ekibus |
Hey all so just so I have a direction, I've been looking to make a reach caster and really I ended up deciding on a skald. So far my thought is to multiclass one level into bloodrager and I believe there is still the option to gain a valet familiar to take amplified rage. With that I would take skald's vigor to get about +8 str/con and 8 fast healing I plan to take power attack and deific obedience irori asap. Oh and squeeze in combat reflexes somewhere too. The skald guide is kinda old so I just wanted to know what people would give for advice.
Hmm |
Skalds are pretty versatile. My boyfriend has done both a bloodrager that dipped skald and a skald that dipped bloodrager for PFS. He's enjoyed both.
(And sorry that the guide hasn't been updated in some time. I really should include many of the newer options and archetypes, but haven't thought of it until now.)
All your mechanical choices are very strong choices, but I wanted to ask what environment you are intending them for? Do you know who the rest of your party will be, or is this for PFS? Have you thought about rage powers for your skald? Personality? History? You're building a warrior not just with rage, but with amplified rage, and you're worshipping Irori. It could be fun developing the fluff to justify this decision, but this is something you should think about.
It sounds like you want to primarily be a half-orc warrior scholar. One of the things that affects the effectiveness of skalds is how many of their party buy into the rage. In a home game, you can work with your party so that more of the group does so. In PFS, you might want to consider urban skald and bloodrager archetypes, which might make it more likely that others will opt-in and rage with you.
Does this help?
Hmm
Ectar |
I had a skald in PFS. The only people who would accept my raging song were animal companions.
I was in a party with a monk, a melee fighter, and a melee paladin,but nobody wanted to take the hit in AC for the buffs.
Your experience may vary, and I hope it does.
But, maybe consider spell warrior as a viable archetype. Urban skald could also work, but at that point, why not just reflavor a bard?
ekibus |
A bit, I forgot to mention and realized after I posted that I didn't mention the Pfs aspect. That is the gist of the character a half-orc warrior scholar...kinda seeing him as a repressed sort that when he lets loose is pretty scary. I really want to go with skald vigor and amplified...the hope that even if the party doesn't opt in that he could be pretty much make up for it.
I thought about the urban skald and if I go str that wouldnt hurt my vigor..not sure about the amplified rage. Heh sorry that is the story of the character...balance. (ie rage and tactics) So far for rage powers (only went to level 10) Celestial blood, superstition and witch hunter. I see celestial blood as aiming for perfection...superstition and witch hunter, hmm not sure, always like those...not sure where irori would come into that but from a half orc end I see it inherited from the orc side.
I would see this character taking deific obedience along with heroism and heightened awareness with those 3 things he would have about +8 to knowledge skills...since skill points look stretched I might need to be careful with skill points
Amplified rage is honestly iffy I really like it but kinda see the dip into bloodrager for the familiar to be kind of a cheap in. I might put it onto the back burner until i can afford the ring to pass to a ally. Any direction for archetypes...possibly which bloodline?
Thanks for checking in. I wasn't knocking the guide but I saw it was getting a tad old so I just wanted to be sure that there weren't any rules that changed or something else out there
BretI |
Spell Warrior is an excellent archetype to dip into and horrible to take to high levels. The Weapon Song in place of Raging Song to give weapons magical bonuses is great.
Trading away Spell Kenning? Bad deal. Trading it away for being able to counterspell? Horrible deal.
As a Skald you are on the bard spell progression. That means that you are not getting the higher level spells as quickly as a 'pure' caster like a wizard or a cleric. You can only counter the smaller spells that enemy spell casters throw. You have given up one of the most powerful abilities of the Skald to get an ineffective ability to counter spell casters.
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Urban Skald works with Amplified Rage. Note that Amplified Rage works because it increases the bonus you get. When doing the song you would have to choose to improve Strength or Constitution in order to get the benefit -- if you use your raging song to increase Dexterity you aren't going to get a bonus from Amplified Rage.
The other advantage of the Urban Skald is their song doesn't prevent use of skills. You can still attempt the knowledge skill checks to identify creatures, or spellcraft (if you have it) to know what spell is being cast.
