Zaister |
So, for those that have adopted the Automatic Bonus Progression from Pathfinder Unchained, what are your experiences and verdicts with the system?
I have adopted it for my current Iron Gods campaign that is now halfway through. However we thought that the way the system handles magic weapons and armor was strange in the way that you have to pay for a weapon's or armor's immanent magic abilities from your attunement bonus, and so we decided to ignore the part of the system pertaining to weapons and armor.
So, I am especially interested in how the system plays out regarding weapons and armor. What are your experiences as GM, and what do the players say in this regard?
Also, how do you reduce WBL if playing an adventure path?
Rub-Eta |
I really like it. Now they actually get their needed items (no matter their wealth or geographical position) and I can give them cool loot without having to care about what slot it is for or if it's sub-par compared to "+1".
I really like the weapons and armor bonuses, since everyone gets them. There's no guilt in not spending all your gold on the "optimal" choices.
I reduce WBL by simply removing a lot of the items that aren't used in the ABP system. Or by turning them into mundane items (which are way lower in price). When it comes to weapons and armor, mostly they become masterwork versions. Sometimes I convert them into an equivilant weapon/piece of armor with special properties instead of the flat "+X". (One if my players are currently swinging a Glamered Flaming Greatsword instead of the stated +2 Greatsword).
ArchangelAzrael |
I am currently playing in a campaign (lvl 7) and I have two characters (since we are lacking members at the moment) only 1 session so far. One is a paladin the other is a sylvan sorcerer. For the most part Automatic Bonus Progression hasn't hurt my paladin and in one occasion helped me. We were ready to fight some demons and we had some preparation time so I bought a cold Iron version of my weapon and attuned it (so I at least had a +1 weapon). On the other hand I couldn't pool my money on a big item like a +3 weapon which well would help me overcome the damage reduction and net me +2 to hit and damage. All in all I feel that i traded flexibility (and the ability to optimize) but gained slightly higher wealth by level, the freedom of not caring about loot so much (or optimization).
For the sorcerer I was more disappointed as the +1 to weapon was wasted resources and I felt i was running short on money for wondrous items. The need to equip my animal companion as well was a tad too harsh with the lack of flexibility on my budget. Still it was not that bad. I just thing that the Automatic Bonus Progression is more geared towards martials that spellcasters.
The DM really liked it as it was a lot less job to equip costume made NPCs
and he was not afraid we would leave the wealth by lvl curve by defeating appropriate level NPCs.
All in all I would say that it works. It lowers the ceiling and raises the Floor as far as equipment optimization is concerned but i am sure that at higher levels when half your wealth by lvl is considerably large optimization will still sneak in.
Albatoonoe |
I love it because I hate constant, huge piles of loots. I use the variant for little to no magic items (bumping up the effective level by 2) and I make magic gear scarce. It eases up the DM work a bit while making magic items more special.
Also, it opens up a lot of character types. The Ascetic is the most obvious archetype that comes to mind. Not to mention throwing weapons are more effective (though not perfect).
Lemmy |
I haven't used Paizo's ABP system, as I think it's needlessly convoluted, but I have a similar system for replacing most of the Big 6, and I like it. IMO, it's much cooler for this stuff to be part of the character's skills rather than their loot. And it's interesting to see what gear players will buy when they don't have to worry about the "mandatory" stuff.
Porridge |
Thanks so far.
Regarding weapons and armor: do you use the system a in the book, or the more complex one from the blog?
I'm lazy, so I use an even simpler system: what's in the book, minus the attunement rules. (So a player with a +1 ABP for weapons automatically gets a +1 enhancement bonus to hit and damage regardless of what weapon they're using.) This boosts martial a a bit, but I'm OK with that.
(The one potential worry with going this way of going is players accumulating a golf bag of bane weapons to lug around. But that's a problem with the pricing of bane, not the system. So we have a gentleman's agreement to not do that. (If they did, I'd just change the coat of bane to that of a +2 enhancement.))
Declindgrunt |
My group uses the abp rules almost all the time now and we don't use the weapons or the armor just because we feel it takes away from the game in some ways. For example if our fighter finds an amazing sword the system makes it just a whatever sword untill our fighter picks it up same situation with armor, we just feel like for the weapons and armor it takes away more then it gives
Turgan |
As a GM I used a similar system for RotRl, already before ultimate campaign. But there was no automatic progression for weapons and armor - I guess because it felt similarly strange.
