Albion, The Eye |
Hi everyone,
I read a lot of stuff on the Sacred Fist and how it got the 'nerf bat' just some time ago.
I am about to join a game at level 4 (25 pt buy), bringing a replacement character for my paladin that met with an unfortunate demise.
Our last encounter has brought to light some group needs - some frontline 'beefiness' and healing (even out of combat healing) so I wanted to address those two main issues, and was thinking about building a Warpriest focused on unarmed combat. That being said, there are a few mechanical aspects I am not 100% sure I have grasped, so wanted to ask you all if the build below makes any sense:
Half-Orc (with Sacred Tatoo racial) Warpriest (no archetype)
Traits: Fate's Favored, ???
S:15+2+1 D:14 C:14 I:14 W:14 Ch:8 (stats at level 4)
HP: 35
AC: 21 = 10 + 7[+1 Breastplate] + 2[DEX] + 2[Shield]
L1 Monk: Combat Reflexes, Toughness
L2 Warpriest
L3 Warpriest: Power Attack
L4 Warpriest: Dragon Style
Notable Items: Amulet of Might Fists +1
This is where the character would start. The monk level is there for saves, feats and, if I understand correctly, to qualify him for Crusader's Flurry (Unarmed) at level 5. On to some questions:
- Am I correct in assuming that, with Crusader Flurry I can flurry even with armor on? And for that matter, also use a shield?
- At this level, he would be packing (without buffs, only Dragon Style and PA on) a single attack per round at +7 to hit, and d6+4+2[Dragon Style]+2[PA]+1[AoMF]= d6+9. Does this looke decent? And also, am I doing the math correctly?
- Am I taking Power Attack too soon, and could swap it out perhaps with someting else more useful at this point (perhaps with Dragon Style for now, Crusader's Flurry at 5, and Dragon Ferocity at 7, I'm doing well enough even without PA)?
I'll stop with the questions for now, and ask you all what you think about the above?
Thanks in advance.
Olaf the Holy |
-No. You follow the regular restrictions for flurry. The only thing that changes is that your deity's favored weapon is treated as a monk weapon. Unarmed strikes are already flurry-able, so crusader's flurry is useless to you.
Benefit: You can use your deity’s favored weapon as if it were a monk weapon.
That's all it does. However, if your monk levels, or whereever you get your flurry from allows doing so in armor, you can use it in armor. Example: Sohei archetype monks get to use their flurry of blows in armor (technically any type of armor).
-It looks okay. You won't be winning any DPR races, but you're not hopelessly backwards either.
-Power attack is good where it is. Crusader's Flurry doesn't do anything for you, but I'd second taking Dragon Ferocity at 5th.
Hayato Ken |
Sacred fist is a bit similar like the CRB monk in progression, with the slight difference that you get spells on top of that and instead of evasion, you get evasion on fort saves.
Even without shenanigans like fate´s favored, the sacred fist is pretty strong. Key here are the spells.
Offensive:
-blessed fists (+1 attack/damage and overcome evil DR)
-divine favor
-weapon of awe
-divine power
-magic weapon, later magic weapon, greater
Defensive:
-shield of fate
-protection from XY
-iron skin
-magic vestment
I would do stats like:
STR>WIS>CON>DEX>INT>CHA
Dragon Style is fine, but not sure what you want power attack and combat reflexes for. You don´t really need either except they are prereqs for something. And for you it´s more important to have a better to hit.
Also should you multiclass, take 2 levels of monk to get evasion.
Or consider 3-4 levels of unchained rogue and do a DEX unarmed warpriest thing, goes well too.
Albion, The Eye |
Olaf and Chess, thanks for the feedback.
This raises a couple few more questions for me:
- As a Sohei, I should only be able to flurry if I am wearing Light armor. Is this correct? Or as soon as I take Sohei, if I get the armor proficiency from any other source it does not bar Flurry?
- My second question is regarding the shield. In the case above I assume I also cannot furry while carrying a shield? Even if Sohei. Correct?
- Last but not least, perhaps it would be a good alternative to take 2 levels of Brawler, maybe even Shield Champion? I would be able to use any armor, and shield, and still flurry would I not? I think I would lose a feat in the process though...
Hayato Ken |
1. Yes. Only without and in light armor.
(Can easily be outranked by WIS+DEX+magic vestment etc.)
2. No flurries with a shield.
3. It wouldn´t. Crusaders flurry only allows your deitys favorite weapon to work in a flurry, nothing else. There is no deity having a shield as a favorite weapon that i´m aware of.
Even multiclassing like that doesn´t help, since the monks and the sacred fists abilities won´t work then. That´s also true for sohei monk + sacred fist, doesn´t work.
You can go with unchained monk (better for multiclassing anyway) and sacred fist and flurry with the monk weapons though.
Ascetic style feat line will let you have a higher damage dice there as well eventually.
Albion, The Eye |
Hayato, I was hinting at continuing unarmed focused, but taking 2 levels of Brawler instead of Monk, thus being based off Brawler's Flurry - this one allows flurry with a Spiked Shield, does it not?
And in that case I would not take Crusader Flurry, since I would already have the flurry from Brawler - does it make sense? Or is Brawler Flurry inferior?
So, I would be able to flurry (Brawler's), I would be able to use armor (Light), and also Shields. Eventually, I could also flurry with the shield (normal brawler's flurry, not Crusader's).
You can see now why I am asking for advice, right? :D
Hayato Ken |
Doesn´t make sense^^
Brawler flurry, monks flurry and sacred fist are not compatible in that way as far as i know.
