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These nerfs are overdone. The items went from, "damn, that sounds like a nice thing to have" to "nope, not worth the money, too overpriced."
The 10x increase in the Vial of Efficacious Medicine was similar; it went from, hey, that's a good deal, to Nope.
(I can't find the FAQ that has that price increase, though. Where is it? I distinctly remember it happening, but I don't think an updated version of the Alchemy Manual was released. Archives of Nethys confirms my memory, but I can't find an official source.)
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A quick note for clarity's sake - Mr. Compton likely had very little to do with most of these changes. This is official errata to the RPG line, and as such, is the responsibility of the Pathfinder Design Team. He probably spent very little of his time on this - in fact, the time he spent "instead of sanctioning stuff" was probably spent in this thread, helping us deal with these changes.
Feel free to be angry - I can certainly understand that urge. Just be angry with the right people, please. ^_^
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There's the Nethys staff of entwined serpents.
I live in fear of the day the design team notices that again. It will make my PFS mystic theurge very sad.
That item is really cool but isn't a 'stave'. Thanks though. It is always interesting to see a new item I didn't know about that has an interesting effect.
Edit: And because it isn't a staff it doesn't use your caster level. Sad.
Pathfinder Society Lead Developer
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Well, now that we've gone on yet another nerf-bat spree, does anyone mind telling me what to do when a PFS Character's entire purchasing history becomes nonsense thanks to decisions made with certain items in mind? Do I get to resell items purchased specifically to synergize with the item at their full price? Or am I left with a character that effectively permanently lost money because of unpredicted errata?
It's a little hard for me to say based on your description. Care to provide a few more details so that I could provide a better response?
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I used to rue the nerfs
Cried over those boots of earth
My favored class bonus gone
Vanished with the mists of dawn
We used to roll the dice
Used Mnemonic vestments more than twice
Our slippers would feather step
Now replaced with wands we have to schlep
One minute I held U.E.
Next the errata’s fallen on me
And I discovered that the builds I planned
Stood on pillars of salt and pillars of sand
I hear the forumites wails a-ringing
The errata’s curses they’re singing
Gone four-mirror, my sword and shield
Pathfinders goin’ naked in the field
For some reason I can’t explain
The jingasa’s no longer worthy of its name
Only one crit that’s absurd
For a hat that once ruled the world
It’s a wicked and wild wind
Blew down the rules we use to win
Shattered builds with the sound of goblin drums
No recon gloves to tell us what’s to come
We still think Compton’s great
He gives bad news and tells it straight
But I have one piece of good news to sing
No one’s touched my seven color ring!
I hear the forumites wails a-ringing
The errata’s curses they’re singing
Gone four-mirror, my sword and shield
Pathfinders goin’ naked in the field
For some reason I can’t explain
The jingasa’s no longer worthy of its name
Only one crit that’s absurd
For a hat that once ruled the world
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I'm sure no one's happy about the jingasa nerf, but it really needed to be done. Thanks Paizo!
I wouldn't say "no one". You should have seen me at PFS tonight.
When every single character you encounter has one, and you're asked every time by everybody why your characters do not...there be a problem.
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I wouldn't say "no one". You should have seen me at PFS tonight.
When every single character you encounter has one, and you're asked every time by everybody why your characters do not...there be a problem.
The problem is with crits, the fact the Jingasa is required at upper levels tells you how borked the system is.
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Well, now that we've gone on yet another nerf-bat spree, does anyone mind telling me what to do when a PFS Character's entire purchasing history becomes nonsense thanks to decisions made with certain items in mind? Do I get to resell items purchased specifically to synergize with the item at their full price? Or am I left with a character that effectively permanently lost money because of unpredicted errata?It's a little hard for me to say based on your description. Care to provide a few more details so that I could provide a better response?
My -2 was one of my first characters, an investigator that I built into Unarmed Combat when I discovered the Brawling Enchantment. The character purchased Brawling Armor and an Agile Amulet of Mighty Fists, then put the remainder of their wealth into other generally useful items. The character would have to either sell off an item like their Constitution Belt to afford the 'upgrade' to what they already had, develop a raging GMF Potion addiction, or retire the character.
