Oh Marvel, you really are terrible now.


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Dark Archive

Thomas Seitz wrote:
Things change. People don't like change I've decided.

I'm completely inconsistent on the issue. I knee-jerk against some change, and love other change. There are certain tropes I hate, and certain characters who are literally that trope that I love.

For instance, 'she' characters in general have an uphill slog for me. Female characters who are their own thing, like Invisible Woman, Wasp, Scarlet Witch, Wonder Woman, Black Canary, etc. are cool, but various Supergirls/women, Batgirls/women, She-Hulks, She-Things, She-Spiders, She-Wolverines, She-Deathstrokes, She-Captain Marvels, She-Shazams, all spin-offs of popular male heroes, bug me, except for a bunch of the examples I just listed (She-Hulk, Spider-Girl, X-23, Ravager) who I ended up liking more than the male characters they were legacies of! 'Cause I'm all inconsistent, and good writing and characterization will totally smash my preconceptions in the face.

I guess I'm like that on all sorts of comics related issues. If it's well-written, like the Winter Soldier stories, I don't mind that Bucky is no longer dead. It doesn't feel like a 'revolving door of death' or 'pointless resurrection' to me, because the stories (and character) that came out of it were excellent. If it's *not* particularly well-written, or doesn't lead to some great stories, like the resurrections of Jean Grey or Barry Allen (IMO, mileage may vary!), I'm not as much of a fan.

On the one hand, I like some change and growth. I liked that the X-Men and Legion of Super-Heroes and Teen Titans were growing up and becoming adults and even starting families of their own, in some case. Attempts to reset them to teenagers again, instead of introducing new teenagers like Young Justice and the Runaways, just annoyed me.

On the other hand, I'm not ready for those who where already adults, or even in their 40s when introduced, like Dr. Strange, Hank Pym or Reed Richards, to totter off to the retirement home quite yet.


Set wrote:
Thomas Seitz wrote:
Things change. People don't like change I've decided.

I'm completely inconsistent on the issue. I knee-jerk against some change, and love other change. There are certain tropes I hate, and certain characters who are literally that trope that I love.

For instance, 'she' characters in general have an uphill slog for me. Female characters who are their own thing, like Invisible Woman, Wasp, Scarlet Witch, Wonder Woman, Black Canary, etc. are cool, but various Supergirls/women, Batgirls/women, She-Hulks, She-Things, She-Spiders, She-Wolverines, She-Deathstrokes, She-Captain Marvels, She-Shazams, all spin-offs of popular male heroes, bug me, except for a bunch of the examples I just listed (She-Hulk, Spider-Girl, X-23, Ravager) who I ended up liking more than the male characters they were legacies of! 'Cause I'm all inconsistent, and good writing and characterization will totally smash my preconceptions in the face.

I guess I'm like that on all sorts of comics related issues. If it's well-written, like the Winter Soldier stories, I don't mind that Bucky is no longer dead. It doesn't feel like a 'revolving door of death' or 'pointless resurrection' to me, because the stories (and character) that came out of it were excellent. If it's *not* particularly well-written, or doesn't lead to some great stories, like the resurrections of Jean Grey or Barry Allen (IMO, mileage may vary!), I'm not as much of a fan.

On the one hand, I like some change and growth. I liked that the X-Men and Legion of Super-Heroes and Teen Titans were growing up and becoming adults and even starting families of their own, in some case. Attempts to reset them to teenagers again, instead of introducing new teenagers like Young Justice and the Runaways, just annoyed me.

On the other hand, I'm not ready for those who where already adults, or even in their 40s when introduced, like Dr. Strange, Hank Pym or Reed Richards, to totter off to the retirement home quite yet.

The Wasp? Who got her powers from her boyfriend and was basically a ditzy female duplicate of his original powers for at least a decade?

But yeah, I agree with your main point. Give me a good story and good characterization and I'll overlook pretty much anything. Some of the best comics writing has come from taking a silly premise and turning it into something great.


thejeff wrote:
Delightful wrote:
Thomas Seitz wrote:

Delightful,

Agreed. It's not grim and gritty. That's Batman. :p

You mean that guy from that new Lego movie. Pfff, my grandma's more gritty than that goofball.
Lego Movie Batman is best Batman.

Brave and the Bold Batman might be better just because it's an homage to the goofy nature of Batman. It even pulls similar deep cuts that the movie does.

