Charm Monster and Eidolon


Rules Questions


So how does Charm Monster work when cast on a Summoner's Eidolon. Can the Summoner override the Charm effect and have it attack the creature that cast Charm Monster?

Going even further how would Dominate Monster against an Eidolon?


If the monster is dominated or charmed then it is under the control of the enemy caster. Nothing gives the eidolon a free ride here. Despite being a class feature it is still its own creature, and it has no immunity from compulsion spells.

What the summoner can do is send the creature away if he can not regain control via another compulsion spell or dispel magic.

PS: Protection from <insert alignment> may also give the creature a reroll


Charm Person is not complete control. I would give the charmer an opposed charisma check to stop the eidolon from attacking him, as long as the circumstances in general makes that a reasonable course of non-action, and even if he fails that, the Eidolon is going to pull its punches, probably taking the -4 for doing non-lethal.


Menacing Shade of mauve wrote:

Charm Person is not complete control. I would give the charmer an opposed charisma check to stop the eidolon from attacking him, as long as the circumstances in general makes that a reasonable course of non-action, and even if he fails that, the Eidolon is going to pull its punches, probably taking the -4 for doing non-lethal.

Why would the eidolon continuing attacking if it has been successfully charmed? Not attacking a "trusted friend and ally" seems very much within an eidolon's ordinary course of action. And it's not like the fact that the eidolon was previously in combat with the caster hasn't already come into play; the eidolon would get +5 on its save as said in the spell.

Your example sounds like a really weak interpretation of the spell in that scenario.

Liberty's Edge

Char monster isn't complete control, but the charmer is the trusted friend of the caster.
He will not attack the charmer unless convinced by another trusted friend that is needed, like convincing him that the charmer has been possessed, confused or some such.

Doing that would require, as a minimum, a good explanation of what the PC is saying to the eidolon and a successful opposite charisma check.
If convinced the eidolon would do what a PC would normally do against a friend suffering from the same kind of effect. Retaining him, trying to "cure" him and so on.

On the other hand the charmer could do the same to convince the eidolon of the need to attack his summoner or some of his allies.


Steven Dey wrote:

So how does Charm Monster work when cast on a Summoner's Eidolon. Can the Summoner override the Charm effect and have it attack the creature that cast Charm Monster?

Going even further how would Dominate Monster against an Eidolon?

"Eidolons are outsiders for the purpose of determining which spells affect them."

Nothing in the outsider type description provides any protection against enchantment spells.

Charm Monster and Dominate Monster would affect an Eidolon just as much as it would affect any other outsider.


They work just fine against the Eidolon and there isn't really much the summoner can do.

Of course, exactly how Charm Monster works in general is a subject of debate.


Dominate Monster works fine. Charm Monster works, but the companion section does suggest that a Summoner's bond is very strong, with the Eidolon obeying orders not given out of spite. (Additionally, it is treated like a summoned creature, and there are separate spells to pretend to be the actual master of a summoned creature.) Whether or not attacking the charmer would count as "an order that would cause it (the Eidolon) to suffer needlessly" is up to the GM, though. In any case, if it won't attack, that should mean that even if it's hit by an apparent master spell, it won't attack you.

On my phone, but the companion section can be found by searching for "Eidolon" on the pfsrd's animal companion page.


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Claxon wrote:

They work just fine against the Eidolon and there isn't really much the summoner can do.

Of course, exactly how Charm Monster works in general is a subject of debate.

Ultimate Intrigue clarified quite a bit for the Charm spells:

Ultimate Intrigue wrote:

Charm Person: The main thing to remember about charm magic is that it is not a compulsion (that is a different subschool of enchantment), which means it doesn't directly force someone to do something. Instead, the spell basically makes someone feel like the caster is a friend, and puts what the caster says in the best possible light. Just like in the Diplomacy section of Skills in Conflict, being someone's friend doesn't mean the caster gets to dictate everything they do, and even the opposed Charisma check the spell grants can only go so far; it doesn't compel them to act exactly as the caster desires.

