Why I think the current FAQ / Errata cycle is bad for the health of the game and how to fix it.


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The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

Create Mr. Pitt wrote:
they should have been fixed not eviscerated.

My fixed is your eviscerated.


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James Risner wrote:
Create Mr. Pitt wrote:
they should have been fixed not eviscerated.
My fixed is your eviscerated.

I am sure that would have disagreements over a lot of the game, but since I don't think a lot of the items should have been touched in the first place there's definitely a compromise between whatever you consider reasonable and leaving it as is. Otherwise just remove the items from the game, I don't want to have to sit and stare at item called jingasa of the fortunate soldier that doesn't give a luck bonus because people didn't like that it was a popular item.

Your fixed is my eviscerated. There were many better compromises including price changes or slight nerfs that would have made more sense. Also the purpose of errata is not to make people who prefer weaker items happy, it's to fix mistakes.


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The "woe" crowd here has an interesting situation. First, they say that a +1 luck bonus to AC is not overpowered, not dangerous to the game, there are better things out there, etc. Then they try to convince us that the jingasa is now "eviscerated" now that it doesn't have the luck bonus to AC. Well, which is it? Is it overpowered and a problem (and if so, why protest the errata?) or is it nothing special (and if so, why whine that it is gone?)?


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Sissyl wrote:
The "woe" crowd here has an interesting situation. First, they say that a +1 luck bonus to AC is not overpowered, not dangerous to the game, there are better things out there, etc. Then they try to convince us that the jingasa is now "eviscerated" now that it doesn't have the luck bonus to AC. Well, which is it? Is it overpowered and a problem (and if so, why protest the errata?) or is it nothing special (and if so, why whine that it is gone?)?

If they just removed the luck bonus, that would be one thing. The jingasa's crit negation ability now only functions once ever. That along with the removal of the luck bonus is the evisceration. It makes the jingasa a glorified ring of protection.

Silver Crusade

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Knight Magenta wrote:
Sissyl wrote:
The "woe" crowd here has an interesting situation. First, they say that a +1 luck bonus to AC is not overpowered, not dangerous to the game, there are better things out there, etc. Then they try to convince us that the jingasa is now "eviscerated" now that it doesn't have the luck bonus to AC. Well, which is it? Is it overpowered and a problem (and if so, why protest the errata?) or is it nothing special (and if so, why whine that it is gone?)?
If they just removed the luck bonus, that would be one thing. The jingasa's crit negation ability now only functions once ever. That along with the removal of the luck bonus is the evisceration. It makes the jingasa a glorified ring of protection.

Ring of Protection doesn't help all that much vs an Antipaladin of Urgathoa with a Scythe...


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Neither does the new Jingasa. Because you probably used it on the greataxe wielding cyclops a few levels back.

Silver Crusade

Sundakan wrote:
Neither does the new Jingasa. Because you probably used it on the greataxe wielding cyclops a few levels back.

*shrugs*

Sell the old one, buy the new one. Do the same thing with scrolls and potions and other 1 use Wondrous Items.


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Rysky wrote:
Sundakan wrote:
Neither does the new Jingasa. Because you probably used it on the greataxe wielding cyclops a few levels back.

*shrugs*

Sell the old one, buy the new one. Do the same thing with scrolls and potions and other 1 use Wondrous Items.

A helmet is a bit of the wrong vehicle for a one-use magic item - a small charm of some sort would be much more fitting. I think a +1 luck bonus to AC would have still made for a much more flavorful item than the jingasa is now. While several of the fixes were, I think, good in coming, the jingasa is really a useless wreck of wrong design now.


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Rysky wrote:
Sundakan wrote:
Neither does the new Jingasa. Because you probably used it on the greataxe wielding cyclops a few levels back.

*shrugs*

Sell the old one, buy the new one. Do the same thing with scrolls and potions and other 1 use Wondrous Items.

You can't be serious. Not the smartest person in the world would buy a single use item item costing 5k.

