The age of the humanoid form: What is the oldest thing of that shape?


Lost Omens Campaign Setting General Discussion


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It is known that within the pathfinder setting there are entities that long predate life as it is known, possessing a menagerie of forms, most of which holding nothing in common with the humanoid form. What I want to ask is this; What is the oldest creature to be humanoid in shape, though not necessarily in type? WIth in the setting as it stands, where could it have come from?

Could there be a qlippoth or a creature of the tapestry somewhere that by chance held that form, and if so would it hold some association with or responsibility for that structure's presence elsewhere? (It is not a matter of why they look like us, but rather.. why do we look like them?)
Was it something instead first tried when the fey were created?
Something made up by the gods, or even just a shape that one deity took and it caught on?


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Depending on which of the creation myths you believe, the axiomites (i.e., the original foes of the proteans, after the irruption of the Abyss/qlippoths) are pretty strong contenders.

The titans and/or genies, perhaps? The fey might be in the running, as well.


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I'd guess the Titans are the ones you're looking for.

Dark Archive

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I'd say it's the Manasaputras. They're generally-humanoid in shape even if they do have extra limbs and faces, and the greatest of them come from a prior iteration of the multiverse, reincarnating into this one after the last one ended. This isn't the most helpful answer as to where the form first came from, since we don't know much at all about prior iterations of the multiverse, but I think they still qualify as the general answer.

Scarab Sages

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Lord Gadigan wrote:
I'd say it's the Manasaputras. They're generally-humanoid in shape even if they do have extra limbs and faces, and the greatest of them come from a prior iteration of the multiverse, reincarnating into this one after the last one ended. This isn't the most helpful answer as to where the form first came from, since we don't know much at all about prior iterations of the multiverse, but I think they still qualify as the general answer.

"I've been hanging around here in the shop since closing time last night" is pretty hard to beat, alright.


I'm Hiding In Your Closet wrote:
Lord Gadigan wrote:
I'd say it's the Manasaputras. They're generally-humanoid in shape even if they do have extra limbs and faces, and the greatest of them come from a prior iteration of the multiverse, reincarnating into this one after the last one ended. This isn't the most helpful answer as to where the form first came from, since we don't know much at all about prior iterations of the multiverse, but I think they still qualify as the general answer.
"I've been hanging around here in the shop since closing time last night" is pretty hard to beat, alright.

Im gonna have to agree with that one. Assuming their form hasn't changed, it is one hard to beat.

At this point they would be the safest bet, short of other things coming out. Qlippoth came from the outside, so its possible they predate the current version of the multiverse, but we haven't seen a humanoid form among them.

Quote:
The qlippoth do not possess in their forms anything approximating the human shape except by cosmic fluke or sinister mockery

My interpretation of this passage is that the humanoid form exists among them, but when it does they are mocking life, or the cause is completely independent of life.

I invoked the Great Old Ones and Outer Gods earlier, but I think they (mostly atleast) hail from the current version of the mutliverse, but I could be wrong. Some do hold approximations of the humanoid form, at least in their avatars, so it was worth noting.

Im fairly certain, though I could be wrong, that the first world was created early in the current mutliverse. Then again.. maybe it could be a surviving remnant of the previous multiverse. An entire plane that survived the reset button. Who knows?


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Shouldn't we be calling it the manusuptran form, rather than the humanoid form? Or is humanity really that narcissistic?

(Yes)


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Ventnor wrote:

Shouldn't we be calling it the manusuptran form, rather than the humanoid form? Or is humanity really that narcissistic?

(Yes)

I like how you think.


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Well, while none of the Outer gods have anything resembling a humanoid (or even Euclidean) shape, both Cthulhu and Hastur are definitely 2 legs, 2 arms, upright body with 1 head shaped. Though, it begs the question of whether or not the Dark Tapestry gods are from this multiverse or not. Probably have to wait until Strange Aeons for that answer.

But yeah, otherwise hard to beat the Manasaputra.


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A number of Pathfinder angels (who are pretty much just humans with wings) easily predate actual human life.

The dragons and the aboleths and whatnot were probably pretty weirded out when wingless angels started showing up in their territories.


Aboleths created humans IIRC, they were an experiment of the aboleths.

