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my question is. Is a arcanist a spontaneous caster i.e. do they qualify for the dragon disciple prestige class?
No, they do not. DD doesn't care about spontaneous casting.
"Spellcasting: Ability to cast 1st-level arcane spells without preparation. If the character has sorcerer levels, he must have the draconic bloodline. If the character gains levels of sorcerer after taking this class, he must take the draconic bloodline."
A Spell Specialist arcanist could progress as a DD though.
Would I personally allow it?
Yes. Especially with certain archetypes (Blood Arcanist, Spell Specialist, ect.)
Are Arcanists Spontaneous?
No, because they have to prepare their spells.
Um... without preparation means spontaneous casting.
Not quite, in game terms.
Clerics and druids prepare spells, but can spontaneously cast cure/inflict and summon nature's ally spells. Similarly, an arcanist prepares their "spells known" for the day and can spontaneously cast them using their spell slots, but that does not count as "casting arcane spells without preparation."
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Um... without preparation means spontaneous casting.Not quite, in game terms.
Clerics and druids prepare spells, but can spontaneously cast cure/inflict and summon nature's ally spells. Similarly, an arcanist prepares their "spells known" for the day and can spontaneously cast them using their spell slots, but that does not count as "casting arcane spells without preparation."
Because they're not Spontaneous casters, and they don't cast spells spontaneously and nothing in their class ability says anything about casting spontaneously.
They use spell slots, that's the difference.
without preparation = spontaneous casting
uses spell slots =/= spontaneous casting
Um... without preparation means spontaneous casting.Not quite, in game terms.
Clerics and druids prepare spells, but can spontaneously cast cure/inflict and summon nature's ally spells. Similarly, an arcanist prepares their "spells known" for the day and can spontaneously cast them using their spell slots, but that does not count as "casting arcane spells without preparation."
Because they're not Spontaneous casters, and they don't cast spells spontaneously and nothing in their class ability says anything about casting spontaneously.
They use spell slots, that's the difference.
without preparation = spontaneous casting
uses spell slots =/= spontaneous casting
Yes, but the point is that the qualifications for Dragon Disciple have nothing to do with spontaneous casting, but the ability to cast spells without preparation. That's why Bards and Sorcerers qualify, but Wizards and Arcanists do not.
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Yes, but the point is that the qualifications for Dragon Disciple have nothing to do with spontaneous casting, but the ability to cast spells without preparation. That's why Bards and Sorcerers qualify, but Wizards and Arcanists do not.Um... without preparation means spontaneous casting.Not quite, in game terms.
Clerics and druids prepare spells, but can spontaneously cast cure/inflict and summon nature's ally spells. Similarly, an arcanist prepares their "spells known" for the day and can spontaneously cast them using their spell slots, but that does not count as "casting arcane spells without preparation."
Because they're not Spontaneous casters, and they don't cast spells spontaneously and nothing in their class ability says anything about casting spontaneously.
They use spell slots, that's the difference.
without preparation = spontaneous casting
uses spell slots =/= spontaneous casting
And I'm saying it does since without preparation means the same thing as spontaneous casting.
Note that I'm not disagreeing with you about what classes can and cannot take DD, just on what spontaneous casting and without preparation are.
my question is. Is a arcanist a spontaneous caster i.e. do they qualify for the dragon disciple prestige class?
In short.
1.Partially yes. they have some spontaneous casting features but they are not fully spontaneous the way a bard and sorcerer are.
2.No they do not for reasons stated before.
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They use spell slots, that's the difference.
without preparation = spontaneous casting
uses spell slots =/= spontaneous casting
Well, every spellcasting class uses spell slots. Sorcerers use spell slots to determine how many spells they can cast at each spell level.
The distinction is whether or not you "lock" specific spells into specific spell slots in advance.
Every other class is consistent in this area. Every other class that prepares their spells does so by choosing their spell selection in advance and locking specific spells into specific slots. Some of those classes (cleric, druid) can swap out some of those pre-selected individual spells under certain circumstances, but their ability to spontaneously change prepared spells is a special ability written up separately from their general spellcasting ability.
The Arcanist mixes everything up. It is the only class that prepares spells in advance but doesn't lock those spells into specific slots.
The larger problem is that the distinction between "spontaneous' and "prepared" spellcasters is more implied than defined by the rules, but up until the Advanced Class Guide was published it didn't really matter because every class fell pretty clearly into one category or the other. So when older prestige classes like Dragon Disciple talk about "spontaenous" spellcasters it makes assumptions about a difference that used to be there 100% of the time, but now is only there 90% of the time. This one class falls into both categories.
There have been multiple threads and FAQ requests, but I don't believe there has ever been a definitive answer given.
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They use spell slots, that's the difference.
without preparation = spontaneous casting
uses spell slots =/= spontaneous casting
Well, every spellcasting class uses spell slots. Sorcerers use spell slots to determine how many spells they can cast at each spell level.
The distinction is whether or not you "lock" specific spells into specific spell slots in advance.