Imbicatus has it right, straight warpriest s best.
The only reasons i could see for multiclassing is an unchained monk for evasion and some more ki perhaps or unchained rogue for DEX to damage, evasion and some other fun stuff.
Straight warpriest sacred fist is still very strong, despite what some people claim. With the right spells, focus on some WIS, STR and DEX you´ll have a high enough AC and enough attack power.
Don´t forget, you also get blessings and other stuff, you can cast things like raise dead, restoration, etc and heal yourself!
With the air blessing, you can also have the best shuriken thrower in the whole game!
Chess Pwn |
Flurries don't stack because they don't say they do. If you dip you'd have two different flurries. Like a Monk 7 Sacred Fist 7 can flurry for only 1 extra attack as neither have 8 levels to get the second extra attack. Same with brawler 7 SF7. Though the Brawler has a cool shortcut that you could take ITWF and get the second attack during a flurry, but they flurries don't stack.
Albion, The Eye |
@Imbicatus: You are right I know. But here's the thing: Sacred Fist built at level 4 has 2 feats. If I spend one for Two-Weapon Fighting, I'm down to one - Toughness is not brilliant, but he needs survivability, Dragon Ferocity and Power Attack are both useful to up my damage from meaningless to something that maybe means they cannot ignore me. So I am hard pressed to chose.
Also I would need to up my Dex to 15, Dragon Style goes out the window, and my AC is lackluster, even with a 16 in Wis and a 14 in Dex (Maybe the answer is going into a Dex build, but then I am sinking even more feats?)
On the same logic, if I go Sacred Fist, again I am down to 2 feats and that's it.
Now I know I can buff really well, but we are looking at 4xlevel 1 spells + 2xlevel 2 spells - I won't be buffing that much over the day, and I get a feel our days are going to be long. So my concern is that I won't really be doing any of the intended goals - I'll have a low AC (17-19), I won't pack that much of a punch, and I don't have enough spells to rule :D
The only reasons i could see for multiclassing is an unchained monk for evasion and some more ki perhaps or unchained rogue for DEX to damage, evasion and some other fun stuff.
Again, I understand the issues with diminished spellcasting believe me, but if I go Brawler (Hybrid Class)2/Warpriest (no archetype)X won't I be gaining effectively a feat (2-Weapon Fighting), the ability to flurry in armor, and the possibility to wear a shield on top of that? Or I'm overlooking something basic (could be)?
Straight warpriest sacred fist is still very strong, despite what some people claim. With the right spells, focus on some WIS, STR and DEX you´ll have a high enough AC and enough attack power.
I will need also at least a decent CON if I want to be a frontliner, right?
Don´t forget, you also get blessings and other stuff, you can cast things like raise dead, restoration, etc and heal yourself!
With the air blessing, you can also have the best shuriken thrower in the whole game!
Hehe, the divine part is something I am not forgetting, or I woudl be playing a straight Unchained Monk :D
Sorry for trailing off on a tangent but isn't a 2 or 4 level warpriest dip also a viable option for many builds?
I'm sure they do Alex - mind sharing? :D
Flurries don't stack because they don't say they do. If you dip you'd have two different flurries. Like a Monk 7 Sacred Fist 7 can flurry for only 1 extra attack as neither have 8 levels to get the second extra attack. Same with brawler 7 SF7. Though the Brawler has a cool shortcut that you could take ITWF and get the second attack during a flurry, but they flurries don't stack.
Herein lies one of my doubts - I am not intending to stack flurries. The plan would be either Brawler/Warpriest, or Monk/Warpriest. Am I looking at it all wrong?
Say for example, this guy:
Half-Orc (with Sacred Tatoo racial) Brawler (no archetype)2/Warpriest (no archetype)2
Traits: Fate's Favored, ???
S:15+2+1 D:14 C:14 I:14 W:14 Ch:8 (stats at level 4)
HP: 38
AC: 21 = 10 + 7[+1 Breastplate] + 2[DEX] + 2[Shield]
L1 Brawler: Toughness
L2 Warpriest
L3 Brawler: Power Attack, Dragon Style (bonus Brawler feat)
L4 Warpriest
Notable Items: Amulet of Might Fists +1
He packs a decent AC and saves (not as good as if he had started Monk I agree), can buff (very limited, I agree), but by default with Dragon Style is flurrying at +6/+6 for d6+9/d6+7.
Next level he piles 2 more feats from Warpriest and level 5 (Dragon Ferocity and... Heck maybe even Crusader's flurry and I'll start flurrying with a Bastard Sword? :D). Doesn't look good?
Imbicatus |
@Imbicatus: You are right I know. But here's the thing: Sacred Fist built at level 4 has 2 feats. If I spend one for Two-Weapon Fighting, I'm down to one - Toughness is not brilliant, but he needs survivability, Dragon Ferocity and Power Attack are both useful to up my damage from meaningless to something that maybe means they cannot ignore me. So I am hard pressed to chose.
Actually, I was suggesting just being a Warpriest with unarmed, not a Sacred Fist. Actually, a Molthuni Arsenal Champlain worshiping Irori is probably one of the best options for unarmed you could do. Hell, you could go heavy armor + shield and still TWF unarmed strikes.