The Exchange

Feral wrote:
I don't know precisely but that's the promise of the big Marvel 'rebirth' thing that's coming up. I would assume it's going to mean rolling back most of the stuff that happened during/after Secret Wars and ANAD.

Don't know if I would be too excited about it. Because I don't remember the times before Hickman's lead-up to Secret wars as too interesting. Right at the moment there are a lot of series that are really interesting to me, and if they continue with this stuff, I don't care too much about the overall continuity. I mean I outrightly hated when they made Doc Ock and Parker exchange their brains, but the comics that came out of it (Superior Spider-Man) were pure awesome sauce. Same with the two Caps we have at this time.

So we'll see. At the moment,my only hope is that the Secret Empire event will live up to my expectations. We'll see what happens afterwards but if it's just a return to any former status quo, I would probably be seriously dissapointed.

In the end I'm mostly on thejeff's and Set's page when it comes down to what I'm looking for in a comic. Internal consistency is a nice thing to have, but I'd rather have a good story with inconsistencies than a totally bland, but consistent story.


thejeff wrote:
Sundakan wrote:

Really, that's a problem with ANY new character. When was the last time a new character burst into the mainstream? Maybe the Jaime Reyes Blue Beetle? Arguably John Stewart?

And only those by virtue of animated series'.

And both of those new versions of existing characters.

For that matter, when was the last new villain that stayed around and wasn't tied to an existing villain? Doomsday?


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137ben,

We did have a Female Goblin for a while...

Plus Morlun.

I can't think of many others honestly.

Steel,

MCU is different from Comics. Trust me.

Also agree, Jean from Earth whatever past timeline is kind of selfish jerk. But she is, after all, a teenager. So...not sure that absolves her, but it explains her recklessness.


Thomas Seitz wrote:
Also agree, Jean from Earth whatever past timeline is kind of selfish jerk. But she is, after all, a teenager. So...not sure that absolves her, but it explains her recklessness.

And I think that suddenly having her Telepathie activating did not help with that^^


Low,

No. No it most certainly didn't.


It's interesting that in her original timeline Prof. X suppressed her telepathy until some years later. Perhaps because he could see how she would misuse it, until she gained some more maturity?

Well, actually as a retcon to justify giving her telepathy when there'd never been a hint of it before, but still ...


Thejeff,

It makes sense. Which is a sentence I thought I would never utter thanks to Bendis.

Community & Digital Content Director

Removed a post and the series of posts quoting/responding to it. Resorting to hyperbole that includes "DEATH TO [insert entity here]" really isn't productive, and doesn't foster meaningful discussion.


Sorry Chris!

Anyways new May Solicts came out. I was hoping Ultimates might give us more ideas about how the Multiverse has changed. But I guess not.

Also: NO MORE PATSY WALKER?!! :( Oh well... she got 17 issues at least.


So! Apparently (and some what unsurprising if you've seen the covers for Secret Empire) Elisa Sinclair IS real and not just some memory made up by Steve thanks to Kubix. Still unclear how that would affect overall reality OR even if Helmut Zemo knows this reality of Steve's.

I just can't say.


About the only things I liked this week:

America Chavez FINALLY got her first issue out. I've been waiting a long time for it. It was good.

Monster Unleashed needs to end. Like RIGHT now.

Ben Reilly has become a real jerk. Thanks a lot Marvel!


So do we need a new thread to get more hits for Marvel Comics conversation?

Or we should just bury it and Marvel right now?

Also I'm calling it, Emma Frost's new code name Black Queen X.

The Exchange

Well, maybe the thread title hurts a bit. I can easily imagine that it might hold some of the marvel afficionados away from it. I mean I remember that when I first opened it I fully expected to be terribly annoyed by what I would find in it.

This said I just had no time to read anything in the last few weeks, so I'm a bit behind right now. And to my own suprise, I find myself actually preferring the DC rebirth issues at the moment, so there's that as well :D

Still I'll try to be a bit more present, because I kinda like to talk about comics. ^^

Dark Archive

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Random Marvel thought;

I want an Invaders-era story that doesn't necessarily include any Invaders. It could be set during the WW2 years, one mini-series for each year of the war, one dealing with the resistance in Europe (perhaps led by a young man named von Doom, who has a more (in)famous descendent, and including other members of oppressed groups, like Jews and Roma, and / or occupied territories, like France or Poland, and opposing a plot by Nazi occultists to tap the power of the slumbering Cthon in Mt. Wundagore?), another with the North African campaign (and perhaps including one or more covert Wakandan heroes, under strict orders to let no one know where they are from), another set in China dealing with a previous generation of K'un Lun martial artists (including an Iron Fist) trying to prevent the worst of the atrocities in Nanking, etc.

