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One of my players tried playing one and complained about the spell list and lack of options. He traded the character out for a new one. So, in a new game I decided to tackle one and see how it is.
I have to agree. They have so much potential, but I feel that they are not nearly as fleshed out as the other classes. Some more spells that only they could cast would be nice. Or if you want them relying hex, some more choices.
And all the classes, when they reach 20 get this cool thing that happens. Witches? Not so much... doesn't measure up to the other classes at all.
So Paizo, will they be getting any love any time soon?
usually these get derailed with people pointing out that there are a few very powerful witch builds. :\
I'd agree though, that witches need far more exciting, thematic hexes - or stuff that happens as they grow. a winter witch can be stunning in how ice-themed they are, but a plant witch has like... nothing...
Design Manager
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Players don't love witches, yo.
In all seriousness, it does seem to be one of the more underserved classes in Pathfinder. I think there's some solid 3pp options for expanding witches though; if I recall correctly, Flying Pincushion Games has a Witch entry in their "Into the Breach" product line that has some flavorful and well-balanced options.
7th level spell list and above seem particularly thin.
Would also like to see new hexes.
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The thing that jumps out at me is that their Hex options for helping allies (Aura of Purity, Fortune + Cackle(*), Healing, etc) aren't as well-developed as their options for ruining somebody's day (Misfortune + Cackle + Evil Eye + Ill Omen spell, etc, plus Accursed Hex feat and/or Hex Vulnerability spell(**) if necessary).
(*)If you have to keep cackling madly like a crazed chicken, you will likely suffer the fate of Sir Robin's Minstrels at the hands of the rest of your party. Why couldn't Witches get the option for the flavor of the Shaman's Chant Hex that acts as a complete superset of Cackle?
(**)Hex vulnerability seems awfully powerful for a 1st level spell, even after the recent reduction in scope. It should be at least a 2nd level spell, or maybe even of ranked level to enable use with higher level Hex effects.
Some archetypes do ameliorate this problem, but only partially. In addition, the Scarred Witch Doctor nerf did indeed nerf gish builds, but actually made otherwise conventional Half-Orc Scarred Witch Doctors overpowered -- did the developers forget that Half-Orcs can put that +2 anywhere? Or is it just inconceivable to have a Witch that can't spell? And while we're at it, we need a Sorcerous Witch archetype that is different from the Ley Line Guardian. And the quasi-Witch creatures/races (Changelings, etc) have the kernel of great backstory but are most sorely neglected.
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Everyone gets love, Hags just have to pay for it.
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I agree that witches need more hexes, especially ones themed on elements, concepts, etc. that would fit the various patrons out there. Stuff like fire, plant, light, shadow, time, space, weather, etc.
Players don't love witches, yo.
In all seriousness, it does seem to be one of the more underserved classes in Pathfinder. I think there's some solid 3pp options for expanding witches though; if I recall correctly, Flying Pincushion Games has a Witch entry in their "Into the Breach" product line that has some flavorful and well-balanced options.
The archetype I remember most vividly from that book did not get spells till either 4th or 5th level (then proceeded normally), but got an ability similar to a rage that also gave them Eidolon evolutions while the raged. I've always wanted to try that one out. Because being a raging hex monster sounds lovely.
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I get more than enough loving.
...wait.
Indeed... phrasing.
It would be nice if the witch had better options for party buffing/support. I built my wife's witch (she "helps" with our Sunday noob crew) as a hedge witch after a few different iterations, and her healing/support capability seems to be lacking. She does the "poor will save creatures have no chance" very well, but once/day cure moderate wounds per player seems a bit weak, and fortune only goes so far. The ability to "lose" a spell for a cure equivalent ala the cleric is nice, too, but there still seems to be a lack of support capability.
I agree that witches need more hexes, especially ones themed on elements, concepts, etc. that would fit the various patrons out there. Stuff like fire, plant, light, shadow, time, space, weather, etc.
