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Hmm, guess it's been a weird houserule/misunderstanding our group has used then >_<Oh wow! Has it always been that way or was it changed in Pathfinder?AlwaysIn my experience, exactly such stuff is a huge problem.
There so many people complaining about things they don´t even really researched or took the time to read and comprehend.You won´t believe how often i hear people talk about their bad Pathfinder experiences just to find out that they played with houserules changing the whole system just because someone not understanding the rules thought it might be fun or sounds cooler.
*nods*
This is a serious problem, when going to Patfinder from 3.5 I tried to read over much of the rules but I've sadly glossed over a bunch of things apparently.
Interesting =/= Optimal
The Jingasa is still an interesting item.
Interesting =/= Useful for it's price-point.
Interesting =/= Players will buy an overpriced item.You're concept of Interesting =/= my concept of it; it now inspires a feeling of 'meh... , how much can I sell it for...'
It's pretty much the same feeling for the bracers. If I find them now, it's off to the trading post to trade it for a real item... I'd rather have a truly interesting item, like a any-tool, than either of these.
Interesting =/= Optimal
The Jingasa is still an interesting item.
Interesting =/= Useful for it's price-point.
Interesting =/= Players will buy an overpriced item.
You're concept of Interesting =/= my concept of it; it now inspires a feeling of 'meh... , how much can I sell it for...'It's pretty much the same feeling for the bracers. If I find them now, it's off to the trading post to trade it for a real item... I'd rather have a truly interesting item, like a any-tool, than either of these.
Good for you, I guess?
Good for you, I guess?Interesting =/= Optimal
The Jingasa is still an interesting item.
Interesting =/= Useful for it's price-point.
Interesting =/= Players will buy an overpriced item.
You're concept of Interesting =/= my concept of it; it now inspires a feeling of 'meh... , how much can I sell it for...'It's pretty much the same feeling for the bracers. If I find them now, it's off to the trading post to trade it for a real item... I'd rather have a truly interesting item, like a any-tool, than either of these.
Not really, as a truly interesting would be used as something other than cash or a +1 cooking pot... :P
I'd rather not have more items in the game that are more interesting for their gp value than what they do...
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In related news.
oh man, I had exactly the same face when I saw the UE errata. I like how some folks here are so happy with the removal of items, because this are basically item removals, you are not going to see most of this items anymore in any table and if by some random reason a dm gives it as loot it is 100% sure the players will sell it , way to go paizo
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I can see why the bracers of falcons aim is bad for PFS. But for home games all you have to do is find a mage or a druid(good luck on that) with craft wondrous item, and have them make an item that does the same thing. You'll just have to live with having the face of a hawk all the time while wearing it.
As someone pointed out above the real problem is the level of the spell it is based on. 4th lvl sounds about right to me for aspect of the falcon. So the item would now cost 112,000gp. Hmm that seems a bit high for what little it gives. So make it a 3rd lvl and it drops to 60,000gp. Much better. Of course there is still that wonky falcon face and eyes to deal with Oh well.
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I can see why the bracers of falcons aim is bad for PFS. But for home games all you have to do is find a mage or a druid(good luck on that) with craft wondrous item, and have them make an item that does the same thing. You'll just have to live with having the face of a hawk all the time while wearing it.
As someone pointed out above the real problem is the level of the spell it is based on. 4th lvl sounds about right to me for aspect of the falcon. So the item would now cost 112,000gp. Hmm that seems a bit high for what little it gives. So make it a 3rd lvl and it drops to 60,000gp. Much better. Of course there is still that wonky falcon face and eyes to deal with Oh well.
Not really. The spell aspect of the falcon isn't overpowered for a 1st-level spell.
The main issue is that whoever did the conversion of bracers of falcon's aim for Ultimate Equipment goofed. They applied the "Use activated or continuous" line without "[comparing] the new item to an item that is already priced" or looking at the constant bonus lines at the top of the table. This is the same issue you see when people try to make items of continuous mage armor or shield.
A comparison to already priced items would have revealed that the effect is better than lesser bracers of archery (5,000 gp), so the item shouldn't cost less; somewhere around greater bracers of archery (25,000 gp) would probably be about right. I estimated the market price of bracers of falcon's aim based on the constant bonuses granted and came up with 28,350 gp.
