Kinetic Fist mechanics


Rules Questions


Hey all,

I've been trying to figure out what Kinetic Fist counts as.
Is it a melee attack?
Or a Kinetic Blast?

Since you use it as part of an attack action, a charge action, or a full-attack action; that makes me think it's not a melee attack, but a Kinetic Blast.
But your blast is added damage, to your unarmed/natural attacks. That makes me perceive it as a natural attack!

Reasons I ask are...
Do I add a weapon enhancement/special abilites on an Amulet of Mighty Fist w/ Kinetic Fist to the roll?
If I'm level 1 using Kinetic Fist (with a physical blast) is the damage...
1d3+1d6+1?
or is it just
1d3+1d6?
Do I add Strength to Kinetic Fist? (I know I don't add Con)
Can I not normally Sunder w/ Kinetic Fist/Blade/Whip?
Since the blast is 'added' damage, would only my unarmed be multiplied w/ K. Fist?

Apologies for all the questions, I could just be overthinking this.


It is a natural attack.

Anything that affects natural attacks is a go.

It is not 1d6+1.

You can do whatever you want with kinetic fist. It's basically elemental fist you get for freeish.

Yes, only your unarmed gets the bonus damage. Unless you are doing down the cheatsy line of the aesthetic style.


Kinetic fist is an add-on to another action.
If you use the attack action to IUS or claw then you can use Kinetic fist too with that attack.
If you use the full-attack action to IUS or claw then you can use Kinetic fist too with that attack.

So all kinetic fist is doing is adding 1d6 to your other attacks. It's like a free flaming on an Amulet of Mighty fists.


The Mortonator wrote:
Unless you are doing down the cheatsy line of the aesthetic style.

Wait, are you referring to the Elemental Ascetic? Or the term aesthetic?

Is there something cheatsy about that archetype?
or is there an aesthetic style that is cheatsy?
If it's the latter, then something has gone over my head.
^^'

I do plan on using the Elemental Ascetic archetype though.


Part of what further convoluted my opinion on this was a feat that N Jolly made in Kineticists of Porphyra III.
I understand he is not Mark S. but I respect his work immensely.
(That said, I'll remove the following quoted feat if he'd prefer it. I don't wanna agitate anyone!)

wrote:

Kinetic Proficiency

Prerequisite: Devastating infusion, kinetic blade, or kinetic fist; Weapon Focus (kinetic blast)

Benefit: You may use devastating infusion, dual blades, kinetic blade, kinetic fist, or kinetic whip as part of a coup de grace, disarm, sunder, or trip attempt.

Normal: You may only use these blasts as part of an attack action, full attack, or charge.

I assumed I could already sunder with K. Fist, and the Kinetic Blast in general honestly.

This basically made me lean towards the idea that there were things I couldn't do with K. Fist.


The Mortonator was talking about the ascetic style feat. which the writer said was submitted incorrectly and is broken. But the feat lets you do things that normally need an unarmed strike to be done with a weapon.

If you treat K. Fist as a free flaming weapon enhancement on an Amulet of Mighty fist then you'll run it correctly.


Quote:
Do I add a weapon enhancement/special abilites on an Amulet of Mighty Fist w/ Kinetic Fist to the roll?

Yes. You're making an unarmed strike (or natural attack) and would apply modifiers as normal. Kinetic Fist merely provides extra damage.

Quote:

If I'm level 1 using Kinetic Fist (with a physical blast) is the damage...

1d3+1d6+1?
or is it just
1d3+1d6?

1d3+1d6.

Kinetic fist just says to add d6's and that the extra damage "doesn't apply any modifiers to your kinetic blast's damage, such as your Constitution modifier," that includes the +1's per d6 that comes with physical blasts.

Quote:
Do I add Strength to Kinetic Fist? (I know I don't add Con)

You'd add whatever modifier you'd use for your unarmed attacks/natural attacks (relevant for agile AoMF or unchained rogue level dipping). You then apply the d6's granted by kinetic fist.

So: 1d3 (or whatever your normal unarmed/natural weapon dice after feats, class features, and/or magic items) + Strength or Dexterity modifier (whatever you get to use with unarmed/natural attacks) + Xd6 (X = number of kinetic blast dice / 3, minumum of 1).

Quote:
Can I not normally Sunder w/ Kinetic Fist/Blade/Whip?