This would be awesome. Since I am the DM I have tailored some things to fit her patron. A few extra spells and such. But Hexes for specific patrons would be cool, or that change depending on your patron. Even a few more patrons ideas. Not that they are hard to come up with yourself.
And someone mentioned clerics. I agree they too are also unloved. I play them, a lot. No one else ever wants to so I do. Back in DnD I would get so made at the lack of cleric prestige classes, there were some, they stunk. I do love oracles as an option to spice things up. But, becoming a healbot during battles is sadly boring. I make up for it with fun character ideas.
It would be nice if the witch had better options for party buffing/support. I built my wife's witch (she "helps" with our Sunday noob crew) as a hedge witch after a few different iterations, and her healing/support capability seems to be lacking. She does the "poor will save creatures have no chance" very well, but once/day cure moderate wounds per player seems a bit weak, and fortune only goes so far. The ability to "lose" a spell for a cure equivalent ala the cleric is nice, too, but there still seems to be a lack of support capability.
Note that the hex channeler archetype is compatible with the hedge witch archetype (both can be taken by the same character). Channeling positive energy can provide some additional healing (plus, the hex channeler can take Turn Undead and other channeling feats*); it's not going to compete with a channeling-focused cleric (or a life oracle), but it's a nice additional healing resource.
Of course, hex channeler is also compatible with gravewalker, which can make for a nasty necromancy-focused character.
I will admit that some of the other witch archetype options are kind of meh, except for very specific campaigns/concepts.
*- One thing to remember, since the hex channeler has to invest hex choices to increase channeling dice, is that Turn Undead is based on level in Pathfinder (which does advance automatically) and not the number of dice. Also, mage armor is a force effect, so a more combat-focused hex channeler could take Channeling Force instead of Arcane Strike (possibly for a gun-using witch to target touch AC?).
She started out hex channeler, actually. Sacrificing hexes for healing dice was a non-starter. Flexibility doesn't necessarily mean "better ways to heal," IMO.
Hopefully there will be some hex updates in future publications (I don't typically allow 3rd party, so I don't know what exists there). I
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(**)Hex vulnerability seems awfully powerful for a 1st level spell, even after the recent reduction in scope. It should be at least a 2nd level spell, or maybe even of ranked level to enable use with higher level Hex effects.
Really? I think save negates, heeds spell resistance, and wastes a standard action are enough downsides. Plus, it's kinda unnecessary with the Accursed Hex feat.
did the developers forget that Half-Orcs can put that +2 anywhere?
Quite frankly, you could ask the same question regarding pre-change SWD. More HP than anyone exept a raging Barbarian, crazy high Fortitude save (plus good Will save from the class and possible +2 to all saves from Sacred Tattoo+Fate's Favored), and even an activatable bonus to natural armor makes for some crazy defense stats for a full caster! And all that for the meager cost of one hex and the ability to not choose your race, with no nerf at all in the casting department. In fact, it's even easier to have a high casting stat, because you can focus more of both your money and your point buy on your casting stat (and can further increase it with spells like Form of the Dragon).
I think the main problem the Witch has is the class name - the writers seem to value flavor over player compatibility. That's something you can see all over the place (cf. the Magical Child-thread for an example), but the Witch gets hit especially hard because in traditional fictions, witches are antagonists. There are oh so many hexes and spells on the spell list thay simply scream "this is for eeeevil NPCs!" (like Blight, Child-Scent, Nails, Hoarfrost, Infected Wounds, and Nightmares), plus a bunch more that are more flavor than everything (including the whole spell-in-a-hex bunch like Weather Controll). I mean, sure, Poison Steep lets you reenact the whole Snow White and the Poisonous Apple thing, but that doesn't really say "PC Class Ability" now, does it?
I think the class really needs less Brothers Grimm and more J.K. Rowling.
(*)If you have to keep cackling madly like a crazed chicken, you will likely suffer the fate of Sir Robin's Minstrels at the hands of the rest of your party.