Dark Archive

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Aboleths say that, but I don't believe it's been confirmed. The aboleths are responsible for raising the Azlanti civilization up from barbarism, but I don't believe it's been shown that they are telling the truth about creating humans.


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Myrryr wrote:
Aboleths created humans IIRC, they were an experiment of the aboleths.

How does that explain human life on Earth? Considering the Azlanti fell in 8,088 BC and the first Homo Sapiens Sapien was born on earth anywhere between 197,984 BC and 187,984 BC, if the Azlanti were created by Aboleths and somehow humans migrated to Earth from there, Azlant would have been around for nearly 100,000 years!

Let's not forget that HP Lovecraft stuff happened. According to "At the Mountains of Madness," humans evolved on Earth from the Great Old Ones' (Elder Things) leftover life-creation experiments, which would put the origin of human life on Earth, which means they would have had to migrate to Golarion at some point.


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Mavrickindigo wrote:
Myrryr wrote:
Aboleths created humans IIRC, they were an experiment of the aboleths.

How does that explain human life on Earth? Considering the Azlanti fell in 8,088 BC and the first Homo Sapiens Sapien was born on earth anywhere between 197,984 BC and 187,984 BC, if the Azlanti were created by Aboleths and somehow humans migrated to Earth from there, Azlant would have been around for nearly 100,000 years!

Let's not forget that HP Lovecraft stuff happened. According to "At the Mountains of Madness," humans evolved on Earth from the Great Old Ones' (Elder Things) leftover life-creation experiments, which would put the origin of human life on Earth, which means they would have had to migrate to Golarion at some point.

I think at that point we are assuming that Human = Human. Then again, maybe Humans are just a curious byproduct of the Dark Tapestry's denizens. They tend to create humans, and those that don't quickly die out tend to rebel on some level and forget.


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Well, according to Reign of Winter, the Russians and Baba Yaga herself have the same human racial traits as humans from Golarion. Theynare at least mechanically the same as each other.


Mavrickindigo wrote:
Myrryr wrote:
Aboleths created humans IIRC, they were an experiment of the aboleths.
How does that explain human life on Earth?

This might be an issue for modern real life science, but as Game Masters we don't need to address the question unless the PC's actually develop a valid method of asking.


Part One
Part Two
Part Three

:)


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Mavrickindigo wrote:


Let's not forget that HP Lovecraft stuff happened. According to "At the Mountains of Madness," humans evolved on Earth from the Great Old Ones' (Elder Things) leftover life-creation experiments, which would put the origin of human life on Earth, which means they would have had to migrate to Golarion at some point.

The leftover life creations didn't create man directly, but rather seeded the planet with life. So think less cave men and more Cambrian explosion.


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MMCJawa wrote:
Mavrickindigo wrote:
Let's not forget that HP Lovecraft stuff happened. According to "At the Mountains of Madness," humans evolved on Earth from the Great Old Ones' (Elder Things) leftover life-creation experiments, which would put the origin of human life on Earth, which means they would have had to migrate to Golarion at some point.
The leftover life creations didn't create man directly, but rather seeded the planet with life. So think less cave men and more Cambrian explosion.

Of course, despite the presence of some Mythos stuff, I don't think it's canon that all Lovecraft stories are strictly canon.

Of course, Elder Thing derived or not, there's plenty of real evidence of human origin on Earth.

The simplest explanation to connect that to Golarion is to assume that somehow the Aboleths took humans from Earth to experiment with to create the Azlanti.

Or we can just assume the usual sf/fantasy parallel evolution thing. All sorts of non-human animals also common between Earth & Golarion, from many different parts of Earth's timeline. Probably best not to look to closely. :)

Scarab Sages

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Not to mention all the bears, whales, horses, bison, camels, and other mundane animals, megafauna and dinosaurs that is still extant on Golarion that went extinct on Earth, and who knows whats else.

The main differences in the worlds is that Golaion is the prison for Rovagug, and Earth is the resting place of Cthulhu, and quite a bit more anti-magic zones on Earth.


Tacticslion wrote:

Part One

Part Two
Part Three

:)

My thoughts on the matter exactly. There's a third party adventure path called Rise of the Annunnaki, which while not addressing the question of humans on Earth and Golarion, it puts forth that the Elohim are a splinter sect of the Annunnaki who embraced druidic magic as opposed to technology.

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