Mobile Bulwark Style = Immunity to T-Rex?


Rules Questions


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Does Mobile Stronghold from the Mobile Bulwark Style chain seem a bit like the pre-nerf Crane Wing? You have the ability to gain total cover against one attack every round. Paizo nerfed Crane Wing into the ground because of this sort of ability. Was this intended?


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I was thinking it was intentional (and pretty awesome).

One important way in which the Mobile style's ability to gain cover differs from the pre-nerf crane wing ability is that in the latter case, the attack just misses, and the attacker can't really do anything about it. In this case, though, they can -- for example, they can attempt to sunder your shield. (And maybe disarm it? I remember there being debates about whether you can disarm shields, and I don't recall the issue ever having been resolved.)

That's how I was reading it, anyway...

EDIT: After a little searching, I came up with this, which suggests you can't disarm a shield: Relevant Text. So it looks like sundering is the way to go...


Quoting the full text would be helpful to further gauge whether it functions as how you describe. For right now, I'll just presume it functions as you say (provides total cover from an attack)

However, if it is total cover from an attack, then that's similar to utilizing a Tower Shield to provide total cover to a PC; in other words, a "wall" of some sorts. If that's the case, it's negated by the fact that bigger creatures can just reach over the wall and hit him without issue anyway.

So in short, if they're larger than the PC with the feat, it does nothing. If they're equal or shorter than the PC with the feat, then yes, it does effectively negate a single attack.

It's not as powerful as the pre-errata Crane Wing because the Crane Wing worked after-the-fact; that is, a hit must be confirmed for Crane Wing to be used, whereas in this feat, an attack must be declared for this feat to be used.

There is a functional (and significant) difference between those two definitions, and not understanding what those are is why your conclusion (that it equates to Crane Wing) is highly incorrect.


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Relevant text, from d20pfsrd.com

d20pfsrd wrote:

Mobile Stronghold

You can use your tower shield to block magical attacks.

Prerequisite(s): Str 17, Mobile Bulwark Style, Mobile Fortress, Shield Focus, Tower Shield Proficiency, base attack bonus +7.

Benefit(s): While using a tower shield, you do not suffer a penalty on attack rolls because of the shield’s encumbrance.

While using Mobile Bulwark Style, whenever you use a tower shield to gain total cover, you also gain partial cover (and grant partial cover to adjacent allies) against spells passing through the selected edge of your space. Also, while using this style, you can gain total cover against a single attack made against you as an immediate or swift action.

Since it says total cover against an attack, I'd assume it always negates the attack unless the attack can travel through total cover (maybe ghosts can get past it?). However, it is definitely worse than Crane Wing, since it requires you to spend an immediate action, pick up a bunch more uncommon feats, and carry a tower shield around, with all its associated problems. And it's not as good as Crane Wing against multiple attacks per round.

I wasn't equating it 1:1 to Crane Wing, but assuming that it does negate one attack per round, it could be a fairly effective counter against single-big-hit type enemies. I wouldn't call it overpowered, but that's pretty cool.


Actually, with the entire feat chain in check, you do not suffer any penalty to attack rolls, and with the right archetype, feats/ability, and materials, your Armor Check Penalty would be almost negligible, so having a Tower Shield isn't nearly as bad as it normally would be if you didn't have the feat chain.

So really, this feat chain's hidden strength is making Tower Shields not suck so bad on the offensive end; the ability to gain total cover against a single attack is fairly strong damage reduction, but again, against larger-sized enemies, it actually does nothing due to reach rules.


Decreasing ACP requires resources that could be better spent on other things. Agreed that this feat chain makes Tower Shields much better offensively.

However, I'm reading the total cover deal a bit differently- it isn't worded like a shield reposition, which would give total cover from one direction. It gives total cover against a single attack, with no reference to a "selected edge" in that sentence. Because of this, I'd assume that it is not subject to tower shield facing rules. And since you gain total cover against an attack, not against a direction (unlike the Tower Shield Specialist Fighter's Immediate Repositioning), it wouldn't be unreasonable to say that you can block larger creatures, too. It doesn't specify ranged, melee, touch, or spell attacks either, which seems to indicate that this can grant total cover against *any* attack. Please tell me if I'm wrong, but I'm not sure cover against absolutely anything was the developer's intention. But if it was, I'm going to have a whole lot of fun with tower shields.


...yep, sure looks like you can spend an immediate or swift to gain immunity to one attack (including magical attacks). If it meant you could change where the shield was positioned it would say something like that, instead it just says spend an immediate or swift to gain total cover from an attack (and therefore "You can't make an attack against a target that has total cover"). Also stops any magic that requires line of effect (which is most of it). No idea how it interacts with spreads, do they just go around the shield? How big is the total cover? Clearly there are some easy common sense rulings, equally clearly someone needs to make them. I don't even think sunder works because it doesn't say you're using the shield for the cover, just that you somehow get total cover (and you can't sunder something someone is using if you can't target them). Really, very weird ability.


There's also the oddness that total cover doesn't actually defend against attacks, it just makes it so you can't be attacked at all.

In that respect you can make the argument that the feat doesn't actually negate the attack being made. A T-rex who bites you or a wizard that casts an attack spell at you can choose a different target or do something else altogether because they can't actually make that attack in the first place anymore.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
swoosh wrote:
...you can make the argument that the feat doesn't actually negate the attack being made. A T-rex who bites you or a wizard that casts an attack spell at you can choose a different target or do something else altogether because they can't actually make that attack in the first place anymore.