Things I'm no longer allowed to do in an RPG #3524: Playing the Techno Chicken song every time my Witch cackles.
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I find the biggest issue with the Witch is that some Hexes are poorly designed, ranging from worthless to too good with very little in between.
Examples:
Why would you bother with Agony (which gives the target a save each turn), when you can use Ice Tomb?
Why bother with Harrowing Curse or Waxen Image when you can split Misfortune or Slumber and not rely on a random card draw, an attack roll and a save each round? The DC of a Major Hex is the same as a regular one after all.
Aura of Purity seems like a great idea until you realize it takes a standard to activate so if you get caught by a Stinking Cloud, you can't even activate it to protect yourself and your allies.
Fortune only works on a Single roll each round, and unless you Cackle it, thats pretty much it.
Then you have a whole plethora of Hexes that take a day to tick, or a minute, or an hour (I'm looking at you Hoarfrost, Infected Wound and company). Beast Of Ill-Omen?
I love the Witch for designing NPCs but I feel that unless you purposely gimp yourself as a Player, there aren't that many interesting Hex choices. I understand that not every option needs to be amazing, but I would like if the options were interesting and usable.
They follow the problem the Rogue sort of has, where the breakpoint for Talent Levels was 1-9 and then 10-20, as opposed to the Barbarian, Magus, Alchemist and Oracle who have talents that have breakpoints at 4, 6, 8, 10, 12 etc, allowing for less rigid design.
That being said, there are some really fun ones. I love Hag's Eye and Animal Skin for instance, for all the gripe I give Aura of Purity its pretty cool when it does work.
Reign Of Winter Book 5 Spoiler
Mustard Gas? Yeah right! Lets just walk on right through.
There is so much interesting design space and its a little sad honestly that the Witch has been put by the wayside. Though I can't speak for Blood Hexes from Magic Tactics Toolbox, so maybe its unfounded nowadays.
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I think the class really needs less Brothers Grimm and more J.K. Rowling....
The class needs Rowling like I need a sucking chest-wound.
What they need is to embrace more aspects of benign folkloric magic from the wider tradition-
Not Rowling, but Anaya, Achebe, Hamilton's easily digested fictional takes on folk magic- "John and the Devil's Daughter," "The People Could Fly," Bless Me, Ultima, Things Fall Apart, all have richer options.
And then you have things like the tales of the Inupiaq prophet Manilaaq, Qayaq the Magical Traveler, a sufficiently respectful take on things like the Lakota Sun Dance...
The Witch needs to get more thoroughly out of Europe (I am aware that they have several options with other sources already, but they could and should go farther afield).
I wonder if any of the upcoming horror themed pubs will contain any witch love?
The blood hexes in Magic Tactics are all offensive, btw.
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(**)Hex vulnerability seems awfully powerful for a 1st level spell, even after the recent reduction in scope. It should be at least a 2nd level spell, or maybe even of ranked level to enable use with higher level Hex effects.Really? I think save negates, heeds spell resistance, and wastes a standard action are enough downsides. Plus, it's kinda unnecessary with the Accursed Hex feat.
Not totally unnecessary -- if you absolutely have to put a Hex on something that's highly resistant, Accursed Hex only gives you 1 extra shot, whereas Hex Vulnerability is limited only by your spells per day, action economy, and whatever the target is trying to do to you in the meantime. The downsides may outweigh the benefits at low levels, but at high levels the benefits start getting a lot better, because they scale with the Hex, even though the spell stays the same level. That is I why I mentioned the possibility of making it a ranked spell -- something like Hex Vulnerability I gets you Hex effects up to 5th level; Hex Vulnerability II gets you Hex effects up to 10th level; Hex Vulnerability III gets you Hex and Major Hex effects up to 15th level; Hex Vulnerability IV gets you Hex and Major Hex effects up to 20th level; Hex Vulnerability V gets you Hex, Major Hex, and Grand Hex effects up to 25th level. actually might want it finger-grained than that, because this doesn't divide up evenly between spell levels and Hex categories.
