Gulthor |
Great poem, but you forgot the parts about her hearing stories about the centuries of Dwarves fighting giants, so she knows how they move, or that her father taught her how to use a hammer from a young age since theyre great for breaking up stone in the mine as well as fighting aforementioned giants.
(You know, like how the human grandmother had all those stories about how santa fights and how useful a garrote is in her daily life)
(not a dig at you Mortonator, seriously good impromptu poetry)
Not to mention that dwarven and elven lifespans are far beyond a human's, giving much greater opportunity for such training. Elves aren't even considered adults until after most humans are dead.
Alex Trebek's Stunt Double |
It seems like the reason you're finding humans weak is because your house rules are giving everyone a big bunch of feats (at least 3) right at the start (as you said right back at post 71). My primary suggestion for buffing humans is consequentially: don't do that. If you're giving basically the best thing about being human to everyone, twice, of course they're going to seem weak! By all means, tweak feat trees to make them less feat intensive (we all know they need that), but you should let humans keep the thing that makes them special. It's almost surprising you'd have any humans at all.
They aren't special though.
And I gave those feats because feats are often all non-casters have over casters who can't really do as much with feats. Particularly starting off it makes a huge difference to be able to start off paying your feat tax-dues and get the actual feat you want. For example you need power attack to get cleave, yet you wouldn't use it at level 1. Yet at the same time you can't simply remove power attack as a pre-requisite.
Importantly that is just one example feat combinations and pre-requisite deletions is a never ending rabbit warren I have still not been able to untangle.
I suppose I'm fine with your liberal interpretation of flexible, but I'm aware that it's still very strong and worth a lot. Since you're so liberal with feats I'd scrap the bonus feat completely and just go with even more skill ranks. I'm a big fan of the Focused Study alternate race trait, so you could throw that in there as well. Make the humans good with skills since their feat isn't really a thing anymore. That'd be my choice of things to alter from basic humans.
I'm not interpreting anything any more, I discarded Create New Race rules long ago.
What I am now doing is emulating the trend set by other races which is +2 in one physical and +2 in one mental score (That IS a nerf from before where the +2 could be anywhere) and then a -2 must go somewhere. That is overall a nerf. And I have explained it, this is to stop people picking classes only for their ability score modifiers. It is to show how other races are like a further evolution of a certain human tendency.
I don't know about you, but I certainly couldn't reliably climb at 0.5m/s with ease, even up something simple like a ladder, and especially not if people were being shot at or something nearby. And by 'ease' here I mean for an extended period of time as easily as walking. I don't think I could effectively dodge an attack if I was climbing, either.
You're right not to go there, you shouldn't, it's acting like this fantasy game isn't a fantasy game. To overlook the fantastical.
The humans in pathfinder are supermen in most aspects except when it comes to climb they become all too ordinary. Here they are at 18 years old fluently speaking 7 second languages. Self Taught. Or able to deadlift AND WALK AROUND WITH up to 1000lbs weight.
You doubt they could pull their own 200lbs weight up?
There is no roll for them to lift up a weight 5x as much!
Everyone gets to keep their dex bonus while climbing with 5 ranks, and take a ten at 10-ranks.
Remember, before ANY of all of this they can climb 30ft of free hanging knotted rope per round. Without a single rank. With a flat strength bonus.
That's 1.52m/s climb rate.
But what's dumb is missing by only 5 means you have a sudden attack of incomprehensible incompetence and completely lose all grip! All I'm doing is removing a needlessly capricious element of modest shortcomings in the roll resulting in utterly catastrophic failure of losing all grip and falling whatever height it is.
It's fine to treat climbing like difficult terrain, it's already an inherent cost in needing free hands (what about your weapons not to mention shield!) and almost always moving into an area you cannot see. Players want some options to have consistency, especially non-casters. Casters have so many damn ways to get around, what about people who need to reply on their skills?
This is why I think your comparison is unfair, while casters are having the rule of the roost, you're trying to drag everyone else down!
since if humans had a climb speed, everyone would be able to do that.
They can, after investing ranks in it with Climb Unchained.
Since we have guns everywhere, that makes them simple weapons.