It's just one of many things in the Marvel Universe that I feel has been under-explored, and has a lot of rich potential to mine.

Were there any Inhumans involved in the war (perhaps, initially, being quite fond of eugenics and castes and 'subhuman' servant races, on the wrong side?). We know that Atlantis was tied into it, but how about the Moloids of Sub-Terra? The Nazis would likely want to eradicate and / or enslave them, if they stumbled upon them, and would certainly find sinister uses for the Deviant technology to be found down there.

Setting the tales in WW2 eliminates any possibility of the story being dragged off-course by the event-of-the-season, as well as allowing for name-dropping or guest-appearances by folk who are immortal, and might have been available back then, like Selene or one of the Eternals, Asgardians (not necessarily Thor, perhaps German occultists got played by Loki, at some point, while attempting to call upon Norse rune-magic?), Olympians, etc. or regionally relevant bad-guy entities (and potential power-sources) like Chthon or Mikaboshi or Set.


Set,

I think they already do that in some other comics...

Plus the fact Ms America just punched Hitler before Steve Rogers did.

Wormy,

So maybe start a new Marvel comics thread?

Yea? Nay? Undecided?

The Exchange

Yeah, I'd be for a new one, though maybe we should wait 'til after Secret Empire, so as to conclude this thread with the same topic it started :D

On the other hand the X-Men Resurrexion starts next month (right?), so why wait until june?


Wormy,

We could start a Secret Empire and beyond thread...

The Exchange

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By the way, did read All-New Wolverine #18 today. Twice. What a powerful ending.

And Gabby totally kicks ass. Even more than Laura, if that's anyhow possible.

Sovereign Court

SPOILER ALERT: Well, I called it. It is Cap's One More Day storyline.


Unless of course that's all a lie. :)

Sovereign Court

thejeff wrote:
Unless of course that's all a lie. :)

Mind blown.


It's like their is a very huge disconnect betwern Marvel and the fans imo. One Marvel insists on making worse. Fans were not very happy and I can't blame them with Cap being a Hydta agent. Now they create a new retcon. That's going to go over really well with the fans.

Are they going to do something similar with the Iceman series. Or the same with Emma Frost. I was never that big a fan of Cap but sorry Marvel I'm not convinced no matter how many convenient official new retcons they publish.

Which makes me wonder how it will affect the TV shows and movies. They can't have hero Cap in the movies then villian in the stories. It would be confusing imo. I will give Marvel credit for trying to hide a retcon with a new story. A retcon is a retcon though no mattet how Marvel tries to hide it.

The Exchange

thejeff wrote:
Unless of course that's all a lie. :)

Well, to me it's more like the author of this article doesn't really understand the scope of the cube's machinations. There is no retcon involved, it's still just a report of Cap America's fake history. It's the actual explanation why only Steve Rogers has "his" memories, so that he never comes to the idea that he could be wrong and all others be right.

But then, Secret Wars already broke continuity as much as it could, so maybe what we thought to be true has never been in the post-Secret Wars world. :)


I blame Reed Richards. Obviously he screwed up SOMETHING big time to have something like this happen. I'm hoping that it ends with a true blue classic Captain America showing up taking out this imposter from Earth 6173... ;)


Okay FIRSTLY,

Most of us knew this was coming. The article apparently didn't really get that.

SECONDLY, I made a new thread JUST because of Secret Empire. Not to begrudge Marvel, but the fact is, we had this thread. It died. There's no need to cast animate thread.

Go Here!

Scarab Sages

I actually liked the first issue of the new Nick Fury series. Except for the art, which came across a little too psychedelic to me. The story was fairly straight forward, confined to one issue, and stand alone, all while introducing a potential long-term antagonist.

So, essentially, this post doesn't really fit the thread title.


No it doesn't A-Zombie. Especially since I started a new thread...

Sovereign Court

Aberzombie wrote:

I actually liked the first issue of the new Nick Fury series. Except for the art, which came across a little too psychedelic to me. The story was fairly straight forward, confined to one issue, and stand alone, all while introducing a potential long-term antagonist.

So, essentially, this post doesn't really fit the thread title.

I've been meaning to check that out. Would you recommend it?

I wonder if Nick Fury will come back from his Watcher role with the Legacy reboot later this year.