did the developers forget that Half-Orcs can put that +2 anywhere?Quite frankly, you could ask the same question regarding pre-change SWD. More HP than anyone exept a raging Barbarian, crazy high Fortitude save (plus good Will save from the class and possible +2 to all saves from Sacred Tattoo+Fate's Favored), and even an activatable bonus to natural armor makes for some crazy defense stats for a full caster! And all that for the meager cost of one hex and the ability to not choose your race, with no nerf at all in the casting department. In fact, it's even easier to have a high casting stat, because you can focus more of both your money and your point buy on your casting stat (and can further increase it with spells like Form of the Dragon).
I understand and agree with that, but the thing is that if the developers really felt the need to nerf the archetype, they didn't do a very good job. At least with pre-Errata Scarred Witch Doctor, both Orc and Half-Orc could get some really good builds out of it. Now Orc can at best be okay, while Half-Orc gets even better. Not only does the Half-Orc get to put +2 on their casting stat AND have it count as 2 higher for class abilities (which pre-Errata didn't have), but since that casting stat is moved to Intelligence, they get to be skill monkeys as good as Wizard while having an effective +2 (for class abilitoes) on top of the +2 that they put there. Went from the frying pan (if the frying pan was even a problem) into the fire.
I think the main problem the Witch has is the class name - the writers seem to value flavor over player compatibility. That's something you can see all over the place (cf. the Magical Child-thread for an example), but the Witch gets hit especially hard because in traditional fictions, witches are antagonists. There are oh so many hexes and spells on the spell list thay simply scream "this is for eeeevil NPCs!" (like Blight, Child-Scent, Nails, Hoarfrost, Infected Wounds, and Nightmares), plus a bunch more that are more flavor than everything (including the whole spell-in-a-hex bunch like Weather Controll). I mean, sure, Poison Steep lets you reenact the whole Snow White and the Poisonous Apple thing, but that doesn't really say "PC Class Ability" now, does it?
. . . Except, of course, in Hell's Vengeance . . . .
I think the class really needs less Brothers Grimm and more J.K. Rowling.
Maybe not less Brothers Grimm, but at least add in the J. K. Rowling options.
(*)If you have to keep cackling madly like a crazed chicken, you will likely suffer the fate of Sir Robin's Minstrels at the hands of the rest of your party.Things I'm no longer allowed to do in an RPG #3524: Playing the Techno Chicken song every time my Witch cackles.
Wait, how could NOBODY ELSE Fave this? I have GOT to steal this . . . And now I want to develop a Chickenfolk Race that gets Favored Class Bonuses for doing this . . . .
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This will be the new norm.
@Cole Deschain: The word "witch" is closely assossiated with evil, something that really shows in and hampers the class. This basically comes from the Bible explicitly forbidding the practicing of all kinds of magic; and from the connection of witchcraft and devil worship.
The thing is, that in most settings Pathfinder is played in, there is no Christianity, and the usage of magic and supernatural powers is totally normal. It makes no sense for a witch to be viewed differently than a wizard, sorcerer, cleric or druid. And that's why I was refering to the Harry Potter series, because in it the word "witch" is used as a neutral word - and that is what the class needs.
@UnArcaneElection: If I'm trying to hex "something that's highly resistant", how am I going to stick a level 1 spell that's prevented by spell resistance and/or a will save? If it was a higher level spell, instead of using two standard actions to cast Hex Vulnerability and use a Hex, I could have used one of the ~527 save-or-suck spells on the witch's spell list instead.
In my opinion, the nerf killed the spell.
. . . Except, of course, in Hell's Vengeance . . . .
Wait, in Hell's Vengeance it's ok for PCs to need two hexes (Cauldron and Poison Steep) to poison a gullible, unarmed, lone young girl?
Have to agree with Derklord. If something is going to resist your hexes, a spell that's even easier to save against doesn't seem like it's going to change that.