This is an unsafe assumption of the actual rationale for how a weapon is categorised as "simple" or not. The weapons categories are NOT rigidly defined and don't such consistent pattern.
Not that I've ever used a real one, I can imagine most people would be able to use one without a lot of difficulty, and they'd be the weapon of choice. BAM, commoner's simple weapon proficiency dealt with.
No it isn't, you've just imagined something which isn't in pathfinder; Glock semi-automatic pistols, and decreed they should be simple weapons.
Lets stop the analogy abuse.
Lets deal with the actual pathfinder rules.
People able to use other stuff, like swords or bows effectively
You are conflating two different things: Getting a SUITE of weapons proficiencies, a la martial weapons proficiency as granted by a class, which is covering a HUGE number of different weapons, some extremely hard to use properly such as high-poundage longbows,
It's REALLY unusual to be competent with SO MANY weapons, that's why martial classes are very distinct, it's why they take up a whole class level.
What is actually really common is to have special competency in ONE weapon, naturally.
The consistent problem here seems to be an inability to distinguish or conflation between broad proficiency in simple/martial weapons categories and the significance of that one weapon-of-choice how they can figure that out.
And you are still missing my thematic arguments that humans lack much feeling of being special. And what's special about other races is they have weapons specifically themed for their race, like orc weapons for orc.
If the basic NPC classes can take care of the weapon proficiencies actual people have, it's probably not necessary to give everyone weapon proficiency in something else as well.
This does not address my aims of making more weapons be considered by all players of the game, too much of the pathfinder weaponry is locked away. People have tried to argue this locking away of WEAPONS is good as weapons would buff casters more. Nonsense. The thing about casters is they cast. The thing about martials is they use weapons.
Alex Trebek's Stunt Double |
Paraphrasing here:
That's a charitable way of putting "straw man arguments".
What's the point in going through each one? You're making things up about me, like as if all I'd have in a scene is someone dangling by a cliff and the ONLY DRAMA can possibly be from the capriciousness of a dice check?
This is just the same as the spells people won't shut up about how much they hate
"The Evil Wizard casts Finger of Death on you, roll an 11 OR DIE!"
but supposedly we should be fine with
"You're taking an ordinary climb check over cliff, roll an 11 OR DIE!"
How dumb do you think my players are? Do you think they can't see their game hanging on coin-flip odds? The randomness of the die is supposed to bring a degree of uncertainty in the progress, the rate or extent of success. We accept this with other things, we accept this with difficult terrain.
You have also pretended I cannot create tension of a save or die when I want it
Scene:
"the surface is slippery and smooth, also you are overburdened trying to carry the queen, this is harder than the walls you climbed earlier"
"I take a ten"
"It's not enough, you will have to throw your weight into this to stand any chance, you may lose your grip! You need to roll an 11 or higher or you will slip and fall to your death"
That's the way I'd have it, because otherwise my players can do the math. They know even a 25% failure rate in climb rolls means a fall where even falling a short distance they take damage and end up prone is really damn likely. It's not like missing with a melee attack or even failing a status-effect spell. They are risking way too much for too small a gain.
"Except its one handed, which means I can dual wield them or use them with a shield."
Except how terrible Dual Wield is, things like Estoc is only going to make a fun build more in the realms of viable.
Lucerne Hammer and Dwarven Warhammer are still the best melee weapons.
"And you apparently never will, which is why you cant understand why humans don't get proficiency in any weapon they happen to have on their person."
Straw man.
I never said it was proficient just for being on their person. I said they were proficient because it was the ONE WEAPON they focused on being proficient with, over all their formative years.
"No, a person has a 40% chance to fail to meaningfully damage the statue."
Your unfounded claim disagrees with how touch attacks are explicitly stated to work.
"Definitely something people are going to do. I know I often just ignore my races benefits for no reason."
How can you be surprised that humans might waste potential when so many humans do waste their potential?!?
"Youre part of the reason everyone dumps charisma, and a bad DM."
Considering you don't actually address any of my reasons but move straight to scoffing and hyperbolic recriminations, I'll take it you know you are wrong, you just don't like that I'm right. Refute my reasons. To attack the gall of the proposal is dogmatic thinking "how dare this person say different, he's part of the problem!"
