Homebrew better human racial traits


Homebrew and House Rules

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Oh man, this topic is a bit of a train wreck. There's just so much to address and I don't have enough time.

I will point to my previous post about considering making some of these things system-wide updates (especially weapon proficiency system changes) instead of racial perks, that will be a huge change, and give you the way I see this topic:

This is the race version of saying "How to make the Wizard better?"

To anyone who understands the game balance, this question is kinda crazy because Wizards are widely considered to be the best in the game. You're going to have to make one hell of an argument to convince people otherwise, and focusing on "well Siege Wizard is pretty bad" just isn't that compelling.

I know it's not a perfect analogy. But that's basically what people are seeing in this topic.


PK the Dragon wrote:

Oh man, this topic is a bit of a train wreck. There's just so much to address and I don't have enough time.

I will point to my previous post about considering making some of these things system-wide updates (especially weapon proficiency system changes) instead of racial perks, that will be a huge change, and give you the way I see this topic:

This is the race version of saying "How to make the Wizard better?"

To anyone who understands the game balance, this question is kinda crazy because Wizards are widely considered to be the best in the game. You're going to have to make one hell of an argument to convince people otherwise, and focusing on "well Siege Wizard is pretty bad" just isn't that compelling.

I know it's not a perfect analogy. But that's basically what people are seeing in this topic.

This surprises me as I always thought you'd presume this was making fighter too damn good. Now he can easily get proficiency in Bolas to make ranged tip attempts that cannot lead to him being tripped. Yet Wizard can do that with a scroll of Thunderstomp. Or do something like Lasso a flying mage and drag them down to earth.

And what exactly do you mean by make wizards better?

It is technically making them better to buff them in an area they are weak (weapons proficiencies) but to me it's crazy to act like that's the same sort of "make better" as making them stronger where they are STRONGEST! That's where Wizards are the problem, when they cast Disintegrate on the end level boss, THAT is a g%+ d~&n problem. If they shoot at them with a repeating crossbow, well hell, that's actually kinda cool AND it's not going to be over in the first initiative round.

"You're going to have to make one hell of an argument to convince people otherwise"

I don't have to.

YOU have to convince ME they'd be more powerful in their ability to cast high level spells because of ANY weapon proficiency. In fact, if they can be lured into using weapons more, that's only going to weaken them in their action economy.

I want YOU to see it from MY point of view now: you need to learn the damn difference between balance and vindictiveness.

Balance would be to limit where Wizards are too powerful. Vindictiveness would be to make it tedious for those who play Wizards in some ridiculous attempt to bully them into not playing Wizard any more but still nothing stops them doing the OP things you don't want them to do. I have my own time and place to balance for wizards and it is NOT with the broad brush of hurting everyone else in the same way.

I'm getting rather fed up of people's replies consisting of "I can't beleive you're doing this, you can't possibly be thinking of this" just bloody well spit it out and say what the problem is and the I will :

(a) Fix the problem,
(b) not fix it as i don't think it's a problem and I'll tell you why.

What I cannot do anything about is endless vague gainsaying.

So please. Say SPECIFICALLY WHY THIS IS A PROBLEM FOR CASTERS LIKE WIZARDS TO HAVE THIS.

Please, don't say it's obvious, I obviously don't think it's too good otherwise I wouldn't have done it now then would I? So just give actual reason ans specifics, scenarios, whatever. Not vague platitudes.

And I do not appreciate people coming in here and telling fairy tails that I have not changed anything as per their advice when I have actually changed EVERYTHING as their advice.


Because weapon proficiencies are one of the few things that have value to other classes, and weapons are the one form of offense that you can use over and over with no cost.

Giving them away is basically yet another nail in the coffin of classes that are weapon users. By making it nigh cost-free, you remove yet one more reason to play a non-caster...and you're not talking of giving them anything in exchange (free 1st level spell use and 1/2 scaling caster level, howzabout?).

It's about class balance, and you're tilting it towards casters when it's already skewed that way.


You do know that Humans are almost always considered to be one of the best races for every build? Right? Not that they're "okay" at about everything, they're considered to be among the best. And that's not because of Dual Talented. They're popular because they're about the best pick one can make. The poor dwarf has almost nothing in comparison.

Also, you really shouldn't messure a race's power by that RP-system. It's garbage. For example: Skill Focus and a +2 to one skill (any skill, even Profession) are considered to be of the same value. A feat is equal to +2/+4 in two skills or +3/+6 in one skill, not +2 in one.


Technically the +2 is better, because it stacks with the feat, but that's just picking nits.


No, the +2 is not better. Because stacking it with a feat also costs an extra feat. Not many skills are worth that, especially when it's only +2 and not what a feat is usually worth. Also, with Skill Focus, you can chose what skill you want your +3/+6 bonus in.


Das Bier wrote:

Because weapon proficiencies are one of the few things that have value to other classes, and weapons are the one form of offense that you can use over and over with no cost.

Giving them away is basically yet another nail in the coffin of classes that are weapon users. By making it nigh cost-free, you remove yet one more reason to play a non-caster...and you're not talking of giving them anything in exchange (free 1st level spell use and 1/2 scaling caster level, howzabout?).

It's about class balance, and you're tilting it towards casters when it's already skewed that way.

On of the FEW THINGS!?!? What about... ALL the other things that classes allow?!?

"weapons are the one form of offense that you can use over and over with no cost."

Yeah, that's the idea. So they can stay in the fight when they don't have any of the right spells.

"Giving them away is basically yet another nail in the coffin of classes that are weapon users."

Right now you are nailing the coffin shut with no body in side. Hell, no one is even dead.

But enough with the forced analogies, IT IS UTTER NONSENSE that a wizard with a repeating crossbow is better than a fighter or monk or similar with their weapons focus. Utter nonsense. They don't have the feats nor class abilities to make such a weapons focus work. This "coffin nail" thinking is just a re-branded slippery slope fallacy. You think I can't give a human fighter an exotic weapon proficiency because he's a human because a wizard will get a weapon that's still not as good as a decent Composite Longbow which they couldn't have the point buy balance to even use effectively.

"you're not talking of giving them anything in exchange (free 1st level spell use and 1/2 scaling caster level, howzabout?)"

Sooo nothing... apart from something.

And caster level is equal to character level, this 1/2 scaling caster has come out of nowhere!

I challenge you: specify exactly how any exotic weapon proficiency can in any way impede a game?

I can tell you how a LACK of it can impede a game: Wizard runs out of spells and the session has to grind to a halt for a rest and re-prepare. He had been blowing spell slots on shooting what he could have taken care of with a Repeating Crossbow. Using a regular crossbow the alternate rounds of loading and lack of mobility was too much of a detriment to the game.

And it's not just Wizards, they shouldn't have a monopoly on things like ranged trip and that can be solved with Bolas.


I'm 100% convinced you're trolling and have reported you as such.


Rub-Eta wrote:

You do know that Humans are almost always considered to be one of the best races for every build? Right? Not that they're "okay" at about everything, they're considered to be among the best. And that's not because of Dual Talented. They're popular because they're about the best pick one can make. The poor dwarf has almost nothing in comparison.

Also, you really shouldn't messure a race's power by that RP-system. It's garbage. For example: Skill Focus and a +2 to one skill (any skill, even Profession) are considered to be of the same value. A feat is equal to +2/+4 in two skills or +3/+6 in one skill, not +2 in one.

Weasel Words.

"They're popular because they're about the best pick one can make."

That's not a reason, that's stating the obvious.

Also, you shouldn't comment on a thread lecturing people to make changes you'd know they had already made if you had read even half of the thread.

You might have read what I had to say about dwarf's racial abilities that amazingly, wasn't a load of scoffing and weasel words, it was things like recognising how powerful an ability like darkvision is and bonus to CMD against trip! Also mundane weapons enhancement which are cheap yet main downside doesn't affect dwarf.

PS: extremely low value feats don't prove some absolute metric on pricing every single aspect of pathfinder. Some feats are terrible, that doesn't prove the minor thing that worthless feat offers is therefore equivalent to a bonus feat. Using your own logic against you applied to Dwarf or Elf, they have the equivalent of far more than one bonus feat!


I'm convinced Double just doesn't think through his posts.

Cleric. EWP Falcata. Divine Power. Divine Favor. Divine Might.

As good as a fighter offensively, no need for a fighter.

Wizard: EWP Falcata. Or comp longbow.
Giant Form. GMW. Heroism/Greater Heroism. Go to town.

magus. EWP falacata, buff the blade, go to town.
Bard, ditto with bardsong and spells. Just take the best weapon you can and go.

in short, it doesn't matter what the casters have when out of spells. When they have no spells, combat is done. Giving them a weapon isn't going to change that...the party better run or there is going to be a problem.

What it IS going to change is the need for fighters when spells are UP. Because now they need melees even LESS. They have the best weapons, can buff themselves up to fighterish levels and do the melee job if they need to, or the caster job if they have to.

When they are out of spells, they retreat as normal, because, you know, spells gone!, but now they have even better weapons on the retreat.

That's the problem you aren't seeing, Double.

In summary, you're giving away a combat buff, and not solving at all the problem you're trying to. You're just pounding a hole in the coffin of melees, and encouraging them even more to be casters.


Gulthor wrote:
I'm 100% convinced you're trolling and have reported you as such.

Trolling isn't making a thread about buffing humans and doing as the thread title suggests. Trolling isn't making the vast majority of changes demanded but refusing to roll everything back to stock human so that I didn't actually do as the title suggests.

What do you even think trolling is?

I have had an endless stream of inflammatory and provocative remarks thrown at me for refusing to undo every single proposed buff for humans, but I am the troll for not going against the entire purpose of this thread and not having ANY changes to human racial traits at all!


Das Bier wrote:

I'm convinced Double just doesn't think through his posts.

Cleric. EWP Falcata. Divine Power. Divine Favor. Divine Might.

As good as a fighter offensively, no need for a fighter.

Where is the YOUR thought here? HE DOESN'T EVEN HAVE REACH! He doesn't have half the feats and he's counting on a spell he can't even get till level 7! This is NOT a fighter substitute, he can't even cover the base dumb damage. You seem to be labouring under the ignorance that if Falcata is that game changing that Cleric could pick it... yet fighter could not. Yet Cleric is still sooo far ahead for no discernible reason.

