Suggest house rules to help underpowered classes [Core Rulebook]


Homebrew and House Rules


Help me identify underpowered classes, and suggest house rules to mitigate them a bit.

Note that I am using the Core Rulebook only.

In my experience as a player, Fighter and Rogue are the most underpowered, followed by Monk and Barbarian. This experience is obviously subjective and limited by which classes I have played myself, and how other people at the table have played others, so I accept that it might be wrong. Correct me if that's the case.

Good house rules are typically simple to understand, and not too extreme in their implications. One that I frequently use is to give the Fighter 4 skill ranks per level instead of 2.

P.S.
Feel free to post suggestions for mitigating overpowered classes too.


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The easiest way is to allow stuff from outside core. There are rules elements that improve all of those classes to a somewhat acceptable level.

If you really don't want to go outside core, look at the non-core stuff that boosts those classes up and import similar things into your campaign. Any other changes are probably going to be reinventing the wheel.


A house rule that helps fighters and core monks both immensely:

A full attack is a standard action.

This allows move + full attack. Given that both fighters and monks rely on full attack to be effective, this keeps them doing their thing.


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There's always the Unchained versions of Rogue, Monk and Barbarian. Unchained Rogue is a straight upgrade while Unchained Monk is slightly stronger overall (much better offense but loses on defense abilities). I haven't seen too much of the Unchained Barbarian but I think it's at about the same power-level as the core Barbarian.

Fighter is fine-ish in Combat. Giving him a few more Skill points and/or class skills is an easy anough fix to make him more useful out of combat.


Don't think I ever considered fighters underpowered, I would pretty much consider them the core class with other classes being under or over powered by comparison. But if you want a fighter to be better, give them an extra two skill points per level, having something to do outside of bashing things would make the fighter a much more interesting class.

Rogue is a lot tougher, mostly because they need to get into position to use their sneak attack. Although this never seemed to be much of a problem at lower levels, their generally high dex plus the bonus for acrobatics means they avoid attacks of opportunity while trying to get into position to flank. Higher levels is a different matter due to a lot of creatures having a very high CMD plus a lot of reach. Maybe let a rogue move at full speed while using acrobatics if they are wearing light or no armor? Maybe give them the ability to sneak attack even if the opponent isn't flanked/surprised, but a very limited number of times per day?

Never found monks to be underpowered. Their jump ability and movement is insane, allows them to create threat all over the battlefield. Combine that with trip attacks, grapple, or disarm and they are incredibly annoying, and can be damned deadly. I suppose if you do find them underpowered because of lots of opponents with DR, you could create a feat something like cluster shot, but that only works with flurry of blows.

Since when are barbarians underpowered? Not sure who my GM hates worse, the alchemist or my barbarian, and neither of us is completely optimized.


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Rogue: Replace with Ninja or use Unchained.
Fighter: Way more complicated but off the top of my head, Mutation Warrior, Martial Master, Eldritch Guardian, Advanced Weapon Training, and Advanced Armor Training (or whatever that one is called).
Barbarian: Use the stuff from Advanced Player's Guide.
Monk: Zen Archer, Qinggong, Tetori, or Unchained Monk.

Basically, most of the issues with the classes have been addressed somewhere else. Not perfectly, not completely, but progress has been made. Some archetypes are, dare I say it, actually decent. In terms of quick and easy fixes, those are what I have. There's probably a few good ones I missed.

Since you say "houserules" this isn't PFS, so what physical books you have doesn't really matter. Meet Paizo's official any information you might need, another site with everything Paizo's put out, and yet another site with all that plus some third party stuff. They each have their own uses, benefits, and flaws. Feel free to try them yourself.

Oh, and Barbarians are underpowered in a Core only game. Since you mentioned Alchemist that means you're using the APG thus you don't have the problem, but I invite you to take a look at the only rage powers they get in core and you'll see why it's a problem.

Sovereign Court

Okay, let's identify which classes we're talking about, and what to do about it.

Fighter
Fighters are okay at fighting. The problem with fighters is that they can't do enough outside combat. So let's do something about that:


  • 4+int skills or even 6+int skills.
  • More class skills; at least Acrobatics, Diplomacy, K(local, nobility, history), Perception and Sense Motive. That gives you a more well-rounded warrior.
  • Perhaps also a choice to gain either Will or Reflex as a second strong save.

