UMD question (Which caster level do I use?)


Rules Questions


Example a character with 18 charisma and 10 wisdom decides to use a "Heal" level 6 divine spell which can be cast by both cleric and oracle.

By PFS rule, a scroll is always at a minimum caster level. A cleric needs to be level 11, while an oracle needs to be at level 12 to cast the spell.

Do I cast the spell as at a level 11 or 12 caster level, and which UMD check should I use, the cleric's (20+11) or oracle's (20+12)?

Liberty's Edge

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Scrolls are always presumed to be from Clerics, Wizards or Druids, as far as I know. This means that if you're casting a divine spell like Heal, you presume it is a cleric scroll, and so you cast it at CL = 11, UMD = 31.


Yes, the scrolls are from "Clerics, Wizards or Druids", but by scroll casting rules, oracles should be able to cast them no?

From the example, the character does not have enough wisdom to cast the spell. Therefore, can he opt to cast as an oracle using UMD instead (So he does not have to emulate the ability score)?

This has been on my mind for a long time, just like to know what everyone thinks.


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Since it is a UMD check your caster level is not a factor. You go by the level of the person who created the scroll which has default rules.


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By the spell casting rules, you need to have sufficient casting stat to cast certain level of spells e.g 11 charisma for level 1 spell, 12 for level 2

In this case, the spell in question is a level 6 divine spell, which requires either 16 wisdom to cast for a cleric, or 16 charisma for an oracle.

wraithstrike wrote:
Since it is a UMD check your caster level is not a factor. You go by the level of the person who created the scroll which has default rules.

So in this case, by default rules, does it mean that meeting the condition of 16 charisma for casting the spell as an oracle, all other rules of UMD follows the casting as a cleric (UMD for caster level)?

EDIT:

I reread the UMD rules and I get it now, thanks for the clarification.

Use a Scroll: Normally, to cast a spell from a scroll, you must have the scroll's spell on your class spell list. Use Magic Device allows you to use a scroll as if you had a particular spell on your class spell list. The DC is equal to 20 + the caster level of the spell you are trying to cast from the scroll. In addition, casting a spell from a scroll requires a minimum score (10 + spell level) in the appropriate ability. If you don't have a sufficient score in that ability, you must emulate the ability score with a separate Use Magic Device check. This use of the skill also applies to other spell completion magic items.


If the oracle is casting it it's lv11 since that is what the scroll is and the oracle makes the caster level check for lv11. This means that an 11th level oracle will not need to make the check since it's a high enough level.


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-Grijm- wrote:

By the spell casting rules, you need to have sufficient casting stat to cast certain level of spells e.g 11 charisma for level 1 spell, 12 for level 2

In this case, the spell in question is a level 6 divine spell, which requires either 16 wisdom to cast for a cleric, or 16 charisma for an oracle.

wraithstrike wrote:
Since it is a UMD check your caster level is not a factor. You go by the level of the person who created the scroll which has default rules.

So in this case, by default rules, does it mean that meeting the condition of 16 charisma for casting the spell as an oracle, all other rules of UMD follows the casting as a cleric (UMD for caster level)?

EDIT:

I reread the UMD rules and I get it now, thanks for the clarification.

Use a Scroll: Normally, to cast a spell from a scroll, you must have the scroll's spell on your class spell list. Use Magic Device allows you to use a scroll as if you had a particular spell on your class spell list. The DC is equal to 20 + the caster level of the spell you are trying to cast from the scroll. In addition, casting a spell from a scroll requires a minimum score (10 + spell level) in the appropriate ability. If you don't have a sufficient score in that ability, you must emulate the ability score with a separate Use Magic Device check. This use of the skill also applies to other spell completion magic items.

When you are using you UMD your caster levels don't matter. You and a fighter(assuming it had UMD) would be making the same DC for the caster level check. So if a cleric made the scroll the DC would be 31 for both of you.

Scarab Sages

I've always played it that CHA counts as a casting stat for cleric/oracle and wizard/sorcerer spells. Otherwise there would be a lot of Sorcerers and Oracles that would need to make a UMD check to emulate a stat just to use scrolls that are in class.


Ferious Thune wrote:
I've always played it that CHA counts as a casting stat for cleric/oracle and wizard/sorcerer spells. Otherwise there would be a lot of Sorcerers and Oracles that would need to make a UMD check to emulate a stat just to use scrolls that are in class.

I agree with that. I was just talking about caster levels.

PS: After checking the rules again you are supposed to use the ability score for the class you are emulating. I will continue to do it the way I have been doing it.

quote for reference:

Quote:
Your effective ability score (appropriate to the class you're emulating when you try to cast the spell from the scroll) i

Scarab Sages

Right, and do you see any reason you can't emulate a Sorcerer or Oracle for a scroll that they could use? I don't.


Ferious Thune wrote:
Right, and do you see any reason you can't emulate a Sorcerer or Oracle for a scroll that they could use? I don't.

I thought you were saying you use charisma even if the spell is an oracle/cleric spell and you were casting as a sorcerer.

If you are using a scroll the class has access to UMD is normally not going to be used since it is a much risker move than just using a caster level check if the sorcerer(as an example) is using a wizard/sorcerer scroll that is beyond his level.

If he for some reason needs to emulate the ability score the rules would already tell him to use the charisma stat because he is already casting it as a sorcerer.

Scarab Sages

Hmm... I think things are getting confused.

I am saying that if there is a scroll of a spell, and that spell can be cast by a class that uses CHA as its casting stat, then any character, regardless of class, that has a high enough CHA to cast the spell should not need a second UMD roll to emulate having a high enough WIS or INT to cast the spell.

Here's a couple of examples:

1) I'm a Sorcerer trying to use a Breath of Life Scroll. My WIS is only 14, but my CHA is 20. Do I need one roll against DC 29 (20+CL of the scroll), or do I need two rolls? One against DC 30 (Twice the required WIS score) and the earlier DC29.

2) I'm an Oracle trying to use a Breath of Life Scroll. I'm only 8th level. I need a Caster Level Check to activate the scroll, DC 10. My WIS is 14 and my CHA is 20. Do I also need a DC 30 UMD check to emulate a 15 WIS?

You're required to have the requisite ability score regardless of whether or not the spell on the scroll is on your class list and regardless of whether you're making a Caster Level check or a UMD check to activate it. If the answer to question 2 is no, because an Oracle can use CHA instead of WIS, then why would the Sorcerer (or any other class with UMD) not also be able to use CHA instead of WIS when activating the same scroll?

If CHA is not considered a casting stat for the scroll, then the Oracle above would also need to emulate a high enough WIS to use the scroll, and that's where things stop making sense for me.

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