General precautions taken by legitimate Authority (Or, why my Level 3 Kitsune Fey Bloodline Sorcerror isn't ruling the world)


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion


Come on, admit it.
We've all had the thought.

"Charm person is a first level spell, my Diplomacy modifier is off the charts, and the mayor of Thebes (City of a Thousand Troubles!) is inviting me into his office.
It can't be THAT hard to bamboozle this small minded bureaucrat.
And if I'm in charge, I'm sure I could rule with an iron...I mean, do the most good with all that power"

And if WE'VE all had that thought, shouldn't it be a given that the small minded bureaucrats have had the thought?
And done something about it?

Because my post seems to be lacking a question thus far, I'll simply ask.

What are some reasonable precautions you believe every in game political power should abide by/utilize, in order to ensure they are in fact in charge of their own decisions?


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My favorite catch-all method is warding important government buildings with a hallow spell, with dispel magic attached. If you try to cast charm person on the mayor, it immediately gets counterspelled and/or dispelled - and if you happen to be evil, it just plain doesn't work.

Contributor

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The easiest explanation is, as Ultimate Intrigue puts it, "Diplomacy is not mind control." You could have the highest Diplomacy bonus in the world, but your check doesn't negate free will.

As for charm person, the spell specifically says that you can't make someone do something they wouldn't normally do. They treat you as a friend, but friendship doesn't mean blind loyalty.


Have detect magic (backed up by arcane sight as needed) used in everyone entering an important building like a bank or palace.


They got there by researching people, and surrounding themselves with like minded experts. I've never been that kind of player, but if anybody in the party is, one room in the building is a dead magic zone. It is there where the plot hook meets the characters, especially if they need to disclose sensitive information.

Doppelgangers are neutral, right? You may be meeting with a mercenary doppleganger who gets paid to meet with dangerous murderhobos. If you ask a lot of follow up questions they may offer a goodie to take the job blind. Since a goodie may be a wand of cure mod or a glove of vampiric touch, I would take the job.

Some cool magic items to protect the plot hook.
Ring of protection from evil.
Pendant of non detection.
Diadem of mind blank.
Maybe an outsider is wearing a hat of disguise and testing you.

Liberty's Edge

Charm Person isn't mind control, nor is Diplomacy. Charm Person only makes a person friendly towards you, which only makes them more amenable to requests. And "make a request" with Diplomacy isn't mind control either, if a person wouldn't doo something for anyone else... even their closest friend, they wouldn't do it for you regardless of the result of your Diplomacy roll.

The way I always handled that as GM was I would first figure their attitude (friendly with Charm Person) and then I would consider if the specific person being Diplomacy'd would do the request being made for most people that they have this particular attitude towards, if the answer is "no" then they would not do it (and with Charm Person it'd require an opposed Charisma check). But Charm Person only lasts for 1 hour per level, chances are you'll be found out sooner or later if you pulled anything illegal. And the standard Mayor from the NPC codex is level 10 with a Will save of +8 and a Charisma of 14... And GMs can easily scale them up if you're pulling stuff like what you suggested.

Dominate Person on the other hand IS mind control, but tends to be very obvious and difficult to maintain.... And is a much higher level spell than Charm Person


draykhar wrote:

Come on, admit it.

We've all had the thought.

"Charm person is a first level spell, my Diplomacy modifier is off the charts, and the mayor of Thebes (City of a Thousand Troubles!) is inviting me into his office.
It can't be THAT hard to bamboozle this small minded bureaucrat.
And if I'm in charge, I'm sure I could rule with an iron...I mean, do the most good with all that power"

And if WE'VE all had that thought, shouldn't it be a given that the small minded bureaucrats have had the thought?
And done something about it?

Because my post seems to be lacking a question thus far, I'll simply ask.

What are some reasonable precautions you believe every in game political power should abide by/utilize, in order to ensure they are in fact in charge of their own decisions?