Monk
The big problem with monks in core is a disconnect between their presentation as a high-mobility class along with needing a full attack to really function. A good solution would be to use the Unchained Monk; that'll get you up and running without anything else.

If that isn't an option, then you could grant monks the benefits of Flying Kick as soon as they get Fast Movement. That at least gets them started.

Finally, you might want to exempt them from the "end your turn" clause on Dimension Door when they use Abundant Step.

Rogue
Just use the Unchained Rogue. Or at least the Finesse, Dex to damage and debilitating injury abilities. That way, a rogue doesn't pay a Finesse feat tax to have a chance at hitting and AC at the same time; and the debilitating injury gives the rogue more tactical stuff to do.


For clarification: I am only using the Core Rulebook, and don't want to burden newbie players with more resources -- the Beginner Box is overwhelming enough as is for someone new to PnP RPGs.

I am using the Beginner Box. Later I am transitioning into the Core Rulebook. I have no desire to go from the Beginner Box to having 100 books to deal with. I am however familiar with most of the central rulebooks as a player for years, and would be happy to adapt any tweaks from them if they are simple enough to use with the Core Rulebook.

So, to reiterate, I am looking for *simple* changes I can make to the Core Rulebook classes, be they a house rule or something from e.g. the APG that is easy to tack onto the Core Rulebook without too much effort/widespread consequences. I want to mitigate the shortcomings of underpowered classes, not necessarily replace them completely. If they are to be completely replaced, the solution would have to be completely drop-in-replacement-friendly in that it works with the Core Rulebook and doesn't require any further resources for the players -- just "use this instead of the Core Rulebook for this class".

Thanks for understanding, and keep the suggestions coming!


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Ascalaphus wrote:

Okay, let's identify which classes we're talking about, and what to do about it.

Fighter
Fighters are okay at fighting. The problem with fighters is that they can't do enough outside combat. So let's do something about that:


  • 4+int skills or even 6+int skills.
  • More class skills; at least Acrobatics, Diplomacy, K(local, nobility, history), Perception and Sense Motive. That gives you a more well-rounded warrior.
  • Perhaps also a choice to gain either Will or Reflex as a second strong save.

Monk
The big problem with monks in core is a disconnect between their presentation as a high-mobility class along with needing a full attack to really function. A good solution would be to use the Unchained Monk; that'll get you up and running without anything else.

If that isn't an option, then you could grant monks the benefits of Flying Kick as soon as they get Fast Movement. That at least gets them started.

Finally, you might want to exempt them from the "end your turn" clause on Dimension Door when they use Abundant Step.

Rogue
Just use the Unchained Rogue. Or at least the Finesse, Dex to damage and debilitating injury abilities. That way, a rogue doesn't pay a Finesse feat tax to have a chance at hitting and AC at the same time; and the debilitating injury gives the rogue more tactical stuff to do.

Looking at the Unchained classes, it looks like these are drop-in-replacement-friendly for the Core Rulebook. I might just print those from the d20pfsrd, and tell people to use them. :) Thanks a lot for the suggestions!


Fighter secret class feature: artifact sword.
Monk secret class feature: tiger form amulet.


I still think unchained is a great way to start. The unchained overhaul was not only done for balancing but also for ease of use.

Unchained Monk and Barbarian are actually easier to use than the core veraints of those classes. For a new player figuring out core rage and flurry of blows is quite a challenge.

Unchained Rogue is a bit more complicatd than core rogue because he can basically do the same and more. But compared to a full core caster or complex classes like bard and druid, the unchained rogue is still relatively easy to handle.

If you still want even simler fixes:

Rogue: Give him weapon finesse and dex to damage (finesse weapons only) for free. And maybe a permanent +1 to fort and will saves or make one of those a good save. Allow sneak attack against targets with concealment (but not toal concealment).

Fighter: Two more skill ranks per level. Ignore the combat expertise and Int 13 requirements for maneuver feats so the fighter can actually be reasonable at doing stuff besides damage without wasting ability points and a feat on prerequisites. Apply bravery to more (or even all) kinds of will saves.

Monk: Full BAB, preferably unchained flurry. Anything that allows him to full-attack more often. Maybe spend one Ki point as a swift action to get pounce for a number of rounds equal to his Wis modifier or something like that. Or just give him the Unchained monk's flying Kick at level 3 or 5.