For instance, an evil necromancer might be willing to allow her friend to sit as her new right hand, but she won't quit her entire life's goal just because a friend asked, even with an opposed Charisma check. This advice applies equally as well to other charm spells (such as charm animal and charm monster).


That helps, but is not definite on how it should be ran. Mostly because they simply could not enumerate and explain all possible situations.


Claxon wrote:
That helps, but is not definite on how it should be ran. Mostly because they simply could not enumerate and explain all possible situations.

Oh, absolutely. They also clarified Dominate Person a bit, too. Still there's a LOT of room for debate on both of them.

Scarab Sages

Yeah, Charms are really dependent on the Eidolon's alignment, regarding what you can get them to do as the charmer. A chaotic evil Eidolon would probably leap at the chance to attack it's master under the guise of being enchanted (no consequences!).


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Of course, the action for the summoner to dismiss the eidolon should still work even if the eidolon is dominated -- and also that the eidolon would most likely have to stop attacking the summoner as soon as he loses consciousness since that would usually cause it to be dismissed automatically.


Murdock Mudeater wrote:
Yeah, Charms are really dependent on the Eidolon's alignment, regarding what you can get them to do as the charmer. A chaotic evil Eidolon would probably leap at the chance to attack it's master under the guise of being enchanted (no consequences!).

No, the only Charm spell in Pathfinder that can make you attack a friend is Litany of Madness, and I'm presumee that one should be in the compulsion subschool, too.

A Charm could only prevent the Eidolon form attacking the charmer, and that can easily be overruled by the Summoner, unless then the Eidolon and the Summoner have a bad relationship (totally conceivable for evil NPCs, but rare among PCs). In most cases, I'd say a command from the Summoner to attack the Charmer would weight more for the Eidolon than it's perception of "hm, the guy I never met seems like a really nice guy even though he is trying to roast my friends right now". Also, as usual, if anyone in the party sucessfully spellcrafts the spell, "that guy just charmed you, attack him anyway" pretty much trumps Charms Person et al.*

Really, Charms are not combat spells. Charms are there to make the city guard let you in because you are totally nice and trustworthy.

*The standard charm spells "[make the target] regard you as its trusted friend and ally". Since Pathfinder characters can attack allys without any prohibitions, anything convincing the charmee to attack his "friend" as good as breaks the charm.

­­
Now, Dominate Monster works just fine, although the Summoner can despawn the Eidolon as a Standard Action.

Scarab Sages

Derklord wrote:

No, the only Charm spell in Pathfinder that can make you attack a friend is Litany of Madness, and I'm presumee that one should be in the compulsion subschool, too.

A Charm could only prevent the Eidolon form attacking the charmer, and that can easily be overruled by the Summoner, unless then the Eidolon and the Summoner have a bad relationship (totally conceivable for evil NPCs, but rare among PCs). In most cases, I'd say a command from the Summoner to attack the Charmer would weight more for the Eidolon than it's perception of "hm, the guy I never met seems like a really nice guy even though he is trying to roast my friends right now". Also, as usual, if anyone in the party sucessfully spellcrafts the spell, "that guy just charmed you, attack him anyway" pretty much trumps Charms Person et al.*

Really, Charms are not combat spells. Charms are there to make the city guard let you in because you are totally nice and trustworthy.

*The standard charm spells "[make the target] regard you as its trusted friend and ally". Since Pathfinder characters can attack allys without any prohibitions, anything convincing the charmee to attack his "friend" as good as breaks the charm.

­­
Now, Dominate Monster works just fine, although the Summoner can despawn the Eidolon as a Standard Action.

If my good friend asks me to attack my other good friend, and my alignment doesn't see issues here nor does it conflict with my current personal goals, I'll probably do it. Its not a matter of compulsion if I'm evil alignment, I just like killing, or at least I like inflicting pain, or I just don't have the moral compass to the see the wrongness of killing party members because my good friend asked me to.