Albion, The Eye |
Albion, The Eye wrote:Actually, I was suggesting just being a Warpriest with unarmed, not a Sacred Fist. Actually, a Molthuni Arsenal Champlain worshiping Irori is probably one of the best options for unarmed you could do. Hell, you could go heavy armor + shield and still TWF unarmed strikes.@Imbicatus: You are right I know. But here's the thing: Sacred Fist built at level 4 has 2 feats. If I spend one for Two-Weapon Fighting, I'm down to one - Toughness is not brilliant, but he needs survivability, Dragon Ferocity and Power Attack are both useful to up my damage from meaningless to something that maybe means they cannot ignore me. So I am hard pressed to chose.
How? :D
Warpreist worship Irori
feats from class
lv1) IUS, WF
lv3) combat feat
lv6) combat featexample
1)IUS, WF, toughness
3)2wf, dragon style
5)dragon ferocity
6)ITWF, power attackHuman FCB for extra feat at 6.
Chess Pwn, this is for a Sacred Fist right (because of IUS)? How would you set up the stat spread? What kind of AC and HP would we be looking at here (ballpark)? I'm just asking because I intend to frontline ;)
Also, you would take 2wf even if you have Flurry?
Chess Pwn |
No, that's for normal WP. Hence why you're taking TWF and worshiping Irori.
This build lets you TWF in heavy armor and use a shield if you wanted.
So stats are
16+2/12/14/12/14/7
AC = 22 with full-plate and heavy shield, obtainable by lv2.
HP = 11+8per level* (toughness averages to this, it's a little front-loaded though)
verdict, very solid front-liner. HP is Good and AC is good.
Imbicatus |
And the reason that Molthuni Arsenal Champlain is better than base warpriest, is you get War blessing, which is generally pretty nice and not available to Irori, and you trade sacred weapon dice progression past 1d6 for weapon training. Weapon Training is very, very good for the build, helping your accuracy, and making up for the lost damage. Especially since they allow you to use Gloves of Dueling and (if not PFS) advanced weapon training feats.
nicholas storm |
No, that's for normal WP. Hence why you're taking TWF and worshiping Irori.
This build lets you TWF in heavy armor and use a shield if you wanted.So stats are
16+2/12/14/12/14/7
AC = 22 with full-plate and heavy shield, obtainable by lv2.
HP = 11+8per level* (toughness averages to this, it's a little front-loaded though)
verdict, very solid front-liner. HP is Good and AC is good.
You are going to need a 15DEX, so stats would be more like:
14+2/15/14/12/14/7 or
16+2/15/12/10/14/7
Chess Pwn |
Chess Pwn wrote:No, that's for normal WP. Hence why you're taking TWF and worshiping Irori.
This build lets you TWF in heavy armor and use a shield if you wanted.So stats are
16+2/12/14/12/14/7
AC = 22 with full-plate and heavy shield, obtainable by lv2.
HP = 11+8per level* (toughness averages to this, it's a little front-loaded though)
verdict, very solid front-liner. HP is Good and AC is good.You are going to need a 15DEX, so stats would be more like:
14+2/15/14/12/14/7 or
16+2/15/12/10/14/7
Dang, forgot that.
16+2/16/14/7/13/7 put your lv4 into dex to qualify for ITWF at 6.Or since we don't need the extra feat go Dual talent human for
17+2/14+2/14/7/14/7
benaji |
If your thinking of dragon style (requires 15 str), monk, and combat reflexes (min 16 Dex for benefit).
Then take Master of Many styles, allowing for 2 styles 1 lvl dip, replaces a useless FOB, removes the 15 str requirement for dragon style allowing you to focus on combat reflexes.
For my dragon style character I took charger trait. For extra bs charging.
Albion, The Eye |
No, that's for normal WP. Hence why you're taking TWF and worshiping Irori.
This build lets you TWF in heavy armor and use a shield if you wanted.So stats are
16+2/12/14/12/14/7
AC = 22 with full-plate and heavy shield, obtainable by lv2.
HP = 11+8per level* (toughness averages to this, it's a little front-loaded though)
verdict, very solid front-liner. HP is Good and AC is good.
Got it ;)
Quick question though (I have more later on :) - you won'be using shield + 2wf, right? At least not for the time being?
Another thing, and this has nothing to do with the build since I see it works - two stats at 7 make me cringe :P
Marcus Steelfeather |
Just throwing the idea:
If you get 1 lvl of Unchained Monk, you cant get Unchained Flurry of Blows, that gives you one extra attack at your highest BAB score when you make a full attack, and Unc. Monk is a d10 HP class.
You also get a lot of weapon proficiencies, I personally would use a Sansetsukon or another weapon until my Unarmed Strike is causing some damage(1d10+), and this also helps with DR problems early game.
You also get one monk feat, if you are having trouble with AC, get Dodge, dodging things is always good.
After the first lvl, you can get warpriest(I suggest sacred fist for unarmored AC stacks) levels,
Good traits are fates favored and quain martial artist or reactionary or optmistic gambler or magical knack(if monk 2 / sacred fist x).
Since you start at lvl 4, you can get another monk lvl if you wish, for evasion and some more monk fu HP and feats, as this will not delay your access to Fevor.
Your stats are rolled or are you using point buy?
If you really, really want to use Monk + Warpriest(with armor), I suggest you get racial heritage(hobgoblin) and take 1 lvl of ironskin monk, now you can use armor and you got some free natural armor and power attack as monk bonus feat, but now you can't flurry of blows.
Chess Pwn |
Chess Pwn wrote:No, that's for normal WP. Hence why you're taking TWF and worshiping Irori.
This build lets you TWF in heavy armor and use a shield if you wanted.So stats are
16+2/12/14/12/14/7
AC = 22 with full-plate and heavy shield, obtainable by lv2.