Barbarian: I'd suggest Unchained Rage for ease of use. Beyond that, the barbarian has the same mobility problem as the monk. Maybe give him the ability to spend additinal rage rounds to get iterative attacks on a standard action or charge (spending one round per additional attack). A raging barbarian who can close the distance to his enemies and still full attack is fearsome, even with only core rules.


Giving anything not int based with only 2+int skill points 4+int is a good start, give everyone the combat expertise feat for free so they don't have to waste feats on it.


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Going back to 1st edition, rogues needed A LOT less XP than anyone else to advance in levels. I'm seriously thinking about "every time you get two levels in rogue, you get a bonus level of rogue".

Also: design an adventure that needs lots of skill checks.

Liberty's Edge

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Some of the things I would do: (mostly variations on what others have already offered)

bump skills up to 4+ int for everyone but wizards

Barbarian: just fix how raging temporary HP work to the unchained version

Rogues: Free Weapon Finesse

New feat: Dex instead of Str to damage (helps dex fighters and monks as well as rogues) Maybe rogues get it for free, I think it's existence should be enough.

New Feat: Full attack as a standard

New feat: Favorite spell - choose 1 spell, you treat that spell as being on your spell list for the purposes of UMD (even if you don't have a spell list) this will allow a group without a healer to have someone use a wand of CLW, several other options open up as well, without needing to invest in UMD.


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Full attack as a standard action is an incredibly bad idea, because it'll get your midline-characters (divine casters, archers, rogues) completely obliterated when they get caught out by a move+attack. Don't do that.

Anyway. Before I throw suggestions out there, I'd like to hear about your problems with the Barbarian and Fighter specifically. What are they bad at in game, in your experience?

Monk fix
Problems, as I understand them:
-Survivability, specifically low-level AC, but also hp, mostly as consequence of spread-out stats, low constitution.
-Schizophreniac abilities. Fast Movement wants the monk to dart around the battlefield, Flurry of Blows wants the monk to stand still and make full attacks.
-MADness. Ridiculous reliance on all of Str, Dex, Con, Wis. Even not that good a class if you have all four at high values.

Proposed solutions, 3 points:
-Give monks a +2 AC bump on top of everything they already get at level 1. That should put them on par with rangers, allowing them to focus more on strength for damage and accuracy, or wisdom for ki abilities.
-Raise HD to D10. This helps with MAD, allowing them to focus more on strength for accuracy, or wisdom for ki abilities.
-New Ability: Flying Kick.

Flying Kick wrote:
At third level, the monk gains the ability to make a flying kick once per round before making an attack as part of a flurry of blows. Before the attack, the monk can move a distance equal to his fast movement bonus. This movement is made as part of the monk's flurry of blows attack and does not require an additional action. At the end of this movement, the monk must make an attack against an adjacent foe, continuing his flurry of blows. This ability need not be used at the beginning of the flurry, but can be used after the monk has already made some of the attacks. Despite the name, a flying kick can be performed with any special monk weapon, not merely unarmed strikes. Unlike when taking conventional move actions, a monk can take a five-foot step in the same round he makes a flying kick.

There we go. The Monk is now a highly mobile striker. Low-level damage isn't a problem for monks, but low level AC is.


My advice: Don't sweat it too much. New players playing low level characters aren't going to notice the power gap.

If you want fixes, the quick fixes: Use the background skills option for everyone to make your fighter a bit more well-rounded. Use the unchained rogue to make your rogue more effective in combat. Use the unchained barbarian to make your barbarian easier for new players to manage. Skip the monk as a class altogether.

Grand Lodge

Without Adding More books:

Give the Fighter:
4+int Skill points and adds Acrobatics, Heal, Perception to it's class skills.
Use the Ranger Save Progression

Give the Rogue:
Give the Rogue a Choice between Ranger saves or Bard Saves.
Give the Rogue Free Weapon Finesse at 1st level and at 3rd level give them Dex to Damage.
Use the Most Current rules for Sneak Attack.

Give the Monk:
Free Weapon Focus. This Does not give him full BaB but does help.
Give the Monk a D10 HD


Olaf the Holy wrote:
Full attack as a standard action is an incredibly bad idea, because it'll get your midline-characters (divine casters, archers, rogues) completely obliterated when they get caught out by a move+attack. Don't do that.

