changes Bravery. That's one thing.
the second is adding an additional bonus. They are completely separate actions.

Another example would be a feat changing your Str Bonus to damage to instead be to HP and Fort saves. And then having another feat that added your str bonus to DR. You still have a str bonus, it does something different now, but it's just a number. Armed Bravery just looks at the number, not what it does, Bravery changes what it does.

By your definition, Armed Bravery wouldn't stack with Bravery, since fear is a subset of will saves. Yet it does.

If Improved Bravery granted an 'additional bonus' to all mind-affecting...I'd be leery of letting it stack with Armed, but it might still be possible because they are different bonuses against different effects.

As it stands, they stack. Improved Bravery modifies Bravery, and Armed Bravery is derived from bravery.
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Darche,

only the weapon master can use combat feats without limit for AWT feats.

Otherwise,you have to obey the 1/5 levels or give up a weapon group.
That means, at 5th level, you must spend a GENERAL feat if you want an AWT option.

You don't get another chance for one until 9, when you can lose a weapon group and any dream of ever being a switch-hitting fighter.

Then at 10, 13,15, 17 and 20.

You see that? 2 of these feats before level 10. Just, ugh.

That is a good point that the weapon must be wielded, i.e. in hand, to get the benefit. Advantage, IUS, I guess.


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Das Bier wrote:
Calth wrote:

Bravery is a single source, so you could never apply it twice to the same saving throw.

Since they don't stack, Armed Bravery is better for the fighter, since mind-affecting is basically a subset of will saves in general.

There are two different things going on.

The first Changes Bravery. That's one thing.
the second is adding an additional bonus. They are completely separate actions.

Another example would be a feat changing your Str Bonus to damage to instead be to HP and Fort saves. And then having another feat that added your str bonus to DR. You still have a str bonus, it does something different now, but it's just a number. Armed Bravery just looks at the number, not what it does, Bravery changes what it does.

By your definition, Armed Bravery wouldn't stack with Bravery, since fear is a subset of will saves. Yet it does.

If Improved Bravery granted an 'additional bonus' to all mind-affecting...I'd be leery of letting it stack with Armed, but it might still be possible because they are different bonuses against different effects.

As it stands, they stack. Improved Bravery modifies Bravery, and Armed Bravery is derived from bravery.
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Several issues.

First, armed bravery and bravery don't stack. You don't get twice your bravery bonus to will saves against fear with it, only the base bravery bonus.

Second, improved bravery also doesn't "stack" with bravery because the feat is an explicit replacement.

Third, even without improved bravery explicitly not stacking, it wouldn't matter, because effects from the same source never stack, and bravery is the source for both armed bravery and improved bravery.

Fourth, your strength example has nothing to do with the case at hand. A better comparison is the untyped attribute bonus FAQ, which goes against you.


Armed Bravery (Ex) The fighter applies his bonus from bravery to Will saving throws. In addition, the DC of Intimidate checks to demoralize him increases by an amount equal to twice his bonus from bravery. The fighter must have the bravery class feature in order to select this option.

Everything is going to hinge on that first line. If it means you get a totally new bonus, then they stack, and he gets a pretty good save against Fear effects.

If it means you just expand the use of the existing bonus, then they don't.

If it means the former, then it stacks with Improved Bravery.

They should probably FAQ it. It definitely seems like it should stack, but it's all in your interpretation, I guess.


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Bonuses from the same source don't ever stack.


Darche Schneider wrote:

I'm kinda on the fence of these two..

Armed Bravery - You apply your bravery bonus to will saves. Does this mean you still have bravery's normal bonus too?

Most of the time you get abilities that replace out something like Side Step Secret states you use your cha instead of your dex for your ac bonus.

But Armed Bravery doesn't say you gain your bravery bonus to all will saves instead. So, could be double the effect?

Improved Bravery - Now this one improves the bravery bonus to be instead of just fear, but against all mind-affecting effects.

Imp Bravery can be further augmented with the bravery aura from ultimate intrigue.

So Assuming both don't stack, which is better to have?

By themselves, Armed Bravery is the better ability all around since it works against everything Improved Bravery does, against several things Improved Bravery does not work against, and does not require a Charisma investment. However, some factors should be taken into account.