HP = 11+8per level* (toughness averages to this, it's a little front-loaded though)
verdict, very solid front-liner. HP is Good and AC is good.Got it ;)
Quick question though (I have more later on :) - you won'be using shield + 2wf, right? At least not for the time being?
Another thing, and this has nothing to do with the build since I see it works - two stats at 7 make me cringe :P
Sure you can use a shield while TWF with unarmed strikes. Kick/Kick. Nothing about that needs you to not use a shield. One of the big advantages to non-monk going unarmed, you get free shield use.
If you're okay not getting ITWF then you can lower dex some and have less dumps.
16+2/15/12/10/14/7
Alex Mack |
If you really, really want to use Monk + Warpriest(with armor), I suggest you get racial heritage(hobgoblin) and take 1 lvl of ironskin monk, now you can use armor and you got some free natural armor and power attack as monk bonus feat, but now you can't flurry of blows.
If you want to Flurry in Armor use Sohei. But that's limited to light armor.
You seem intent on using unarmed strikes here. Not sure if that's ideal for dipping Warpriest but here is what you get from 2 levels of War priest assuming 14 WIS:
3 x times per day swift action Divine Favor for +2 to hit and Damage assuming Fate's Favored
Weapon focus
+3 WIL and FORT
only +1 BAB
2 Blessings which vary in usefulness
4 levels assuming you pick magical lineage and Fate's favored:
4x times per day swift action Fate's favored for +3/+3
a Bonus Feat
2nd Level spells which can also be fervored
Channel Energy and Blessed Weapon
Now combine that with 3 levels of unchained Monk and you get to add to that a WIS based Ki-Pool for free attacks and Flurry of Blows for more free attacks. I'm not saying this is gonna be your best plan here but 2 to 4 levels of Warpriest are a very viable dip for anyone who relies on WIS.
Albion, The Eye |
Ok, there is a lot to digest :D But:
@Chess Pwn: Here is the thing I feel regarding going full WP with 2wf:
- Obviously without a dip, the casting is improved, I will not deny that;
- However, your CON is diminished;
- Skills are close to zero;
- And for some reason Herolab is telling me you cannot 2wf with a Heavy Shield in your offhand.
- I can't seem to fit all the feats I would like. At level 4 we have as an half orc
Level 1 WP: Weapon Focus + IUS
Level 2 WP
Level 3 WP: Dragon Style + 2w-fighting
And that's it - no toughness, so around... 31HP or 27 if with CON12, which seems kinda low.
Apart from that, the option looks quite solid.
@Imbicatus: I like the minor War blessing, but I am not crazy about the Major one (was planning on going Ragathiel with good and Destruction). Apart from that, yeah, wow - Weapon Training would be great for such an unarmed build :D
Apart from that, since my group is not packing much in the way of healing, I'm not sure giving up Channel would be a good idea, as minor as it is on a Warpriest :P
But again, just the Weapon Training has got me thinking about it.
@benaji: I HAD thought about that possibility, going for unarmored Master of Many Styles 1/Sacred Fist 3 (since MoMS does not get flurry) - combining Crane and Dragon styles, I would be more happy about my AC, but I wouldn't hit anything... BAB starts off with a sad +2, and gets eaten away by Crane even further. Else I don't think the AC will be decent.
Looking at Dex16 and Wis16 would pack an AC like 17 (with the AC bonus from Sacred Fist) - on a frontliner at level 4. I dunno. What do you think?
Just throwing the idea:
If you get 1 lvl of Unchained Monk, you cant get Unchained Flurry of Blows, that gives you one extra attack at your highest BAB score when you make a full attack, and Unc. Monk is a d10 HP class.
You also get a lot of weapon proficiencies, I personally would use a Sansetsukon or another weapon until my Unarmed Strike is causing some damage(1d10+), and this also helps with DR problems early game.
You also get one monk feat, if you are having trouble with AC, get Dodge, dodging things is always good.
After the first lvl, you can get warpriest(I suggest sacred fist for unarmored AC stacks) levels,
Good traits are fates favored and quain martial artist or reactionary or optmistic gambler or magical knack(if monk 2 / sacred fist x).
Since you start at lvl 4, you can get another monk lvl if you wish, for evasion and some more monk fu HP and feats, as this will not delay your access to Fevor.
Your stats are rolled or are you using point buy?
Stats are point buy (25 pts), and this is probably the option I like the best, with a single level dip in Unchained Monk. My main concern is the AC which will be around 10+3(Dex)+3(Wis)+1(Dodge)+1(SF) = 18? It is low as heck, isn't it? I'm starting with an Amulet of Mighty Fists +1, so I can't buy anything to add to my AC.
@Alex Mack: You definitely got me thinking there. I think you make a VERY valid point... I do think my best option is to stick to Warpriest because my group lacks any significant Divine presence, and that will turn out to be a BIG problem, since zapping the wand of CLW won't probably be enough.
I am building that character nonetheless, just to see how he comes out :D
Alex Mack |
If you need a divine caster then dipping is prolly not a good idea. I tend to see Warpriest primarily as a martial. However the Cleric spell list gives it quite a bit of flexibility to deal with all sorts of problems.
Remember that casting Mage armor from a wand is usually an option and wands of mage armor are dirt cheap. So AC isn't actually all that horrible.
Hayato Ken |
I´m acutally playing an archer warpriest through mummys mask as the only divine casting character there.
Of course channeling and spellcasting are diminished, but it´s still enough.