Yeah, I also find that a bad idea.

Olaf the Holy wrote:

Anyway. Before I throw suggestions out there, I'd like to hear about your problems with the Barbarian and Fighter specifically. What are they bad at in game, in your experience?

My experience with Fighters is that they become one-sided due to their lack of versatility. They have way too few skill points, and whilst they have a lot of feats, they can basically only choose one big feat chain that doesn't result in something truly interesting until a lot of levels in. So they are great at first (because of hp and damage), and then the "I roll to attack" on every turn shtick gets old, and then you have to wait until level 10 to be cool again, and then you realise you aren't as cool as the Wonk or Ranger anyway.

Barbarians are way more interesting than the other martial classes, but still, I'd probably rank any of the spellcasters as better classes. Some rage powers are cooler than some Rogue talents, but I feel like the latter gives room for more versatility. Maybe I'll just print out rage powers from the APG. I also feel like rage is perhaps a bit more complicated than it needs to be -- but I'm told unchained rage might be something to look at for this.

I want to stress that I don't think the game is *that* broken, like many people allude to at times. And since I am GM-ing newbies, I'm not dealing with especially optimised characters either. That's why I'm mostly interested in minor wibbles that make martial classes more fun and versatile.

Thanks for your suggestions for the other two classes! My issues with the Monk is primarily the "schizophrenia" you mention, but MAD is also frustrating at times. Low survivability is not something any table I've been at has had real issues with, when it comes to the Monk.


Instead of making full attacks standard actions (which has all sorts of unintended consequences), I like the idea of allowing you to make two attacks with two weapon fighting (or Flurry of Blows) as a standard action, taking typical TWF penalties

This helps TWF Fighters and Rangers, Monks, and Rogues. More of a quality of life change than anything. (Outside of core, you need to consider Magus and a few other special cases, but it is very rarely game breaking.)

Also strongly agree with 4+ INT skills for fighter, and using the Unchained Rogue (or at least free Finesse/Dex to Damage).


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Pathfinder Unchained is the resource to go to here.
It has everything needed for monk, rogue and barbarian as well as the summoner.
For the fighter, just use the stamina system and give them background skills, works already fine.

Dataphiles

Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Martial Classes - Free Toughness Feat

Fighters - 4 Skill Points / LV is needed (All class should have minimum 4 IMHO), Pick 2 new class skills.
- Give them a few more Bonus Feats early say lv 3 and 5 to avoid class diping but making them more versatile
- Allow them Full attacks if moving but I suggest at a penalty(-4 to each attack?) (so the fighter can choose the his methof of attack

Rogue's - free weapon finesse @ LV1 and shadow stike feat @LV3, bonus AC (Say +1 Dodge Bonus per 15Ft) if moving "X" distance, if critcal hit is confirmed change sneak attack dice to 1d6+x ) [X=rogue level /4 minimum 1)

Give the Monk Sneak attack but progress at 1 die per 3 levels.

Sovereign Court

alexanderb wrote:
Ascalaphus wrote:
...
Looking at the Unchained classes, it looks like these are drop-in-replacement-friendly for the Core Rulebook. I might just print those from the d20pfsrd, and tell people to use them. :) Thanks a lot for the suggestions!

The unchained barbarian is about even with the chained one. Not strictly necessary, if you want to minimize differences with Core.

The unchained monk is fine, it's basically got a lot of the ways monks got helped with archetypes consolidated and sanitized into one package.

Unchained rogue looks like a lot of fun. The Finesse abilities make it viable in combat. Debilitating injury is a real team player ability, it lets a rogue facilitate flanking by nerfing an enemy's movement, or debuff attacks or defences as needed. It really brings home the idea of the rogue as a dirty fighter.

Fighter wasn't fixed in Unchained, but the big problem is just giving them an out of combat role. With a more generous helping of skill points, you can play them as credible professional soldiers, mercenaries, career officers, knights, strategists, bodyguards or whatever, instead of only as a lummox that can beat people up.

Given that fighter's combat-related class abilities are roughly as strong as those of the barbarian, it makes sense that their out of combat abilities should be similarly high too.