In fact I'd say it's more the opposite that's true. Hex Vulnerability is best against enemies that will very easily fail the save, but for some reason you want to keep applying certain hexes to. Against tough enemies the +4 to the DC every time you cast a hex and the weak DC on the spell itself make it too unreliable.
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{. . .}
@UnArcaneElection: If I'm trying to hex "something that's highly resistant", how am I going to stick a level 1 spell that's prevented by spell resistance and/or a will save? If it was a higher level spell, instead of using two standard actions to cast Hex Vulnerability and use a Hex, I could have used one of the ~527 save-or-suck spells on the witch's spell list instead.
In my opinion, the nerf killed the spell.
You'd crank it with some combination of Persistent Spell, Heighten Spell, Spell Focus, Piercing Spell, and/or Spell Penetration (not all of these, just whichever ones are easier to come by and more likely to be useful for your other stuff as well). The only equivalent for Hexes is Accursed Hex, so having a spell whose base form is really easy gives the spell-based method a good start.
. . . Except, of course, in Hell's Vengeance . . . .Wait, in Hell's Vengeance it's ok for PCs to need two hexes (Cauldron and Poison Steep) to poison a gullible, unarmed, lone young girl?
Presumably that's just the poster child that you use for testing your newfound evil powers. Then you REALLY use this to go after the Glorious Reclamation and its sympathizers.
apparently Horror Adventures will have a Gingerbread Witch archetype, and it sounds like witches in general might get some nice scary stuff overall.
I was wondering that, MMCJawa. Horror Adventures seems incredibly consistent with witches in general. I'm still looking for non-3PP "witch in a support role" options, however. Their scary stuff options really aren't all that bad as is (IMO), particularly against low-will creatures (ours is in Giantslayer... she drives combat).
So, apart from a couple of new archetypes, did the witch get new new hexes in Horror Adventures? Major and Grand hexes in particular could really do with some increased options. Horror Adventures seems like the perfect opportunity.
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So, apart from a couple of new archetypes, did the witch get new new hexes in Horror Adventures? Major and Grand hexes in particular could really do with some increased options. Horror Adventures seems like the perfect opportunity.
Nope.
The newest Hexes are the awful Blood Hexes.That being said they introduced the Gingerbread Witch and Tatterdemalion (Fabric Witch) in Horror Adventures and the Invoker Witch (not to be confused with the Havocker) in Heroes of Horror. Both replace a chunk of Hexes so its nice. Its a real shame that they didn't introduce new Hexes, there was so much Horror theme we could have played with.
-> forced shapeshifting/polymorphing
-> madness effects
-> hexes that 'summon' phantasmal/shadow creatures (a la Shadow Puppeteer Bard)
-> sewing mouths shut
-> dark rituals and a major version of the Coven Hex
I still think the old Major Hexes just need some tuning up (compare Waxen Image and Retribution to Slumber and Misfortune, available earlier and splittable with the same DC).
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The witch seems fine with strong options since release. Spamable hexes and 9th lvl spells. Ill not get in the way of more options, i just doubt this class really needs it. There is a feat to turn lvl 1 spells into hexes, which has some decent options.
The extra hex feat makes it so new hexes can't be that good since you can have them all.
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The witch seems fine with strong options since release. Spamable hexes and 9th lvl spells. Ill not get in the way of more options, i just doubt this class really needs it. There is a feat to turn lvl 1 spells into hexes, which has some decent options.
The extra hex feat makes it so new hexes can't be that good since you can have them all.
Saves or dies have been done to death, but where are Hexes that allow shadows to grapple someone? A hex that causes a person to randomly trip and fall over? How about a hex that forces someone to forget certain things with a kiss or steal their voice? Hexes that allow someone to 'save' an action and use it later (or alternatively delaying something from happening)? What about a hex that allows the Witch to force someone to stutter on spells and fail the cast?