Because YOU did not think through YOUR post.

"Wizard: EWP Falcata. Or comp longbow.
Giant Form. GMW. Heroism/Greater Heroism. Go to town."

Giant Form THE LEVEL 7 SPELL! And one that hurts dexterity and does NOT naturally increase the strength limits of Composite Longbow. By level 7 Wizard has Finger of Death! And Giant Form doesn't fix Wizard's atrocious BAB. Heroism and Greater Magic Weapon can be cast on allies, might be a good idea to do that as then you can stay invisible.

"in short, it doesn't matter what the casters have when out of spells. When they have no spells, combat is done. "

How about instead of that sucky scenario, i solve that problem.

"Giving them a weapon isn't going to change that"

Yes it is, in your own words: " weapons are the one form of offense that you can use over and over with no cost"

Another example of how Das Bier "just doesn't think through his posts"

"They have the best weapons, can buff themselves up to fighterish levels and do the melee job if they need to"

NO they can't. Not till insanely high levels and starting from behind with a hodge podge solution. Spells like Transformation already grant them martial weapons proficiency and are they really going to sit on a falcata proficiency they cannot use jsut for in ineffectual faux-fighter strategy MORE THAN HALF WAY THROUGH THE GAME?!?!?!?

"That's the problem you aren't seeing, Double."

The "problem" as I see it is your insulting arrogance on precisely how everyone should GM every game of pathfinder, at the whim of the enjoyment of casters running out of spells. It is a problem you design, create, and reinforce.

"In summary, you're giving away a combat buff, and not solving at all the problem you're trying to."

What you see and what you say and what you prove are all very different things.

"You're just pounding a hole in the coffin of melees, and encouraging them even more to be casters."

Then why is it that everything you've said to support that makes no damn sense? You are going on about TERRIBLE builds that depend on ultra high level spells, WHO CARES ABOUT A FALCATA WHEN THEY ARE IN GIANT FORM! The problem with Giant Form is that they are giant, all the problems with the spell, the Falcata nor any EWP doesn't change the disparity in the situation.

You are SO BLATANTLY putting the cart before the horse, moving things around into an unnatural order, remember when they are starting at level 1 they get ONE AND ONLY ONE extra weapon proficiency. That's where a repeating crossbow is the choice, they can't go into Giant Form and use a Falcata! And it's almost as much to extend their spell use rather than "use up all spells THEN repeating crossbow" they don't have to blow low level attack spells when a bolt may do just as well to finish them off.


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See, Double, go back and look at your post.

You screamed at me in all caps. Repeatedly.
You requoted back at me in sarcastic insults.
You use exclamation marks and more ALL CAPS all over the place. Screaming, screaming, screaming.
You keep protesting it isn't you, when every one else is saying it IS you. As if everyone else in the room is wrong about how you appear to us.
You are throwing insults and accusations at me, repeatedly, showing great frustration that I/we simply don't give in to your arguments.

So, Yeah, I flagged you, too. You may not believe you are trolling, but if you look at your post, you pretty much are. I suggest you tone things way down and consider the other viewpoint in the future, not be infuriated that everyone doesn't agree with you and you might be wrong.
==============================

Oh, and yes, Improved Invisibility for a melee mage! Thank you for reminding me. You keep talking about casting buffs on others, and sure, he can do that...and he can cast the spells on himself. He has the choice, don't need no non-casters around.

Sure, the better combat spells are higher level. But Gravity Bow/Lead Blades, Haste, heroism, Enlarge and the like aren't. Mirror Image is often a better damage soak then AC, especially combined with blink. Imp Invis makes him near untouchable. He doesn't have to be super awesome at the melee role. GMW means he has a better magic weapon then the melees do, if he cares to upgrade it. He can wear an unhindered buckler for shield AC. He'll have a better movement capability with fly/overland fly and the like. He can alternate between ranged and melee combat without having to pull a new weapon out.

And you know Bows have an enhancement that maps to the strength of the user, come on. That isn't even an argument.

There's been plenty of builds out there that showcase what a melee mage can do...or a magus or bard, which is basically the same thing.

And sure, for the sweet levels of 2-6 or so, a straight melee will rock. And then the casters get their better spells and non-caster melees become less and less important, especially if you give their best weapons away willy-nilly. At least forcing the spending of feats or multiclassing gives the process a higher cost and keeps them in the game longer, but now you want to get rid of even that.

You may not know this, but what you are proposing was actually in the original play tests for PF, where humans could gain free proficiency in one weapon. What happened? All the wizards were running around with greatswords or comp bows, because they could. It didn't help out martials at all, and it won't with your fix. It just gives casters a free martial weapon they can leverage into more melee roles without having to spend resources of their own.

Oh, and the best thing about Transformation is it gives you stat buffs, AC buff and most especially, A BAB buff. You already have a martial/exotic weapon prof, why would you care about that?

The crux of your argument that wizards need to contribute when out of spells is simply irrelevant. If your casters are out of spells, the party is done. Otherwise, it's simply a TPK waiting to happen. Nobody in their right mind wants a spell-less wizard walking into combat, having a better weapon then won't help at all.

it doesn't do what you want it to do, and that's plain truth. It has no effect when out of spells, and just cuts further into melee roles when you do have spells.

It's not balanced and you shouldn't do it.


Das Bier wrote:
You are throwing insults and accusations at me

The exact same ones you threw at me! I put them in quotation marks so you knew you were being told what you were happy to tell others.

Hypocrite.

If I am trolling for doing what you are doing then why is it okay for you to do it?

"Sure, the better combat spells are higher level. But Gravity Bow/Lead Blades, Haste"

Haste?? Why would they cans haste ONLY on them self when it targets one creature per level? And how is a Wizard especially getting Lead Blades? You know who can get gravity bow or lead blades? The human fighter by spell like ability! Enlarge Person is far quicker and more efficient to deploy as a potion which I drop. What you are guilty of is the fallacy of special pleading, you are concocting scenarios where only the Wizard is getting combat buffs yet even a large wizard isn't as good as a medium fighter for combat.

"Imp Invis makes him near untouchable"

Again, a spell he can't get till 7th level and lasts only a few rounds, he doesn't have sneak attack, he STILL has terrible BAB, his inability to wear armour and cast means he has to pump up dex at the cost of strength to even make it to level 7 so it doesn't matter if he takes off armour now. He still isn't as good as a martial character, and not simply because he's proficient in a Falcata! You aren't even complaining about my rules any more, you're complaining about Paizo gives balls powerful spells at higher levels. I've already had Elven Wizards running around with Longswords and Composite Longbows, as Elves are naturally proficient in such weapons.

You are blatantly special pleading, you can't effectively play a melee focused Wizard up to level 7.

"GMW means he has a better magic weapon then the melees do"

No it doesn't as GMW grants a temporary ENHANCEMENT BONUS

Weapons upgrades grant an ENHANCE BONUS

Enhancement bonuses DO NOT STACK.

I am putting this in block capitals for the same reason I put others in block capitals, not to shout, not to hurt your ears, not to scare you but to MAKE SURE YOU ACTUALLY READ IT. This is the distinction I know you know between block capitals and actual screaming, you are pretending to be hurt when you are not.

"He can alternate between ranged and melee combat without having to pull a new weapon out."

Switching hitting with thrown weapons is obviously very efficient in action economy even without feats, BAB of +1 or higher means you can move and draw a weapon as a free action. It's a free action to take a hand off a two handed weapon to use it to do something (like draw a thrown weapon and throw it) and free action to return to holding it.

"There's been plenty of builds out there that showcase what a melee mage can do"

None of which apparently work from level 1.

If they are remotely like what you have proposed they are built on insincere thinking and special pleading.

They only work for about 60 seconds or so from level 11 and above to make something which is martially strong for a caster but still incredibly weak for any actual 11th level combat-focused character. Remember, starting the game from level 1.

"And sure, for the sweet levels of 2-6 or so, a straight melee will rock."

1/3 or the game or, in most campaigns, 100% of the game.

" And then the casters get their better spells and non-caster melees become less and less important"

I have my own ways of dealing with this which DO NOT HAVE ANYTHING TO DO WITH THE RACIAL TRAITS YOU ARE COMPLAINING ABOUT.

Whether they get such proficiencies or not, you cannot pretend it substantially changes the outcome.

"at least forcing the spending of feats or multiclassing gives the process a higher cost and keeps them in the game longer, but now you want to get rid of even that."

Feats taxes do NOT stop any wizard from getting powerful high level spells. Multiclassing is also irrelevant to this matter. That is the problem whether it's a human Wizard with a Falcata or an Elf Wizard with a Longsword. You are blatantly drawing on an IRRELEVANT concern of th way the game actually is to object to homebrew.

"What happened? All the wizards were running around with greatswords or comp bows, because they could."

I don't believe such an idiotic scenario is as prevalent as you claim.

And Elf Wizard has proficiency in Composite Longbow and Longsword, not familiarity, full proficiency. Effortless Lace with a Large Longsword effectively replicates a Greatsword. Boom. I'm not the problem, the rules as they currently exist are yet we don't actually see that DO WE?

" It didn't help out martials at all, and it won't with your fix."

It does help martials, because you refuse to consider what useful weapons a martial character might choose. Why do you repeat such superficial nonsense, a Wizard isn't as good as a fighter simply for having a martial weapon, that's insultingly superficial! What about the BAB, the Armour, what about the combat feats?

"Oh, and the best thing about Transformation is it gives you stat buffs, AC buff and most especially, A BAB buff."

But it's not till LEVEL 11 and then for only 1 round per level! And By then Fighter has oodles of feats, which by the way, I have plans of giving martial focused characters even more feats and flexibility in feats. And transformation loses class-based casting abilities! This is a GIMMICK. You cannot use this for the crawl through the dungeon, if you use this on the final climactic battle then you're as good as handing them your spell component pouch to disable you from using your really useful spells to become a poorly built Fighter.

Who has EVER played a Wizard through TEN LEVELS selecting feats just for those to apply for 1 minute when he can cast Transformation? Even then he's going to have way WAY less feats.

"The crux of your argument that wizards need to contribute when out of spells is simply irrelevant."