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Not really. The spell aspect of the falcon isn't overpowered for a 1st-level spell.
The main issue is that whoever did the conversion of bracers of falcon's aim for Ultimate Equipment goofed. They applied the "Use activated or continuous" line without "[comparing] the new item to an item that is already priced" or looking at the constant bonus lines at the top of the table. This is the same issue you see when people try to make items of continuous mage armor or shield.
A comparison to already priced items would have revealed that the effect is better than lesser bracers of archery (5,000 gp), so the item shouldn't cost less; somewhere around greater bracers of archery (25,000 gp) would probably be about right. I estimated the market price of bracers of falcon's aim based on the constant bonuses granted and came up with 28,350 gp.
The thing about comparing it to an existing item is fine, but comparing it to the bracers of archery is not a good one as it also breaks the item pricing rules. It gives a plus one to hit and grants a feat. There is no rule for pricing an item that grants a feat in pathfinder. The archery bracers have a pretty stiff limitation in that the bonus only works with bows, but so does the falcons aim, which only works with bows/crossbows. Both items instill a feat and a +1 hit (yes and a plus 3 to perception). One is based on a spell[aspect of falcon] and the other is based on modifiers [bracers of archery]. Both used to have constant effects, but with the errata the falcon aim is now for 1 min per day, which is quite limiting.
They should have at least made it similar in effect as the ring of invisibility which is also a very powerful item based on a second level spell. Its not constant, but it is at-will. Which they should have changed the bracers to and bumped up the price marginally for the fact it was removing the polymorphic effect.So thinking about the spell lvl of aspect of falcon maybe a second lvl would be more appropriate. Its is still way more powerful then most first and second lvl spells. I think that a ranger of 4th lvl with a 18 str and a 12 wis can cast both gravity bow and falcon's aim with a MW Compound str +4 bow can possibly do 6d6+12 damage with no save on a crit 19/20 is very powerful for a 4th lvl pc.
I am pleasantly surprised that you're adjusting the spell level to your expected price instead of basing the price on spell level.
But the whole "basing price on spell level" part of magic item creation is at best faulty, and at worst, an excuse to craft powerful magic items for a fraction of their rightful price.
Basing the price of a magic item on the spell is something of a last resort. That's what you do when you've
A) Not found any existing item to compare your new item to.
and
B) Not been able to price the benefit of the spell from the constant bonus prices.
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The thing about comparing it to an existing item is fine, but comparing it to the bracers of archery is not a good one as it also breaks the item pricing rules. It gives a plus one to hit and grants a feat. There is no rule for pricing an item that grants a feat in pathfinder.
There is no rule for pricing an item that grants a feat in pathfinder. Correct.
But there are precedents for pricing specific feats. Such as IUS, Endurance, Alertness and Weapon Proficiency.The Bracers of Archery (Lesser) does not give a plus one to hit and a feat. They give a competence bonus to attack or the weapon proficiency feat. (Since you'd need proficiency to benefit from the attack bonus)
These bracers look like normal protective wear. They empower the wearer to use any bow (not including crossbows) as if she were proficient in its use. If she already has proficiency with any type of bow, she gains a +2 competence bonus on attack rolls and a +1 competence bonus on damage rolls whenever using that type of bow. Both bracers must be worn for the magic to be effective.
/.../
These wristbands appear similar to greater bracers of archery, though they are typically constructed of lighter material. They function as greater bracers of archery, except that they grant a +1 competence bonus on attack rolls and no bonus on damage rolls.
Weapon Proficiency has a price of 5,000 gp. (Don't forget to halve the price in the link since Ioun Stones are slotless)
A Competence bonus of 1 to attack has a price of 2,000 gp. (Same as above, halve the price seen in the link)
So now that we have the prices for the two different effects Bracers of Archery (Lesser) can grant, we just have to understand why the price is based on the weapon proficiency.
And this because you'll get one of the effects, and not both. So the item price is based on the most valuable effect. This is also why the Bracers of Archery is such a crappy item for archers, since you're paying for weapon proficiency when you wanted to buy the competence bonus to attack.