1. Armed Bravery cannot be achieved before level 5. Improved Bravery can be taken at level 2.
2. Improved Bravery combines with Inspiring Bravery to give the fighter a 30-foot aura that lets him share his protection against mind-affecting with allies that can see and hear him. Armed Bravery does not work with Inspiring Bravery, unless I am reading one of them wrong.
3. If you have Improved Bravery you are free to pick another Advanced Weapon Training option, such as Versatile Training, much earlier in the game, and for switch hitters makes having weapon training in multiple groups a little more workable.
4. Armed Bravery does not function unless you have a weapon from your weapon group on hand. Improved Bravery does, and the enemy has no way to turn it off. A useful consideration if you need to make a will save without your weapon around, although properly built I feel neither fighter is that worried about being disarmed. Still, casters and monsters often do go after your mind when you can't introduce them to Mr. Slashy up close and personal.

If you're reasonably confident you'll always have your weapon on hand and the later access isn't a worry, Armed Bravery is more comprehensive protection. Improved Bravery has yet another attribute tax to make life harder for a fighter on point buy, but it's an earlier investment, doesn't compete with AWT's numerous appealing options like Armed Bravery does, and does allow you to add a group support element to the Fighter with Improved Bravery if you're into that sort of thing.

It does mean that fighters picking up more charisma for things like Intimidate or Use Magic Device (or Bluff/Diplomacy/Disguise from various Training options) have some more to do with it, too.


IF Armed Bravery actually changes Bravery's bonus, i.e. does not stack, then it should work with Inspiring Bravery, based on what you are saying.


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Das Bier wrote:
IF Armed Bravery actually changes Bravery's bonus, i.e. does not stack, then it should work with Inspiring Bravery, based on what you are saying.

Except that inspiring bravery doesn't provide your allies your bravery class feature, it provides specific benefits as spelled out with no benefit associated with armed bravery.


I don't have the wording on Inspiring Bravery, so no ability to fact check that. I'll assume you are correct, and it's part of a feat chain.

Still no reason to need a Cha Req on Imp Bravery.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

Inspiring Bravery specifically says that allies add your bravery bonus on saves against fear, then that if you have improved bravery it gets expanded to all mind-affecting effects and has the same language for social bravery, but not armed bravery.


Das Bier wrote:
I don't have the wording on Inspiring Bravery, so no ability to fact check that.

Then why are you posting about it in the rules forum as if you did?

People come here for help, not to be spammed with incomplete analysis.

The untyped bonus FAQ definitely applies here. It states that untyped bonuses from the same source do not stack. If I recall, the ruling came up with something interacting funny with Divine Grace.

Since free source of the bonus is Bravery, and that source can apply to multiple different kinds of saves, it is still consisted Bravery and cannot stack with itself. The FAQ clears up the intent.

The wording on the other feats should be enough to know that it won't stack itself.

As to which is better, it's hard to say. If you need the bump to 'all' will saves earlier than levels 5 or 9, then you're better off with the feat. I'm now trying to think of a situation where you have to make a will save against something that isn't mind affecting, and I'm ironically drawing a blank.

In other words, improved bravery is probably just as good.


Because people post the wording of feats here, and I thought that the prior reference to Inspired Bravery was quoting "You give your Bravery bonus to all allies", not 'IF you have Improved Bravery, you give your resistance to mind-affecting to all allies." which are two very different effects.

If the wording was the former, and ARmed Bravery changed the bonus, then Inspiring Bravery would grant a will save bonus to your friends.

If it wasn't, and Armed Bravery stacked, then it wouldn't.

Depends on the wording, is all.


master_marshmallow wrote:
Das Bier wrote:
I don't have the wording on Inspiring Bravery, so no ability to fact check that.

Then why are you posting about it in the rules forum as if you did?

People come here for help, not to be spammed with incomplete analysis.

The untyped bonus FAQ definitely applies here. It states that untyped bonuses from the same source do not stack. If I recall, the ruling came up with something interacting funny with Divine Grace.

Since free source of the bonus is Bravery, and that source can apply to multiple different kinds of saves, it is still consisted Bravery and cannot stack with itself. The FAQ clears up the intent.

The wording on the other feats should be enough to know that it won't stack itself.

As to which is better, it's hard to say. If you need the bump to 'all' will saves earlier than levels 5 or 9, then you're better off with the feat. I'm now trying to think of a situation where you have to make a will save against something that isn't mind affecting, and I'm ironically drawing a blank.

In other words, improved bravery is probably just as good.

channel energy Inflict Wounds, Harm, Some illusions, and some Curses where a few I know

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