Assuming that you are going mostly Skald, you may want to consider dipping two levels of Bloodrager in order to get the Uncanny Dodge. This would allow your Bloodrager levels to stack with your Skald levels for Improved Uncanny Dodge. It isn't a huge advantage, but something to look at.
Hope you have fun!
Grandlounge |
I had a skald in PFS. The only people who would accept my raging song were animal companions.
I was in a party with a monk, a melee fighter, and a melee paladin,but nobody wanted to take the hit in AC for the buffs.
Your experience may vary, and I hope it does.
But, maybe consider spell warrior as a viable archetype. Urban skald could also work, but at that point, why not just reflavor a bard?
You need to explain the defensive benefits to your group. -1 AC for increases to 2 saves and HP equal to level. This only becomes more favorable is you start giving rage power and stat boosts increase. I have cards benefits on one half penalties on the other.
Eventually, the list on the benefit side fills the card and drawbacks still say -1 AC.
At level 4:
-AC = -1 Feat
Level in HP = +1 Feat
+1 Fort = +1 Trait
+2 Will = +1 Feat
+1 Rage Power = +1 Feat
I take community minded so if they stop accepting the song they get their AC back but still keep the stats for 2 rounds.
Grandlounge |
I found that once I made cards that showed cost/benefit I have had no problems. Strictly as a defensive buff it's worth taking every time for every non-caster. At high levels, with DR, 2x level in hp and fast healing, everyone should take it. Also remind them that if they don't take it you can't help them re-roll saves or increase their attacks that miss.
I also like it as a passive ability that automatically effects people when they go unconscious. Either they wake up to drink a potion or they have better con so they are less likely to die. Once you have a linnorm curse and fast healing you make PC death much more difficult.
I'm sad people have had experiences playing a skald at seem really frustrating. My only advice is stick through the fist few level where AC is important. Once saves and HP become the most important defense you will be golden.
ekibus |
Yeah my thinking was the same.. first couple levels people might refuse but after a point I don't see why they wouldn't. I'm debating if the level in blood Rager is worth it... in low levels yeah but after a point is it? Also the familiar would be stuck at level one. Could always retain the level later on
BretI |
I don't think having a valet familiar allows you to always get Amplified Rage. The familiar doesn'tt have the Rage class feature nor is it presumably an orc, so it doesn't qualify for the Amplified Rage teamwork feat.
The first level of Bloodrager is so you can qualify for the Amplified Rage feat. Skald doesn't have a Rage class feature so you need to multiclass. Barbarian and Bloodrager are the most straightforward ways to get the class feature.
You can get a familiar dependent on your Bloodrager bloodline. Familiar Folio, pg. 16-17 details what can be done.
ekibus |
BretI think it comes down to Teammate(ex) "A valet is considered to have all the teamwork feats its master has."
Now would the familar it would be frozen at level 1 so kinda squishy. I assume if i get something small enough I could still keep it on my person and be considered adjacent to it?...I like the idea of a raging Mouse :)
Joliet Jake Blues |
Yeah. Bret and I are going to do PFS together with a pair of half-orcs with amplified rage. I do have a valet familiar, but that will be to trigger my OTHER teamwork feats.
1 level celestial urban bloodrager / averakan arbiter bard X.
"We're bringing the band back together!"
EDITED to ADD: My familiar will be a raging penguin puffin named, "The Penguin." Now if we could only give it a ruler...
Ectar |
For rage powers, don't forget that you can't take celestial blood without the lesser version.
Link
Well, my woes were alleviated a few weeks ago.
One quick TPK for the party of melee that refused buffs ended his career at level 3.
Pooling resources, we got one PC rezzed and without negative levels. That's my good deed for the month. ^_^
ekibus |
Yeah I mainly like the lesser celestial anyways...giving every weapon good align and +1D6 vs evil outsiders is pretty nice. The greater ability is amazing but i dont see it being attainable. Superstition will boost everyone's saves and witch hunter will make them hurt anything that does magic (which later levels is a typical thing)
So familiar is based off hit dice and not caster levels? Either way I really dont plan to have it active...just there for the amplified rage.
BretI |
Familiar hit points, BAB, saving throws, and skills are based off your own.