It has no uses. The deflection bonus is there doing nothing, because unless you don't have a ring, it's just a bonus inflating the price of a useless item.
So right there, you have 2000-2500 Gold of useless Deflection Bonus.
3000 to negate a crit once in your career seems a bit overexpensive. You can't even buy 10 of them.
Can it save you life? Absolutely. So does Breath of Life, Raise dead, which are similarly on the same price range.

Eventually you see a possible Martial item destroyed, while Casters still get their absolutely not broken standard action wishes/stoneskin and many more.

Grand Lodge

Rysky wrote:
Sundakan wrote:
Neither does the new Jingasa. Because you probably used it on the greataxe wielding cyclops a few levels back.

*shrugs*

Sell the old one, buy the new one. Do the same thing with scrolls and potions and other 1 use Wondrous Items.

sell what? the itty bitty pieces? there are no used scroll salesmen for a reason.

Silver Crusade

Letric wrote:
Rysky wrote:
Sundakan wrote:
Neither does the new Jingasa. Because you probably used it on the greataxe wielding cyclops a few levels back.

*shrugs*

Sell the old one, buy the new one. Do the same thing with scrolls and potions and other 1 use Wondrous Items.

You can't be serious. Not the smartest person in the world would buy a single use item item costing 5k.

It has no uses. The deflection bonus is there doing nothing, because unless you don't have a ring, it's just a bonus inflating the price of a useless item.
So right there, you have 2000-2500 Gold of useless Deflection Bonus.
3000 to negate a crit once in your career seems a bit overexpensive. You can't even buy 10 of them.
Can it save you life? Absolutely. So does Breath of Life, Raise dead, which are similarly on the same price range.

Eventually you see a possible Martial item destroyed, while Casters still get their absolutely not broken standard action wishes/stoneskin and many more.

Breath of Life and Raise dead require you to actually be, ya'know, dead.

With the Jingasa you're paying a bit more than than the breath of life (but certainly not as much as RD) to stay in the fight then and there.

Otherwise you're dropped and either someone has to use their actions and resources to Rez you, of drag you back to someone who can.

Silver Crusade

9mm wrote:
Rysky wrote:
Sundakan wrote:
Neither does the new Jingasa. Because you probably used it on the greataxe wielding cyclops a few levels back.

*shrugs*

Sell the old one, buy the new one. Do the same thing with scrolls and potions and other 1 use Wondrous Items.

sell what? the itty bitty pieces? there are no used scroll salesmen for a reason.

Poor phrasing on my part, meant sell the old Jingasa and buy a new one, just like how you have to replenish your other consumables.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

Create Mr. Pitt wrote:
There were many better compromises including price changes or slight nerfs that would have made more sense. Also the purpose of errata is not to make people who prefer weaker items happy, it's to fix mistakes.

Issues:

  • Price change would have cause the same complaints as now - they would have made it 12,000 to 20,000.
  • Since a price change would be too drastic, what could be fit in 5,000 go price.
  • it was apparently deemed the 1/day crit negate was simply too good of an effect to have.


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James Risner wrote:
Create Mr. Pitt wrote:
There were many better compromises including price changes or slight nerfs that would have made more sense. Also the purpose of errata is not to make people who prefer weaker items happy, it's to fix mistakes.

Issues:

  • Price change would have cause the same complaints as now - they would have made it 12,000 to 20,000.
  • Since a price change would be too drastic, what could be fit in 5,000 go price.
  • it was apparently deemed the 1/day crit negate was simply too good of an effect to have.

It's strange that you find this worth 20k, while Windy Escape it's a level 1 spell as immediate action that allows the same.

Yes, it is available to some races only, but that doesn't mean you can search for the spell and learn it, as long as your DM allows it.
Remember, not everyone plays in PFS.
So basically what casters get as level 1 spell slot, it's worth 20k. Cool.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Letric wrote:

It's strange that you find this worth 20k, while Windy Escape it's a level 1 spell as immediate action that allows the same.