You are correct, the charm doesn't compel a behavior beyond the good attitude with the charmer, but it can be used to exploit an existing behavior (like bloodlust).

I will note that with recently formed parties playing in a fluffy capacity, charm is more potent, as the Eidolon is unlikely to be very chummy with the other party members. So while attacking the summoner is probably a conflict of interest, attacking the distrusted allies of convenience that is a player party is well within the scope of charm, as the charmer is likely the second most trusted character for the Eidolon (summoner is first, charmer is second).

From the CRB on alignment:

Quote:
Evil implies hurting, oppressing, and killing others. Some evil creatures simply have no compassion for others and kill without qualms if doing so is convenient. Others actively pursue evil, killing for sport or out of duty to some evil deity or master.

Scarab Sages

David knott 242 wrote:

Of course, the action for the summoner to dismiss the eidolon should still work even if the eidolon is dominated -- and also that the eidolon would most likely have to stop attacking the summoner as soon as he loses consciousness since that would usually cause it to be dismissed automatically.

Sense motive is required to determine if the Eidolon is dominated. That or one of the many detection spells.

Granted, after a swing or two, the Summoner will likely dismiss the eidolon even if it isn't enchanted, just to be safe.

Still, a reasonably intelligent dominated eidolon probably knows this, so they are probably going to attempt to inflict maximum damage in a brief period without regard to their own life. Though I suppose it would depend on their orders by the dominator (if dominated).


Murdock Mudeater wrote:
Still, a reasonably intelligent dominated eidolon probably knows this, so they are probably going to attempt to inflict maximum damage in a brief period without regard to their own life. Though I suppose it would depend on their orders by the dominator (if dominated).

That depends on what happens to a dismissed eidolon and if dismissal is "obviously self-destructive".


Murdock Mudeater wrote:
If my good friend asks me to attack my other good friend, and my alignment doesn't see issues here nor does it conflict with my current personal goals, I'll probably do it.

"my alignment doesn't see issues" means that only evil characters behave like that. Otherwise, the character would attack neither and either clobber one of the remaining enemies or don't attack at all (maybe tring to negotiate a truce), depending on the situation.

Unless the charmer is telepathically communicating with the Eidolon, the Summoner can probably hear him. The charmer still needs to talk to the charmee to make it do anything. At that point, the Summoner can easily intervene.
"Why did you stop attacking him?"
"I think he's a nice guy. I don't want to hurt him!"
*looks at the dude in red and black with a thin mustach, hands still glowing from casting a spell*
"Hey, you trust my, right? Trust me now and attack him, I think he's messing with your mind. I swear he's a bad guy!"

Of course, if the Summoner is an evil dude who whips his Eidolon around, the charmer might even convince the Eidolon to kill it's nasty master. Could totally be a plot hook if a PC does it to an enemy Eidolon (e.g. summon the freed eidolon later with planar binding and have him join the party for a while)!
But I really don't see that working against PCs.

Murdock Mudeater wrote:
Sense motive is required to determine if the Eidolon is dominated. That or one of the many detection spells.

If the my Eidolon suddenly attacks me/my party instead of the bag guys after one of them cast a spell, I don't even need spellcraft or sense motive.


Pathfinder Maps, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Murdock Mudeater wrote:
David knott 242 wrote:

Of course, the action for the summoner to dismiss the eidolon should still work even if the eidolon is dominated -- and also that the eidolon would most likely have to stop attacking the summoner as soon as he loses consciousness since that would usually cause it to be dismissed automatically.

Sense motive is required to determine if the Eidolon is dominated. That or one of the many detection spells.

I suspect that any Sense Motive check would be pretty easy if it involves somebody that you have a continuous telepathic link with -- to the point that a Bluff check by summoner against eidolon or vice versa should probably fail automatically.

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