Callous,

Unlikely. I'm pretty sure he's stuck being the Unseen until they some how reconstitute Uatu. Which doesn't seem likely.


reconstitute Uatu? Why not just replace him? Uatu wasn't ever the ONLY watcher, he was jut the one that broke the rules that time....

The Exchange RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16

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Because comics are essentially conservative. There's a baseline default that everything regresses towards. It seems that the target audience for comics is guys who stopped reading their favorite titles back in 1995, and want to pick them back up with the least glitches in continuity.

Iron Man will eventually be back to being Tony Stark. Thor will eventually return to being the Odinson. And Uatu the Watcher will regain his post on Earth's moon.


Chris Mortika wrote:

Because comics are essentially conservative. There's a baseline default that everything regresses towards. It seems that the target audience for comics is guys who stopped reading their favorite titles back in 1995, and want to pick them back up with the least glitches in continuity.

Iron Man will eventually be back to being Tony Stark. Thor will eventually return to being the Odinson. And Uatu the Watcher will regain his post on Earth's moon.

Ehhhh... I'm about as conservative as it gets with keeping my comics traditional but, there's a pretty strong difference between Uatu and Thor or Captain America. I can't imagine there are massive fans of Uatu who would riot with him replaced... if there are they should have already rioted with him getting killed. He's not a main character... heck he's not even a secondary character or even really a guest star. He's pretty much spent his entire career being somewhere between a narrator and a plot device.

Just the fact that there IS a watcher who shows up when something 'big' is going to happen to record it in his journals... That's all there is to the Watcher.

Actually, did Uatu's death even been mentioned since Secret Wars? I wonder if Reed Richards included that when he rewrote the universe...


Phantom,

I'm assuming since we've seen the Unseen that Uatu is still dead.

MOVING ON BACK TO THE OTHER THREAD GUYS!

I mean I made it for that reason....


phantom1592 wrote:
Chris Mortika wrote:

Because comics are essentially conservative. There's a baseline default that everything regresses towards. It seems that the target audience for comics is guys who stopped reading their favorite titles back in 1995, and want to pick them back up with the least glitches in continuity.

Iron Man will eventually be back to being Tony Stark. Thor will eventually return to being the Odinson. And Uatu the Watcher will regain his post on Earth's moon.

Ehhhh... I'm about as conservative as it gets with keeping my comics traditional but, there's a pretty strong difference between Uatu and Thor or Captain America. I can't imagine there are massive fans of Uatu who would riot with him replaced... if there are they should have already rioted with him getting killed. He's not a main character... heck he's not even a secondary character or even really a guest star. He's pretty much spent his entire career being somewhere between a narrator and a plot device.

Just the fact that there IS a watcher who shows up when something 'big' is going to happen to record it in his journals... That's all there is to the Watcher.

Actually, did Uatu's death even been mentioned since Secret Wars? I wonder if Reed Richards included that when he rewrote the universe...

and yet he has his fans. Comics stuff will always attempt to get new audiences, mostly fail, and then desperately try to get the old ones back. Vicious cycle.

Scarab Sages

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Freehold DM wrote:
Comics stuff will always attempt to get new audiences, mostly fail, and then desperately try to get the old ones back. Vicious cycle.

Indeed. I've been collecting for damn close to thirty years, and the cycle always repeats. Happened to me with Flash. They unceremoniously dropped original recipe Wally West down the memory whole and brought back Barry. I tried to keep with that, but found it lame.

Now, with Rebirth, I'm back to collecting because I'd heard the writing on Flash was really good. And it has been. I'm even starting to like Other Wally.

Hell, I'm even collecting a few Bat titles again. Even though that little ballsack Damian has a tendency to show up.


Aberzombie wrote:
Freehold DM wrote:
Comics stuff will always attempt to get new audiences, mostly fail, and then desperately try to get the old ones back. Vicious cycle.

Indeed. I've been collecting for damn close to thirty years, and the cycle always repeats. Happened to me with Flash. They unceremoniously dropped original recipe Wally West down the memory whole and brought back Barry. I tried to keep with that, but found it lame.

Now, with Rebirth, I'm back to collecting because I'd heard the writing on Flash was really good. And it has been. I'm even starting to like Other Wally.

Hell, I'm even collecting a few Bat titles again. Even though that little ballsack Damian has a tendency to show up.

the only Damian I like is in injustice.


Okay guys THIS is not the thread for that. If you want a thread for discussing changes in comics that are for diversity...then go argue with Chris about reopening that OTHER thread you guys closed.

Otherwise I think we're done here.

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