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The archery bracers have a pretty stiff limitation in that the bonus only works with bows, but so does the falcons aim, which only works with bows/crossbows.
This is what the cool kids call "a false limitation". In the same way that a knife-wielding Rogue wouldn't suffer any from taking the Knife Master archetype, there isn't any limitation if it is tailored after your build.
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Both items instill a feat and a +1 hit (yes and a plus 3 to perception).
I mentioned it before but just wanted to make it very clear. Bracers of Falcon's Aim instill a feat and a bonus to hit. Bracers of Archery instill one of the two.
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So thinking about the spell lvl of aspect of falcon maybe a second lvl would be more appropriate. Its is still way more powerful then most first and second lvl spells. I think that a ranger of 4th lvl with a 18 str and a 12 wis can cast both gravity bow and falcon's aim with a MW Compound str +4 bow can possibly do 6d6+12 damage with no save on a crit 19/20 is very powerful for a 4th lvl pc.
I've yet to see any 4th level archer with 18 str.
And the ranger is using up all of her spells for the day, so of course she should be stronger buffed. But that would require two standard actions, and it is still just a 10% chance to critically threaten, and then she got to confirm it too.
The spell level of Aspect of the Falcon is fine. Personal spells are stronger than their normal counterparts.
The thing about comparing it to an existing item is fine, but comparing it to the bracers of archery is not a good one as it also breaks the item pricing rules. It gives a plus one to hit and grants a feat. There is no rule for pricing an item that grants a feat in pathfinder. The archery bracers have a pretty stiff limitation in that the bonus only works with bows, but so does the falcons aim, which only works with bows/crossbows.
Not really. The spell aspect of the falcon isn't overpowered for a 1st-level spell.
The main issue is that whoever did the conversion of bracers of falcon's aim for Ultimate Equipment goofed. They applied the "Use activated or continuous" line without "[comparing] the new item to an item that is already priced" or looking at the constant bonus lines at the top of the table. This is the same issue you see when people try to make items of continuous mage armor or shield.
A comparison to already priced items would have revealed that the effect is better than lesser bracers of archery (5,000 gp), so the item shouldn't cost less; somewhere around greater bracers of archery (25,000 gp) would probably be about right. I estimated the market price of bracers of falcon's aim based on the constant bonuses granted and came up with 28,350 gp.
Bracers of falcon's aim (pre-errata) duplicate the effect of aspect of the falcon (without the appearance change):
- +3 competence bonus on Perception checks- +1 competence bonus on ranged attacks (all ranged attacks, not just with bows or crossbows)
- critical modifier with bows and crossbows becomes 19-20/x3
That is much more powerful than lesser bracers of archery. IMO, that's even slightly more powerful than greater bracers of archery.
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The thing about comparing it to an existing item is fine, but comparing it to the bracers of archery is not a good one as it also breaks the item pricing rules. It gives a plus one to hit and grants a feat. There is no rule for pricing an item that grants a feat in pathfinder. The archery bracers have a pretty stiff limitation in that the bonus only works with bows, but so does the falcons aim, which only works with bows/crossbows.Bracers of falcon's aim (pre-errata) duplicate the effect of aspect of the falcon (without the appearance change):
- +3 competence bonus on Perception checks
- +1 competence bonus on ranged attacks (all ranged attacks, not just with bows or crossbows)
- critical modifier with bows and crossbows becomes 19-20/x3That is much more powerful than lesser bracers of archery. IMO, that's even slightly more powerful than greater bracers of archery.
Again I reiterate. That I feel that bracers of archery is the wrong item to compare with for it valuation. Due to the fact that the item (bracers of archery) breaks any of the rules for item pricing and is just a arbitrary price determined by the original author of the items. Whereas the falcons aim price is based on standard pricing for what type of item it was.
I am not saying the falcons aim bracers pre-errated are valued correctly, but that the current change to them is the wrong value. With the current version of the bracers they are nigh useless now to anyone, especially a ranger. If the paizo staff had correctly compared the bracers to an appropriate item and just priced it higher either by changing the level of the spell (Which for a 1st level spell duplicates the same effect as one 3rd lvl spell and two 1st lvl spells, and yet is itself still a 1st lvl spell,) this whole discussion would be moot.
