Grumbaki |
Claws
"At 1st level, you grow claws. [u]These claws are treated as natural weapons, allowing you to make two claw attacks as a full attack, using your full base attack bonus.[/u] These attacks deal 1d6 points of damage each (1d4 if you are Small) plus your Strength modifier. At 4th level, these claws are considered magic weapons for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction. At 8th level, the damage increases to 1d8 points (1d6 if you are Small). At 12th level, these claws deal an additional 1d6 points of damage of your energy type on a hit."
Natural Attacks
"Most creatures possess one or more natural attacks (attacks made without a weapon). These attacks fall into one of two categories, primary and secondary attacks. [u]Primary attacks are made using the creature’s full base attack bonus and add the creature’s full Strength bonus on damage rolls.[/u] Secondary attacks are made using the creature’s base attack bonus –5 and add only 1/2 the creature’s Strength bonus on damage rolls. If a creature has only one natural attack, it is always made using the creature’s full base attack bonus and adds 1-1/2 times the creature’s Strength bonus on damage rolls. This increase does not apply if the creature has multiple attacks but only takes one. [u]If a creature has only one type of attack, but has multiple attacks per round, that attack is treated as a primary attack, regardless of its type.[/u]"
So does it work like this?
* Bloodrager has Str18 naturally. He bloodrages and gets Str22.
* At lvl 1 his BaB is 1. So with the strength and BaB, he gets +6 to his attack rolls.
* As the claws are natural attacks, he would get 2 attacks both hitting at +6.
Is that right?
Also what happens when he gets a second attack from leveling up?
* Bloodrager is at lvl6.
* His BaB is now +6/+1. I assume that he still has Str22 when bloodraging.
* He does a full attack. He now has 3 attacks. The first two claw attacks hit at +12, while the third claw attack now hits at +7.
Is that right?
Power Attack
"You can choose to take a –1 penalty on all melee attack rolls and combat maneuver checks to gain a +2 bonus on all melee damage rolls. This bonus to damage is increased by half (+50%) if you are making an attack with a two-handed weapon, a one handed weapon using two hands, or a primary natural weapon that adds 1-1/2 times your Strength modifier on damage rolls. This bonus to damage is halved (–50%) if you are making an attack with an off-hand weapon or secondary natural weapon."
* If the above was correct, then both attacks count as primary natural weapons that add the str modifier.
* So with power attack, both of the attacks would get the full +3 damage.
Also, if this is all correct, would it be worth it to make a claw wielding bloodrager just to make use of this extra full BaB attack? From where I'm standing, 2 attacks at 1d6+6 are better than 1 attack at 1d10+6. Even if you can't make them masterwork, and are limited to an amulet of mighty fists for increasing the damage from there.
As a comparison...elemental bloodrager gets +1d6 damage. So with a greatsword at lvl 1, that'd be 1d10+6(str)+1d6(bloodline)+3(power attack). An average of 17 damage.
Claws hit at 1d6+6(str)+3(power attack) for an average of 12 damage. If both hit, that is an average of 24 damage. So more likely to do some damage, with the chance of doing even more.
And unlike two-weapon fighting, nothing in the rules that I am reading seem to indicate that there would be a penalty for the offhand.
Final question
Is there a penalty for making the second attack attack with the claws? Or because it is a 'natural attack' it just goes off of the full BaB and that is it?
Brf |
You do not get iteratives with natural attacks, so at 6th level you would still get only the two claw attacks.
With power attack you only get 2 damage, not 3, because you are only getting 1*Strength added to damage. You would have 1-1/2*Strength only if you had a single natural attack, such as a bite or gore, not with two claws.
Ventnor |
Draconic Bloodragers benefit from being a race that can get a Bite or Gore natural attack, like Half-Orcs, Tieflings, or Skinwalkers.
An interesting thing to note about them is that their Bloodragevallows them to transform into a dragon at Level 16, right when most martial classes get their 4th iterative attack. Since dragons have a boatload of natural weapons, this works out pretty well for the Bloodrager in question.
Chess Pwn |
Here's how it works
lv1 1bab str 22 = strmod 6 routine = 2 claws +7 1d6+6
lv6 6bab str 22 = strmod 6 routine = 2 claws +12 1d6+6 -- natural attacks don't get extra attacks for high bab.
with Power attack
lv1 2 claws +6 1d6+8
lv6 2 claws +10 1d6+10
At lv1 with longsword routine = sword +7 1d8+6, claw +2 1d6+3 -- natural attacks when used with weapons go to secondary
At lv6 with longsword routine = sword +12/+7 1d8+6, claw +7 1d6+3
with Power attack
lv1 sword +6 1d8+8, claw +1 1d6+4
lv6 sword +10/+5 1d8+10, claw +5 1d6+5
At lv1 with greatsword routine = sword +7 2d6+9 -- no hand for claws
At lv6 with greatsword routine = sword +12/+7 2d6+9
Grumbaki |
Huh...I didn't know that the iterative attacks wouldn't apply. That really cuts down on the lvl6+ of the bloodrager's appeal.
Then again...instead of lvl6 he could instead go dragon disciple.
Would "Blood of Dragons" from Dragon Disciple stack with bloodrager bloodline power progression? If so, I could see this being a valid path.
Don't get iterative attacks...but wouldn't use them anyways. Instead get natural armor increase, bonus feats, a bite attack (another primary natural attack) and strength boosts.
All in all, so long as blood of dragons stacks, I can see it making for a pretty strong draconic bloodrager.
fretgod99 |
Huh...I didn't know that the iterative attacks wouldn't apply. That really cuts down on the lvl6+ of the bloodrager's appeal.
Natural attack builds (especially multiple natural attacks) are really, really strong pre-level 6. They can be quite solid mid-level. They generally will be relatively weak beyond that (after like level 11 or 12 or so).
Ultimately it depends on what you're wanting to do, where you think you'll be spending most of your time, and where your particular adventure is likely to cap out at.
Prof. Löwenzahn |
If you plan a little ahead, natural attacks outdamage every weapon user I believe.
Just take a Wereboar Bloodrager or Barbarian. Buy a pelt of the beast as soon as you have some money and you have 1 gore, 1 bite, 2 claws, 2 hooves. If you are short on money, you can always take a rage power and a feat to gain the bite and hooves.
That are 4 attacks at full BAB and 2 secondary attacks. And you can get them way before other melees get their 4th iterative, at level 4 exactly, if you intend to.
Then the amulet of mighty fists is extremely cheap for all those attacks. It's double the price of a weapon enchantment, and it applies to all 6 attacks.