Just: enhancement to natural armor, deflection, enhancement to ability score (variable) and resistance. Calculated the maximum gold worth of boni for each level an subtracted it from the WBL.
Edit: And there was something else: These bonuses did not stack with othere bonusses of the same name (as in the rules) but were not considered magic in nature but extraordinary, in a way being part of your body.
Darksol the Painbringer |
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So, for those that have adopted the Automatic Bonus Progression from Pathfinder Unchained, what are your experiences and verdicts with the system?
I have adopted it for my current Iron Gods campaign that is now halfway through. However we thought that the way the system handles magic weapons and armor was strange in the way that you have to pay for a weapon's or armor's immanent magic abilities from your attunement bonus, and so we decided to ignore the part of the system pertaining to weapons and armor.
So, I am especially interested in how the system plays out regarding weapons and armor. What are your experiences as GM, and what do the players say in this regard?
Also, how do you reduce WBL if playing an adventure path?
We've started a campaign from level 1 all the way up to level 6 currently, and to be honest I love it. When we did loot from our previous campaign, we ended up running into a bunch of Cloaks of Resistance and Rings of Protection that it just ended being a bunch of vendor trash, so we could just purchase/craft the items we really wanted for ourselves.
In this case, when we actually find loot, we know it won't always be the same staple stuff; whether it's useful or not, we don't know, but at least it won't be so predictable. Sure, we don't get as much money, but quite frankly we always do a running joke about how we would be in town by 2nd level and then never see a town again until the lategame (figure level 15 or so), so really, having money wasn't really important to us, as we never had any practical way of spending it. Heck, when we raided something, it was for everything except the money.
Now, we don't have to sit there and argue who's getting this Belt of Strength +4 or this Amulet of Natural Armor +3, etc. Because everyone will have the same bonuses. Instead, we argue who should get, for example, the Ring of Spell Knowledge, or the Hat of Disguise, all of these fun little things.
As for the armor and weapons, there is a rule that you cannot have weapons higher than a +5 total enhancement until you hit 19th level, which is a problem, especially if players want to sink their money and power into their weaponry. However, there is a blog post that basically removes that limit in exchange for being able to pay gold to enhance your weapon with +5 worth of properties (with your ABP stacking your bonuses to AC/hit and damage on top of the properties that are on the weapon).
In simple terms, a weapon can be enhanced with up to +5 worth of abilities, costing normal and has a Capacity limit. The Capacity of the weapon determines how much of your ABP bonuses can apply to that weapon. Each weapon comes standard with 0 Capacity, and the cost to apply weapon properties comes as normal (2xBonus Squared). However, there is a different calculation for adding Capacity to a weapon, which is taking the total enhancement cost (Properties + Enhancement) and subtracting the cost of the Capacity in Enhancement Bonuses. In other words, taking the value of a +10 Weapon (+5 worth of properties with 5 capacity) and subtracting the cost of a +5 Weapon (valued by the 5 Capacity the weapon has), and you'll have your total cost.
The math checks out, but it is a lot of book work to do, especially if players keep enhancing their weapons and armor further, and also removes the need for special weapon and armor drops to occur (unless they're stronger than what they're currently using).
For the wealth, I'd just take the amount of item drops of a scenario, cut them in half in accordance with how much money they are valued (this requires GM FIAT of course), and then any discrepancy can be distributed evenly across any gold stashes they come across. I mean, if you're the GM, you need to know the scenario inside and out, so reading who has/drops what, etc. will solve this problem.
GM 1990 |
Just switched over my group last week when they leveled to 5th. Looking forward to it, as I've not liked the large amount of treasure required to keep them up with the CRs. I'm going to use the version from the Blog, as I like to have weapon/armor drops with little perks and tweaks.
No companion's in this group, but I can see that being an issue depending on the type. Id also thought about how it kind of leaves pure casters out, but lets be honest they're already plenty strong, still will be, and won't be able to SAD max as quickly.
Eliandra Giltessan |
I've been using ABP for my Hell's Rebels campaign. I do a little spreadsheet and try to give them half the value of magic items and half the value of gold. Most, if not all, of my players like it better. I'm using the system from the book.
Zaister, how are you converting wealth for Iron Gods, with all the tech items? I want to run Iron Gods next, and I want to use ABP, but I'm not sure how to balance it.