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My -2 was one of my first characters, an investigator that I built into Unarmed Combat when I discovered the Brawling Enchantment. The character purchased Brawling Armor and an Agile Amulet of Mighty Fists, then put the remainder of their wealth into other generally useful items. The character would have to either sell off an item like their Constitution Belt to afford the 'upgrade' to what they already had, develop a raging GMF Potion addiction, or retire the character.
Would the character still function without the +2 to attack and damage for a few sessions?
How much gold are you short, and at what level?
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The problem is with crits, the fact the Jingasa is required at upper levels tells you how borked the system is.
Having it on none of my characters including my 16, or my other eyes characters, or any of my 9+ characters, I think it fair to say that it is not "required".
This is really making a mountain out of a single item molehill that absolutely deserved every ounce of nerfing it got. And there's still the Buffering cap, and other items should you wish to make a crit resistant build (I have one, they're fun, I played it tonight, I negated three crits).
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What about people who took the Fate's Favored trait specifically to interact with the Jingasa?
Can the trait be retrained?
Since this information isn't contained in the original post, I suspect it's something the PFS team will end up discussing at some point (soon?). As of right now, the answer is probably no (to be safe), but I hope it will be allowed. (Not that there aren't some other great luck bonuses out there to be had, that one is the most common though)
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My -2 was one of my first characters, an investigator that I built into Unarmed Combat when I discovered the Brawling Enchantment. The character purchased Brawling Armor and an Agile Amulet of Mighty Fists, then put the remainder of their wealth into other generally useful items. The character would have to either sell off an item like their Constitution Belt to afford the 'upgrade' to what they already had, develop a raging GMF Potion addiction, or retire the character.Would the character still function without the +2 to attack and damage for a few sessions?
How much gold are you short, and at what level?
My character is 11th level, so a scenario or 2 to get the 16k to get back to +2 Brawling Mithral Chain Shirt
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My character is 11th level, so a scenario or 2 to get the 16k to get back to +2 Brawling Mithral Chain ShirtWould the character still function without the +2 to attack and damage for a few sessions?
How much gold are you short, and at what level?
That doesn't seem so bad. I was expecting more of a six-scenario wait.
It's unfortunate that the investigator can't learn greater magic fang, though.
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Okay, with the exception of brawling armor, most of these look pretty good and/or necessary. I'm sure no one's happy about the jingasa nerf, but it really needed to be done. Thanks Paizo!
I'm pretty stoked about it! Very tired of seeing them both as a GM and a player--both in PFS and out of it.
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My -2 was one of my first characters, an investigator that I built into Unarmed Combat when I discovered the Brawling Enchantment. The character purchased Brawling Armor and an Agile Amulet of Mighty Fists, then put the remainder of their wealth into other generally useful items. The character would have to either sell off an item like their Constitution Belt to afford the 'upgrade' to what they already had, develop a raging GMF Potion addiction, or retire the character.
It's actually this level of hyperbole that has me honestly happy about these changes.
Nobody needs a Jingasa on every character. I'm sure an unarmed investigator with an amulet of mighty fists and other items will not need to be 'retired' because of a loss of +2 hit/damage (if that were the case I'd need to retire every time I had the shaken condition). Some really, really underpriced items with some overly-powerful game effects were brought down in power. I'd still consider gloves of reconnaissance on the right character. But when there's a single item that's so vastly overpowered that it becomes so commonplace you see every min/max build with said item, there probably is a problem.
Might the pendulum swung too far in some places? Probably, but saying that 'this character sucks now' because of the loss of +2, or 'every high level scenario is a crapshoot now because of crits' really isn't honest at all. I have plenty of characters without any of these items, and I still have fun, and you will too.
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I'm sure no one's happy about the jingasa nerf, but it really needed to be done. Thanks Paizo!I wouldn't say "no one". You should have seen me at PFS tonight.
When every single character you encounter has one, and you're asked every time by everybody why your characters do not...there be a problem.
The real question becomes "what do you fill that slot with now?" Jingasa was good because it had a useful effect and was reasonably priced. There are only a few items in the head slot that meet those criteria. Frankly, I suspect that you'll find a lot of people either skipping the slot entirely or suddenly everyone will have Goz Masks and/or Circlets of Persuasion. The Goz Mask is the better deal here because it allows you to shut off sneak attack in every combat with a 1st level wand if you want.