Hit Points = 1/2 your HP, so likely to be very good.
BAB = better of base creature or your own.
Base Saving Throw = better of base creature or your own, uses it's own attributes to modify.
It is the fun stuff like deliver touch spells, speak with master, etc that would be based off your Bloodrager level and would not advance.
As for Amplified Rage, the familiar may have the feat but they can't utilize it. You need to either have a special bypass (like seen with the Bardic Masterpiece Battle Song of the People's Revolt) otherwise they can't use it.
Since we are talking about a Skald, you could take that masterpiece eventually so that you could share the Amplified Rage. That is exactly what our pair of half-orcs plan to do. Without something like that though, the familiar doesn't get Amplified Rage.
ekibus |
@PhD Okkam..I dont have ultimate intrigue and no real urge to purchase atm. Besides after a certain point I plan to have him more skill and group oriented.
With valet he gets the feat despite prereqs...he just needs to be raging too. Adjacent is the trick...if he is in my square is that considered adjacent to me?
It is a very nasty combo especially with skald's vigor...his str boost will never go up (at least from 1-11) but at level 3 I would have 8 str/con and 8 fast healing...he will probably be in the front at that point. Might give up lesser celestial blood for increased dr..
The masterpiece is extremely nice didnt know about that one. Not exactly sure how it works though...does it cost 2 rounds of song per round to use? But to give the whole party w/in 30 ft +6 str/con is truly a gm's nightmare
Charon's Little Helper |
I had a skald in PFS. The only people who would accept my raging song were animal companions.
I was in a party with a monk, a melee fighter, and a melee paladin,but nobody wanted to take the hit in AC for the buffs.
Your experience may vary, and I hope it does.
But, maybe consider spell warrior as a viable archetype. Urban skald could also work, but at that point, why not just reflavor a bard?
Yeah - that's kinda weird that the fighter/paladin didn't accept it. The monk I could see if he's a Dex monk.
Now, Skalds are more group dependent than bards (which is why I don't think I'd roll one in PFS) but that's mostly the dex-to-damage crowd. Plus, they're not nearly as useful for archery as Inspire Courage is, especially at low levels before they grab an Adaptive bow.
ekibus |
I really wanted to like the bard but I kept feeling they are lacking something. With the skald I get med armor along with martial weapons...taking the level dip in bloodrager along with amplified I really feel he would be a good solo player...if he gets even one or two more people pumped up even better.
ekibus |
So played the first session but I ran into questions. First thought is what to pick at level 3. Skald vigor is my first choice but power attack or deific obedience foot+4 knowledge is nice to. I just started the level one as a bloodrager but was bored might change to skald at 1 then bloodrager. Stats are tight was leaning towards 16 str, 14 dex, 14 con, 12 int, 8 wish, and 14 cha... he is spread out
Malkin the Magician |
Debated on ditching the level of bloodrager. Not sure if it is
worth it later levels
Worth it, yes. Necessary no. That build is quite strong but the Skald is not a weak class. It does not need such a specific build to be good. It will also free you up to play a different race or something less combat focused. My Skald has done very well with are decently well rounded build. Here are some of my thoughts on the build and why I skipped multi-classing for this character
For out of combat stuff:
I took Deific Obedience, bought a bunch of Pathfinder Chronicles, picked up a few bardic master pieces, there is a Saga in the Magic Toolbox companion that allows you at add charisma to knowledge checks, and a needle you can put in your brain to allow you do use your highest knowledge skill for any other knowledge roll a few times a day. This take you from knowledge monkey to knowledge ape king!
In combat
I want to get to level 7 asap because it is when you get your action economy - move action song. You also get access to Haste, Flexible Fury, and Good Hope sooner. The last thing is you get to give out fast healing earlier. For me the biggest benefit is that as long as a party member is not out right killed they will stabilize with no action on their next turn.
I skipped this build for a Dual Talented human and don't regret it. I like the faster progression because this is a class with lots of small incremental improvements I don't like slowing that down.
If you want DPR
- Take Power Attack and Arcane Strike
Want more defense
- Extra Rage Power Superstition
Better buffer
- Discordant Voice, Greater Skald Song and Battle Song of the People's Revolt
BretI |
Greater Skald Song? What is that?
