Protector familiars and familiars with no attacks


Rules Questions


Quote:

Loyal Bodyguard (Ex)

A protector gains Bodyguard and Combat Reflexes as bonus feats. If the familiar is occupying its master's square, it can use Bodyguard to aid another to improve its master's AC even if it doesn't threaten the attacking foe.

This ability replaces alertness and improved evasion.

Quote:

Aid another

In melee combat, you can help a friend attack or defend by distracting or interfering with an opponent. If you're in position to make a melee attack on an opponent that is engaging a friend in melee combat, you can attempt to aid your friend as a standard action. You make an attack roll against AC 10. If you succeed, your friend gains either a +2 bonus on his next attack roll against that opponent or a +2 bonus to AC against that opponent's next attack (your choice), as long as that attack comes before the beginning of your next turn. Multiple characters can aid the same friend, and similar bonuses stack.

You can also use this standard action to help a friend in other ways, such as when he is affected by a spell, or to assist another character's skill check.

So lets say I pick a familiar with no natural attacks like the hedgehog and give him the Protector archetype. According to the aid another ruling, it says that you make an attack roll but doesn't necessarily require you to be in possession of a weapon.

So with this in mind, can a hedgehog familiar for example or any other ones who dont have natural weapons take the aid another action to improve their masters AC?


All creatures can do unarmed strikes. They just aren't proficient and would provoke. So yes, your hedgehog can make the attack roll to bodyguard.


Does the act of making the unarmed attack roll to aid another also provoke AoOs in this case?


I don't see anything that says you're making an actual attack, so I'd think not.


Chess Pwn wrote:
I don't see anything that says you're making an actual attack, so I'd think not.

I agree with you in that the Protector Familiar would not provoke an Attack of Opportunity by using Aid Another in the manner of its Loyal Bodyguard Ability.

But Aid Another is an actual attack. It is a Special Attack, but a Special Attack is still an Attack. If I told you I think you are a special person, I'm not telling you I think you are not a person. Aid Another would, for instance, end an Invisibility Spell, benefit from True Strike, or break a Rogue's Stealth.

Aid Another to improve your ally's AC is a Special Attack that does not provoke an Attack of Opportunity.

Core Rulebook, Actions in Combat table, Standard Actions, Aid Another wrote:
Attack of Opportunity... Maybe... 2If you aid someone performing an action that would normally provoke an attack of opportunity, then the act of aiding another provokes an attack of opportunity as well.

So Aid Another only really provokes if it is not being used as an attack, to Aid in a Craft Check, for example.


Although, it does occur to me that this description of Aid Another and Attacks of Opportunity does sometimes leave the window of Opportunity open. If your Ally is attempting a Trip Combat Maneuver, and your Ally doesn't have Improved Trip or a Tripping Weapon, and neither do you, then it seems like you and your Ally both provoke attacks of opportunity according to the Core Rulebook. But what if one of you has Improved Trip and the other doesn't? Sticky wicket.

For that matter, what if you are Aiding your Ally to improve his CMD vs. a Trip attempt, and the opponent has Greater Trip. If the Trip is Successful, your Ally may be targeted by an Attack of Opportunity. Maybe you can be, too?


Bodyguard feat wrote:

Bodyguard (Combat)

Your swift strikes ward off enemies attacking nearby allies.

Prerequisite: Combat reflexes.

Benefit: When an adjacent ally is attacked, you may use an attack of opportunity to attempt the aid another action to improve your ally’s AC. You may not use the aid another action to improve your ally’s attack roll with this attack.

Normal: Aid another is a standard action.

so Loyal Bodyguard allows the use of the above feat.


Azothath wrote:
Bodyguard feat wrote:

Bodyguard (Combat)

Your swift strikes ward off enemies attacking nearby allies.

Prerequisite: Combat reflexes.

Benefit: When an adjacent ally is attacked, you may use an attack of opportunity to attempt the aid another action to improve your ally’s AC. You may not use the aid another action to improve your ally’s attack roll with this attack.

Normal: Aid another is a standard action.

so Loyal Bodyguard allows the use of the above feat.

Yup


well - I was being through listing the feats in the chain. That way people can read the feats.

I think the key words are in Aid Another, "by distracting or interfering with an opponent". The mechanic is making an attack roll but it need not be an actual attack, however, you will need to threaten to get that initial attack of opportunity(AoO) from Bodyguard, thus it is self fulfilling and somewhat circular. I don't think you need an actual attack just the ability to make an AoO which usually comes from threatening a square and having a weapon or natural attack.
Finally, the Loyal Bodyguard feat removes the AoO requirement... so you are left with making an attack roll against AC 10 (probably with a BAB of 0).

Practically with such a string of feats for a minor buff most GMs will just handwave it if that is all your familiar is doing. Things might get picky (making the attack roll vs AC 10) if the character's AC is going over 30 or the familiar is doing something else AND aiding the master's AC... but your familiar could "distract" your attacker to aid your AC... this also makes your familiar vulnerable to attacks as it's not in your pocket and is "active" in combat...