You're totally able to sunder/disarm/trip with kinetic whip/blade (source). Those maneuvers are attack actions and can be used with any melee weapon. For kinetic fist, it'll entirely be dependent on if you can do it with unarmed/natural attack. Unless something specifically disallows it, by default you can. For trip and disarm, there's no damage involved. For sunder, remember to halve the energy damage against hardness.

Quote:
Since the blast is 'added' damage, would only my unarmed be multiplied w/ K. Fist?

The PRD has this to say about critical hits when dealing with extra damage: "Exception: Precision damage (such as from a rogue's sneak attack class feature) and additional damage dice from special weapon abilities (such as flaming) are not multiplied when you score a critical hit."

Since the kinetic fist extra damage isn't precision nor a "special weapon ability", I'd say it gets multiplied.

Quote:

Kinetic Proficiency

Prerequisite: Devastating infusion, kinetic blade, or kinetic fist; Weapon Focus (kinetic blast)
Benefit: You may use devastating infusion, dual blades, kinetic blade, kinetic fist, or kinetic whip as part of a coup de grace, disarm, sunder, or trip attempt.
Normal: You may only use these blasts as part of an attack action, full attack, or charge.

I never looked at the KoP stuff so will have to go on guesswork.

Can only assume devastating infusion can be used at ranged for those maneuver options? Melee devastating infusion and blade/whip/ and kinetic fist (which are just unarmed or natural attacks) could already be used for disarm/sunder/trip attempts because they're attack actions.
Coup de grace is normally a full-round action and the blade/whip/devastating infusions only work on an "attack action, a charge action, or a full-attack action" so the feat will allow those options for CDG. Kinetic fist could already be done with CDG because it's an unarmed/natural attack.

The feat is weird because it looks only marginally useful since it's redundant with the melee options for the maneuvers. Only useful for CDG, and requires Weapon Focus (blast) which doesn't apply to kinetic fist.

Quote:
Apologies for all the questions, I could just be overthinking this.

No that's ok. Not a lot of people use kinetic fist because it's seen as really weak in comparison to kinetic blade/whip so not a lot of these questions came up.

Just remember that one doesn't get the second d6 for kinetic fist until kineticist level 11 when they blast for 6d6.

Weapon Focus (unarmed) or (a particular natural weapon) is used for kinetic fist instead of "Weapon Focus (kinetic blast)" because you're modifying another weapon, not using a kinetic blast in another form (like a normal form infusion).


Chess Pwn wrote:
The Mortonator was talking about the ascetic style feat. which the writer said was submitted incorrectly and is broken. But the feat lets you do things that normally need an unarmed strike to be done with a weapon.

Right. Sorry, I have dysgraphia so sometimes I mess two words up.

Anyways, as for Kinetic Proficiency... *coughs* I editted for KoP III but admittedly have other things vying for my attention and some things slipped in after I had already proofread. Still, excuses aside I'll take some responsibly as nixing these kinds of feats and talents was my job. My bad.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

Regarding Critical Hits, I think it will be done the same way as an Alchemist's Bombs, though there is no official ruling on it thus far.


Protoman wrote:
You're totally able to sunder/disarm/trip with kinetic whip/blade (source). Those maneuvers are attack actions and can be used with any melee weapon. For kinetic fist, it'll entirely be dependent on if you can do it with unarmed/natural attack. Unless something specifically disallows it, by default you can. For trip and disarm, there's no damage involved. For sunder, remember to halve the energy damage against hardness.

That's exactly the kind of source I was looking for!

The Mortonator wrote:

Right. Sorry, I have dysgraphia so sometimes I mess two words up.

Anyways, as for Kinetic Proficiency... *coughs* I editted for KoP III but admittedly have other things vying for my attention and some things slipped in after I had already proofread. Still, excuses aside I'll take some responsibly as nixing these kinds of feats and talents was my job. My bad.

Ahh, that makes sense. I've seen you around the Kineticist threads.

This clarified (I think) all of my questions. I honestly can't remember if there was anything else I was confused on.
Whenever I take these things up with my DM, he's easily skeptical. Reasonably so, I have asked for some home rulings on things and my friends used to play a lot of 3.5 in PF.
And I regularly default to the 'less powerful logic' of whatever is being discussed.

Thanks for the responses everyone!
I greatly appreciate the speedy and well reasoned responses!

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