Don´t worry about your AC.
Wether you play a sacred fist or a normal warpriest, you have spells to raise your AC.
Namely shield of faith or protection from evil on level 1, both giving a +2 deflection bonus, but not stacking.
Level 4 you get ironskin, what gives a rising +4 natural armor enhancement bonus.
That means at level 4 you can have an AC of 10 + DEX 3 + WIS 3 + dodge 1 + SF 1 + protection from evil 2 + ironskin 4 = 24.
Get someone to cast mage armor on you and you rock a 28 AC.
On level 7 you get magic vestment to further enhance that.
Albion, The Eye |
If you need a divine caster then dipping is prolly not a good idea. I tend to see Warpriest primarily as a martial. However the Cleric spell list gives it quite a bit of flexibility to deal with all sorts of problems.
Remember that casting Mage armor from a wand is usually an option and wands of mage armor are dirt cheap. So AC isn't actually all that horrible.
Yeah... I know that. But I'm just a sucker for self sufficiency :P
And casting Mage Armor from a level1 Wand means 1 zap per hour - kinda crazy, no?My thoughts on the divine casting are the same, I'll stick with Warpriest MAYBE dipping something else, at least he has the whole Cleric list to chose from :D
I´m acutally playing an archer warpriest through mummys mask as the only divine casting character there.
Of course channeling and spellcasting are diminished, but it´s still enough.Don´t worry about your AC.
Wether you play a sacred fist or a normal warpriest, you have spells to raise your AC.
Namely shield of faith or protection from evil on level 1, both giving a +2 deflection bonus, but not stacking.
Level 4 you get ironskin, what gives a rising +4 natural armor enhancement bonus.
That means at level 4 you can have an AC of 10 + DEX 3 + WIS 3 + dodge 1 + SF 1 + protection from evil 2 + ironskin 4 = 24.
Get someone to cast mage armor on you and you rock a 28 AC.On level 7 you get magic vestment to further enhance that.
The numbers do stack pretty fast, I'll give you that :D
But here's the thing, I have a feeling our adventuring days are going to be LONG, so on the scenario above:
- At level 2 I pack 2xlevel2 spells (probably not taking 2xIronskin)
- I'd rather not assume Mage Armor because I'm just like that :P
- So the combo goes off once in my adventuring day;
Then let's assume I revert to Prot from Evil or Shield of Faith after the above is spent:
- By then I am packing... 4xlevel1 spells (and we already spent one), but let's assume I have another, or even two more;
- We are now looking at a meager AC20 on a frontliner, after the available buffs have landed;
Two fights, and I am halfway through my resources. When they are expended, I am at AC 18 :P
If I was a second line damage dealer, I could be much more selective with my buffs (protection or offense depending on the situation), but on the frontline, if I have to buff for a decent AC every time I am in a fight, I've got a problem. Wouldn't you agree?
===================================
EDIT: I do have a question about Two-Weapon fighting that is still nagging me:
Two-Weapon Fighting (Combat)
You can fight with a weapon wielded in each of your hands. You can make one extra attack each round with the secondary weapon.
Prerequisite: Dex 15.
Benefit: Your penalties on attack rolls for fighting with two weapons are reduced. The penalty for your primary hand lessens by 2 and the one for your off hand lessens by 6. See Two-Weapon Fighting.
Normal: If you wield a second weapon in your off hand, you can get one extra attack per round with that weapon. When fighting in this way you suffer a –6 penalty with your regular attack or attacks with your primary hand and a –10 penalty to the attack with your off hand. If your off-hand weapon is light, the penalties are reduced by 2 each. An unarmed strike is always considered light.
Emphasis mine of course, but... It doesn't look like you can take 2wf, go around with a shield, and use kick/punch combo. Or did I miss a FAQ somewhere?
Marcus Steelfeather |
For AC, my suggestion if you want to dip monk, is to get Racial Heritage (Hobgoblin) and get Ironskin Monk and mix with sacred fist.
Why? Because they lose AC Wisdom bonus for natural armor bonus, but sacred fist don't lose AC Wisdom bonus and still stacks with monk lvls, so you get natural armor and AC wisdom bonus.
Ironskin Monk can get Power Attack via monk feats and a cool evasion-like ability for Fortitude Saves.
And monk lvls count as Full BAB for flurry, so you're not going to lose much flurry BAB here.
I would suggest this item as soon as posible, because you really like swift actions.
Stats I suggest are:
Str 16+2, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 12, Wis 15+1, Cha 7
or
Str 17+1+2, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 7, Wis 16, Cha 7
CA 18 = 10 + 2[DEX] +3[WIS] +1[Monk AC Bonus] +1[Natural armor] +1[Dodge]
If you need some more lvl 1 spells for buff and etc, consider getting a few Pearls of Power.
Porridge |
1 person marked this as a favorite. |
As a rule of thumb:
AC = level + 10 is poor
AC = level + 15 is average
AC = level + 20 is great
So an AC of 18 at level 4 is a little below average. Not great for a front liner, but doable if you have a lot of hit points (barbarian), another means of defense (geokineticist DR), or a good source of in-combat healing (paladin's mercies, warpriest's fervors).
(As others have said, putting some ranks into Use Magic Device and getting a Wand of Mage armor is a good idea for any in armored melee type. (You need UMD because you can't have someone else cast it on you, as it's a target personal spell.) At 15gp a charge, for an hour of +4 AC, it's delivers great bang for your buck. But, yes, I know, you've said that you don't want to pursue that option...)