Yes, it is available to some races only, but that doesn't mean you can search for the spell and learn it, as long as your DM allows it.
Remember, not everyone plays in PFS.
So basically what casters get as level 1 spell slot, it's worth 20k. Cool.

Windy escape is not as prevalent, so people have not dealt with it as much. Also, while the jingasa can clearly be used after the crit has been established, the broader question of whether immediate can interrupt something that "already happened" applies to the spell.

From players (including in home games) there is a higher expectation of something being allowed when it's equipment in the equipment book than a spell associated with a niche race in the races book. To put it another way, in my gut the GM can allow windy escape for your elf and can disallow the jingasa for the same character.


Letric wrote:
James Risner wrote:

Issues:

  • Price change would have cause the same complaints as now - they would have made it 12,000 to 20,000.
  • Since a price change would be too drastic, what could be fit in 5,000 go price.
  • it was apparently deemed the 1/day crit negate was simply too good of an effect to have.

It's strange that you find this worth 20k, while Windy Escape it's a level 1 spell as immediate action that allows the same.

Yes, it is available to some races only, but that doesn't mean you can search for the spell and learn it, as long as your DM allows it.
Remember, not everyone plays in PFS.
So basically what casters get as level 1 spell slot, it's worth 20k. Cool.

Mage Armor is a first level spell. The equivalent Bracers of Armor +4 costs 16k.

Pretty much all of the racial spells come with the caveat "The following options are available to X. At the GM's discretion, other appropriate races may make use of these as well." That puts Windy Escape for any non-Sylph character firmly into 'GM fiat' range, similar to custom magic items.

Berinor wrote:
Also, while the jingasa can clearly be used after the crit has been established, the broader question of whether immediate can interrupt something that "already happened" applies to the spell.

Also very true, and may find significant table variation.


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Why skirt the point being made. A first level spell has a tiny opportunity cost. The jingasa is not nearly so trivial.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Matthew Morris wrote:

Hmm, so now in addition to being irrelevant, you're psychic? Impressive.

Several people have argued that a price increase would have been appropriate. So again, you fall flat in your arguments.

You're better than these sniping comments. The irrelevant comment came across as dismissive, but I'm betting that's an escalation of tone being difficult in text. I can imagine this being sassy rather than snippy, but it's getting difficult.

Some people would have found a price increase appropriate. Others have said increasing the price on brawling from +1 (baseline=3k) to +3 (baseline=15k) made it the most worthless enchantment ever and there are presumably kindred spirits who would have said similar things here. It's difficult to know which population would have been larger, but I wouldn't assume that because you would accept a price change but not a functional change that everyone is in the same boat.

Silver Crusade

Cheburn wrote:
Berinor wrote:
Also, while the jingasa can clearly be used after the crit has been established, the broader question of whether immediate can interrupt something that "already happened" applies to the spell.

Also very true, and may find significant table variation.

Good point. I would say you can use it after damage has been established, because of the wording "When struck by a critical hit or sneak attack,". It doesn't mention Confirmation, and you don't roll a separate attack roll for Sneak Attack since it's just damage that's added in on another attack.

Sovereign Court

Letric wrote:


It's strange that you find this worth 20k, while Windy Escape it's a level 1 spell as immediate action that allows the same.

It really doesn't.

SRD Windy Escape wrote:
You respond to an attack by briefly becoming vaporous and insubstantial, allowing the attack to pass harmlessly through you. You gain DR 10/magic against this attack and are immune to any poison, sneak attacks, or critical hit effect from that attack.

You would have to use Windy Escape before even knowing if the attack hits, much less knowing if it crits.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Trogdar wrote:
Why skirt the point being made. A first level spell has a tiny opportunity cost. The jingasa is not nearly so trivial.

Because I (I suspect "we" but don't want to speak for others) don't agree that it's equivalent. If a player wanted windy escape in a game that I run, I would decide whether the spell would need to be used after the attack is declared but before the attack is resolved or after the attack is rolled but before the crit is confirmed. I would not allow it to be used to cancel a crit that has already been confirmed. The spell still has a purpose in that case. The jingasa is not the same.