Charm Person makes the target you cast it on treat you as a valued friend. That's it. There's opposed Charisma checks for stuff that the affected creature wouldn't normally do, and for anything that is obviously harmful/suicidal to the target, or directly conflicts with the moral code of the target, instantly fails, no questions asked. The first sentence of this part is important to the context of the spell's effect; the target treats you as a valued friend.

In most cases of today's society, a valued friend may give a charge-free ride or passage to a certain area, perhaps help them with a certain renovation project (such as moving, improving the house, etc.), or also arrange a sort of deal or agreed-upon "trade" between the two for goods or services rendered, even cut a deal for said friend. Heck, even taking them out to dinner, providing support for a troubled time, or even lending money (with a promissory note to be paid back in full, most likely); all of these are common things that a person would most likely do for their valued friend.

The big question becomes: What would YOU do for a valued friend?

Obviously, some people may do or treat friends in better ways, sometimes even worse, and it doesn't really change how they would interact with these sorts of people in general, except for how you would be treated by them, as if you were of a type that is (usually) more favorable to their eye.

I mean, if a person who is a friend to another is treated like crap (such as the person being a jerk or has major trust issues with anyone, friends included), the benefits of a Charm Person would not really be prevalent, or even exist at all (, as, for example, if that person is a jerk to all of his friends, in addition to being a jerk to every other random person, he would still treat you like a jerk, even if you are a valued friend to him).

So clearly, there is precedent for the mayor to not follow what the player would ask/advise the mayor to do, and that is because even for a valued friend, he would not do these things. This requires that a character has, what I like to call, "absolute values," things that, no matter the circumstance, will never change. For example, if there is a city law that states only royal blood can rule the city (such as the mayor), then the mayor would not appoint someone who doesn't possess the royal bloodline, even if they are a valued friend to the mayor.

This isn't to say that Charm Person is useless; it still has value. It's just not a catch-all spell or ability that lets you do whatever the hell you want just because you make the spell work, or you succeed at a check. There are certain things that require checks to do, or just cannot work, and they are spelled out in both the Diplomacy skill and the Charm Person spell. A lot of players and GMs ignore them, for reasons unexplained (probably because without it being treated as a "catch-all," it's not all that great).

Scarab Sages

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You can get a lot out of charm person. You can get someone to stop attacking you, you can get them to buy you a mug of ale, convince them to fight for you and you could even get them to loan you some coin. But if they wouldn't do it for their best friend you still have the charisma check. Here is where I suggest the Circlet of Persuasion. The charisma check does not allow you to make them do something obviously harmful though.

Let me take a moment to explain "obviously harmful"...
If I ask someone to cut their self with a razor that is obviously harmful.
But so is me asking someone to give me their house. They are being financially harmed. Same with the mayor. They would consider it harm to lose their position with nothing in exchange for it with no motive to do so.

Now that I have explained that... there is one things you can do in response. If their best friend could convince them that it is in their best interest to give up the job then that is something you could do too. This is the same as asking "Mayor, go kill that obviously more powerful than you creature... he said he was going to harm your kids". In that case, while it is obviously suicidal, you have given him a reason to do it. He probably won't accomplish the task by just throwing his body on the blade. He will think about his own life and accomplish the task in his own way. And, if he values his life more than his kids? He just won't do it.

You could also give the mayor advice on how to run his village and he is likely to take it, or at least consider it seriously. In this way you could manipulate the situation so that you eventually come into power. You just typically can't do it over night. This would also require some way to hide your casting and hide your failed attempts from your quarry. There are classes and feats which can accomplish this.

Diplomacy on its own, on the other hand, can not get you anything that person would not do for anyone else they consider a friend. But, then again, there are tons of stories that include someone pretending to be a friend and then usurping someones place. It can be done. Just usually not with one roll of the dice.

.......

Having said all of that and not really answering the OP... I will say that I typically take into account the wealth and opportunity of the ones in charge. A tiny village leader won't have much in the way of protection without a local caster to ask for assistance. They just can't afford it. But king's, rulers of city states, any ruler living in a mage heavy country... really anyone with access to the obvious protections probably has permanent versions of the better protections built-in to their position.