That is NOT the crux of my argument and it isn't irrelevant because you say so. You keep saying it's simple without proving it, the only thing that is simple here is how simplistic your condescending denials are. Look at the actual g+& d$!n title of this thread THAT is the crux of my argument. Stop making things up about me to try to contrive yourself into being right.

"Nobody in their right mind wants a spell-less wizard walking into combat"

BUT YOU JUST PROPOSED TRANSFORMATION.

A spell which stops the wizard using any spells, even magic items like scrolls! And something which does NOT make them as good as an 11th level fighter.

"having a better weapon then won't help at all."

Yes, it will, for the UMPTEENTH TIME, maybe you will read it as you skim over this if I put it in block capitals THEY USE A WEAPON LIKE A REPEATING CROSSBOW BEFORE RESORTING TO SPELLS. NOT AFTER. They don't need to blow powerful blasting spells just to finish off stragglers in the skirmishes as crawling through a dungeon. Also when making their fighting retreat and they really have used all their spells, then it's still viable for the Wizard to do something useful.

"it doesn't do what you want it to do, and that's plain truth."

It's not the plain truth, I have shown it is fraudulent, fallacious if not down right deceptive. It does do exactly what I want it to do.

You are using my proposed racial buffs as a scapegoat for YOUR issues with high level spells. Which is an entirely separate matter that my homebrew racial traits don't substantially change. I mean you're ranting about proficiencies then cite Transformation, which grants martial weapon proficiency! And Elf Fighter has always been able to use that with Elven Curved Blade!

"It has no effect when out of spells"

This is an obvious lie. You aren't simply mistaken, I know you know this is wrong as you said the opposite earlier. It could only possibly be true by your bloody minded insistence that a Wizard would ONLY ever pick Falcata, and not something like a repeating crossbow. Which WOULD be useful in saving spells as I have repeatedly said. The fallacy of special pleading.

"It's not balanced and you shouldn't do it."

You've never been able to prove that.

All you've been able to prove is high levels spells are potentially really powerful (if you look at it in a really simplistic way) and those need to be reigned in. Not that a caster can never be proficient in something like a good sword or bow, which ALL ELVES HAVE!

By your own admission, for the first third of the game Martials Rock!

You have insulted me and talked down to me, and when I give you the exact same treatment back you report me.


Please calm down, everyone. If the discussion continue like this, the only thing we'll get is a mass post deletion.
Last time I looked at this thread, we were discussing a Homebrew on the human race. How did we get to... the ability of the wizard to melee ?

Alex Trebek's Stunt Double wrote:

"GMW means he has a better magic weapon then the melees do"

No it doesn't as GMW grants a temporary ENHANCEMENT BONUS
Weapons upgrades grant an ENHANCE BONUS
Enhancement bonuses DO NOT STACK.

You are right, but wrong. Yes, enhancement bonuses don't stacks; that also means that GMW can replace the base weapon enhancement bonus, while keeping the special properties. A 8th-level wizard can cast GMW on a +1 Fire weapon, and basically get a +2 Fire Weapon (the +2 from GMW overriding the +1 of the weapon); this allows him to effectively have the same weapon than a fighter for a lesser price, (or a better one for the same price).

That said, GMW is not a personal spell, and in a team, a mage can cast GMW on a fighter's weapon.

But I'm still not sure how it relates to human traits.


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Aralicia wrote:
Please calm down, everyone. If the discussion continue like this, the only thing we'll get is a mass post deletion.

I'm hoping they just lock the thread, myself.

The OP has already decided what he wants to do, assuming this is even real. There is zero point in continuing the discussion. Constructive feedback just gets shouted down by the OP, so if he's not trolling, then the thread is pointless. If he is trolling, the thread is pointless.

Just lock it.


Gulthor wrote:


I'm hoping they just lock the thread, myself.

The OP has already decided what he wants to do, assuming this is even real. There is zero point in continuing the discussion. Constructive feedback just gets shouted down by the OP, so if he's not trolling, then the thread is pointless. If he is trolling, the thread is pointless.

Just lock it.

Did you not read all the changes I have made to my proposed homebrew from people's feedback?

"Constructive feedback just gets shouted down by the OP"

That's obviously not true, on both the "constructive feedback" and the shouting down.

Constrictive feedback I do not shout down, and I can prove it:

Compare my original proposal to what my latest post on proposed homebrew is. If you engage with me on the thread topic then I will engage with you, as you cannot possibly refute: I have made changes due to people discussing this. The problem is those who do not stay on topic talking about how powerful high level spells some classes get are which I can fix and may fix but that is not the topic of discussion.

@Aralicia
"Yes, enhancement bonuses don't stacks; that also means that GMW can replace the base weapon enhancement bonus, while keeping the special properties. A 8th-level wizard can cast GMW on a +1 Fire weapon, and basically get a +2 Fire Weapon (the +2 from GMW overriding the +1 of the weapon); this allows him to effectively have the same weapon than a fighter for a lesser price, (or a better one for the same price)"

This is so amazingly off topic, you have to admit.

A 3rd level spell slot at CL8 cast on one creature who has a magical weapon with only a +1 enhancement bonus and special abilities may - in that circumstance - get a +1 damage and +1 to hit. Not only is that amazingly trivial and circumstantial for such a high level spell it is also so clearly totally removed from my proposed HUMAN TRAITS homebrew.

Though I cannot blame you, I took that bait. I know we can get suckered into this, like how I could bring up that fighters have weapons training from Level 5, but no, I won't. There is no bottom to this, there will never acknowledge they were wrong or making and overblown claim, just move to the next great thing that can be done with amazingly high level spells that look impressive on the outset.

This is hijacking a discussions of racial-traits with issues about class-traits, particularly with classes that have spellcasting. I cannot and will not try to solve issues with caster vs non-caster classes by the broad stroke of racial traits. It cannot be done, it should not be done. It is no good trying to evoke the strong feelings of unfairness over high level caster buffs. It's no where near a good enough reason to deny human martials access to cool exotic weapons because casters too can get exotic weapons... and that somehow will tip the balance.

To call me a troll for refusing to nerf a RACE's proposed weapons proficiencies just to spite a CLASS's abilities, is frankly desperate.

It's just so tenuous, the power of such casters is obviously as... CASTERS. All the buffs a caster tries to give himself are too little and too late and only brought up to relate to weapons proficiencies. Their power is in directly offensive spells, not a Falcata.


Why are we buffing humans? I feel like I'm in the twilight zone. Is the OP actually Rod Serling?

Almost all of their racial traits are awesome. They're, like, the best race in 90% of situations. The only thing they can only really get faulted for is not having easy access to Darkvision/Low-Light Vision but there's even a few player companions that allow that.

Quote:
Proficiency

But...humans can already get access to two weapons of their choice at creation. Admittedly, it'd be silly to give up a bonus feat for that but you can do it if you really, really want a certain weapon.


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Alex Trebek's Stunt Double wrote:


This surprises me as I always thought you'd presume this was making fighter too damn good. Now he can easily get proficiency in Bolas to make ranged tip attempts that cannot lead to him being tripped. Yet Wizard can do that with a scroll of Thunderstomp. Or do something like Lasso a flying mage and drag them down to earth.

And what exactly do you mean by make wizards better?

It is technically making them better to buff them in an area they are weak (weapons proficiencies) but to me it's crazy to act like that's the same sort of "make better" as making them stronger where they are STRONGEST! That's where Wizards are the problem, when they cast Disintegrate on the end level boss, THAT is a g$$ d~~n problem. If they shoot at them with a repeating crossbow, well hell, that's actually kinda cool AND it's not going to be over in the first initiative round.

"You're going to have to make one hell of an argument to convince people otherwise"

I don't have to.

YOU have to convince ME they'd be more powerful in their ability to cast high level spells because of ANY weapon proficiency. In fact, if they can be lured into using weapons more, that's only going to...

You completely missed my point, just for the record.

I was making an analogy. Humans are the Wizards of race. That is, they are the best type . If you made a topic suggesting Wizards are too weak and they need a buff, you'd be laughed at unless you made a strong, strong argument. The same applies here. I'm not saying your proposed changes to human buff Wizards, but that you are buffing the Wizards of Race- Humans.

The analogy isn't perfect, because Humans don't warp the game as completely as Wizards do, and you can argue that a couple races like Aasimar or Tiefling might be a bit stronger (not necessarily more versatile), but the effect on people reading the topic is basically the same.


PK the Dragon wrote:

You completely missed my point, just for the record.

I was making an analogy. Humans are the Wizards of race. That is, they are the best type . If you made a topic suggesting Wizards are too weak and they need a buff, you'd be laughed at unless you made a strong, strong argument. The same applies here. I'm not saying your proposed changes to human buff Wizards, but that you are buffing the Wizards of Race- Humans.

The analogy isn't perfect, because Humans don't warp the game as completely as Wizards do, and you can argue that a couple races like Aasimar or Tiefling might be a bit stronger (not necessarily more versatile), but the effect on people reading the topic is basically the same.

Not the most helpful analogy.

Humans more like fighters than wizard... obviously. Extra feat like fighter bonus feats, skills boost.

It might be an apt analogy in how people get emotional, angry, personally abusive and unreasonable, resorting to wishy washy thinking rather than deal with the facts. People seem unwilling to actually compare human's actual capability with other races and seem to be just stuck with the idea that because humans are chosen so often they must be objectively superior.

One thing I should add, I do give a few feats to ALL players for free so there just isn't as much demand for feats at level 1 which hugely de-values humans. That changes the dynamic so much and along with honouring the bonus feat for not using hero points there isn't a shortage of feat at level 1. Also it should be quite clear that while Elf and Tiefling may not have a flexible selection of Ability scores, they are damn near perfect for a Wizard, which is fine if you want to play a Wizard but what if you don't? Also really good weapons proficiencies for Elf.

So when the bonus feat isn't worth much and being a human basically gives you nothing except +2 to two ability scores, is that so unreasonable to propose a buff? Where they start with many feats for free (like Weapon Finesse) and every class is starting with two feats anyway, regardless of class choice, you see how human can seem rather underwhelming. I want people to play an elf because they want to role-play as an elf, not because they wanted to play a wizard with a comp-longbow and good stat-array and Elf fit that bill.


Johnnycat93 wrote:

Why are we buffing humans? I feel like I'm in the twilight zone. Is the OP actually Rod Serling?