But because I can respond to that point also: yes, I agree that if the spell can be used after the crit has been confirmed, it is an similar effect for a lesser cost. If that's the only way to read it, the spell should be either nerfed, increased in level, or removed. It arises less often, so it's a lower priority fix. I also believe there's a RAW way to make it reasonable short of banning, so a FAQ would be more appropriate than errata. It doesn't rise to the level of "frequently" asked, though.


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Sissyl wrote:
The "woe" crowd here has an interesting situation. First, they say that a +1 luck bonus to AC is not overpowered, not dangerous to the game, there are better things out there, etc. Then they try to convince us that the jingasa is now "eviscerated" now that it doesn't have the luck bonus to AC. Well, which is it? Is it overpowered and a problem (and if so, why protest the errata?) or is it nothing special (and if so, why whine that it is gone?)?

It's not overpowered. If a +1 bonus of an unorthodox type to AC for 5,000 gold is overpowered, then quite frankly the Dusty Rose Prism should be nerfed into oblivion too, because it's basically the same thing, a +1 bonus of an unorthodox type to AC. The same applies to others that are Sacred/Profane, Dodge, Untyped, etc. The sad part is, it doesn't even require a slot to use, whereas the helm did, and it's still priced the same (probably because of the 1/day critical negation, but again, apparently 2,500 gold for a +1 unorthodox bonus to AC is too cheap). I mean, surely this would mean that the Ioun Stone should be, say, 10,000 gold, right?

Except, the rules explicitly state that a +1 bonus of some other type besides Deflection equates to Bonus Squared X 2,500, instead of the Bonus Squared X 2,000 that the Deflection version is. So really, if you're going to say that a +1 bonus of an unorthodox type shouldn't be worth a slotted 2,500 gold, or a slotless 5,000 gold, well..then the problem isn't with the item, as by the rules it's priced correctly, but with the formula used to calculate the price that's currently listed. I mean, I could invent a bunch of weird typed bonuses (or some other sort of existing bonus that's not viewed as AC to apply as AC) and I'd stack them all together into some sort of ridiculous item that boosts my AC by about, say, 20, it'd be priced at 2,500 X 20, and it'd be ~50,000 gold in price, for an effective +20 bonus to AC. All this does is prove that this formula, if left in certain hands and ideals, can be stupidly broken when you exploit all of the different bonus types you could apply, like Racial, Competence, etc. And not just this formula, ever heard of the whole "Constant True Strike" items? Yeah, same thing there. So as it's been proven, time and time again, this extends well beyond what a Jingasa provides, so saying that the Jingasa, and only the Jingasa is an issue, when there is actually something much larger at play here, is a ridiculous and short-sighted claim.

As for the critical-negation, it's 1/day. For those who are using a X3 or X4 weapon, it'll make them not absolutely destroy a PC on the spot (unless they get very lucky on their die rolls, in which case the PCs were dead regardless of whether they had the helm or not). For those who are using Keen 18-20/X2 weapons, it'll really only slow them down for a single attack. Against those types of enemies, using Moderate to Heavy Fortification armors would be much more effective; the factor that a Jingasa is really only absolutely good against a niche sort of enemy just tells you that it's "stupidly overpowered" in one situation, and "fairly useful to have" in another. Hmmm...what does that remind me of? Oh, Crane Wing, that was "stupidly overpowered" against one-attack enemies, but against enemies with a multitude of attacks, it was "fairly useful to have." Just because players abused a specific niche doesn't mean that the means of abuse itself is overpowered. Items and effects are only as useful as the situation they're relevant in, and just because they're "stupidly overpowered" in one situation doesn't mean they're "stupidly overpowered" in every situation. I can actually come up with several where this item does absolutely nothing for the PC.