"If a player dumps charisma, theyre not a "Forrest Gump", he had a high charisma and a low INT. Theyre a Fat Bastard (of Austin Powers fame)."
Another perpetuation of the myth that charisma is simply good looks. Have you not seen how ugly politicians are?
You seem to labouring under the delusion that I think the Bonus Feat is small enough that I got rid of it. I didn't. I kept it. You cannot argue that it is THAT special, you can only argue that it would be intolerable to have one less feat ONCE YOU ARE AT level 5. You yet again cannot argue with my actual reasoning.
Baval |
lol why is attacking the statue with a bat a touch attack now?
Also, lol fat queen and DC 26 climb check. Still good though, cause a human only needs a +16 to pull himself up 100% of the time. +5 strength, +3 class, and then you only need 8 ranks, not even counting any climbing gear. Such Drama, much wow, humans so in suspense.
Also note that said Human who makes that 10 is now, due to his climb speed, able to jump around dodging arrows and the like shot at him on this wet ledge with a fat queen on his back, cause he doesnt lose his AC while climbing with his climb speed.
Of course, youre self admittedly the kind of DM who goes "oh you prepared for this? let me just increase the DC to make it harder then"
Not to mention youre forgetting the part where I intentionally set up a common drama situation not only in real life, but in fantasy (Remember Gandalf? The Balor scene would have gone a lot differently if he could have just been like "lol 10 foot climb speed I pull myself up, lets walk you fools"), and in order to make it not a joke you had to add in a slippery ledge and a fat queen, and its STILL a joke after level 8-13 depending on strength.
You so silly
And yeah, I am intentionally mocking you, not straw manning you. The difference being that in a straw man a person cant think of a good argument against someone, while when mocking someone you inflate their argument because its so ridiculous it makes it more fun.
For example, I called that you would take everything I said 100% literally, as if I was accusing you of actually saying the words that I was obviously interpreting. Lol
So lets continue
"Dual wielding is bad mmkay no one would ever do it"
Except rogues, and crit builds, and anyone else who does precision damage.
"Warhammer R best wepon 5ever"
1d8 with a x3 crit. Lets pop a look over at exotics for a sec....
Oh look! the Hooked Axe is the exact same stats but with trip and performance. And the Falcata is undeniably better. Ooooh that ones gonna cost you some points on the "Martials R teh best" front isnt it.
(inb4 you jump back to "Yeah but repeating crossbows are lame!" as if everyone doesnt already know that crossbows are bad. lol)
"Lucerne Hammer also Rox my sox"
Ouch, looks like the Dwarven Longaxe is once again just straight better. Martial weapons batting 0 for 2.
And thats just going on weapons that are straight upgrades, not even counting weapons that lower damage dice but make up for it in other ways.
"Humans in real life are noobzors, so my players are definitely going to waste their racial abilities to RP that!"
Why are you arguing with me on this? I definitely totally agreed with you that there are a ton of players out there who will definitely 100% waste their racial abilities for teh lulz. It happens all the time. alllllllllll the time. /s
"I dont have a good excuse to justify why I let players ignore their stats for power, so im just going to accuse you of not liking my DMing style. Its not like dumping charisma and then roleplaying a suave mofo anyway isnt a consistent problem in a lot of groups or anything"
Youre silly. Its fun talking with you.
"Obviously you think Charisma is just beauty, and isnt a measure of personality, so....wait isnt this defeating my own argument? If charisma measures personality shouldnt I enforce people to play like jerks if their Cha says they have bad people skills?"
And yet you still probably wont notice this even after I put the words in your mouth. Also, you know Fat Bastard was both ugly and a terrible unlikable person right? Hes the poster child for bad charisma. Its literally his character design.
"Obviously you think I think that you think I know a bonus feat is nbd. Well it is NBD. Except when it isnt. Then it isnt is. So I need Humans to have it. But they dont need to have it. Cause it doesnt matter. But it does."