---

As for a few other proposals floated here:


  • Full attacks on a standard: if everyone can get it, it won't change anything about the gap between barbarians, rangers, paladins on the one hand, and monks and fighters on the other hand. If only fighters and monks get it, that just means you need a fighter dip. Besides, the problem with fighters isn't that they can't fight well enough, it's that they're not good enough at other things than fighting.
  • Better saving throws for rogues and fighters: that's not a crazy idea. Many classes get two good saves. And generally, Will saves are rated most important (save vs. killing your party), Fort also high (save vs. immediate death) and Reflex last (save for half damage). Rogues as envisioned as crafty and independent operators could stand to get a good Will save. Fighters can be imagined as either disciplined or as good with rolling with the punches, so either Reflex or Will as a strong save makes sense. We don't want to steal monks' thunder by giving them three good saves, so maybe let fighters choose?
  • Giving all non-int-caster classes 4+int skill points: also not a bad idea. It provides another incentive not to dump Int too much because now you'd lose out more. (If you get only 2+int skill points, there's no difference between Int 8 and 7.) This is good if you want to expand the non-combat part of your game and want all classes to participate. Paladins, clerics and sorcerers are generally imagined as being good at various skills, but tend to lack to points to make that a reality.

Finally, a thought about class balance: you don't need perfect parity, you just need everyone to feel valuable.

That means that outside combat, everyone can contribute, from an an angle fitting their class. Wizards and bards tend to win the knowledge game. Bards, rogues, monks and rangers are best at stealth. Clerics, sorcerers, rogues, bards are strong at "nice" social stuff. Although fighters should be able to play there too if they're "officer material" or knight-like. Hence giving fighters Diplomacy and Sense Motive as additional class skills.

And inside combat, fighting classes should be best at actual fighting. In the nice party, the wizard supports the fighter rather than trying to kill-steal. Working together they're stronger than everyone trying racing to steal glory on his own.


This should pretty much work no matter what content you allow in your game.


  • All full arcane casters get no good saves.
  • Anyone who casts more than 4th level spells or 6th level alchemy (no one first party does) gets one good saves. (Organized backgrounds like temple clerics and conservatory trained bards keep will. Self taught backgrounds like itinerant priests and wandering minstrels lose will if they have another save. Classes in this category like Oracle who already only have one save keep it no matter their background.)
  • Anyone with 4th level spells or 6th or less level alchemy (always exactly six in first party content at this time) gets two good saves. (I think they all already do.)
  • Anyone who doesn't cast spells or do alchemy gets all good saves.
  • Anyone with less than 4+int skill points per level gets 4+int skill points per level.
  • Anyone with no spells or alchemy becomes full BAB.
  • Summoners do not exist because turning a pseudo-full caster into an actual full caster would require changing their spell list. (But you don't have to worry about that until you start using non-core content.)

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For monks and rogues, let players use the unchained versions of the class.

For fighters, let players select options from Weapon Master Handbook and Armor Master Handbook. Specifically, the advanced weapon training options. By the time the players reach a level where those options become available, they should already have a couple of months of games under their belt and should be able to handle it. I'd recommend the Stamina rules from Pathfinder Unchained, but those can be a bit overwhelming.

Another helpful thing is letting players get Weapon Finesse for free.


alexanderb wrote:
Olaf the Holy wrote:
Full attack as a standard action is an incredibly bad idea, because it'll get your midline-characters (divine casters, archers, rogues) completely obliterated when they get caught out by a move+attack. Don't do that.

Yeah, I also find that a bad idea.

Olaf the Holy wrote:

Anyway. Before I throw suggestions out there, I'd like to hear about your problems with the Barbarian and Fighter specifically. What are they bad at in game, in your experience?

My experience with Fighters is that they become one-sided due to their lack of versatility. They have way too few skill points, and whilst they have a lot of feats, they can basically only choose one big feat chain that doesn't result in something truly interesting until a lot of levels in. So they are great at first (because of hp and damage), and then the "I roll to attack" on every turn shtick gets old, and then you have to wait until level 10 to be cool again, and then you realise you aren't as cool as the Wonk or Ranger anyway.