Every other class is consistent in this area. Every other class that prepares their spells does so by choosing their spell selection in advance and locking specific spells into specific slots. Some of those classes (cleric, druid) can swap out some of those pre-selected individual spells under certain circumstances, but their ability to spontaneously change prepared spells is a special ability written up separately from their general spellcasting ability.
The Arcanist mixes everything up. It is the only class that prepares spells in advance but doesn't lock those spells into specific slots.
The larger problem is that the distinction between "spontaneous' and "prepared" spellcasters is more implied than defined by the rules, but up until the Advanced Class Guide was published it didn't really matter because every class fell pretty clearly into one category or the other. So when older prestige classes like Dragon Disciple talk about "spontaenous" spellcasters it makes assumptions about a difference that used to be there 100% of the time, but now is only there 90% of the time. This one class falls into both categories.
There have been multiple threads and FAQ requests, but I don't believe there has ever been a definitive answer given.
Hmm, point.
Went back and read over it, both Wizard and Sorcerer use the term Spells Per Day, and it's only later things that actually use the term Spell Slots. Interesting.
To put my spin on it, if an Arcanist doesn't prepare spells for the day, she cannot cast spells. Thus, she casts spell with preparation.
An arcanist must choose and prepare her spells ahead of time by getting 8 hours of sleep and spending 1 hour studying her spellbook. While studying, the arcanist decides what spells to prepare and refreshes her available spell slots for the day.
To support what Azten said.
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Even sorcerers have to spend 15 minutes (after 8 hours of rest) to regain their spells. That's a form of 'preparation'... but obviously not the kind the DD requirements are referring to.
The question then becomes whether an Arcanist's ability to choose a set of spells which they can spontaneously cast is closer to the Sorcerer model or the Wizard model. As they need to select the spells and use a spellbook I'd put it closer to Wizards and thus say they don't qualify for DD.
That said, tt might be reasonable to allow an Arcanist with the Blood Arcanist archetype and the Draconic bloodline to qualify for Dragon Disciple. Their spellcasting occupies a unique 'semi spontaneous' category which blends aspects of the two more common types together. So adding in the draconic bloodline might be a reasonable excuse to 'bridge the gap'.
Even sorcerers have to spend 15 minutes (after 8 hours of rest) to regain their spells. That's a form of 'preparation'... but obviously not the kind the DD requirements are referring to.
That's not even close to the same thing.
Sorcerers and bards cast arcane spells, but they do not use spellbooks or prepare spells. Their class level limits the number of spells she can cast (see these class descriptions). Her high Charisma score might allow her to cast a few extra spells. A member of either class must have a Charisma score of at least 10 + the spell's level to cast the spell.Daily Readying of Spells
Each day, sorcerers and bards must focus their minds on the task of casting their spells. A sorcerer or bard needs 8 hours of rest (just like a wizard), after which she spends 15 minutes concentrating. (A bard must sing, recite, or play an instrument of some kind while concentrating.) During this period, the sorcerer or bard readies her mind to cast her daily allotment of spells. Without such a period to refresh herself, the character she used up the day before.
Regaining spell slots is not the same thing as preparing spells.
The question then becomes whether an Arcanist's ability to choose a set of spells which they can spontaneously cast is closer to the Sorcerer model or the Wizard model. As they need to select the spells and use a spellbook I'd put it closer to Wizards and thus say they don't qualify for DD.
No the question is do they prepare spells. How they cast spells has no bearing on the prerequisites for the class. If the wizard could cast spells without preparing them then the wizard would qualify even if he still had "locked" spell slots.
However at the end of the day we both agree they do not qualify.
That said, tt might be reasonable to allow an Arcanist with the Blood Arcanist archetype and the Draconic bloodline to qualify for Dragon Disciple. Their spellcasting occupies a unique 'semi spontaneous' category which blends aspects of the two more common types together. So adding in the draconic bloodline might be a reasonable excuse to 'bridge the gap'.
Again spontaneousness has nothing to do with it, only the lack of need to prepare spells, but for homebrew rules I fully agree that could be a fine compromise.
As much as I'd love to see Arcanist DDs, these quotes from three spellcasting entries settle it;
A sorcerer casts arcane spells drawn primarily from the sorcerer/wizard spell list. She can cast any spell she knows without preparing it ahead of time.
A wizard casts arcane spells drawn from the sorcerer/wizard spell list. A wizard must choose and prepare his spells ahead of time.
An arcanist casts arcane spells drawn from the sorcerer/wizard spell list. An arcanist must prepare her spells ahead of time, but unlike a wizard, her spells are not expended when they're cast.
No, they do not. DD doesn't care about spontaneous casting.
"Spellcasting: Ability to cast 1st-level arcane spells without preparation. If the character has sorcerer levels, he must have the draconic bloodline. If the character gains levels of sorcerer after taking this class, he must take the draconic bloodline."
A Spell Specialist arcanist could progress as a DD though.
I agree that the Spell Specialist would qualify. And I believe that the White Mage could also.
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As much as I'd love to see Arcanist DDs
I love to see DDs on any class chassis.