Azothath wrote:
Practically with such a string of feats for a minor buff most GMs will just handwave it if that is all your familiar is doing.

I agree with you here, but

Azothath wrote:
Things might get picky (making the attack roll vs AC 10) if

There are always ifs, which is why, begging your pardon, I am being picky.

Azothath wrote:
it need not be an actual attack,

Oh, I think it really does unless some special exception is made which has not been mentioned here. As I said, Aid Another is listed as an Attack. It's a Special Attack, but Special Attacks are still Attacks.

Aid Another wrote:
make an attack roll

just like you said. Also, Aid Another to improve your Ally's AC specifies that you threaten your opponent

Aid Another wrote:
in position to make a melee attack on an opponent

It specifies a target, as you said

Aid Another wrote:
interfering with an opponent
Azothath wrote:
it is self fulfilling and somewhat circular.

I don't see anything circular here. It linearly comes from the description of Aid Another. It is Aid Another, not Bodyguard that says that you must Threaten your opponent. Bodyguard just says you can do it as an Attack of Opportunity, and you are limited to the effect of increasing your Ally's AC, not Attack Roll. Bodyguard does add further flavor, though.

Bodyguard flavor text wrote:
Your swift strikes ward off enemies attacking nearby allies.

So, if you are adjacent to your ally, and in a position to attack an opponent who makes a melee attack against your Ally, you may use an attack of opportunity to make swift strikes to make an attack roll to execute a Special Attack interfere with your opponent. Everything about this says it's an actual attack.

Azothath wrote:
Finally, the Loyal Bodyguard feat removes the AoO requirement...

I dont' see where it says that.

Archives of Nethys, Classes, Familiars, Familiar Archetypes, Protector Familiar wrote:
If the familiar is occupying its master’s square, it can use Bodyguard to aid another to improve its master’s AC even if it doesn’t threaten the attacking foe.

Loyal Bodyguard removes the requirement that the Familiar be Threatening the opponent, but the Familiar still uses the Bodyguard Feat, and the Bodyguard Feat still requires Attacks of Opportunity.

But perhaps the Archives of Nethys is misquoting the rules.


Scott Wilhelm wrote:
Azothath wrote:
... Finally, the Loyal Bodyguard feat removes the AoO requirement...
I dont' see where it says that.
Tom4444 wrote:
Quote:

Loyal Bodyguard (Ex)

A protector gains Bodyguard and Combat Reflexes as bonus feats. If the familiar is occupying its master's square, it can use Bodyguard to aid another to improve its master's AC even if it doesn't threaten the attacking foe.

so threaten -> AoO -> Aid Another: roll to hit AC 10 to improve ally's AC {std action}

as the threaten requirement is gone I'm not sure how it is a melee attack... for me it's just a mechanic at this point to represent the distration/interference as AC10 is NOT your opponent's AC whom you may not even threaten or be able to reach...


Azothath wrote:
Scott Wilhelm wrote:
Azothath wrote:
... Finally, the Loyal Bodyguard feat removes the AoO requirement...
I dont' see where it says that.
Tom4444 wrote:
Quote:

Loyal Bodyguard (Ex)

A protector gains Bodyguard and Combat Reflexes as bonus feats. If the familiar is occupying its master's square, it can use Bodyguard to aid another to improve its master's AC even if it doesn't threaten the attacking foe.

so threaten -> AoO -> Aid Another: roll to hit AC 10 to improve ally's AC {std action}

as the threaten requirement is gone I'm not sure how it is a melee attack... for me it's just a mechanic at this point to represent the distration/interference as AC10 is NOT your opponent's AC whom you may not even threaten or be able to reach...

Feats and Special Abilities only do what they say they do. They only make the exceptions they say they are making. Loyal Bodyguard doesn't say the Familiar is not using Attacks of Opportunity, nor that when it's using Aid Another, it's not an Attack.

The only exception Loyal Bodyguard grants the Familiar is that it doesn't have to Threaten the opponent's square. It doesn't say it's not using Bodyguard. In fact, it says it IS using Bodyguard. Bodyguard says it is using an Attack of Opportunity to Aid Another. Aid Another says it's an attack.

Aid Another also says it can only be used to protect Allies from Melee Attacks, so even though your Familiar doesn't have to Threaten the square the opponent is in--good thing, too: most Familiars can't even reach squares adjacent to them--Loyal Bodyguard does not allow the Familiar to use Aid Another to protect his master from archers, although it would be able to protect its master from pikemen and the tongue of a Froghemoth.

But on what I think is your main point

Azothath wrote:
Practically with such a string of feats for a minor buff most GMs will just handwave it if that is all your familiar is doing.

and earlier,

Chess Pwn wrote:
So yes, your hedgehog can make the attack roll to bodyguard....[provoke AoOs in this case?] I'd think not.

we all agree.


We seem to all have the same conclusion, even though we have many different reasons why. Lets just be happy that it'll work the same for everyone.

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