Marcus Steelfeather |
Marcus, in your opinion, AC18 is a good one for a frontliner at level 4?
If you are a Barbarian or have another font of healing inside combat is doable.
Pure Sacred fist and pure Monk have better options to get AC. In these first levels it's not worth the dip for that amount of SAD, bur after lvl 8 the dip would be great.
With pure sacred fist you should get a wand of mage armor +4 armor is really good and probably won't ran out of charges until lvl 7~8.
There is a good option, if you can change your +1 Amulet of Mighty Fist into an Agile Amulet of Mighty Fist, you could get your AC into a more decent level and get a good damage with your dex:
The problem with magic itens for monks is that you want a good Str, Dex and Con, but if you can dump Str, you can really get ahead in damage.
Half-Orc (with Sacred Tatoo racial) Monk 2 / Sacred Fist 2
Traits: Fate's Favored, (An UMD trait)
S:10 D:17+2+1 C:14 I:11 W:16 Ch:7 (stats at level 4)
HP: 16+3d8(+ Favored Class Bonus HP if any)
AC 20 = 10 + 5[DEX] +3[WIS] +1[Monk AC Bonus] +1[Dodge]
Feats:
Nv 1: Weapon Finesse
Nv 3: Piranha Strike
Sacred Fist Bonus Feats:
Improved Unarmed Strike
Monk Bonus Feats:
Stunning Fist, Dodge, Combat Reflexes(really good with high dex)
Notable Items: Agile Amulet of Mighty Fist
I would probably use this build, because now Dex is your main atribute for damage, reflex saves, AC and Initiative. I would still try to use a Wand of Magic Armor until I get a +4 Bracers of Armor for some more AC.
AC 20 is a good AC(not super good, but good), and now you can safely go full unarmored(like a monk) up to lvl 20.
Good feats for this build are Agile Maneuvers(if you are planning on using Trip, Grapple, etc), Panther Style(For some extra attacks when you are roaming in the battlefield).
Marcus Steelfeather |
With the above build. I also suggest 2 lvls of unchained monk instead of normal monk. Unchained flurry is good, and mixing it with sacred fist flurry is gold, because unchained monk has full bab. Even if your GM don't let you mix the 2 flurrys, you still can use the sacred fist flurry with an BAB of 3 at lvl 4(no BAB loss here).
Unchained monk has good Fort and Reflex saves, Warpriest has good Will and Fort saves, your fot saves will be really good with the Dip, 2 lvls from an d10 HP class is really worth for a frontline fighter.
HP will be something around 35
18+1d10+2d8+(favored class bonus if any)
Fort 8, Reflex 8, Will 6
Back to AC, AC of 20 is not amazing, but with the wand of mage armor, 24 AC is really good, and if you want to invest into Panther style, Mobility feat can help you to add it up to 28 AC.
Albion, The Eye |
I am still here. Just hammered by work...
I'm almost convinced - you guys present some compelling arguments against my idea of brawler2/sacred fist2 with armor and shield :)
(is it that bad? With 18, 14, 14, 14, 14, 8, it has more hp, martial flexibility, good saves, great AC, good damage, more skills... I'm only really sad about the terrible, terrible mobility... I would like to be able to move across the battlefield with ease...)
Marcus, on your Dex idea above, what about damage..? If I don't hurt them, they don't care about me and go hit someone else right?
Apologies for the funky phone posting format :P
Marcus Steelfeather |
I am still here. Just hammered by work...
Marcus, on your Dex idea above, what about damage..? If I don't hurt them, they don't care about me and go hit someone else right?
What will be your damage with brawler/warpriest STR focused at lvl 4?
------
Unarmed damage of lvl 4 monk is 1d8, you will add your full DEX to dmg. And depending on your GM you have acess to 3 attacks or 2 attacks from flurry.
Piranha Strike work almost as power attack, but to finesse weapons.
Final damage will be something around this:
1d8+5(dex) +2(P. Strike) +2(Divine Favor) = 1d8+9
Lvl 5 you gain one more BAB, so piranha strike increases to +4.
Lvl 6 your divine favor increases to +3.
At lvl 4 your attacks will be:
Best case scenario is Unchained flurry + Sacred Fist flurry
+9/+7/+7 1d8+9 (20x2) [Blundgeoning] = DPR 20,83
Worst case scenario is only Sacred Fist flurry
+7/+7 1d8+9 (20x2) [Blundgeoning] = DPR 13,09
At lvl 6 your attacks will be:
Best case scenario
+11/+9/+9 1d8+12 (20x2) [Blundgeoning] = DPR 24,21
Worst case scenario
+9/+9 1d8+12 (20x2) [Blundgeoning] = DPR 15,3
That's not something the monsters can easily ignore.
DPR calculation was made based on CR = your lvl
All of this is assuming you won't get a Belt of Dex+2 after 2 lvls, wich you should try to get, as it will give you +1 AC, to Hit, Dmg and Reflex.
Albion, The Eye |
How are you getting that stat array?
25 pt buy at level 4 with a stat bump on STR.
STR: 15+2+1
DEX: 14
CON: 14
INT: 14
WIS: 14
CHA: 8
@Marcus: Just wanted to say I am not trying to argue the Brawler idea is 'better' than your own Marcus. In fact I am very inclined to use yours because I am looking for a frontliner, but I want also a mobile combatant, who can get to the other side of the fray in a jiffy if needed.