And the reason it's viewed as "eviscerated" is because of what it was compared to what it is. If it was what it is now, people wouldn't have even considered it as a good item, especially when there is a slightly more expensive (and now more reliable) option. The thing is, because it's existed in a valued state for so long, people have come to rely on it more and more. Now that it isn't, and there's no real alternative to use? It's the equivalent of Apple or Samsung effectively destroying the technical support of their currently released product in favor of a supposed non-existing product that isn't available to the public (or even anyone at all, actually). Of course people are going to be mad and say that their course of action obliterated their Smart Phone. Just like how we're going to be made and say that their errata destroyed the ideal of the Luck Bonus to AC.


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A price increase wouldn't have destroyed the helmet, hell even the removal of one of two effects (the +1 AC or 1/day Critical Negation) wouldn't have destroyed the helmet. It would still be an attractive item, but it just wouldn't be as readily available (or as appealing) to the adventuring types as it was before. A lot of people (myself included) would've been "satisfied" with that. (Not exactly happy, but such is the way of compromise.)

Are there going to be people that are unhappy? Of course, that's just the nature of the way change works. But it's more prudent of Paizo to take the lesser of two evils.

In my (and a lot of others') opinion(s), they didn't do that.

From this, I stem that Paizo doesn't believe in, or can properly execute, compromise between two (or more) parties. If they can, they do it quite inconsistently.

Silver Crusade

Stalker's Mask and Helm of the Fearsome Mein look fun, though Intimidating Glare still eats a Move Action.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Darksol the Painbringer wrote:

A price increase wouldn't have destroyed the helmet, hell even the removal of one of two effects (the +1 AC or 1/day Critical Negation) wouldn't have destroyed the helmet. It would still be an attractive item, but it just wouldn't be as readily available (or as appealing) to the adventuring types as it was before. A lot of people (myself included) would've been "satisfied" with that. (Not exactly happy, but such is the way of compromise.)

Are there going to be people that are unhappy? Of course, that's just the nature of the way change works. But it's more prudent of Paizo to take the lesser of two evils.

In my (and a lot of others') opinion(s), they didn't do that.

I agree. My opinion is this instance it was a miss (if nothing else then because they didn't define the price for the expended hat). I think it was a problem as it existed, the solution wasn't simple, and their error rate in such circumstances is within my acceptable bounds. There are other solutions that I think would have been better, but unless I have similar volume on similar work, I'm not going to say that's indicative of a problem with their process, just one result.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
a +1 bonus of an unorthodox type to AC for 5,000 gold is overpowered, then quite frankly the Dusty Rose Prism should be nerfed into oblivion too

What you apparently fail to see, is that it is an order of operations problem.

If Dusty Rose came first, change Jingasa to deflection or insight.
If Jingasa came first, change Dusty Rose to defelection or luck.

On to the topic of price increase, people are up in arms about the brawler enhancement, I can't imagine a price increase to the Jingasa wouldn't do the same.


Darksol, it is completely irrelevant to the discussion whether the dusty rose prism is whatever. We are discussing the jingasa. One of the problems with the jingasa is the very fact that you can add it to other items, like the dusty rose prism. And yes, all things considered, Paizo probably should have taken down the dusty rose prism too. And reactionary, and fate's favored. All the small bonuses added together do become a problem. If the jingasa is a problem, then it is a problem no matter if it is the only problem or not.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Matthew Morris wrote:

Rather, James is the one assuming that changing the price would cause a larger reaction.

...

Indeed, if you compare crit negation to breath of life then 2500 + a one shot 3400 would be comparable to the talisman (which takes up 1/3 a slot).

I don't see that assertion. I see him saying that you'd see the "same complaints" which could be interpreted to mean the same people (which you have correctly pointed out is not true), the same volume (I think that's your read), or the same content (my read).

I think the current pricing is about right for what it does if you view it similar to a breath of life scroll. 2k for the deflection bonus, leaving 3k for the crit negation. The scroll costs 1k in broad numbers. I'd say the slot vs broad usage is roughly a wash, so the certainty plus immediate's better action economy than somebody else's standard (plus proximity) puts it in that neighborhood. I'd call it appropriately priced anywhere from 4-7 with the deflection bonus. Like I said elsewhere, I'm not crazy about the specific change in function, but the pricing seems reasonable for what it does now.