Almost all of their racial traits are awesome. They're, like, the best race in 90% of situations. The only thing they can only really get faulted for is not having easy access to Darkvision/Low-Light Vision but there's even a few player companions that allow that.

Quote:
Proficiency
But...humans can already get access to two weapons of their choice at creation. Admittedly, it'd be silly to give up a bonus feat for that but you can do it if you really, really want a certain weapon.

Humans aren't so good in my campaign due to the buffs I give everyone:

-Everyone starts with two feats before even extra feats their class may give
-Many feats such as Weapons Finesse are given for free to all players
-Many feats are grouped together into one feat such as several combat manoeuvres

This leaves Human's main distinctive feature, the bonus feat, rather mediocre.

Also the Skilled feature was not appreciated as they either had such low int and skill points they were totally bottomed out or they were a wizard or rogue and had more skill points than they knew what to do with.

But even that was moot as players are choosing dual talent because they're something like a Monk and they NEED both High Dex and High wis yet there's no humanoid (non outsider) who has ability scores in both those stats. Yet when they went with that, humans were really boring it's "+2 twice anywhere and that's it, on the the class stuff!!"


Alex Trebek's Stunt Double wrote:
Johnnycat93 wrote:

Why are we buffing humans? I feel like I'm in the twilight zone. Is the OP actually Rod Serling?

Almost all of their racial traits are awesome. They're, like, the best race in 90% of situations. The only thing they can only really get faulted for is not having easy access to Darkvision/Low-Light Vision but there's even a few player companions that allow that.

Quote:
Proficiency
But...humans can already get access to two weapons of their choice at creation. Admittedly, it'd be silly to give up a bonus feat for that but you can do it if you really, really want a certain weapon.

Humans aren't so good in my campaign due to the buffs I give [u]everyone[/u]:

-Everyone starts with two feats before even extra feats their class may give
-Many feats such as Weapons Finesse are given for free to all players
-Many feats are grouped together into one feat such as several combat manoeuvres

This leaves Human's main distinctive feature, the bonus feat, rather mediocre.

Also the Skilled feature was not appreciated as they either had such low int and skill points they were totally bottomed out or they were a wizard or rogue and had more skill points than they knew what to do with.

But even that was moot as players are choosing dual talent because they're something like a Monk and they NEED both High Dex and High wis yet there's no humanoid (non outsider) who has ability scores in both those stats. Yet when they went with that, humans were really boring it's "+2 twice anywhere and that's it, on the the class stuff!!"

I don't like Dual Talent, but even so Humans have like a ton of amazing alternate racial traits that you can get that give up the bonus feat for something a lot better than a second +2.

Anyways, did you mention your houserules at any other point in this thread? I don't seem to recall. Seems like it'd be relevant to say that humans are underpowered only after you modified a bunch of stuff. Even so, I think given your outline I'd still spring for the extra bonus feat rather than swapping it out.

Skilled can also be traded for some pretty amazing stuff. Fey Thoughts and Heart of the Fields both spring to mind right away.

What are your actual proposed changes now? Are you still pushing the speed changes?


Johnnycat93 wrote:

I don't like Dual Talent, but even so Humans have like a ton of amazing alternate racial traits that you can get that give up the bonus feat for something a lot better than a second +2.

Anyways, did you mention your houserules at any other point in this thread? I don't seem to recall. Seems like it'd be relevant to say that humans are underpowered only after you modified a bunch of stuff. Even so,...

Well with all the insults, condescension and unreasoned hysteria that key aspect didn't naturally come up (as it would in a normal discussion) as I'm constantly defending from off-topic attacks. This is what happens when you are abusive and argumentative with OP, but I'd like to show my appreciation to you, Johnnycat93, for treating me with the modicum of respect that even a stranger deserves. This might have come up sooner if everyone hadn't jumped straight to angry incredulity and scoffing accusations.

My initial thought to include that detail was I didn't want this to just be about me, but for anyone playing pathfinder who for any reason thought Human might need a buff, this might be a good thing to just take and port in. But now I realise I'd have to give an example of why a buff might even be considered before one could even consider what the buff would be.

No speeds are being changed. They are only getting a 10ft climb speed without the +8 racial bonus. I suppose that is technically a speed change in the sense an accelerated climb is now 20ft rather than 15ft, quite a reasonable buff. This is the sort of thing that contributes to neutralising Casters that a lot of people have complained about. It's easier to use climb against the Pit spells (see sloping edge DC vs the flat walls DC) and its easier to climb to higher levels which de-values the spell fly, something which of course allows you to bypasses any ground obstacles.

I'm going to probably edit my original post to summarise all the changes and give the extra information it's now apparent is relevant.

Because I'm getting rather fed up with people reading the first post - being outraged at the very concept - and skipping over most of the discussion to insult and accuse me in a completely off topic way to say essentially the idea shouldn't even be discussed. Which is EXTREMELY off topic. If you don't want to discuss something in a discussion forum, don't click on the thread and post in it saying people shouldn't post in it.

Especially don't tell lies about me that I haven't made any changes to my proposition, when I have.


Knowing about your campaign's houserules make me understand better why you would want to change the humans. While the race is still powerful, in the context of your campaign, they lose a part of their uniqueness.

Concerning climb speed, per the climb rules :

Quote:
Climb Speed A creature with a climb speed has a +8 racial bonus on all Climb checks. The creature must make a Climb check to climb any wall or slope with a DC higher than 0, but it can always choose to take 10, even if rushed or threatened while climbing. If a creature with a climb speed chooses an accelerated climb (see above), it moves at double its climb speed (or at its land speed, whichever is slower) and makes a single Climb check at a –5 penalty. Such a creature retains its Dexterity bonus to Armor Class (if any) while climbing, and opponents get no special bonus to their attacks against it. It cannot, however, use the run action while climbing.

The racial +8 bonus and other advantages are inherent to the fact of possessing a climb speed. For this reason, having a climb speed (even a 10ft one) can have a notable impact. That said, a race can have a climb speed, as long as it's other advantages doesn't overshadow the other races.

That said, my question isn't a question of rules, but a question of setting : Is there anything in your world's lore that explain that humans are such stronger climbers than the other races ? If so, then you can give them a climb speed, but the other racial traits have then be light in order to not make humans too powerful.

Another possibility is : rather than giving a climb speed and all derived bonuses, you could give an feature that enhance climb while not being as powerfull as a climb speed.

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Since you just now revealed that all characters get a substantial buff that makes the bonus feat not as available, I have a suggestion for you.

What if humans have the ability to change their bonus feat at the start of each day? Or, instead of getting a bonus feat, they can change the extra bonus feat all characters receive?

That would make the bonus feat aspect of the race more appealing, fit the theme of humans being versatile, and give humans something unique.

Alex Trebek's Stunt Double wrote:
Well with all the insults, condescension and unreasoned hysteria that key aspect didn't naturally come up (as it would in a normal discussion) as I'm constantly defending from off-topic attacks.

People react by giving tons of reasons why buffing humans was a bad idea.

You call people's reactions "unreasoned hysteria."

All of the attacks against you were directed how "receptive" you are to criticism and suggestions. In game design, any content designed should meet some design goal. Criticizing the design goal itself is a valid point, because if the goal is flawed then content designed aiming to meet that goal will be flawed as well. Of course, you could have avoided all this "hysteria" if you explained from the beginning that you wanted to buff humans since all characters begin play with extra feats.

You shouldn't totally fault people for getting frustrated. They genuinely do want to help despite you responding mostly with dismissive remarks and strawman arguments. Heck, in another thread, I dropped a conversation with you because you derailed the discussion into an vehement rant about alchemists stealing items from the party.


Alex Trebek's Stunt Double wrote:


Well with all the insults, condescension and unreasoned hysteria that key aspect didn't naturally come up (as it would in a normal discussion) as I'm constantly defending from off-topic attacks. This is what happens when you are abusive and argumentative with OP, but I'd like to show my appreciation to you, Johnnycat93, for treating me with the modicum of respect that even a stranger deserves. This might have come up sooner if everyone hadn't jumped straight to angry incredulity and scoffing accusations.

My initial thought to include that detail was I didn't want this to just be about me, but for anyone playing pathfinder who for any reason thought Human might need a buff, this might be a good thing to just take and port in. But now I realise I'd have to give an example of why a buff might even be considered before one could even consider what the buff would be.

No speeds are being changed. They are only getting a 10ft climb speed without the +8 racial bonus. I suppose that is technically a speed change in the sense an accelerated climb is now 20ft rather than 15ft, quite a reasonable buff. This is the sort of thing that contributes to neutralising Casters that a lot of people have complained about. It's easier to use climb against the Pit spells (see sloping edge DC vs the flat walls DC) and its easier to climb to higher levels which de-values the spell fly, something which of course allows you to bypasses any ground obstacles.

I'm going to probably edit my original post to summarise all the changes and give the extra information it's now apparent is relevant.

Because I'm getting rather fed up with people reading the first post - being outraged at the very concept - and skipping over most of the discussion to insult and accuse me in a completely off topic way to say essentially the idea shouldn't even be discussed. Which is EXTREMELY off topic. If you don't want to discuss something in a discussion forum, don't click on the thread and post in it saying people shouldn't post in it.

Especially don't tell lies about me that I haven't made any changes to my proposition, when I have.

I mean, I don't really agree with the premise of this whole thread either.

I've got to say though that from where I'm standing at least that I'd rather have an extra feat than a 10 ft climb speed. I can't think of any situations outside of corner cases where a climb speed can be useful.

Also, the idea of seeing a human climb 10 ft in six seconds unassisted seems a little silly to me.

Have you considered giving humans traits that give them benefits when they work together?


Aralicia wrote:


The racial +8 bonus and other advantages are inherent to the fact of possessing a climb speed. For this reason, having a climb speed (even a 10ft one) can have a notable impact. That said, a race can have a climb speed, as long as it's other advantages doesn't overshadow the other races.

That said, my question isn't a question of rules, but a question of setting : Is there anything in your world's lore that explain that humans are such stronger climbers than the other races ? If so, then you can give them a climb speed, but the other racial traits have then be light in order to not make humans too powerful.

Another possibility is : rather than giving a climb speed and all derived bonuses, you could give an feature that enhance climb while not being as powerfull as a climb speed.

