Balancing Idea for caster vs martial


Homebrew and House Rules


Yes, yes I know we've had lots of those and I know there are posters who think there is nothing to fix.

I'll post my idea never the less and hope to get feedback.

When using the automatic bonus progression from unchained it saves lots of money. Using my idea the GM would keep the amount of loot the same as it would be without the automatic progression, resulting in more available money.

Now the balancing:
Casters have to make a ritual to open up new spell levels. For those rituals they need costly materials worth the amount of money saved so far through automatic progression by wizards. As wizards rarely need weapon enchants I'd not count those when determining the price.

Examples:
- 2nd level spells: Ritual costs 1000gp because that is the amount saved for the +1 resistance bonus gained at 3rd level.
- 3rd level spells: Ritual costs 3000gp (ring of protection +1 and magic armor +1)

That way casters get less items at higher levels so martials can use the additional gold to lessen the power gap. Freeing up the slots of some of the big 6 supports that because now those slots can be used for versatility.


So you think that money can save the martials? You're not the first and you sure are not the last. Magical items does not fix the problem or come close to bridge it. You're trying to fix X, therefore you do Y, while there's no relation between X and Y.

Also, this is a terrible idea. Because this does not ensure that martial characters gets a bigger part of the share.

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Yeah, that doesn't go very far at all.


Actually, the money distribution would be the same. The casters would have to put it into new spell levels, while the martials could just put it into gear.

It becomes a training tax or levelling tax that martials don't have to put up with. It would work, but your casters would scream.


One game I am playing in uses a houserule (that I don't like) that gives casters less pointbuy. So I do not think the casters would scream about this houserule I presented above.

The current house rule is:
- Martials and 4th level casters get 15PB
- 6th level casters and alchemists/investigators get 10PB
- 9th level casters get 10PB but 1 less slot of their highest level (except 1st level)


I don't actually see how this will balance the game, they are still going to have good bonuses from ABP but are going to lack utility items like buffering caps. Also this isn't going to affect classes like Cleric at all as they automatically know all Cleric spells.

Even Wizards are eventually going to end up getting Black Tentacles and all the nasty Pit spells. Here is the thing, Caster's don't need less money Non-casters need more money. It's not a relative thing, it's an absolute thing, they are going to get these powerful high level spells one way or another and if those are used then it costs a lechrchaun's pension fun to afford counters to it.

I think an unfortunate side effect of your demand is spells that buff the party like Haste are going to end up left behind as they get those blasting spells that they crave. Also so much of the wizard's personal wealth budget is often for the party's benefit, like wands of buffing.

But this mechanic already kind of exist in the game:

"Wizards perform a certain amount of spell research between adventures. Each time a character attains a new wizard level, he gains two spells of his choice to add to his spellbook. The two free spells must be of spell levels he can cast."

That's the only way they can get spells that you don't personally give them by dropping scrolls, spellbooks and so on. As long as you throw in enemy NPC Sorcerers rather than NPC Wizards there won't be any unintended spells. The only problem is those two-spells every level, stopping them getting the spells you think are too powerful. This is the exercise of soft power, drop spells they'd like that you think they could have (Like a Scroll of Haste but no Scroll of Fireball) then put heavy pressure for the spell they choose be a neutralising spell, one that is necessary to counter a looming threat.

Examples such as:

Level 3-4
-Create Treasure Map = to locate a stolen item that only a dead man knows where is hidden
-Obscure object = to hide an macguffin-type device from being found by divination to end and endless stream of flying attackers pursuing you
-Mark of Blood = to track an important person or creature who will be taken in a hostage exchange
-Resist Energy = Frequent elemental attacks like forest fires, green dragons, etc
-Whispering Wind = Plot demands to send warning over a great distance

Level 5-6
-Blood Biography = solve a mystery where you only have a blood sample to go by
-Dispel Magic = a character is afflicted by Blindness or similar spell and needs it dispelled
-Nondetection = continually being traced by scrying to have enemies teleport onto your position
-Shrink Item = Entrance to key point is blocked by a huge iron cover that's too heavy to be moved but may be shrunk.

And so on. Though that is kind of a dick move, saying "here's nice stuff, but better pick this stuff to stop getting the OP stuff" you could simply say "no, you haven't learned Black Tentacles yet".

Putting a Gp price on it will just lead to grumbling and much the same imbalance as before.


@Just a Guess: I agree that your current house rule is even more terrible. That's also a common missconception about "fixing" the Caster/Martial Disparity. It actually does its job extremely lousy (Martials don't need to be better at what they're already doing. The disparity is about everything else and higher Ability Scores can't fix that).
"Casters" are everything between Wizards (SAD) and Clerics (MAD). A 10PB for a Wizard is managable (you can still even afford 18 Int while dumping Str and Cha) while it's a cripple for any Cleric.