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Single classed Skald is quite strong. I believe he was multi-classing in order to qualify for the Amplified Rage teamwork feat. Skald doesn't have the Rage class feature, so you need to multiclass in order to pick it up.
ekibus |
I'm actually aiming for a scholar warrior type route. I plan to worship Irori... deific obedience would grant me +4 to all knowledge skills (Which i plan to sprinkle points here and there so that would be a huge boost)
I did see the battle song of the people's revolt... planned to give the whole party amplified bloodrage...forgot about the percussion or wind...not sure how i can grant that and still smack things around. I will have to add discordant voice into my arsenal.
Lot of things to debate on...half orc vs human and dip vs straight. The half orc does get me sacred tattoo with shaman's apprentice (with fate's favored) I'm rocking +2 to all saves along with endurance...not to mention darkvision... Human does give you +1 skill (which yes is a big deal to me) as well as a extra feat. The dip in bloodrager gives me a familiar, with valet I gain alertness (pfs rule to replace able assistant) along with the familar gaining any teamwork feat i have (ahem augment rage) I could reliably get +8 str and con by level 2...level 3 with skald's vigor I will have +8 fast healing..faster running speed helps..granted slower to get everything but he would be a decent front liner
Malkin the Magician |
I assume he meant greater skald vigor...sorry was typing for awhile
You are correct sir. For battle song of the people's revolt its more of a late game thing for Virtuoso Performance. The other use is when you get a group that may benefit more from Outflank or Precise Strike. Grab triple time masterpiece ASAP +10 move speed for 1h with a mithrial breast plate you will have 40ft most of the time no or pre-dip. Symphony of the Elysian Heart is mass freedom of movement for a round. Makes grapples trivial to deal with.
@ BretI. Thanks for the catch, Greater Skald's Vigor. There is a ton of posts around about the amplified rage build so I thought I would share the single class perspective.
BretI |
The dip in bloodrager gives me a familiar, with valet I gain alertness (pfs rule to replace able assistant) along with the familar gaining any teamwork feat i have (ahem augment rage) I could reliably get +8 str and con by level 2...level 3 with skald's vigor I will have +8 fast healing..faster running speed helps..granted slower to get everything but he would be a decent front liner
Amplified Rage does not increase the healing from Skald's Vigor.
Your song and your enthusiasm combine to invigorate you in battle.
Prerequisites: Raging song† class feature.
Benefit: While you maintain a raging song, you gain fast healing equal to the Strength bonus your song provides, starting in the round after you begin the song. If you stop maintaining your song, the fast healing ends, even if the effects of your song persist.
When adjacent to other raging allies, your rages become even more powerful.
Prerequisite: Half-orc or orc, rage class feature.
Benefit: Whenever you are raging and adjacent to a raging ally who also has this feat or anking the same opponent as a raging ally with this feat, your morale bonuses to Strength and Constitution increase by +4. This feat does not stack with itself (you only gain this bonus from one qualifying ally, regardless of how many are adjacent to you).
Note that it specifically says "gain fast healing equal to the Strength bonus your song provides", not the bonus you get when raging.
Amplified Rage is a teamwork feat that increases the bonus you get when raging. It does not modify the amount given by the song.
I believe you are also giving yourself double the fast healing you should be, although this is slightly less clear. Inspired Rage +1 should give Fast Healing 1 (the bonus from the strength), not Fast Healing 2 (the bonus to the strength).
Malkin the Magician |
2 people marked this as a favorite. |
This has been debated a bunch in other threads. There does not seem to be a clear answer, but on the last point most people seem to have come to the conclusion that you get a +2 to strength bonus thus fast healing 2 because the other number is your increase in strength modifier and it is not referenced in the skald's raging song or skald's vigor.
The debate about amplified rage was a major factor in my playing a straight skald because I don't like builds that cause debate a tables and slow games down.
Cavall |
I think it's just the skalds song boost. Which is still a strong number to have when combined with path of glory and lesser celestial. When our skald hit the greater Vigour feat it got so if I didnt focus fire I couldn't down anyone.