Cuenta |
I haven't used Paizo's ABP system, as I think it's needlessly convoluted, but I have a similar system for replacing most of the Big 6, and I like it. IMO, it's much cooler for this stuff to be part of the character's skills rather than their loot. And it's interesting to see what gear players will buy when they don't have to worry about the "mandatory" stuff.
Link to your ABP system? I, too, think Paizo's ABP system is convoluted even though I really like the idea of it.
Matrix Dragon |
I actually really don't like the Automatic Bonus Progression system. It is very good for certain characters when it gives them every bonus they need. Characters who need unusual item combinations to function suffer however.
I ended up just using a (somewhat complicated) houserule system where the players get to pick a bonus to gain when they level up.
Zaister |
Zaister, how are you converting wealth for Iron Gods, with all the tech items? I want to run Iron Gods next, and I want to use ABP, but I'm not sure how to balance it.
For now I have mostly left treasure amounts unmodified, except for simply removing items that do not exist when using ABP. I keep weapon and armor, though, since we decided earlier not to use that part of the system. On occasion I reduce some purely monetary stuff. I also have 5 players, so that reduces wealth as well.
Zaister |
I actually really don't like the Automatic Bonus Progression system. It is very good for certain characters when it gives them every bonus they need. Characters who need unusual item combinations to function suffer however.
Interesting. Can you name these certain characters who need these "unusual item combinations"? I'm curious.
Blymurkla |
We're still at level 2 in our campaign using Automatic Bonus Progression, so I can't really give an opinion on the system yet.
However, I thought I'd share a re-write of the blog post where Mark Seifter suggested a house rule on how magic weapons work and armour under ABP.
You can find the re-write here. It's much easier to understand than Mark's original text and I find it adds a nice bit of balance between flat (attuned) enchantment bonuses and magical properties. This thread might also be of interest.
Matrix Dragon |
Matrix Dragon wrote:I actually really don't like the Automatic Bonus Progression system. It is very good for certain characters when it gives them every bonus they need. Characters who need unusual item combinations to function suffer however.Interesting. Can you name these certain characters who need these "unusual item combinations"? I'm curious.
Kineticists suffer the worst actually. That is because they usually don't use weapons, and things like armor are secondary concerns for them. All they really want is More Dex and Con. However, they have to wait longer than everyone else before they get their necessary bonuses. A fighter will get +1 to attack, damage, and AC at level 4. The kineticist doesn't get his first +2 to a physical stat until level 7. Casters at least get their first mental bonuses at level 6.
If you get really technical about it shapeshifters, monks, and natural attack users are messed over as well because they don't have weapons and armor to attune. Some GMs will be willing to work around that.
Pure arcane casters also have some issues, because they get these weapon and armor bonuses that they will never use. Normally they would be putting that money towards metamagic rods or something.
Squiggit |
I generally like it, but have similar concerns to Matrix where certain items are behind their normal pricing curve (stat item is a level 5 item, but you get mental at 6 and physical at 7).
I also ignore attunement entirely, as it feels kind of gamey and counter to the concept behind ABP and also just not very necessary.
Eliandra Giltessan |
Zaister wrote:Matrix Dragon wrote:I actually really don't like the Automatic Bonus Progression system. It is very good for certain characters when it gives them every bonus they need. Characters who need unusual item combinations to function suffer however.Interesting. Can you name these certain characters who need these "unusual item combinations"? I'm curious.Kineticists suffer the worst actually. That is because they usually don't use weapons, and things like armor are secondary concerns for them. All they really want is More Dex and Con. However, they have to wait longer than everyone else before they get their necessary bonuses. A fighter will get +1 to attack, damage, and AC at level 4. The kineticist doesn't get his first +2 to a physical stat until level 7. Casters at least get their first mental bonuses at level 6.
If you get really technical about it shapeshifters, monks, and natural attack users are messed over as well because they don't have weapons and armor to attune. Some GMs will be willing to work around that.
Pure arcane casters also have some issues, because they get these weapon and armor bonuses that they will never use. Normally they would be putting that money towards metamagic rods or something.
The ABP rules specifically say that you can apply the armor enhancement bonus to regular clothing.