I would prefer what you presented in the OP a thousand times before I was told that I indirectly couldn't play a Cleric or any other MAD caster.

With that said: Neither systems still don't fix a thing.


Easier to give martials more stat points as they level then to give it to them upfront. Thus, 'self-improvement training' becomes part of the class.

I controlled it by giving Fighters a point to each of their lowest mental and physical stats every 4 levels. Thus, it won't raise the ceiling, but it will help level out the floor, ad since they need all physical stats, provides a small boost to the non-primary physical stats. If they dump a stat, in the end it just raises it back into not completely useless territory on them.


Just a Guess wrote:

Yes, yes I know we've had lots of those and I know there are posters who think there is nothing to fix.

I'll post my idea never the less and hope to get feedback.

When using the automatic bonus progression from unchained it saves lots of money. Using my idea the GM would keep the amount of loot the same as it would be without the automatic progression, resulting in more available money.

Now the balancing:
Casters have to make a ritual to open up new spell levels. For those rituals they need costly materials worth the amount of money saved so far through automatic progression by wizards. As wizards rarely need weapon enchants I'd not count those when determining the price.

Examples:
- 2nd level spells: Ritual costs 1000gp because that is the amount saved for the +1 resistance bonus gained at 3rd level.
- 3rd level spells: Ritual costs 3000gp (ring of protection +1 and magic armor +1)

That way casters get less items at higher levels so martials can use the additional gold to lessen the power gap. Freeing up the slots of some of the big 6 supports that because now those slots can be used for versatility.

Don't worry about the naysayers. I really like your idea. I think if I was to use your concept I would need to do a little bit of experimentation to determine what 'cost' to assign for each level so that it works for our table, but I am confident that the principle is sound.


Alex Trebek's Stunt Double wrote:
Also this isn't going to affect classes like Cleric at all as they automatically know all Cleric spells.

You've misunderstood his proposed change. He says that you don't gain *access* to 2nd level spellcasting until you pay the cost. It affects clerics as well.

Alex Trebek's Stunt Double wrote:
Here is the thing, Caster's don't need less money Non-casters need more money.

But the non-caster won't need to spend cash on the stuff gained from ABP, so they DO end up with more cash. They get their resistances and ability score bonuses, etc... and then extra cash to spend on utility and other things.

Casters get the ABP as well, but won't have the cash to spend on extra things because they need to spend it on buying their "super weapon": their next level of spells.

Perhaps you should reread his proposal and rethink your response. You've clearly missed the entirety of what he's saying.


It might be more interesting if you simply allow full BAB classes to get physical stat enhancements for free, and potentially REsistance and nat Armor bonuses. This would replicate the fact that it has always been easier to gain defenses for fighting types then for casters, and easier to raise your physical conditioning then become smarter/wiser/more charismatic.

I handled it by letting certain classes just add stat points at every 4th level...but I focused on the BOTTOM stats, so it wouldn't overpower the class. It meant an evener base spread, not a faster progress to a 30.


Kaisoku wrote:
Alex Trebek's Stunt Double wrote:
Also this isn't going to affect classes like Cleric at all as they automatically know all Cleric spells.

You've misunderstood his proposed change. He says that you don't gain *access* to 2nd level spellcasting until you pay the cost. It affects clerics as well.

Alex Trebek's Stunt Double wrote:
Here is the thing, Caster's don't need less money Non-casters need more money.

But the non-caster won't need to spend cash on the stuff gained from ABP, so they DO end up with more cash. They get their resistances and ability score bonuses, etc... and then extra cash to spend on utility and other things.

Casters get the ABP as well, but won't have the cash to spend on extra things because they need to spend it on buying their "super weapon": their next level of spells.

Perhaps you should reread his proposal and rethink your response. You've clearly missed the entirety of what he's saying.

I did read and re-read his proposal, I didn't realise it would be quite so blunt as simply that class ability doesn't exist till expensive ritual.

True, if you don't halve wealth with ABP and then get the bonuses to saves that would otherwise cost money for free, you will be overall ahead. But by my estimation (I've not run the numbers, just looked over where people spend their money) it's not enough to have such a slight improvement or simply be relatively better off.

My point is still that Non-Casters need more magic items to save itself from casters, even if Casters are hit with wealth penalties. It's more than just dealing with the saves as good saves can't compensate for bad luck. If you get bad luck on an attack role, big whoop. Get a bad roll on one of the nastier Pit spells then you can't just fall to your death and end up stuck at the bottom of the hole.

There are counters to magical flight but they are expensive. Counters to invisibility are also extremely high yet still so cheap for those with spellcasting abilities which don't really get any better or worse with or without a huge amount of wealth.

I worry that trying to deprive casters will jsut lead to more glass-cannon syndrome, they are still a cannon yet shattering it isn't a good counter, you still want a wizard in your party just not so disproportionately powerful. I've shattered glass cannons in my time, the players weren't happier for it (non-casters included).

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