In any case, here is what makes me balk on your build idea:
S:10 D:17+2+1 C:14 I:11 W:16 Ch:7 (stats at level 4)
I guess I am too picky about some things, and STR10 won't allow me to carry anything at all :P
I think I can eat up the horrible, horrible Cha dump, because almost all of the RP in the game I am in is within the group itself.
Int 11 is just as sad as can be, I would like to have at least 4 or 5 decent skils.
As for the brawler:
- I was going with a more balanced stat spread, which gives me 20 skill points at level 4;
- 38HP (no big difference there)
- Martial Flexibility (Isn't this just an amazing win?)
Unarmed damage of lvl 4 monk is 1d8, you will add your full DEX to dmg. And depending on your GM you have acess to 3 attacks or 2 attacks from flurry.
Piranha Strike work almost as power attack, but to finesse weapons.
Final damage will be something around this:
1d8+5(dex) +2(P. Strike) +2(Divine Favor) = 1d8+9
First, thank you for pointing out something I wasn't aware of before - SF and Monk levels stack for Unarmed damage, which is very good (but please see below).
Also, in a similar scenario I had planned to mix UC Monk with straight Warpriest instead of SF, because of the feat, because Sacred Weapon Unarmed, going Ragathiel (for the blessings) instead of Irori, sacred armor, etc. But SF has other advantages, mainly if going unarmored I guess.
Damage wise (I go with amulet of Mighty Fists +1 instead of Agile):
-> To hit: +3[BAB] + 4[STR] +1[WF] +1[AoMF] =+9 (Flurry +7/+7)
1d6+4[STR] + 2[Dragon Style] + 2[Power Attack] +1[AoMF]= d6+9 on first strike, and d6+7 on subsequent
If I add Divine favor (to hit +11 (Flurry +9/+9)), it goes to d6+11 on first and d6+9 on second, but I want him to be effective from scratch, not actually 'needing' to buff, but getting better if he does.
__
If I go with a stat spread similar to yours 20, 14, 14, 11, 14, 7
-> To hit: +3[BAB] + 5[STR] +1[WF] +1[AoMF] =+10 (Flurry +8/+8)
1d6+5[STR] + 2[Dragon Style] + 2[Power Attack] +1[AoMF]= d6+10 on first strike, and d6+8 on subsequent
If I add Divine favor, it goes to d6+12 on first and d6+10 on second
Actually I guess all in all, there is no massive difference in damage, maybe 1 point of damage in average?
As far as AC goes, with a full plate and a shield he is at AC 22, which is a 2 point difference from your idea. Not dramatic I agree.
__
Summing it up:
- To hit and damage are similar, the STR build pulling slightly ahead, but more definitively at level 5 when I take Dragon Ferocity. Would you agree?
- AC is better for the Brawler by two points (if we add Mage Armor to the equation, things change of course);
- I'm going to say the saves are equivalent;
- The brawler allows a more balanced stat spread, and thus more skills, and less dumping (STR and CHA in your case);
- Your build is WAY more mobile, which is something I like a LOT;
- Your build depends a LOT on gear, and this worries me - without an Agile AoMF things plumet real fast as far as damage is concerned, even with Piranha Strike (do you agree?). Would this be a deal breaker if I told you there are no magic-marts available? ;)
A last note to say, thank you for all the feedback so far!!
And another one to say I WANT to go unarmored. It is just that I don't want to get mowed down like a sack of potatoes if I stand in the frontline ;)
Hayato Ken |
Yeah go to the advice forum and get advice from people who don´t read stuff^^
Mage Armor has a range of touch, not personal, so it can very well be cast on anyone by anyone who is able to cast it.
Something i can really recommend when coming here to build characters is ask "why". Why is something good or not, when is something good or not.
Then go take an actual look at all the stuff and read it.
Because else you won´t be any wiser than before, you will stop the game because you don´t know your character and how things work, what can suck the fun out for you and others.
Also, in doubt, talk with your GM, don´t argue.
Albion, The Eye |
And just because Hayato Ken pointed out, and we are looking at a Dex build, what about this guy? :D
Half-orc rogue (unchained, vicious opportunist, acrobat) 3/warpriest (sacred fist) of Ragathiel 1 (Pathfinder RPG Advanced Class Guide 60, 130, Pathfinder RPG Advanced Player's Guide 132, Pathfinder Unchained 20)
LG Medium humanoid (human, orc)
Init +5; Senses darkvision 60 ft.; Perception +10
--------------------
Defense
--------------------
AC 18, touch 18, flat-footed 13 (+5 Dex, +3 untyped bonus)
hp 36 (4d8+13)
Fort +7, Ref +10, Will +8
Defensive Abilities evasion
--------------------
Offense
--------------------
Speed 30 ft.