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Its become apparent that "the item should be good" and "the item can't be better than most other items" has become an outright contradiction.


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Berinor wrote:


I think the current pricing is about right for what it does if you view it similar to a breath of life scroll. 2k for the deflection bonus, leaving 3k for the crit negation. The scroll costs 1k in broad numbers. I'd say the slot vs broad usage is roughly a wash, so the certainty plus immediate's better action economy than somebody else's standard (plus proximity) puts it in that neighborhood. I'd call it appropriately priced anywhere from 4-7 with the deflection bonus. Like I said elsewhere, I'm not crazy about the specific change in function, but the pricing seems reasonable for what it does now.

Interesting point of view. I'd accept that while a 3k consumable hat which prevented one crit would be reasonable for some characters any deflection bonus which does not scale is inherently worthless, for a spell caster the +1 deflection bonus is too low to make a notable difference in their overall AC for any martial the fact that it doesn't scale means that you almost certainly have a Ring of Protection +2 at roughly the same point in the character's life in which case the Hat is just double charging you for an effect which you can't use.

Had the effect remained a luck bonus and the crit negation become a 1 time deal I could see your point because +1 AC is worth 2.5k in a slot-5k slotless and a one shot crit negation is too rich for my blood at 3k but still usable. As is the item might as well not have the deflection bonus because it isn't a stacking bonus and it doesn't scale, it's just tacked on to inflate the price for no good reason.


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Sundakan wrote:
Neither does the new Jingasa. Because you probably used it on the greataxe wielding cyclops a few levels back.

*Ahem*, because you already sold it to buy something decent.


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James Risner wrote:
Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
a +1 bonus of an unorthodox type to AC for 5,000 gold is overpowered, then quite frankly the Dusty Rose Prism should be nerfed into oblivion too

What you apparently fail to see, is that it is an order of operations problem.

If Dusty Rose came first, change Jingasa to deflection or insight.
If Jingasa came first, change Dusty Rose to defelection or luck.

On to the topic of price increase, people are up in arms about the brawler enhancement, I can't imagine a price increase to the Jingasa wouldn't do the same.

I don't see people "up in arms" and I feel the majority of posters aren't rioting about the price. They do comment that they feel it's a little harsh, that a +2 would have been sufficient, but it's understandable that the price was increased and we can see why it was changed to the price it is so it's much easier to accept. Plus, as with anything that is a price change, there is quickly (because AoMF gets costly fast) a point where it's the cheapest upgrade to get OR your armor is capped and you want some extra power now.


Chess Pwn: I agree. The change in cost dramatically shifts when, what level, the enchant is useful but the difference is that it's still useful! The opposite of the Jingasa, which you can get at the same level as you could before but the dramatically shift is in usefulness as it's now a 5000 gp expendable instead of an actual piece of usable equipment.


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Rysky wrote:
Letric wrote:
Rysky wrote:
Sundakan wrote:
Neither does the new Jingasa. Because you probably used it on the greataxe wielding cyclops a few levels back.

*shrugs*

Sell the old one, buy the new one. Do the same thing with scrolls and potions and other 1 use Wondrous Items.

You can't be serious. Not the smartest person in the world would buy a single use item item costing 5k.

It has no uses. The deflection bonus is there doing nothing, because unless you don't have a ring, it's just a bonus inflating the price of a useless item.
So right there, you have 2000-2500 Gold of useless Deflection Bonus.
3000 to negate a crit once in your career seems a bit overexpensive. You can't even buy 10 of them.
Can it save you life? Absolutely. So does Breath of Life, Raise dead, which are similarly on the same price range.

Eventually you see a possible Martial item destroyed, while Casters still get their absolutely not broken standard action wishes/stoneskin and many more.

Breath of Life and Raise dead require you to actually be, ya'know, dead.