An Anti-Magic Field for the throne room? Why not. Special materials put into the mortar of the fort that prevent phasing through the walls? Sure. Protection From Evil is an easy one to get. If it makes sense that a wealthy place will be attacked in a certain way... they probably thought to put up a defense against that certain way. Whether it is teleportation/mind control/stone meld/earth glide... there are permanent ways to handle it for the right price.

Many ways to get through stone can be easily prevented by using rocks smaller than a medium creature and stacking them with mortar. Or just using stone shape to put gaps in the rock.

Mind control is easy to fix. Most PCs have a way to deal with this... why not the ruler of a city-state?

Teleportation is pretty easy to defend against too. Though, often costly.


Checks and balances: So what if you dominated a senator? There's a hundred of them and you need a majority.

People coming and going into secure areas are given simple frisks or even just a handshake (someone with prestidigitation hopefully). This stops Disguise Person because it doesn't change tactile features. Pathfinder nerfed Alter Self's duration hard so it's not as serious a concern.


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I assume that local good temples will do a certain amount of this kind of stuff for free on a regular basis as part of their civic duty -- e.g., magic circle against evil, detect charm on leaders, other protective spells as the occasion seems to demand. Ditto an authorized wizards' guild -- part of their founding charters is that they provide magical security to the local ruling class or the city.

People with major resources probably have the wherewithal to get their court wizard to cast lots of permanent spells on them, and do other spellcasting on a regular basis. (Why does the spellcaster do this instead of taking over? If he's a lawful or good cleric, it's what his god wants; if he's not an out-and-out dominant himself, he may assume that letting someone else take care of all the irritating details AND pay him while he busies himself with the really fun stuff like magic is a really good deal -- not every spellcaster is the sort of personality type who's out to rule the world -- "wants to rule, and is good at it" is orthogonal to "magical talent".)

In my campaign worlds, most of this stuff exists in the background; it's there, but not mentioned unless it becomes relevant. Major buildings are warded in various ways, and there are mundane means as well (e.g., lead-lined "secure rooms" to block scrying, or hallow spells on any major religious buildings.) Most people are vaguely aware of this and don't do too much to rock the status quo (A good Knowledge or Profession check would let one know what the local rules are, though details of security spells are often kept secret.)

A few good outsiders (planar ally or just "sent by the local patron deity") are likely to be hanging out in the ethereal plane keeping an eye out for anything too abusive. There might be legal enforcement, too -- e.g., in the late Roman Empire, attempting to cast a divination spell regarding the Emperor, or even calculate his horoscope, carried the death penalty (seriously, look it up).

Generally, a GM should assume that if it were easy to take over the government this way, someone else would already have done it and be the new government, and therefore be wary of anyone else doing the same thing -- which gives you a handy angle to frustrate PCs. (If magic is very rare, or very new, in your campaign world, this is unlikely to apply, but that's campaign-dependent.)


The best answer to charm person is to never meet anyone alone. When you talk to they mayor, he has his two bodyguard with him. His bodyguards have enough ranks in spellcraft to recognize spellcasting. Said bodyguards have improved initiative and have a decent chance of reacting to a spellcaster with a sword to the face.

Before meeting with anyone, the mayor takes a hit from his wand of protection from Alignment that matches the people he is meeting. A richer mayor just gets a casting of all 4.

A really rich mayor just wears bracers of armor enchanted with Mind buttressing.


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deuxhero wrote:
Checks and balances: So what if you dominated a senator? There's a hundred of them and you need a majority.

I can think of a few uses for that:

1) It is possible that the vote is close enough that changing just one of them could actually matter.

2) If that senator is up for re-election, a single vote (or, better yet, series of votes) that goes against everything he campaigned for could ensure his defeat in that election. Better yet, just have him do something so scandalous that his political career is finished.

3) If it is known that magically dominating people is a thing, any public official who lets that happen to him can be dinged for having lax security.


Unless you have two feats or a prestige class, they're going to see you casting the spell. And unless you can charm everybody at once, you're going to be in a lot of trouble for casting magic in the presence of a small-minded bureaucrat.