Melee unarmed strike +7 (1d6+7) or
. . unarmed strike flurry of blows +5/+5 (1d6+7)
Special Attacks blessings 3/day, opportunities applenty +4, sneak attack (unchained) +2d6
Warpriest (Sacred Fist) Spells Prepared (CL 1st; concentration +4)
--------------------
Statistics
--------------------
Str 13, Dex 20, Con 14, Int 12, Wis 16, Cha 8
Base Atk +2; CMB +3 (+2 awesome blow, +2 bull rush, +2 bypass armor, +2 corps a corps, +2 create opening, +2 dirty trick, +2 disarm, +2 drag, +2 enemy cover, +2 feint, +2 garrote opponent, +2 grapple, +2 hinder natural attack, +2 hinder special ability, +2 joint strike, +2 overrun, +2 paralyze opponent, +2 parry attack, +2 pull, +2 push, +2 reposition, +2 rope-a-dope, +2 sacrificial critical, +2 sap, +2 scar opponent, +2 steal, +2 sunder, +2 trip); CMD 21
Feats Improved Unarmed Strike, Piranha Strike, Toughness, Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus (unarmed strike)
Traits fate's favored, pragmatic activator
Skills Acrobatics +14, Climb +5, Fly +7, Intimidate +8, Knowledge (religion) +8, Perception +10, Stealth +12, Survival +7, Swim +5, Use Magic Device +8; Racial Modifiers +2 Intimidate, second chance
Languages Common, Orc
SQ blessings (destruction: destructive attacks, heart of carnage, good: battle companion, holy strike), flurry of blows, orc blood, rogue talent (combat trick)
Other Gear belt of incredible dexterity +2, 150 gp
--------------------
Special Abilities
--------------------
Blessings (3/day) (Su) Pool of power used to activate Blessing abilities.
Darkvision (60 feet) You can see in the dark (black and white only).
Evasion (Ex) If succeed on Reflex save for half dam, take none instead.
Flurry of Blows+0/+0 (Su) You can make a flurry of blows, as the monk.
Improved Unarmed Strike Unarmed strikes don't cause attacks of opportunity, and can be lethal.
Opportunities Applenty +4 (Ex) +4 damage if you flank your target, your target is flat-footed, or your target has a detrimental condition.
Orc Blood Half-orcs count as both humans and orcs for any effect related to race.
Piranha Strike +2/-1 You can subtract from your attack roll to add to your damage with light weapons.
Second Chance (1/day) (Ex) Reroll failed Acrobatics, Climb or Fly checks at -5.
Sneak Attack (Unchained) +2d6 Attacks deal extra dam if flank foe or if foe is flat-footed.
I'm still fuzzy with the Unchained + Archetype mix but... This guy isn't really a Warpriest yet, right? :D
Porridge |
Mage Armor has a range of touch, not personal, so it can very well be cast on anyone by anyone who is able to cast it.
Right you are. Don't know how I missed that. :P
Marcus Steelfeather |
In any case, here is what makes me balk on your build idea:
S:10 D:17+2+1 C:14 I:11 W:16 Ch:7 (stats at level 4)I guess I am too picky about some things, and STR10 won't allow me to carry anything at all :P
No problem, after all, it's your character, you need to feel confortable playing with it. For me there isn't a thing like "too picky".
Another favorable stat array is:
S:12 D:17+2+1 C:14 I:12 W:14 Ch:8
This build removes 1 from AC and Will rolls, but it's not really a big deal. Note that you will need more 2 points in wisdom later on for spells.
As for the brawler:- I was going with a more balanced stat spread, which gives me 20 skill points at level 4;
- 38HP (no big difference there)
- Martial Flexibility (Isn't this just an amazing win?)
I personally don't like Martial Flexibility. In this dip it's a move action for a feat you don't have but meet the prerequisites, and you can use it 4 times/day. It's similar to Paragon Surge, but you can change the feat when you use it later that day. But thats a personal opinion, I know that some people can pull really good feats from Martial Flexibility.
1 - To hit and damage are similar, the STR build pulling slightly ahead, but more definitively at level 5 when I take Dragon Ferocity. Would you agree?
2 - AC is better for the Brawler by two points (if we add Mage Armor to the equation, things change of course);
3 - I'm going to say the saves are equivalent;
4 - The brawler allows a more balanced stat spread, and thus more skills, and less dumping (STR and CHA in your case);
5 - Your build is WAY more mobile, which is something I like a LOT;
6 - Your build depends a LOT on gear, and this worries me - without an Agile AoMF things plumet real fast as far as damage is concerned, even with Piranha Strike (do you agree?). Would this be a deal breaker if I told you there are no magic-marts available? ;)
1 & 2 & 3 & 5 - Agreed. See my final observation at the end of the post about this.
4 - I don't see str 10 as being really a problem(Cha 7 is). If you won't use any armor or weapons a masterwork backpack can really do the job here.6 - The magic items are really good, but aside from the agile AoMF and the big 6(wich I personally hate), there's nothing really too important to get(maybe a monk robe).
Sacred fist and monk levels do not stack for IUS damage. There's nothing that says they stack so they don't. You have two separate progressions of US damage.
Yes, my mistake, unarmed damage won't stack. Wich will put you 2 lvls of unarmed damage behind(until you get a monk robe).
But the AC bonus stacks, because it specified that the AC bonus stack. If you get Monk + Sacred fist, tell your GM that you are using the AC Bonus from the Monk list and the sacred fist levels for stacks, because it's an (Ex) ability for the monk, the sacred fist use AC Bonus as a (Su) ability.
To finish my opinion, it's just a matter of taste. You can go armored warpriest + brawler lvls and get more benefits in the AC damage area in the beggining, but you'll have some trouble in the mobility. 3 lvls of Unchained rogue is a trap(you'll lose up to 3 caster lvls, or 1 with Magical Knack), unless your game is really low with magic items.
Imbicatus |
As the GM, the game is not particularly low on magic items, they just don't have a lot of control over which items they have.
Well, if they don't have access to the Big Six or automatic bonus progression, they will start to lag behind the expected power level of the game beginning at level 5 or so and falling more and more behind as they level up.
Magic Weapon, Magic Armor, Amulet of Natural Armor, Cloak of Resistance, a Ring of Protection, and a primary stat belt/headband are assumed by the CR system.