Lol you need to decide if a bonus feat is a great thing to have or not, because you alternate between "A bonus feat isnt a big deal, I give them out like candy" and "I NEED TO ADD MORE FEATS TO THIS RACE BECAUSE MY PLAYERS DONT HAVE ENOUGH TO DO WHAT THEY WANT"
Please respond soon =)
Baval |
Also you seem to think skill unlocks are for everyone
Protip: theyre not. Theyre a rogue ability or a feat. If youre giving them out free to everyone thats just another free feat your throwing out there, and if youre not thats another free feat youre throwing humans, brining their total up to 4 effective free feats.
Since you like to compare them so much, lets compare Humans bonuses to Elves.
Stats:
Humans and Elves get the exact same spread, but Humans can place them anywhere they want, meaning they have no meaningful weakness (especially since you dont penalize having a low Charisma in any way)
Advantage: Humans
Speed: Same base speed, but humans get a climb speed cause lolreasons. Not like Elves live in forests or anything, nah Humans are the more likely ones to climb trees, cause they got those 4 fingers and a thumb that elves dont.
Advantage: Humans
Proficiency:
Elves get proficiency in longsword, rapier, shortbow and longbow, four weapons they will either never use or already have proficiency in, depending on if theyre a caster or martial. This means they effectively net 0 gain. If theyre a martial they do get access to the Elven Curve Blade, which is a benefit however.
Humans get proficiency in anything they want, meaning they will 100% of the time have the absolute best weapon, whether it be a net or a gun for a caster, or a Bastard Sword or Falcata for a martial. Or say...an Elven Curve Blade
And no, the fact that elves (or any other race) get more proficiency mean nothing in a game where a character typically uses one weapon with one backup weapon for emergencies.
Advantage: Human (elves get one benefit humans can copy, and humans can also opt instead for better options)
Misc:
Humans get a bonus feat and a bonus class skill
Elves get a ton of niche bonuses such as low light vision (which basically never actually comes up), immunity to magical sleep (which is all but useless after a certain level), bonuses to bypassing SR (good for spellcaster, poor for martials), a +2 to perception and vs enchantments (these two are actually always good)
Advantage: Tie. Elves get a lot of useful in certain situation abilities, while Humans are one feat ahead of everyone in getting powerful abilities. Both have uses.
Overall advantage: Overwhelmingly Human.
Wolin |
Well, I tried, and it went as I expected. You ignored my suggestion to just make humans good at skills and doubled back on yourself with your reasoning about why humans get the climb speed and weapon proficiencies in the first place. Don't use real stuff to justify giving things then reject real stuff that contradicts it.
Seriously, it is all your ridiculously generous house rules. I would honestly as a player complain about that, because it is horribly, horribly strong. You would do better to just not start at level 1 and let people have their feats and skills from levels without massively weakening humans as you currently are.
I'm not sure why you've bothered to ask for suggestions, because you've taken very little on board (In your defence, you've done something at least), responded with abuse to criticism and have repeatedly contracted your arguments, which many people on this thread have pointed out to you. I know this sounds like an attack, but please, if you're coming to people asking for their advice, make sure you're actually open to suggestions. We can't help you if you don't want help. You're just subjecting yourself to hatred and mockery otherwise.
I'm just going to link this to you, and point out 'Guns everywhere', but otherwise, I'm done with this. Whatever you decide to do, enjoy your games.
Alex Trebek's Stunt Double |
Well, I tried, and it went as I expected. You ignored my suggestion to just make humans good at skills and doubled back on yourself
Just because I didn't do what you told me to do doesn't mean I ignored you. If I ignored you I wouldn't have replied to all the things you said. Please could people stop acting so entitled, as if just because you put forward a suggestion I should use it.
Skill Focus is already so similar to just getting a new class skill except it can stack on top of the +3 from putting the first rank into a class skill. It doesn't really serve their needs which is making up for poor class skills when playing unusual classes.
I would honestly as a player complain about that, because it is horribly, horribly strong. You would do better to just not start at level 1 and let people have their feats and skills from levels without massively weakening humans as you currently are.
It's horribly horribly strong but I'm weakening humans?!?!
And no, I have my reasons for not just starting at a higher level, I don't want casters moving straight to the higher level spells. Because I've had that before.
I'm not sure why you've bothered to ask for suggestions, because you've taken very little on board (In your defence, you've done something at least)
I have literally changed every single trait from my original post. That's more than something. That's everything.
responded with abuse to criticism
Where?