With the Jingasa you're paying a bit more than than the breath of life (but certainly not as much as RD) to stay in the fight then and there.

Otherwise you're dropped and either someone has to use their actions and resources to Rez you, of drag you back to someone who can.

Yeah, because negating a crit is soooo going to protect you or others from dying to a non critical attack.


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James Risner wrote:
Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
a +1 bonus of an unorthodox type to AC for 5,000 gold is overpowered, then quite frankly the Dusty Rose Prism should be nerfed into oblivion too

What you apparently fail to see, is that it is an order of operations problem.

If Dusty Rose came first, change Jingasa to deflection or insight.
If Jingasa came first, change Dusty Rose to defelection or luck.

On to the topic of price increase, people are up in arms about the brawler enhancement, I can't imagine a price increase to the Jingasa wouldn't do the same.

That's not relevant, nor was it the problem. The devs didn't say "Hey, the Jingasa is the earliest release compared to the Ioun Stone, let's nullify that instead!" (I kind of wish they did, since that'd explain why they decided to do something as silly as this.) It doesn't matter if the Jingasa or the Ioun Stone came first, what's relevant is what they provide; a +1 bonus of an unorthodox type to AC. The Jingasa had other goodies, but it was a slotted item, meaning its price was only half as much.

What's relevant is the reason why it was nerfed. It was nerfed because:

1. It was too good for its price.
2a. Everyone and their grandma had one.
2b. Everyone who had it had a 95% chance of possessing the Fate's Favored trait. Which is stupidly overpowered for a trait, and should be a benefit from the likes of a Luck Subdomain, or similar class feature restriction. (Fate Subdomain, anyone?)

You could substitute the Jingasa and Dusty Rose Prism's types around, and I can assure you that the same nerf(s) that went to the Jingasa would've went to the Ioun Stone instead, especially if we want to consider the Jingasa and the Ioun Stone as effective equals in their (base) benefits. And if they didn't nerf the Jingasa based on the factor that it gave a Luck bonus to AC, then I assure you that they nerfed it as a kneejerk reaction to their true intentions, which is to nerf Fate's Favored. (Which, for a Trait, is stronger than nearly every damn feat in the game.)

They're up in arms because it was too much of a price increase for what it does (+2 to Attack and Damage rolls with Unarmed Strikes and Grapple checks), and plus it's an extremely niche armor enhancement anyway; most of the characters who would want it either can't have it (No Armor requirements), or would rather be using heavier armor for the AC instead. Who would want it after those conditions are factored in? Not a whole lot of people, I can tell you that much.

@ Sissyl: Except by your logic, the Jingasa wouldn't be the only "problem" that's prevalent and requires fixing. It makes no sense to nerf only the Jingasa when there are other equivalents to work with that are providing the same "problem" that is "+1 to AC for 5,000 gold is overpowered!" Extrapolating that logic further, upgrading to a +3 or higher Armor/Shield is overpowered, upgrading your Ring of Protection or Amulet of Natural Armor beyond +2 is overpowered, the list goes on.

So yes, the Ioun Stone is definitely relevant, because it's effectively the same damn item. How many players substituted their Jingasa for the Ioun Stone to maintain their AC? I assure you about 90% of them did. So now, instead of people running around with "silly war hats", they're running around with "Rose Stones" swirling around their pretty little heads, and their AC is as good as it was before (well, almost, if we're factoring Fate's Favored).

Silver Crusade

Trent formaldehime wrote:
Rysky wrote:
Letric wrote:
Rysky wrote:
Sundakan wrote:
Neither does the new Jingasa. Because you probably used it on the greataxe wielding cyclops a few levels back.

*shrugs*

Sell the old one, buy the new one. Do the same thing with scrolls and potions and other 1 use Wondrous Items.

You can't be serious. Not the smartest person in the world would buy a single use item item costing 5k.