Barbarians are way more interesting than the other martial classes, but still, I'd probably rank any of the spellcasters as better classes. Some rage powers are cooler than some Rogue talents, but I feel like the latter gives room for more versatility. Maybe I'll just print out rage powers from the APG. I also feel like rage is perhaps a bit more complicated than it needs to be -- but I'm told unchained rage might be something to look at for this.

Thanks for your suggestions for the other two classes! My issues with the Monk is primarily the "schizophrenia" you mention, but MAD is also frustrating at times. Low survivability is not something any table I've been at has had real issues with, when it comes to the Monk.

Huh. I find that monks die left and right, personally. Way more squishy than other martials. If you don't think it's a problem, you can just ommit the survivability parts of the fix, obviously.

Anyway, I can't really help you with the barbarian, if you feel that they should be vaguely 'stronger'. I can say that I think you using APG rage powers is a good idea for boosting power, and that unchained rage makes things a lot simpler. If you want more than that, perhaps up their damage reduction to 1/2 per level.

What I can help with though, is the fighter. I think I have the perfect thing for making it less samey in play.

Fighter fix
Percieved Issues:
-Use-impaired (that's the polite term for 'useless') outside of combat.
-Boring, repetitive gameplay in combat.

Proposed Solutions:
-Increase skills to 4+int/lvl.
-Add Heal, Knowledge(Local), Knowledge(Nobility) and Sense Motive as class skills. Things that makes sense for a soldier, military commander, captain of the city guard etc.
-Add the following two abilities at first level:

Tactician wrote:

A fighter can take a move action to gain the benefit of a combat feat she doesn't possess. This effect lasts for 1 minute. The fighter must meet all the feat's prerequisites. She may use this ability a number of times per day equal to 3 + 1/2 her fighter level (minimum 1).

The fighter can use this ability again before the duration expires in order to replace the previous combat feat with another choice.
If a combat feat has a daily use limitation (such as Stunning Fist), any uses of that combat feat while using this ability count toward that feat's daily limit.
At 6th level, a fighter can use this ability to gain the benefit of two combat feats at the same time. She may select one feat as a swift action or two feats as a move action. She may use one of these feats to meet a prerequisite of the second feat; doing so means that she cannot replace a feat currently fulfilling another's prerequisite without also replacing those feats that require it. Each individual feat selected counts toward her daily uses of this ability.
At 10th level, a fighter can use this ability to gain the benefit of three combat feats at the same time. She may select one feat as a free action, two feats as a swift action, or three feats as a move action. She may use one of the feats to meet a prerequisite of the second and third feats, and use the second feat to meet a prerequisite of the third feat. Each individual feat selected counts toward her daily uses of this ability.
At 12th level, a fighter can use this ability to gain the benefit of one combat feat as an immediate action or three combat feats as a swift action. Each individual feat selected counts toward her daily uses of this ability.
At 20th level, a fighter can use this ability to gain the benefit of any number of combat feats as a swift action. Each feat selected counts toward her daily uses of this ability.
Fighter's Cunning wrote:
If the fighter's intelligence score is less than 13, it counts as 13 for the purpose of meeting the prerequisites of combat feats.

-Since this makes the first level quite bloated, I'd also remove the first-level bonus feat.

This lets you take 1 'main feat tree' into high levels, but also lets fighters mess around with different feats in each combat. If you spend some of your normal feats on prerequisites, such as Improved Unarmed Strike, Power Attack, and Combat Expertise, you can easily pick up an entire specialised feat tree for the purpose of one combat.

This will make their gameplay a lot less boring at high levels, since you can try out a new combat maneuver or fighting style each combat, and have your tactics adapt to the combat you face. I think this will solve most of your fighter issues.


If your players want to play a barbarian, definitely use the unchained version. One problem the barbarian has had for many years is that when he drops out of rage, he runs the risk of losing enough hit points to outright die. There is also the temporary increase to ability scores that can be complicated for new players. Unchained fixes both of the these problems. I could take or leave all the other options, but the unchained version of rage is something that is long overdue.

Although the fighter didn't officially have a rewrite in the unchained book, there are the Stamina and Combat Tricks Optional Rules that can be given to them for free. **Still does not "fix" the complaints with the class**, but at least having a point pool gives the player a little something extra to do during a fight. Unless you want something more complex or a completely new class, just use Stamina and give them 2 extra skill points.