Any character I would play that would use the falcon aim bracers would gladly pay much more for the per-errated version then what they are now. Most people if they found the bracers (in the new version) in a loot pile would just sell them at the next town they came to and used the 2000gp to enhance a weapon. However a good DM would probably say that the owner of the magic shop or pawn shop would not pay that much for that item since it is not even worth 400gp in it's current version. A Ranger would be better off buying a wand of the aspect of the falcon or having a wizard craft one for him, then to use the bracers.
I actually found this thread and was hoping to find out what paizo's reasoning was to the way they changed the bracers in the errata, but I didn't find it here. At least discussing it and putting forth my thoughts might bring some understanding to why they changed it as they did.
I read thru the errata and found most of the stuff made sense and was good, but I am just totally baffled by this change. And if you were to ask anyone I have played with I am all about Balance in the rules, but this was a big mistake in the execution of this item.
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I was going to make a new character after a long time not playing and am now appalled by the nerfs.
Why don't we just have an "errata" removing all non spellcasters at this rate? They are pretty much getting more and more useless.
Why don't we all stop playing and take cover from the falling effing sky!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?
Why don't we just have an "errata" removing all non spellcasters at this rate? They are pretty much getting more and more useless.
Remove them, remove full casters, rearrange the condition removal spells a little, move the plot spells down a bit, and you'll have a pretty well balanced game as far as player options are concerned.
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Since I believe in trying to stay as close to the books when making a PC I have decided to have an item crafted that has the same flavor but isn't as penalized as the bracers are. I am not a very lucky dice roller and rarely roll 19 or 20. So the critical aspect of the bracers does not interest me in any way.
Falcon’s Mask:
This mask adorned with feathers from a bird of prey and made of soft leather gives the wearer of this mask some qualities associated with birds of prey. She is more aware of her surroundings and better at using ranged weapons. When worn this mask grants a +1 competence bonus to ranged attacks and a +3 competence bonus to perception checks vs vision.
+1 Competence bonus to ranged attacks = 2000
+3 Competence bonus to perception = 1350 (900x1.5)
Total price 3350gp
To create 1675gp, CL:5
Now this won't fly (pun intended) in PFS play but does follow the pricing guide. But we don't play in PFS games.
Now before those that like to compare the BOFA to the bracers of archery remember they are priced according to having a FEAT built into the item, which is what is driving up the cost of the item. Also for those two items LBoA, GBoA (which get sold as soon as we get them) are priced too high for what they grant to the user. That is what they should have actually changed in the books errata.
If I did want to have the increased crit range added it would be an extra 19000gp to the items cost (constant Keen spell added) for a total of 22350gp. Or if you wanted to be even cheaper and cheesier just have it add Improved Critical (longbow or whatever) feat for 6000gp (total 9350). All these prices are by comparing them to existing items and by book formulas. Items used for comparisons were Ioun stones that give the same abilities.
Not for PFS players, players who don't have the means to get the original edition of a book, or people who, you know, what that stuff that needed fixing and got fixed alongside the slash-and-burn nerfs.
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There's also the general idea that professional game designers should know far more about how to make a balanced, fun game than nobody GMs, so unless you have a specific reason for why things need to be adjusted for your game in particular then the book probably should have priced the item better than you could have.
Think of the outrage in this thread as the equivalent of the outrage you might feel towards a doctor who advised you that drinking 6 glasses of bourbon a day is "completely healthy".
That's too extreme. Doctors are supposed to keep people alive; game designers keep people entertained. Maybe a yoga instructor who advises a pose that causes unpleasant strain in some people?
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There's also the general idea that professional game designers should know far more about how to make a balanced, fun game than nobody GMs, so unless you have a specific reason for why things need to be adjusted for your game in particular then the book probably should have priced the item better than you could have.
Think of the outrage in this thread as the equivalent of the outrage you might feel towards a doctor who advised you that drinking 6 glasses of bourbon a day is "completely healthy".
I'd say "we're going to Vegas!".