That's how I was reading it. So I was thinking (if you're the only one around, say) that the T-rex could still try to sunder the shield with that attack, even if it couldn't try to bite you.

But I'm a lot less confident of this than I was initially...

Bob Bob Bob wrote:
...I don't even think sunder works because it doesn't say you're using the shield for the cover, just that you somehow get total cover (and you can't sunder something someone is using if you can't target them).

...that's a good point. RAW, it looks like if someone attacks you by attempting to sunder your shield, you can use this feat to give yourself total cover, and protect yourself (and thus your shield) from the attack. :P

(I can't believe this is RAI, though.)

What is the RAI ruling? I guess there seem to be a couple natural candidates:

  • 1. We might treat it like a shield reposition that you can make as an immediate action instead of a standard action.
  • 2. We might treat it like a temporary shield reposition (that only lasts until the attacker has made its next attack) that you can make as an immediate action.
  • 3. Or we might read it as allowing you to use the shield to give yourself total cover from one attack that's directed at you (not the shield) as an immediate action.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

(P.s.: Shouldn't this be in the "Rules Questions" section? I think I'll suggest that this be moved there, so that it'll catch the attention of the those best positioned to answer these kinds of questions.)


Porridge wrote:
(P.s.: Shouldn't this be in the "Rules Questions" section?)

Maybe? You can flag it. I was mostly asking for opinions on if this was intended, since I'm pretty clear on how this works.


I think you just need to include language saying something like "you can gain total cover against a single attack made against you by interposing your shield as an immediate or swift action." This still leaves a lot of ambiguity, but the right kind of ambiguity. And basically amounts to 3 on your list.

Edit: I don't think rules is the right place though. The rules are pretty clear (and weird).


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An interesting Quirk of RAW.

If you have total cover, your attended items also have total cover (nothing in the description makes an exception). That means Mr. T-Rex cannot sunder the shield.


Porridge wrote:
(P.s.: Shouldn't this be in the "Rules Questions" section? I think I'll suggest that this be moved there, so that it'll catch the attention of the those best positioned to answer these kinds of questions.)

Why? The rules aren't in question. This thread is to discuss the feat and how it's ability to block a T-Rex (monster with a single attack) is the same problem people had with crane wing.

Personally I think using tower shield to block a T-Rex makes more sense than naked monk slapping the teeth away.


I think that for that sifnificant feat investment and character level it's appropriate. At this point creatures with multiple natural attacks and enemies with iteratives show up.


voska66 wrote:
Porridge wrote:
(P.s.: Shouldn't this be in the "Rules Questions" section? I think I'll suggest that this be moved there, so that it'll catch the attention of the those best positioned to answer these kinds of questions.)
Personally I think using tower shield to block a T-Rex makes more sense than naked monk slapping the teeth away.

Agreed.

It's not like you're picking this up with a one level dip into Maneuver Master at low level.


voska66 wrote:
Porridge wrote:
(P.s.: Shouldn't this be in the "Rules Questions" section? I think I'll suggest that this be moved there, so that it'll catch the attention of the those best positioned to answer these kinds of questions.)

Why? The rules aren't in question. This thread is to discuss the feat and how it's ability to block a T-Rex (monster with a single attack) is the same problem people had with crane wing.

Personally I think using tower shield to block a T-Rex makes more sense than naked monk slapping the teeth away.

We should always refer to Crane Style as Naked Monk Slapping Teeth Style.


To address the immunity topic, I imagine the T-Rex would attempt a few bites before it's lizard brain decided that tactic wasn't working and it tried something else. (Jurassic park roof sunder comes to mind as it tries to rip the shield away. Or just gives up and withdraws.) As far as power level vs T-Rex, it is not that different than a flying wizard. (That is the martial-caster disparity box for anyone playing rules forum bingo.)

If you can sunder, overrun, bullrush, or trip someone using a tower shield in this manner is a different conversation. And it is a shame they didn't address the bit about targeted spells from the tower shield section.


My Self wrote:
We should always refer to Crane Style as Naked Monk Slapping Teeth Style.

I'd happily vouch to never call it anything different ever again if only I can get the unnerfed version back!

On a related note, put me in for 2000gp for "gets nerved to death before the end of the year". After all, Fighters are nearly as overpowered as Monks are, and the poor casters need some balancing against those well crafted PFS bosses with only one attack per round!


Derklord wrote:
My Self wrote:
We should always refer to Crane Style as Naked Monk Slapping Teeth Style.

I'd happily vouch to never call it anything different ever again if only I can get the unnerfed version back!

On a related note, put me in for 2000gp for "gets nerved to death before the end of the year". After all, Fighters are nearly as overpowered as Monks are, and the poor casters need some balancing against those well crafted PFS bosses with only one attack per round!

Thankfully this is a Player Companion feat line, so it's pretty much immune to those shenanigans unless they're feeling really spiteful and add the "amended" text to a different book.


For me this issue was solved quite simply i told my player if you use your shield has cover it take the attack thas was intended for you


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Emblazon the Sundered Crane (Crane Statant or Crouched, Wing Dexter or Sinister upraised, other wing decouped or struck over by Xi Sable) on your tower shield, to honor the heroes of the past and caution the gamesmen of the future.

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