See Climb Unchained:

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/skills/climb

That's basically all they are getting, climb unchained at level 1 rather than level 10.

"Another possibility is : rather than giving a climb speed and all derived bonuses, you could give an feature that enhance climb while not being as powerfull as a climb speed."

Yup, that's exactly that. Paizo has already shown you can have an exception in granting a climb speed but NOT the +8 racial bonus.

"That said, my question isn't a question of rules, but a question of setting : Is there anything in your world's lore that explain that humans are such stronger climbers than the other races ?"

It's part of humans' Wanderlust. Their obstinate defiance, they are the race that would climb the highest mountain for the sake of climbing that mountain. They are the race that spreads to every continent, while they aren't good swimmers, no matter as they are determined boat builders but their determination leads to them crossing every pass, submitting every mountain range. Human civilisations that so often fight with each other build the tallest walls and still humans get over them. For example human soldiers are expected to reliably climb over high walls, even while being timed. If they can't do it once it isn't put down to bad luck, they simply cannot do it. i.e. they can take a 10, even when racing, and reliably succeed moderate climb checks.

Yet I cannot possibly go through each and every race and say why each one doesn't deserve a climbs speed. Maybe some do. Maybe some don't. But as a general rule, I'd say humans are closer to their ape ancestors (which have insanely good climb speed) than all other races. If there was a line of decendance, all other races came from humans and became even less like apes but more like that certain distinct quality of their race, Elves for example seemed to transcend to a higher existence, with lifespans incomprehensible to humans. Maybe some races are more cousins than offspring, perhaps Orcs. No one wants to play an Orc in my campaign so it's moot for now. But for example an Elf would see humans and Orcs as two sides of the same coin.


Cyrad wrote:

Since you just now revealed that all characters get a substantial buff that makes the bonus feat not as available, I have a suggestion for you.

What if humans have the ability to change their bonus feat at the start of each day? Or, instead of getting a bonus feat, they can change the extra bonus feat all characters receive?

That would make the bonus feat aspect of the race more appealing, fit the theme of humans being versatile, and give humans something unique.

People react by giving tons of reasons why buffing humans was a bad idea.

You call people's reactions "unreasoned hysteria."

All of the attacks against you were directed how "receptive" you are to criticism and suggestions. In game design, any content designed should meet some design goal. Criticizing the design goal itself is a valid point, because if the goal is flawed then content designed aiming to meet that goal will be flawed as well. Of course, you could have avoided all this "hysteria" if you explained from the beginning that you wanted to buff humans since all characters begin play with extra feats.

You shouldn't totally fault people for getting frustrated. They genuinely do want to help despite you responding mostly with dismissive remarks and strawman arguments. Heck, in another thread, I dropped a conversation with you because you derailed the discussion into an vehement rant about alchemists stealing items from the party.

I've actually already been toying with that idea for Fighter and a few other martial classes.

I think that would be too powerful not to mention too complicated with a class that can also prepare spells. For example, take a magical crafting feat on off days then go right back to just the sort of spell focus they need.

"People react by giving tons of reasons why buffing humans was a bad idea.

You call people's reactions "unreasoned hysteria.""

I appreciate those who did give those reasons (and i'm sure I even acknowledged that already), but I wasn't referring to those people, I was referring to those who were going off topic. There's no point in saying any more than that, pointing fingers will only set people off even more so lets leave it.


Alex Trebek's Stunt Double wrote:

See Climb Unchained:

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/skills/climb

That's basically all they are getting, climb unchained at level 1 rather than level 10.

Urgh. That's a thing I've comme to hate with some elements of Pathfinder : the amount of exceptions. The fact that no rule is safe makes it a hell to have comprehensive vision of even a part of if.

That said, since the main rule is "natural climb speed gives +8 racial bonus", you must explicitly indicate that your racial trait don't. (from what I've seen in the topic, I don't believe it was the case the last time you wrote the full racial block). If you only say humans get climb speed, they implicitly get the full package.

Alex Trebek's Stunt Double wrote:
It's part of humans' Wanderlust. [...]

I see. Given the Lore and the concept of Line of Descendance, maybe we should consider those Forebear Humans as a mechanically completely distinct race from the Classical Humans.

That way, rather that rework the Human chassis, we could simply create this new race from scratch.
From the bit of lore I have, I guess such a race of unstoppable explorers would probably have a Con and/or Wis bonus to represent his affinity to survive long journeys.

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Alex Trebek's Stunt Double wrote:
Yet I cannot possibly go through each and every race and say why each one doesn't deserve a climbs speed.

You can. But hey! If some humans in your world are built like gorillas where they can climb as easily as they can walk, then sure. :P


Johnnycat93 wrote:

I've got to say though that from where I'm standing at least that I'd rather have an extra feat than a 10 ft climb speed. I can't think of any situations outside of corner cases where a climb speed can be useful.

Also, the idea of seeing a human climb 10 ft in six seconds unassisted seems a little silly to me.

Well maybe it's just me but I've always put climbable obstacles and my players have naturally wanted to climb them. All the damn time this happens, if they are going down an alley

"Have you considered giving humans traits that give them benefits when they work together?"

Yes, then I remembered that counting on teamwork is like counting on good weather in Britain. It's really nice when it happens and you feel it's something really special but you can't make plans around the weather not being terrible. And sod's law, you hand out teamwork stuff and the players won't use it.

If I was going to do something for teamwork it wouldn't be racial, because it'll be screwed by by two humans who get along who aren't the same race.

And I've already been reflecting teamwork in the feats that players see NPCs have. NPCs regulalry use teamwork feats since unlike the PCs they work for "the man" they HAVE to pick certain feats as it's their job. Or their ass, in the case of conscripts. They are under the tutelage and orders of others and as such take teamwork feats which can be really powerful.

Is such a climb speed so silly? What's already established is every race in pathfinder with 30ft movement speed can climb 15ft of ships rigging in 6 seconds (two move actions at quarter base-speed climb) without any ranks by taking a ten and assuming they have neither a positive nor negative strength modifier. The only difference with humans is they could do that reliably and only a little bit higher, 20ft rather than 15ft.

An important note about reliability, on a ship (they almost always seem to be made by human) if the order came to climb the rigging and it was under time pressure so no taking tens, if they rolled for it then 25% of them would fail buy 5 or more so fall to their death. That shouldn't happen. 4 rounds of climbing in the rigging should not result in 70% of the humans collapsed in a pile of broken bones on the deck of the ship because that's the rate that 4 rounds of rolling a DC10 climb check would do.

And a mere +2 to climb won't substantially change that.


Cyrad wrote:
But hey! If some humans in your world are built like gorillas where they can climb as easily as they can walk, then sure.

Base speed = 30ft (run 120ft)

Climb speed = 10ft (no 'run')

You don't need to be remotely built like a gorilla to be less than one third as mobile while climbing as while running.

PS: if ANY race maxes out strength to 22 (before any magical enhancement bonus which enhance strength magically rather than by sheer muscle), then they could have to be built like a gorilla. That applies as much to humans as Half-elves and race that can put a +2 in Strength score and take inherent bonuses at Lv4 and Lv8. Or at least built like The Mountain who can deadlift 1000lbs which is roughly equivalent to what carrying capacity rules indicate can be lifted with Strength 22.


Aralicia wrote:


That said, since the main rule is "natural climb speed gives +8 racial bonus", you must explicitly indicate that your racial trait don't. (from what I've seen in the topic, I don't believe it was the case the last time you wrote the full racial block).

Ctrl + F search the page for "+8 racial" and you'll find I've mentioned it several times on this page alone, even highlighted it in bold.

"From the bit of lore I have, I guess such a race of unstoppable explorers would probably have a Con and/or Wis bonus to represent his affinity to survive long journeys."

But that's not the distinct aspect, there are obviously far hardier animals than humans who've done far worse, there's more to it than mere endurance. You can over analyses ANY race, like why do elven immunities exist? Why do Dwarves get such a huge bonus to dodge against Cyclops/giant/ogre/trolls yet not all large humanoids if they are't explicitly of the giant subtype.

One thing I really want to add is a little bit of distinct flavour to humans.

Because it's kinda boring even before the flush of feats that you could just forget how you were playing a human. Playing any other race it often meant something different for certain scenarios. Humans have at least one fairly unique feature.


Alex Trebek's Stunt Double wrote:

Weasel Words...

Also, you shouldn't comment on a thread lecturing people to make changes you'd know they had already made if you had read even half of the thread.

Yes, truly a great way to gain respons to your thread's topic. Tell people not to comment unless they read every single wall of text that is posted in it to see if you changes your mind about something. It's even better that you ridicule and antagonize everyone who's posting this "endless stream of inflammatory and provocative remarks".

You still seem to be under the assumption that humans needs a "buff" or become even more veratile and have more features to them, which makes me confused as to why you're telling me to not post when you clearly haven't changed your mind about that.

I will, however, not ask you to not comment. Please inform me if there's something else unclear.


Alex, here are some of my compiled thoughts on your posts.

==================

1. A lower point buy has a greater negative impact to martial classes than casters, since the casters in theory only needs one single high ability score, while martials needs several.

So by playing with a 15 point buy instead of 20, you are making it harder to play as a martial. This decision is also why Dual-Talented human is popular in your games. I suggest that you play with a higher point buy.

==================

2. Humans are one of the best, if not the best race

What makes the human so attractive is the bonus feat. It is not a simple +1 to hit from weapon focus, but the highest feat chain the character has.

So the bonus feat is a racial trait which simply becomes better and better the higher level your character is.

For archers, the choice between playing a human or another race could be the difference between having Manyshot or not at BAB 6.

==================

Alex Trebek's Stund Double wrote:

One thing I really want to add is a little bit of distinct flavour to humans.

3. If you want to add flavour then you should not give "choices" as racial traits. To grant "choices" just means that you add to the reasons why humans are bland, their lack of flavour.

Humans are very often made out to be the "blank canvas" of races. I can't think of any RPG I have played where the humans weren't the "standard" and had the potential to be great for any class/playstyle.

If you want to add flavour to humans, then you have to recognize what you think we as a species are especially good as, and implement that into your own homebrewed race.

So instead of giving away a class skill in whatever your players choose, you should say that "humans have always been good hunters, and perfected their use of tools for hunting. Therefore, survival is a class skill for all humans."