Then 'good' aligned options can even include hexes that create protective energy bubbles, hexes that make one immune or resistant to a specific ailment (such as diseases, sleep effects, paralysis, etc) for a duration, hexes that allow a witch to use balms and heal people over time, hexes that allow one to summon a minor creature (maybe a la Lesser Planar Binding) to do menial non-combat tasks, a hex thats the reverse of Evil Eye which buffs skills, AC, attack rolls or saves, or even ones that allow you to Commune, a hex to preserve someone from death with a quick Breath of Life (at a cost), or even a hex that allows you to animate small items to clean the house or whatnot.
There is so much design space and I feel its boxed in too much with the pretense of power.
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Maybe witch hexes or an archetype that can inflict corruptions?
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Also why is there no Immortality Hex or a Hex that removes Age Penalties for being a Crone by stealing someone's precious youth? No permanent Threefold Aspects!?
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Does replacing their familiar with a treasure trove that does nothing count as getting some love? Anyone?
Does that mean Witches count as spontaneous casters now?
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Does replacing their familiar with a treasure trove that does nothing count as getting some love? Anyone?
Not nothing! It can cast one spell once per day. Maybe? I'm having trouble figuring out how that spell works.
I don't think Witches are really all that short on powerful or interesting options, though they're arguably a lot less obvious about some things. Ill Omen is astonishingly good, and they have great spells like Confusion or Glitterdust; hexing is certainly potent as a feature. Archetypes like Synergist can add very interesting options as well.
I'm not saying Witches couldn't use more stuff. It just seems like a lot of people who don't like them never really figured out what to do with them beyond the most mundane options.
witches don't have many archetypes for the same reason all 9th level casters have no options or archetypes. they don't really have much to trade out.
witches don't have many archetypes for the same reason all 9th level casters have no options or archetypes. they don't really have much to trade out.
Really not true. Unlike the original full casters (cleric, wizard) a witch archetype has all those hexes to play with; they went somewhere interesting at least with the white-haired witch by trading out all of them, even if it doesn't quite work mechanically. And if you think all full casters lack options or archetypes look at the druid some time.
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The witch seems fine with strong options since release. Spamable hexes and 9th lvl spells. Ill not get in the way of more options, i just doubt this class really needs it. There is a feat to turn lvl 1 spells into hexes, which has some decent options.
The extra hex feat makes it so new hexes can't be that good since you can have them all.
Saves or dies have been done to death, but where are Hexes that allow shadows to grapple someone? A hex that causes a person to randomly trip and fall over? How about a hex that forces someone to forget certain things with a kiss or steal their voice? Hexes that allow someone to 'save' an action and use it later (or alternatively delaying something from happening)? What about a hex that allows the Witch to force someone to stutter on spells and fail the cast?
Then 'good' aligned options can even include hexes that create protective energy bubbles, hexes that make one immune or resistant to a specific ailment (such as diseases, sleep effects, paralysis, etc) for a duration, hexes that allow a witch to use balms and heal people over time, hexes that allow one to summon a minor creature (maybe a la Lesser Planar Binding) to do menial non-combat tasks, a hex thats the reverse of Evil Eye which buffs skills, AC, attack rolls or saves, or even ones that allow you to Commune, a hex to preserve someone from death with a quick Breath of Life (at a cost), or even a hex that allows you to animate small items to clean the house or whatnot.
There is so much design space and I feel its boxed in too much with the pretense of power.
Many of the effects can already be done (hair for grappling, healing/ cauldron/ channel energy as balms), or are a first level spell (unseen servant) that you can gain as a hex with a feat. Others were really powerful and just tacking on thoes options as hexes is super powerful. Weaker but flavorful options are complained about on the forum. Seems like the developers are stuck in a lose/lose situation.
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I would love more hexes like those, some that grant resistances/immunities, more healing/curative options, boosting effects, elemental based powers, more curse effects, more natural attacks, shapeshifting, protective effects, more gaze effects, etc.
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Inspired by this thread, I wrote a few witch hexes. What do you think?
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Inspired by this thread, I wrote a few witch hexes. What do you think?
These look pretty neat. :)