Of course most monsters aren't tactically that smart so the group usually does well.
Markov Spiked Chain |
I swapped out of Amplified Rage because of the potential for rules arguments too. But I haven't dropped the Bloodrager level because having a combat capable familiar is actually pretty solid for a Skald. Now (after Skald 9) I'm thinking about swapping to Eldritch Guardian 2 for an even better combat buddy (currently a Fire Mephit.)
Grandlounge |
Markov do you find you lose a lot of value from the bloodrager dip after level 8 when your stats bonuses are the same between the 2 classes?
You get move speed and the familiar which still seems good. But it is definitely losing value as you level. And it hurts your will and reflex save progression.
I don't really know how to call this in terms of value. That is from someone whose eldritch guardian is one of his favourite characters.
ekibus |
Hmm was this that contested? "you gain fast healing equal to the Strength bonus your song provides" is from the feat (nothing about str modifier...so assuming straight str)
So deep researching right now (aka picking every word) Inspired rage gets a tad murky "based on her own ability and level instead of those from the skald" which implies that even if I get the +4 str from raging due to being a bloodrager...it isn't really changing what the song is actually providing. BUT amplified rage states "your morale bonuses to Strength and Constitution increase by +4." It would appear that in terms of skald's vigor at level 3 would grant me fast healing 6. Granted this is getting very fine and it might be a hassle at the table.
With PFS and changing gms this might be a issue if there is no real official word... worse if there is a errata and it gets clipped. (been out for a awhile so doubtful but still)
For offense it would still be pretty solid...add in power attack and he would pretty much be done for offense...losing the fast healing 8 for 6 would be tolerable...2 would make me reconsider skald vigor until later levels Or maybe if I skipped bloodrager it would be the level 1 feat :P
Little nervous...I feel like I would be losing out of a lot of offense to go straight skald
BretI |
There is a lot of synergy between Skald and Bloodrager, with or without the bloodline familiar.
If you are going mostly Skald, the Bloodrager gets you access to some different spells such as Shield, Longarm, and Touch of the Sea. You only need a single level of Bloodrager to be able to automatically trigger a wand of these spells.
Since Bloodrager gives you a Rage class feature, you can select between the bonus from the Bloodrager and Skald song even with your own song. Could be interesting if you mix an Urban Skald with a normal Bloodrager or vice versa.
Both classes get Uncanny Dodge, so if you take two levels of Bloodrager you can get full effect.
You only gain a single class skill from the Bloodrager class level -- survival.
That said, you are delaying class features such as Spell Kenning, the rage powers that go with the song, and several other nice things.
In my opinion, it is a pretty fair trade-off. Each person has to see what they value most and decide based on that.
Markov Spiked Chain |
Markov do you find you lose a lot of value from the bloodrager dip after level 8 when your stats bonuses are the same between the 2 classes?
The actual Bloodrager dip hasn't been useful after 8th, but the familiar is just getting better and better because of your Rage Powers. I'm currently using Strength Surge+Savage Dirty Trick+Unexpected Strike, and "rage cycling" as a move action most turns. So the familiar is an extra almost guaranteed blind (+9 from Strength Surge!) and good chance at staggered, plus some extra damage. And he's soaking more damage for Fast Healing to fix. That's better than any particular extra Skald level IMHO.
Cavall |
Hmm was this that contested? "you gain fast healing equal to the Strength bonus your song provides" is from the feat (nothing about str modifier...so assuming straight str)
So deep researching right now (aka picking every word) Inspired rage gets a tad murky "based on her own ability and level instead of those from the skald" which implies that even if I get the +4 str from raging due to being a bloodrager...
So right there it could be argued that by taking the rage you're not taking the song so the song provides nothing. So you get fast healing nothing. The "instead" portion.
It really gets too muddy to argue and I'd expect a lot of table varient. At my table you'd get the song bonus and no more. It provides nothing more and so it goes nothing more.
BretI |
No gamble, just ask the GM before the session.
The Amplified Rage alone is worth it. Same for automatic fast healing. It is the combination that HMM and I are going for with our pair of half-orcs -- her with an Averaka arbiter bard and I with an Urban Skald.