==================

4. All of your reason for your new racial traits ideas were not made with the human race in mind, but to fix problems you had with the game.

The main problem I have with your ideas is that you want to solve problems which affect all characters, by buffing one specific race.

Your reasoning for Skill Training, Spell Like Ability (Lesser), and Climb/Swim didn't even mention humans in your first post. All were focused on class mechanics and gameplay.

==================

5. When people are saying that you ignore their advice, they are not refering to your racial traits.

You have shown that you can change your opinion, as the swim/climb speed change implies.

What people want you to change your mind about, is that humans are in need of a buff.
First, you used the Race Points as an indicator of the inequality of races. When people disproved this, you still kept your opinion that humans needed a buff. We tried to explain the importance of the bonus feat and the flexible ability score bonus, but you dismissed our attempts to do so.


Rub-Eta wrote:
which makes me confused as to why you're telling me to not post when you clearly haven't changed your mind about that.

That's because the topic is about buffs for humans, not how no one should ever buff humans.

I asked you to stay on topic. That's not unreasonable. And that of course involves knowing what the topic has covered.

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Alex Trebek's Stunt Double wrote:
Cyrad wrote:
But hey! If some humans in your world are built like gorillas where they can climb as easily as they can walk, then sure.

Base speed = 30ft (run 120ft)

Climb speed = 10ft (no 'run')

You don't need to be remotely built like a gorilla to be less than one third as mobile while climbing as while running.

You're equating speed with ease. It's not the same. A climb speed implies the creature can climb anything without having to think about it or put any effort into it. They can do it while getting attacked, etc. That's the main benefit of having a climb speed -- being able to always take 10 on Climb checks.

You're also forgetting that you can double your climb speed by taking a -5 penalty on your Climb check, which isn't a big deal since you can always take 10 when you have a climb speed. So you can climb up to 80 feet a round effortlessly.


Wonderstell wrote:

Alex, here are some of my compiled thoughts on your posts.

==================

1. A lower point buy has a greater negative impact to martial classes than casters, since the casters in theory only needs one single high ability score, while martials needs several.

So by playing with a 15 point buy instead of 20, you are making it harder to play as a martial. This decision is also why Dual-Talented human is popular in your games. I suggest that you play with a higher point buy.

It also makes it harder to play as you just cannot get a single ability score as high with point buy 15.

It is because other classes have to be high everywhere that point buy gives diminishing returns (going from 15 to 17 costs more than from 10 to 14, for example going from point buy 15 fighter to Point buy 25, I can only increase Dex and Wis modifier each by +1, whereas my Wiz point buy going from 15 to 25 they STILL have a maxed out Int score in both point buy 15 and 25 except going to point buy 25 the WisMod goes up +2 as well as DexMod by +1.

Classes like Wizard inherently have advantage in point buy.

I account for this with things like allowing Lead Lined so +2 damage on two-handed weapons, Weapons Finesse as a bonus feat for everyone which favours dex focused builds.

Wonderstell wrote:

What makes the human so attractive is the bonus feat. It is not a simple +1 to hit from weapon focus, but the highest feat chain the character has.

So the bonus feat is a racial trait which simply becomes better and better the higher level your character is.

For archers, the choice between playing a human or another race could be the difference between having Manyshot or not at BAB 6.

I don't see it that way, a bonus feat is a smaller fraction of your feats the more feats you get. And of course, everyone starts with two feats anyway in my campaigns before any class or racial trait based feats.

And I'm combining martial feats, particularity to streamline feat-taxes.

Playing a combat feats focused build should be as rewarding and rich as a spell-focused class.

Wonderstell wrote:


3. If you want to add flavour then you should not give "choices" as racial traits. To grant "choices" just means that you add to the reasons why humans are bland, their lack of flavour.

Humans are very often made out to be the "blank canvas" of races. I can't think of any RPG I have played where the humans weren't the "standard" and had the potential to be great for any class/playstyle.

If you want to add flavour to humans, then you have to recognize what you think we as a species are especially good as, and implement that into your own homebrewed race.

So instead of giving away a class skill in whatever your players choose, you should say that "humans have always been good hunters, and perfected their use of tools for hunting. Therefore, survival is a class skill for all humans."

I can't tell if this is arguing for or against my modest climb buff. I want to keep most of the flexibility and also some uniqueness.

"So instead of giving away a class skill in whatever your players choose, you should say that "humans have always been good hunters, and perfected their use of tools for hunting. Therefore, survival is a class skill for all humans." "

That's just going to lead to "oh and orc aren't good hunters?"

Actually humans aren't always good hunters, some are terrible. What is remarkable is you see humans doing EVERYTHING because they can do ANYTHING they put their mind to. Humans are less stereotyped than the other races, all of which are going for a certain theme.

If anything, all the races other than humans are a hyper-realisation of a particular human stereotype or tendency, humans may be any way, like a Dwarf but never as Dwarf as a Dwarf.

"The main problem I have with your ideas is that you want to solve problems which affect all characters, by buffing one specific race."

Mostly because humans are most common in my games but except for my most recent game where they were all the only starting race for settings reasons it's never been all-humans. It's fine for the party dwarf to lag behind in climbing, the problem is when there's NO ONE who can reliably do simple climb checks. Also those who most need climb checks end up picking human as that's the only race viable for going dex focused and hence no big strength bonus.

I probably went overboard with swim (thanks to misleading Racial Points), and I have admitted that and completely removed any swim buff. That remains a problem for everyone.

"What people want you to change your mind about, is that humans are in need of a buff. "

That's not the topic.

The topic is not whether humans need a buff, it is where they to get a buff, what should it be. I have my reasons. Others will have their own.

"We tried to explain the importance of the bonus feat and the flexible ability score bonus, but you dismissed our attempts to do so."

Explanations eh?

I remember a lot of angry insistence and condescending insults but no actual explanations.

It took so long for anyone to even try to move beyond the usual bullying tactics and actually try to explain that it came up that my campaigns did not have anywhere near the same feat restrictions.


Cyrad wrote:

You're equating speed with ease. It's not the same. A climb speed implies the creature can climb anything without having to think about it or put any effort into it. They can do it while getting attacked, etc. That's the main benefit of having a climb speed -- being able to always take 10 on Climb checks.

You're also forgetting that you can double your climb speed by taking a -5 penalty on your Climb check, which isn't a big deal since you can always take 10 when you have a climb speed. So you can climb up to 80 feet a round effortlessly.

It actually the same effort, it's just there isn't such a HUGE variance in performance that d20 gives. No effort would mean they'd make the check even with a natural-1.

"So you can climb up to 80 feet a round effortlessly."

How?!?! 10ft per move action. Up to 20ft per move action with accelerated climb. Only two move actions per round. 20 + 20 is 40. How the hell did you possibly think you could end up with an 8 fold increase from that, did you square something? This means they can if cornered agaisnt a tree it would actually be remotely worth it to try to climb a tree to avoid a large creature and not remain within reach. Also it's a worthy investment to spend two move actions to reliably get on top of a roof if you're in an alley and want to try a flanking route.


Alex Trebek's Stunt Double wrote:
Actually humans aren't always good hunters, some are terrible. What is remarkable is you see humans doing EVERYTHING because they can do ANYTHING they put their mind to. Humans are less stereotyped than the other races, all of which are going for a certain theme.

"Always", isn't what's important. Humans are capable of adaptation, as should be expected from an animal as intelligent as we are. Our flexibility isn't what defines us, that is simply a bi-product from our mental prowess.

Humans are evolved for Persistance Hunting, which is a hunting technique in which you simply use your endurance to slowly whittle down your target's stamina.
And have you compared our constitution with other animals? A horse with a twisted ankle gets shot, while we literally walk it off. The truly defining trait of humans are their incredibly sturdy bodies.

Alex Trebek's Stunt Double wrote:
If anything, all the races other than humans are a hyper-realisation of a particular human stereotype or tendency, humans may be any way, like a Dwarf but never as Dwarf as a Dwarf.

Very true, the haughty elves and greedy dwarves is a common trope.

====================

Alex Trebek's Stunt Double wrote:
The topic is not whether humans need a buff, it is where they to get a buff, what should it be. I have my reasons. Others will have their own.

Alright, I will accept your reasons (whatever they may be) for not including any other race in this buff. I will now focus on the buff(s).

If I remember correctly, then the current racial traits are:

the extra Class skill (in whatever they choose),
the weapon proficiency feat,
the Spell Like Ability (lesser),
and the Climb speed 10 without the +8.

****

Flexible Class Skill and weapon proficiency:

I don't believe that adaptability defines humans, so I don't think these two traits would suit humans.

****

Spell Like Ability (lesser):

Humans aren't innately natural in their being, like fey creatures, so a spell like ability doesn't suit humans either.

****

Climb Speed 10 without the +8:

Sure, as descendants of primates, we humans got a good grip.

====================

Now, while the Climb Speed is an understandable racial trait, I don't think the other are "better" racial traits. Better racial traits would be something defining the humans, therefore I give you my opinion on how the human race should be. As the topic is "what" the traits should be.

Racial Ability Score Modifiers:

+2 Con, +2 Cha -2 Wis

Humans are known for their incredible persistance and social dependency. As pack animals, they are prone to birth great leaders and follow them without questioning their actions.

Stamina: Humans recieve Endurance as a bonus feat. If they gain Endurance from any other source, then they gain the Diehard feat instead.

Scar Tissue (Ex): Once per day, humans may gain Fast Healing 1 for a number of rounds equal to their Hit Dice + Constitution Modifier. They can use this ability one additional time per day at fifth level, and every fifth level thereafter. In addition, humans gain one additional hit point from every mundane source of healing (this ability not included).

Leaders and Followers: Humans gain +2 to Diplomacy and Handle animal skill checks, but a -1 penalty against compulsion effects.

Beaten, but never broken: Humans recieve a +1 bonus to all saves, and a +1 to Natural Armor.

Toolsmen: A human treats all tools as their masterworked counterparts, and gain a +1 to attack and damage with Improvised weapons (this does not negate the -4 penalty for attacking with improvised weapons).

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Alex Trebek's Stunt Double wrote:
Cyrad wrote:

You're equating speed with ease. It's not the same. A climb speed implies the creature can climb anything without having to think about it or put any effort into it. They can do it while getting attacked, etc. That's the main benefit of having a climb speed -- being able to always take 10 on Climb checks.