Rogue fix
Problems as I understand them:
-Combination of medium BAB, TWF penalties, and the need for upkeeping two weapons, accuracy is lacking behind.
-With the need to upkeep TWF feats, and the need for weapon finesse, a non-human rogue has open feats at level 5, 7, 11, 13, 17 and 19.
-Some minor survivability problems relating to low will and fortitude saves.

Proposed solution:
-Give them weapon finesse for free at first level. It exists as a rogue talent already, but 2nd level is simply too late for it to come online.
-Reduce the penalty from Two-Weapon Fighting by 2 across the board. This applies to all creatures, not only rogues.

I feel this is fair, as Two-weapon fighting is tied with Sword and Board for being the worst fighting style. (Excepting of course the 'swashbuckler' 1-handed style, but that's a unicorn in Core only, so it doesn't really count.)

I'd also allow half the enhancements from each character's "main" magic weapon to copy over to a single "secondary" weapon, but that's a much less simple houserule, so you probably won't want to use it.


As an alternative to giving the rogue weapon finesse and stuff to make 2-weapon fighting easier, just pump strength and carry a big effing weapon. Don't need too many feats for that. Oh and talk to your allies about helping you get flanks.


That is true. There are ways to build around the issue.

For example, this rogue build:

Human Rogue 8
Feats
1 - Point Blank Shot
H - Precise Shot
2b - Weapon Focus: Shortbow (Weapon Training)
3 - Rapid Shot
5 - Quick Draw/Improved Initiative/Skill Focus: Intimidate
7 - Dazzling Display
8b - Shatter Defenses (Combat Trick)

It works best if there's a teammate who is also intimidate-focused, but can be its own set-upper in a pinch.

The main problem is that it doesn't do f#&$all damage from levels 1-7.

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I'm somewhat amused that the OP asks for a simple fix and half the folks here respond with really high scope, complicated suggestions, some of them completely changing the game entirely.


alexanderb wrote:

Help me identify underpowered classes, and suggest house rules to mitigate them a bit.

Note that I am using the Core Rulebook only.

In my experience as a player, Fighter and Rogue are the most underpowered, followed by Monk and Barbarian. This experience is obviously subjective and limited by which classes I have played myself, and how other people at the table have played others, so I accept that it might be wrong. Correct me if that's the case.

Good house rules are typically simple to understand, and not too extreme in their implications. One that I frequently use is to give the Fighter 4 skill ranks per level instead of 2.

P.S.
Feel free to post suggestions for mitigating overpowered classes too.

gee, core rulebook only. That's missing out on almost 8 years of publications.

I can't suggest things like Quickrunner's Shirts or staggerproof boots, as though they grant extra move actions they aren't in core rule book. Stamina Pool rules for fighter are good but not in core rulebook. Unchained rogue and unchained Monk are great too, but not in core rulebook.

I often grant Weapon Finesse as a Bonus Feat to all on the rationale that it's ridiculous that a high dex character is more likely to hit someone by throwing a dagger at them from 10ft away than stabbing them from 5ft away. It shouldn't take a feat to hit someone in a more dexterous rather than strong forceful way. That generally benefits everyone going for a dex-focused build.

As a simple rule, you may decree that piercing weapons are insensitive to strength, the idea that it doesn't matter how hard you stab someone with a rapier you've either stabbed them or you haven't. So you can go low strength with few penalties. Combined with weapon finesse, a rogue or monk can be more viable by going highly dex focused.

Allow personal spells in potions and drop things like Mirror-Strike. This is similar to cleave, basically if you have two enemies within reach who have the same AC, if you can hit one them you can hit BOTH of them, but each only takes half damage. But fighters can have such high damage that mean they can still kill two birds with one stone so to speak. You could houserule it that no PC can add personal spells into a potion, only by some other means that you control so the potions are dropped as loot so you can add and remove at your discretion.

But Mirror Strike isn't in core-rulebook. Hell, enlarge person isn't even in the core rulebook!

Every line of advice I come up with is limited by how it's not in core-rulebook. I really suggest just branching out to things other than core rulebook.

In the 8 years of publications since the core-rulebook fighters, rogues and monks have been given so much to make them more viable. It's hard to see quick and easy fixes for those initially underpowered classes.

Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder First Edition / Homebrew and House Rules / Suggest house rules to help underpowered classes [Core Rulebook] All Messageboards

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