I would imagine once your small political body is large enough to have this problem, there's a caster (maybe part of the local clergy) who checks the members for enchantments in the morning (possibly at lunch), and at least one guard to stop any casting. Charming the caster wouldn't be enough, since they'd be in a lot of trouble for lying about their duties, so it'd need to be one of the heavy-duty compulsions. A larger organization might have an additional check of some sort as well.

Love the Hallow/Dispel Magic suggestion, though. I didn't realize that was an option, and will definitely have it in suitably important offices.


Charm Person makes you many things... The Mule is not one of them.

Liberty's Edge

David knott 242 wrote:
deuxhero wrote:
Checks and balances: So what if you dominated a senator? There's a hundred of them and you need a majority.

I can think of a few uses for that:

1) It is possible that the vote is close enough that changing just one of them could actually matter.

2) If that senator is up for re-election, a single vote (or, better yet, series of votes) that goes against everything he campaigned for could ensure his defeat in that election. Better yet, just have him do something so scandalous that his political career is finished.

3) If it is known that magically dominating people is a thing, any public official who lets that happen to him can be dinged for having lax security.

Ya see in these circumstances that's when it becomes interesting and potentially threaded into the plot. The scope is still limited (depending on the vote involved). This becomes less about excessive overreach of power (even a Charm Person could potentially influence a vote) but more about influencing something specific for a specific end.

Maybe the vote is on whether our not to desegregate several races in the city, or possibly the reverse... I dunno I just see a lot of cool story potential in a tight political vote. Lots of... Intrigue.

The Exchange

I actually had a gm use charm person to try to get my half orc inquisitor of Gorum to stop a fight in the middle, after we had just fought through a horde of undead that this person controlled. I looked at my gm and said "if my very best friend were to send a wave of undead at me I would still try to kill them." And preceded to attack the boss.


For most officials, protection spells are probably the most likely and cost efficient options. Likely they are offered by the church or priests who are well-known or trusted, either by the community or the official.

Cerwin wrote:
I actually had a gm use charm person to try to get my half orc inquisitor of Gorum to stop a fight in the middle, after we had just fought through a horde of undead that this person controlled. I looked at my gm and said "if my very best friend were to send a wave of undead at me I would still try to kill them." And preceded to attack the boss.

Sorry to say this, but your actions were wrong. Your excuse is taken into account with a +5 save bonus for having been attacked by either the caster or his apparent allies, the undead. That is a HUGE bonus and more than fair for you to be asked to stop fighting by your best friend.

Your actual thought would have been 'My best friend just apparently sent a wave of undead at me, he must have a good reason' Not, 'I kill him anyway and ignore the purpose of the spell, which is to have my character do something not-unreasonable (like stop fighting and find out why how I can help my best friend).' He didn't ask you to slay your friends or kill yourself. At the very best, you might have been able to continue fighting some of the undead, but that's very, very unlikely since the entirely reasonable request was for you to stop fighting. Obviously you were not being attacked or even threatened any longer, since if the undead did attack you, it would just break the charm. And if the undead weren't considered the caster's allies, then your supposed excuse wouldn't hold water either, since then he wouldn't have been sending waves of them at you.


Drahliana Moonrunner wrote:
Charm Person makes you many things... The Mule is not one of them.

No one got my Asimovian reference... (sigh)


Drahliana Moonrunner wrote:
Drahliana Moonrunner wrote:
Charm Person makes you many things... The Mule is not one of them.
No one got my Asimovian reference... (sigh)

Imagine the Second Foundation: a secretive cult of lawful neutral mesmerists subtly influencing all of Golarion society according to the predictions of the great diviner Hari Seldon.


Important (and unimportant ) people are going to know about magic.
And detect magic is a Cantrip so hiring some one to cast it before an important meeting will be routine. So you cast charm person on the Mayor, the town Wizard standing next to the Mayor is going to notice and the Town Guard turns you into a pin cushion with their crossbows.

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