It has no uses. The deflection bonus is there doing nothing, because unless you don't have a ring, it's just a bonus inflating the price of a useless item.
So right there, you have 2000-2500 Gold of useless Deflection Bonus.
3000 to negate a crit once in your career seems a bit overexpensive. You can't even buy 10 of them.
Can it save you life? Absolutely. So does Breath of Life, Raise dead, which are similarly on the same price range.

Eventually you see a possible Martial item destroyed, while Casters still get their absolutely not broken standard action wishes/stoneskin and many more.

Breath of Life and Raise dead require you to actually be, ya'know, dead.

With the Jingasa you're paying a bit more than than the breath of life (but certainly not as much as RD) to stay in the fight then and there.

Otherwise you're dropped and either someone has to use their actions and resources to Rez you, of drag you back to someone who can.

Yeah, because negating a crit is soooo going to protect you or others from dying to a non critical attack.

Yeah, actually.

You get crit. You negate crit. You drop monster on your turn since you're still up.

You get crit. You drop. Cleric spends turn rezzing you. Monster drops Cleric. Monster takes AoO on you as you get back up. You drop.


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Rysky wrote:

Yeah, actually.

You get crit. You negate crit. You drop monster on your turn since you're still up.

You get crit. You drop. Cleric spends turn rezzing you. Monster drops Cleric. Monster takes AoO on you as you get back up. You drop.

Ah yes, that is a situation that comes up constantly. I can't play a game without tripping over this exact scenario AT LEAST three times a session. It's ubiquitous.


Fates Favored is only over powered as a trait because of all the available options it can capitalize on.

If it has less avenues to be abused, then it might match the intent of the designers of fates, and the Jingasa didn't fit into that.

Silver Crusade

Sundakan wrote:
Rysky wrote:

Yeah, actually.

You get crit. You negate crit. You drop monster on your turn since you're still up.

You get crit. You drop. Cleric spends turn rezzing you. Monster drops Cleric. Monster takes AoO on you as you get back up. You drop.

Ah yes, that is a situation that comes up constantly. I can't play a game without tripping over this exact scenario AT LEAST three times a session. It's ubiquitous.

And I can't play a single game without having half the party dropping and needing to cast Breath of Life :3


master_marshmallow wrote:

Fates Favored is only over powered as a trait because of all the available options it can capitalize on.

If it has less avenues to be abused, then it might match the intent of the designers of fates, and the Jingasa didn't fit into that.

So it's all of the OTHER options and not the single option that increases all the others... The flame thrower isn't the reason for the fire, it's all those flammable objects laying around...

Also on that point, they JUST added an archetype in UI that gives a NEW "available options it can capitalize on"... So it seems that they are just fine with MORE avenues doesn't it?


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graystone wrote:
master_marshmallow wrote:

Fates Favored is only over powered as a trait because of all the available options it can capitalize on.

If it has less avenues to be abused, then it might match the intent of the designers of fates, and the Jingasa didn't fit into that.

So it's all of the OTHER options and not the single option that increases all the others... The flame thrower isn't the reason for the fire, it's all those flammable objects laying around...

Also on that point, they JUST added an archetype in UI that gives a NEW "available options it can capitalize on"... So it seems that they are just fine with MORE avenues doesn't it?

Perhaps AC wasn't one of those they intended?

I don't have the answers man, I'm just not as mad about it.


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I think the subtle game interaction that one might miss is that players are engaging with the RNG far more than any individual npc, making a once a day critical negation not a terrible idea on its face.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Trogdar wrote:
I think the subtle game interaction that one might miss is that players are engaging with the RNG far more than any individual npc, making a once a day critical negation not a terrible idea on its face.

This is absolutely true. PCs roll a lot more dice and are generally the favorite to win every encounter they get involved with. Pretty much anything that decreases randomness will be a boon to the players because a lucky crit on that boss means the battle ends two rounds faster than it would have. A lucky crit on a PC means the battle goes a different direction than it was expected to. And potentially rolling a new character.

Whether negating that crit is good or bad is subjective. It's a subtle but true point that it has a drastically different implication for PCs than for NPCs.

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