I think when you take your time to let your angry emotions settle and look back you will see it's the abuse which has been hurled at me and I have criticised it.
have repeatedly contracted your arguments
Yes, concessions to where people have proven they are right. But I cannot and will not contract to nothing simply because people heap on more condensing abuse.
which many people on this thread have pointed out to you
They haven't actually pointed much out, there is a difference between pointing out and hurling accusations.
I know this sounds like an attack, but please, if you're coming to people asking for their advice, make sure you're actually open to suggestions.
Well... I have literally changed EVERY SINGLE ASPECT of my original proposal.
How about you are open to the idea your suggestion won't be good enough.
I am rather fed up of being attacked with the double fallacy that I am simultaneously:
(1) Dogmatically refusing to change or consider anything
(2) I have "repeatedly" contracted on some arguments which proves I must be entirely wrong.
We can't help you if you don't want help. You're just subjecting yourself to hatred and mockery otherwise.
I have learned to ignore hateful bullies. I have also learned that every single bully with almost zero exceptions is absolutely certain to their very soul that they are in the right, that they are the heroes of their own . Even if you can logically challenge them that they are giving in to hatred and harassment (mockery) they are of course absolutely sure that it's okay simply because "hey, they made ME angry, it's okay when *I* lose MY temper!"
@Baval
"lol why is attacking the statue with a bat a touch attack now?"
Because it has no armour bonus! Nor Natural armour nor shield bonus.
I'm fed up of stating the obvious on this.
Wonderstell |
1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I have learned to ignore hateful bullies. I have also learned that every single bully with almost zero exceptions is absolutely certain to their very soul that they are in the right, that they are the heroes of their own . Even if you can logically challenge them that they are giving in to hatred and harassment (mockery) they are of course absolutely sure that it's okay simply because "hey, they made ME angry, it's okay when *I* lose MY temper!"
Do you often feel that you encounter bullies when you argue?
Would you say this happens more often than not?
Cyrad RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 16 |
4 people marked this as a favorite. |
Quote:We can't help you if you don't want help. You're just subjecting yourself to hatred and mockery otherwise.I have learned to ignore hateful bullies. I have also learned that every single bully with almost zero exceptions is absolutely certain to their very soul that they are in the right, that they are the heroes of their own . Even if you can logically challenge them that they are giving in to hatred and harassment (mockery) they are of course absolutely sure that it's okay simply because "hey, they made ME angry, it's okay when *I* lose MY temper!"
Even if you perceive a comment as a personal attack, rude and dismissive remarks are not an acceptable response.
Understand that this forum is a community of people that believes in collaboration and reception of ideas for the purpose of creating a better game. Critique, sometimes even harsh at times, is a pillar of this community. The kind of dismissive attitude you displayed whereupon you treat critics as bullies and trolls is not welcome here.
Also realize that you're relatively new to this community while many of these people you describe as "bullies" who are "absolutely certain to their very soul that are in the right" have been designing Pathfinder content here and GMing games for years. Some of them are game designers that have been paid for their work and taken the craft beyond a hobby. The kind of contempt you have for these "hateful bullies" who are genuinely attempting to help you is nothing short of disrespectful. Especially to folks who likely have considerably more experience than you do.
And if you already made up your mind and totally disagree with all of these people, then there's really no point in continuing this discussion. If you truly feel they aren't helping you, then arguing back and giving condescending remarks does not accomplish anything but create unwelcome hostility in this community. Even if you feel they're doing the same to you. You're better off ignoring them or dropping the thread entirely.
Atarlost |
And if you already made up your mind and totally disagree with all of these people, then there's really no point in continuing this discussion. If you truly feel they aren't helping you, then arguing back and giving condescending remarks does not accomplish anything but create unwelcome hostility in this community. Even if you feel they're doing the same to you. You're better off...
People who give others s&*! for trying to find a fix for a side effect of doing the very things that every martial vs caster thread recommends to fix that problem are people the community is probably better off without.
Baval |
lol not having an armor or natural armor is not the same as an attack being a touch attack
Every post you make just shows less and less knowledge of the system.
PS: Havent lost my temper at all, though I will admit you annoy me, but thats because I dont like willful ignorance and you are brimming with it.