You're also forgetting that you can double your climb speed by taking a -5 penalty on your Climb check, which isn't a big deal since you can always take 10 when you have a climb speed. So you can climb up to 80 feet a round effortlessly.

It actually the same effort, it's just there isn't such a HUGE variance in performance that d20 gives. No effort would mean they'd make the check even with a natural-1.

Actually, with the free +8 for having a climb speed and 1 rank in Climb, you can succeed any check with a DC 10 on a natural 1, not that creatures with climb speeds ever need to worry about that since they can always take 10 even during combat. So yes, a character with any climb speed can effortlessly climb up anything less than a typical dungeon wall without having to make a roll. And that's assuming the character only has a 10 Strength and no other bonuses to Climb.


And 'I live on the plains and rivers with no trees or mountains and have a climb speed' doesn't sound right, either. We came down OFF the trees, because it was better for our species. We aren't evolved for climbing...we don't have the strength primates do anymore. We're evolved for tool use, our muscles have a lot finer control then those of apes (a chimp, for example, could never play a guitar well, no fine muscle control). Apes are a LOT stronger then humans are, however, all the rulebooks aside. There's not a weightlifter alive who could out-muscle an adult orangutan or chimpanzee.

Wonder, instead of Scar Tissue and fast healing, just have them convert the damage to subdual. It's not as magical as fast healing, but they'll still be able to 'walk it off'.

And the comparison with horses is bad. Horses have very small feet for their weight. Their problem is it is nigh impossible to heal a broken leg with that much weight on the leg. So if they break or sprain it, they die. Common problem with all large quadrupeds. I've heard it said that if an elephant lays down for 12 hours, it will never be able to stand again because of muscle atrophy.

Instead of Beaten, never broken giving +1 Nat Armor, have them heal 1 pt/day faster.


Cyrad wrote:
Actually, with the free +8 for having a climb speed and 1 rank in Climb, you can succeed any check with a DC 10 on a natural 1, not that creatures with climb speeds ever need to worry about that since they can always take 10 even during combat. So yes, a character with any climb speed can effortlessly climb up anything less than a typical dungeon wall without having to make a roll. And that's assuming the character only has a 10 Strength and no other bonuses to Climb.

They're not getting the +8 racial bonus. I've said this like 10 times now.


@Das Bier

Both very good suggestions which further emphasizes on the human's natural ability to overcome physical trauma.

And the facts about large quadrupeds were interesting. Funny how the saying "healty as a horse" exists, when they in comparison are very fragile beasts.

*Homebrew Better Human Racial Traits*:
Racial Ability Score Modifiers:

+2 Con, +2 Cha -2 Wis

Humans are known for their incredible persistance and social dependency. As pack animals, they are prone to birth great leaders and follow them without questioning their actions.

Stamina: Humans recieve Endurance as a bonus feat. If they gain Endurance from any other source, then they gain the Diehard feat instead.

Scar Tissue (Ex): Once per day, humans may gain Fast Healing 1 for a number of rounds convert lethal damage equal to their Hit Dice + Constitution Modifier to nonlethal damage. They can use this ability one additional time per day at fifth level, and every fifth level thereafter. In addition, humans gain one additional hit point from every mundane source of healing (this ability not included).

Leaders and Followers: Humans gain +2 to Diplomacy and Handle animal skill checks, but a -1 penalty against compulsion effects.

Beaten, but never broken: Humans recieve a +1 bonus to all saves, and a +1 to Natural Armor gain one additional hit point from all sources of mundane healing.

Toolsmen: A human treats all tools as their masterworked counterparts, and gain a +1 to attack and damage with Improvised weapons (this does not negate the -4 penalty for attacking with improvised weapons).

================

Does anyone have other suggestions for "better" human racial traits?

What truly defines the humans for you, and what would be a racial trait which better reflects this?

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Alex Trebek's Stunt Double wrote:
Cyrad wrote:
Actually, with the free +8 for having a climb speed and 1 rank in Climb, you can succeed any check with a DC 10 on a natural 1, not that creatures with climb speeds ever need to worry about that since they can always take 10 even during combat. So yes, a character with any climb speed can effortlessly climb up anything less than a typical dungeon wall without having to make a roll. And that's assuming the character only has a 10 Strength and no other bonuses to Climb.
They're not getting the +8 racial bonus. I've said this like 10 times now.

That makes even less sense as now you're screwing with the rules for how climb speeds work! It's a mechanical mess all to justify your idea of giving humans a climb speed.


R E V I S E D _ H O M E B R E W _ T R A I T S

PLEASE READ IF SKIMMING OVER THREAD

Click this spoiler to see what was in the original post no longer applies:
Flexible (2 RP)
Because it's the most straightforward option. +2 to any two stats and no -2 to worry about.

Language Quality: Standard (0 RP)
Perfectly fine for every purpose.

Skill Training (1 RP)
Because it's so annoying how some classes will neglect one or two skills that should be class skills for them yet aren't. Like Fighter not having Stealth or Monk not having Heal as a class skill.

Spell Like Ability, Lesser (1 RP)
So many times players take a single level dip just to get a spell or waste round after round trying to get one spell they want. Limit it to 1st level spell but does it need more limits on what spells are allowed? Melee Combatants going for Lead Blades is an obvious one, but isn't that par for the course?

Weapon Familiarity (1RP)
To reflect Humans' varied nature, and to help with player options, they can pick any two weapons to add to their list of weapon proficiencies. I see the need for things like exotic weapon proficiency but a feat is too much to spend to get such proficiency yet a trait is too little. I think this is a healthy balance to cater for everyone who looks over exotic weapons and wishes. Also good for classes who have abysmal weapons proficiency options.

Climb (2 RP) and Swim (2 RP)
Obstacles and water are usually too much, the inherent penalties are so severe players end up treating anything more than waist deep water like lava and any obstacle as insurmountable. Throwing these in allow for plenty of dynamism but nothing a GM cannot control for. It's ADVENTUROUS to try to climb along an average dungeon wall without an atrocious chance of failure, but if there's some walls GM doesn't want them to climb then they can say they are smooth.

++++++++++++++++++++ END OF SPOILER+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

N E W _ R U L E S:

ABILITY SCORE: +2 to any Physical Ability score, +2 to any Mental score and -2 to any score.

SIZE: Medium
TYPE: Humanoid (Human Subtype)
BASE SPEED: 30ft
LANGUAGES: Common, plus 7 local languages picked by GM.

DARING CLAMBER: Humans have a 10ft climb speed without the usual +8 Racial Bonus

JACK OF ALL TRADES: Humans add any one skill to their list of class skills.

WEAPON OF CHOICE: Humans may be proficient in one weapon of their choice as long as the weapon does not have the name of another playable race in its name (Such as Orc Skull Ram or Elven Curve Blade)

BONUS FEAT: Humans select one extra feat at 1st level.

Adaptation of ALTERNATE RACIAL TRAITS:

Adoptive Parentage: Humans are sometimes orphaned and adopted by other races. Choose one humanoid race without the human subtype. You start play with that race's languages and gain that race's weapon familiarity racial trait (if any). If the race does not have weapon familiarity, you gain either Skill Focus or Weapon Focus as a bonus feat that is appropriate for that race instead. This racial trait replaces JACK OF ALL TRADES and WEAPON OF CHOICE racial traits.

Awareness: Humans raised within monastic traditions or communities that encourage mindfulness seem to shrug off many dangers more easily than other humans. They gain a +1 racial bonus on all saving throws and concentration checks though at a cost in focus on practising other skills. This racial trait replaces the BONUS FEAT and JACK OF ALL TRADES racial traits.

Comprehensive Education: Humans raised with skilled teachers draw upon vast swathes of knowledge gained over centuries of civilization. They gain all Knowledge skills as class skills, and they gain a +1 racial bonus on skill checks for each Knowledge skill that they gain as a class skill from their class levels. However their academic life has left them with less opportunity in other skills and combat. This racial trait replaces JACK OF ALL TRADES and WEAPON OF CHOICE.

Dimdweller: Birthed into the darkness, they have dedicated themselves to using it as their ally. Whenever characters with this trait benefit from concealment or full concealment due to darkness or dim light, they gain a +2 racial bonus on Intimidate, Perception, and Stealth checks. They also have darkvision to a range of 60 feet though suffer from light sensitivity. This racial trait replaces the BONUS FEAT racial trait.

Eye for Talent: Humans have great intuition for hidden potential. They gain a +2 racial bonus on Sense Motive checks. In addition, when they acquire an animal companion, bonded mount, cohort, or familiar, that creature gains a +2 bonus to one ability score of the character's choice. This racial trait replaces the BONUS FEAT racial trait.

Focused Study: All humans are skillful, but some, rather than being generalists, tend to specialize in a handful of skills. At 1st, 8th, and 16th level, such humans gain Skill Focus in a skill of their choice as a bonus feat. This racial trait replaces the BONUS FEAT racial trait.

Heart of Magic: Some humans are able to dedicate their focus to tapping into their latent magical ability in themselves. As long as they have a any mental score of at least 11 they may select a 1st-level spell from any spell list that only targets themselves. This choice cannot be changed. Once per day they are able to cast this spell as a Spell Like Ability using their character level as their caster level and their Wisdom, Intelligence or Charisma score (whichever is highest) as the ability score modifier. They can only target themselves with this spell-like-ability and it cannot be a spell that is usually restricted to one particular race. If it is restricted to a particular religion they must be an adherent to that religion. This racial trait replaces the BONUS FEAT racial trait.

Heart of the Fields: Humans born in rural areas are used to hard labor. They gain a racial bonus equal to their character level to any one Craft or Profession skill, and once per day they may ignore an effect that would cause them to become fatigued or exhausted. This racial trait replaces the JACK OF ALL TRADES and WEAPON OF CHOICE racial traits.

Heart of the Mountains: Humans born in the mountains are skilled at negotiating heights and precipices. They gain a +2 racial bonus on Climb checks and on Acrobatics checks to move on narrow surfaces and uneven ground. Climb and Acrobatics are always class skills. Furthermore, they are considered acclimated to the effects of high altitude. This racial trait replaces the WEAPON OF CHOICE and JACK OF ALL TRADES racial traits.