Mysterious Stranger |
Matrix Dragon wrote:The ABP rules specifically say that you can apply the armor enhancement bonus to regular clothing.Zaister wrote:Matrix Dragon wrote:I actually really don't like the Automatic Bonus Progression system. It is very good for certain characters when it gives them every bonus they need. Characters who need unusual item combinations to function suffer however.Interesting. Can you name these certain characters who need these "unusual item combinations"? I'm curious.Kineticists suffer the worst actually. That is because they usually don't use weapons, and things like armor are secondary concerns for them. All they really want is More Dex and Con. However, they have to wait longer than everyone else before they get their necessary bonuses. A fighter will get +1 to attack, damage, and AC at level 4. The kineticist doesn't get his first +2 to a physical stat until level 7. Casters at least get their first mental bonuses at level 6.
If you get really technical about it shapeshifters, monks, and natural attack users are messed over as well because they don't have weapons and armor to attune. Some GMs will be willing to work around that.
Pure arcane casters also have some issues, because they get these weapon and armor bonuses that they will never use. Normally they would be putting that money towards metamagic rods or something.
You can also apply the weapon bonus to unarmed or natural attacks. ABP can allow a monk to take a vow of poverty without being totally screwed.
Calth |
So long as you use the blog supplement, the system is all in all pretty good, with a few corner cases that need to be addressed, which is somewhat to be expected from an Unchained system.
As written, ABP favors weapon using martials by a small but noticeable degree, which isn't really a bad thing, since a minor full-caster nerf at high levels isn't going to break anything.
The major corner case is multi-natural attackers, since attunement doesn't really work for them. A pretty simple solution though would be to follow the TWF progression but swapping the pair of enhancements for a AoMF equivalent. This keeps the whole thing price neutral since AoMFs cost twice as much per enhancement bonus.
Xexyz |
I'm running a homebrew campaign and I switched over when Unchained was released and I'm really grateful for the system. It's a lot easier to keep PC wealth under control since many of their opponents are NPCs with class levels. I did make a few modifications to the system:
1. I didn't actually remove any of the stat gear ABP, so the PCs are still able to buy those items if they want to. This was mostly because I was switching systems in the middle of a campaign and thought it would be unfair to the PCs since some of them just spent a lot of money on stat gear and I didn't want to penalize them for it. However, I also like still having that gear around because it gives me more flexibility. For example they were briefly allied with an NPC prince who had royal heirlooms (such as a +3 flaming scimitar) much more potent than his normal ABP would allow.
2. The other minor tweak I made was to allow characters to decide upon reaching 6th level if they wanted to gain their mental or physical stat, so martials would be on par with spellcasters for progression.
3. I make other case-by-case tweaks. There's a bladebound magus in the party and I let him use his weapon attunement to give his blackblade arcane points equal to his attunement bonus.
james014Aura |
My experiences with the system are:
1) It allows for a good benchmark for what bonuses you should have at what level when NOT using it.
2) It allows a GM to design some enemies more efficiently, especially monsters with class levels
3) This is NOT a personal observation, but rather the result of a conversation with someone who designed a character in it: It severely nerfs a lot of classes. Two-Weapon Fighting and Armor+Shield both steadily lose out in wealth equivalent (and thus AC/damage/to hit) against just armor and a single weapon. Switch Hitters are similarly hindered. Kineticist is based on spending that gold on different bonuses than normal, and so it's nerfed. The stat bonuses given are also rather inflexible.
So, it's a handy tool for a GM to use, if they can justify it (or just give the players gear that does what their bonuses were after the fight), but it has some hefty downsides. Ultimately, I just use it as a reference.
CorvusMask |
I've been using abp without attunement part(since that just makes shield/dual wielding/etc harder for not really good reason and is bit confusing what should I do if players find +5 major artifact weapon.. Would be bit anti climactic for artifacts weapon to lose their enhancement bonuses) and just use the stat/resistance/ac bonuses <_< I'm also not using wish inherent stat increases removing part because I discovered it would nerf one final boss of particular AP who has +5 to one stats and +4 to all others from wish... Its impossible to build that guy completely with ABP even though he does have +6 enhancement bonus to almost all stats already :'D
Loot wise I haven't adjusted it at all besides losing loot you would get from selling stat items you find from enemies. I figured out that I don't really need to do much adjusting since I don't even use all parts of ABP and enemies get buffed by it too.
Just to note, system gets bit confusing regarding monsters with class levels that have items with higher bonuses than what they get with their class from abp..