Heart of the Sea: Humans born near the sea are always drawn to it. They gain a +4 racial bonus on Profession (sailor) and Swim checks, and these are always class skills for them. They can hold their breath twice as long as normal, and spellcasters gain a +2 racial bonus on concentration checks when attempting to cast spells underwater. This racial trait replaces the WEAPON OF CHOICE and JACK OF ALL TRADES racial traits.

Heart of the Slums: Humans who eke out a life in a city's teeming slums must be quick and clever. They gain a +2 racial bonus on Sleight of Hand and Stealth checks, which are always class skills and a +4 racial bonus on Survival checks in urban and underground settings. In addition, they may roll twice when saving against disease, taking the better roll. This racial trait replaces the WEAPON OF CHOICE and JACK OF ALL TRADES racial traits.

Heart of the Snows: Humans born in chilly climes treat cold climates as one category less severe. They gain a +2 racial bonus on saving throws against the effects of cold climates, on any check or saving throw to avoid slipping and falling, and to CMD against trip combat maneuvers. This bonus applies on Acrobatics and Climb checks made in slippery conditions. This racial trait replaces the JACK OF ALL TRADES racial trait.

Heart of the Streets: Humans from bustling cities are skilled with crowds. They gain a +1 racial bonus on Reflex saves and a +1 dodge bonus to Armor Class when adjacent to at least two other allies. Crowds do not count as difficult terrain for them. This racial trait replaces the BONUS FEAT racial trait.

Heart of the Sun: Humans born in tropical climates treat hot climates as one category less severe. They also gain a +2 racial bonus on saving throws against the effects of a hot climate, as well as against the poison and distraction ability of swarms and vermin. This racial trait replaces the BONUS FEAT racial trait.

Heart of the Plains: Humans raised in the wild learn the hard way that only the strong survive. They gain a racial bonus equal to half their character level on Survival checks and Fortitude Saves due to environmental conditions. They also gain a +5 racial bonus on Constitution checks to stabilize when dying and add half their character level to their Constitution score when determining the negative hit point total necessary to kill them. Ride is always a class skill for them. This racial trait replaces the DARING CLAMBER racial trait.

Heroic: Some humans are born heroes. In campaigns that use the optional hero point system, each time these humans gain a level, they gain 2 hero points instead of 1. If they take the Blood of Heroes feat, they gain 3 hero points each level instead of 2. This racial trait replaces the BONUS FEAT racial trait.

Industrious: Humans are known for their drive and work ethic. Humans with this racial trait gain a +2 racial bonus on concentration checks and checks with their choice of one Craft or Profession skill.

Innovative: Humans have come to shape the world because they are inveterate innovators. Humans with this racial trait gain a +2 racial bonus on Knowledge (arcana) and Spellcraft checks to independently research spells, create magic items they have never encountered before, and identify unique magical effects. They also gain a +3 racial bonus on Charisma-based skill checks to persuade others to adopt a new ideology or further the cause of discovery and progress. This racial trait replaces the JACK OF ALL TRADES racial trait.

Institutional Memory: Humans rely on their institutions to remember the distant past and to preserve their own memories for the distant future. They gain a +4 racial bonus on Knowledge checks to answer questions about any organizations, guilds, or religions to which they belong, and they can attempt such skill checks untrained. This racial trait replaces the JACK OF ALL TRADES racial trait.

Mixed Heritage: Often human civilization is defined by more than one characteristic. A human with this trait may select a second “Heart of the” racial trait. This replaces the BONUS FEAT racial trait.

Poison Minion: Drow sometimes augment their slaves and frontline warriors by making them toxic, causing their bodies to internally produce mawbane poison (see below). The resulting poisonous creature makes a potent weapon in the effort to discourage neighboring monsters. Any creature that hits such a character with a bite attack is immediately exposed to its poison. The save DC for this poison is equal to 10 + 1/2 the character's Hit Dice + the character's Constitution modifier. Mawbane Poison—ingested; save Fortitude as above; frequency 1/round for 4 rounds; effect 1d2 Constitution damage; cure 1 save. This replaces the WEAPON OF CHOICE racial trait.

Practiced Hunter: Members of some human cultures train from youth to find and follow the trails of vital game and at the same time hide the evidence of their own passage. These humans gain a +2 racial bonus on Stealth and Survival checks, and Stealth and Survival are always class skills for them. This replaces the JACK OF ALL TRADES racial trait.

Self-Made Fate: Some humans build nations that deny the importance of gods and divine magic, and those raised to avoid divine influence develop a knack for defying divine magic. They gain a +2 racial bonus on saving throws against divine spells and spell-like abilities, as well as the spells and spell-like abilities of aeons, psychopomps, and outsiders with an alignment subtype. This replaces the BONUS FEAT racial trait.

Shadowhunter: Characters with this trait deal 50% weapon damage to incorporeal creatures when using non-magical weapons (including natural and unarmed attacks), as if using magic weapons. They also gain a +2 bonus on saving throws to remove negative levels, and recover physical ability damage from attacks by undead creatures at a rate of 2 points per ability score per day (rather than the normal 1 point per ability score per day). Humans can take this trait in place of their bonus feat, also gaining Iron Will as a bonus feat.

Silver Tongued: Human are often adept at subtle manipulation and putting even sworn foes at ease. Humans with this trait gain a +2 bonus on Diplomacy and Bluff checks. In addition, when they use Diplomacy to shift a creature's attitude, they can shift up to three steps up rather than just two. This replaces the JACK OF ALL TRADES racial trait.

Social Ties: Some human societies run on complex webs of favors and loyalties that canny members can intuitively exploit with relative ease. These humans gain a +2 racial bonus on Diplomacy checks, and on any skill checks to recruit members and teams for an organization. They also add a +1 racial bonus to their Leadership scores (if they gain the Leadership feat). This replaces the JACK OF ALL TRADES racial trait.

Tribalistic: Many humans naturally form into cliques or tribes, and these humans work exceptionally well with those they view as fellow tribe members. Such humans gain a +2 racial bonus on attack rolls and skill checks to use the aid another action to aid humans of the same ethnicity. Humans with this racial trait must hail from an ethnicity that has its own language other than Common, and they only start with that language; if they have high Intelligence scores, they can select their bonus languages from among Common, Giant, Goblin, and Halfling. This racial trait alters starting and bonus languages.

Unstoppable Magic: Humans from civilizations built upon advanced magic are educated in a variety of ways to accomplish their magical goals. They gain a +2 racial bonus on caster level checks against spell resistance and for concentration checks. This replaces the BONUS FEAT racial trait.

Wayfarer: Humans maintain the largest trade networks and the farthest-reaching civilizations, putting them in contact with a huge number of cultures. Humans with this racial trait gain a +2 racial bonus on Survival checks to avoid becoming lost, Knowledge (geography) checks, and Knowledge (local) checks. Whenever these humans gain a rank in Linguistics, they learn two languages rather than one. This replaces the JACK OF ALL TRADES racial trait.


Cyrad wrote:
Alex Trebek's Stunt Double wrote:
Cyrad wrote:
Actually, with the free +8 for having a climb speed and 1 rank in Climb, you can succeed any check with a DC 10 on a natural 1, not that creatures with climb speeds ever need to worry about that since they can always take 10 even during combat. So yes, a character with any climb speed can effortlessly climb up anything less than a typical dungeon wall without having to make a roll. And that's assuming the character only has a 10 Strength and no other bonuses to Climb.
They're not getting the +8 racial bonus. I've said this like 10 times now.
That makes even less sense as now you're screwing with the rules for how climb speeds work! It's a mechanical mess all to justify your idea of giving humans a climb speed.

You almost missed the justification of how I am using the exact same rules as in Climb Unchained! Please, people presume you've read what I wrote so when you say such things it's going to give people a worse impression of this thread.

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Alex Trebek's Stunt Double wrote:
Cyrad wrote:
Alex Trebek's Stunt Double wrote:
Cyrad wrote:
Actually, with the free +8 for having a climb speed and 1 rank in Climb, you can succeed any check with a DC 10 on a natural 1, not that creatures with climb speeds ever need to worry about that since they can always take 10 even during combat. So yes, a character with any climb speed can effortlessly climb up anything less than a typical dungeon wall without having to make a roll. And that's assuming the character only has a 10 Strength and no other bonuses to Climb.
They're not getting the +8 racial bonus. I've said this like 10 times now.
That makes even less sense as now you're screwing with the rules for how climb speeds work! It's a mechanical mess all to justify your idea of giving humans a climb speed.
You almost missed the justification of how I am using the exact same rules as in Climb Unchained! Please, people presume you've read what I wrote so when you say such things it's going to give people a worse impression of this thread.

But this isn't a race designed with unchained rules.


I don't know, Alex. Why are you trying to nerf the human?

Jack of all Trades is obviously inferior to Skilled, so why would anyone ever want to take it? I mean, even if you get all skills as class skills, you won't have enough ranks to even keep them relevant if you're playing a fighter with 7 int.

And isn't the name kinda misleading? Shouldn't it be:

"Jack of one Trade"

since you only become better at one skill?

======================

And about the ability score modifier. Can you pick the penalty and bonus to apply to the same ability score? Or must they be different?

======================

Daring Climber is also a misleading name. It should be:

"Cautious Climber"

The ability to take 10 on climb checks regardless of situation will not make you more "daring". You should only try to climb obstacles you can make on atleast a 10, so this ability would result in humans only climbing things when they know they can do so without failing.


Wonderstell wrote:

And about the ability score modifier. Can you pick the penalty and bonus to apply to the same ability score? Or must they be different

Yes, so if you don't want the equivalent of Dual Talent you put the -2 in the same score. I imagine some players may want that where it's more important that nowhere gets a negative than wanting more than one score to have a +2. Notice I deleted Dual Talent from the Alternative traits options.

And yes, maybe overall Jack Of All Trades is a nerf in the long run, but in the long run even a Soldier can get lots of skill points. I can't think of a better name that's still catchy, the point is not that they only have the class skill selected by the class Skills granted by their class along with the extra class skill is a WIDER breadth of class skills. If you are skilled in more areas but aren't as flushed in skill points then you're a Jack Of All Trades.

I think you're right about Daring Clamber being a poorly representative name. Yet Cautious Climber doesn't seem to be right either. Maybe Confident Climber?

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