Think about it: every Pathfinder you come across with a distinctive, Gozreh-inspired mask from the Sodden Lands. That's the best case scenario, in which people actually fill the slot.
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It's more DR I'm concerned with.
If that's your concern, I'd recommend oils of versatile weapon. Neither brawling armor nor potions of greater magic fang will make a real difference versus DR - versatile weapon gets you past most of the basic types.
Admittedly, you'll need multiple for various types - if you routinely travel with allies capable of casting it, scrolls are more versatile (pun unintended). ^_^
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The Jingasa is severely overpriced for its new ability. 2000 for +1 deflection (as ring) and 3000 for a one time crit negation (that now requires an immediate action)? no way that's cost reasonable.
2500 would be more reasonable.
the 5000 price for its previous ability was pretty fair - but it has ALWAYS been the Fortune's Favored trait that made it overpowered.
edit
for comparison, the buffering cap is a 1/day use for nonlethal rather than lethal from crit, and only costs 2000
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The Jingasa is now a ring of protection that *will* protect you from the first set of flanking babaus you encounter in a scenario.
It should have been left as a luck bonus, and the single use should have been a *may* effect. I understand that current design is to remove these things from Pathfinder but as it is this item is likely to prevent a few points of damage in a situation the wielder would rather prevent.
I'm pretty sure it's still an optional use, since it still says "can use an immediate action to prevent". ^_^
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The Jingasa is severely overpriced for its new ability. 2000 for +1 deflection (as ring) and 3000 for a one time crit negation (that now requires an immediate action)? no way that's cost reasonable.
2500 would be more reasonable.
For the record, I'm in agreement with this to some extent. I'd say 2500 to 3500, myself - the hat does free up a ring slot, which is probably more useful than the head slot.
Still, 5K seems rather excessive.
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Leaving aside my personal feelings about the changes (in favor of them as a whole) I do want to make three points in favor of the Jingasa after the errata:
1. A lot of people don't really use the head slot for anything else.
2. There are a ton of great rings out there.
3. There are things that count as a sneak attack that it might be worth using the 1/ever to avoid.
I mean, most of my characters have a Bead of Newt Prevention. How many times have I had to use it? Never. But 1000 gp is worth it to me to avoid needing a break enchantment. How much more is it worth to avoid needing a resurrection?
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The Jingasa is severely overpriced for its new ability. 2000 for +1 deflection (as ring) and 3000 for a one time crit negation (that now requires an immediate action)? no way that's cost reasonable.
2500 would be more reasonable.
For the record, I'm in agreement with this to some extent. I'd say 2500 to 3500, myself - the hat does free up a ring slot, which is probably more useful than the head slot.
Still, 5K seems rather excessive.
well, sort of...rings can get higher deflection bonuses but if you're happy with a +1 forever then maybe its worth it for you. but with a +1 limit I'd never take it.
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I continue to think these errata go too far with the nerfs and never seem to contain any buffs to unusable content. Surely some published content needs to be made stronger and more viable rather than just better by proxy of everything else being unusable.
At least it is just items this time around.
Jaunt Boots got changed from a standard action to a move action. So at least 1 item got improved. Gloves of Dueling still provide a big boost to Weapon Training. They didn't nerf all the good stuff.
As long as they don't do what they did last time and eratta another major book a week or two from now, (Advanced Players?) things will be fine.
I bet they didn't touch the gloves because the Weapon master handbook assumes the purchasing of them for the balancing of many powers.
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The Jingasa is severely overpriced for its new ability. 2000 for +1 deflection (as ring) and 3000 for a one time crit negation (that now requires an immediate action)? no way that's cost reasonable.
2500 would be more reasonable.
For the record, I'm in agreement with this to some extent. I'd say 2500 to 3500, myself - the hat does free up a ring slot, which is probably more useful than the head slot.
Still, 5K seems rather excessive.
well, sort of...rings can get higher deflection bonuses but if you're happy with a +1 forever then maybe its worth it for you. but with a +1 limit I'd never take it.
Wear it instead of a +1, blow its charge, sell it, get a +2. ^_^
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Wear it instead of a +1, blow its charge, sell it, get a +2. ^_^
This brings up an interesting question, actually - something that might just need a clarification (Campaign or otherwise).
What happens when you're reselling an expended jingasa?
As written, it would appear that it still sells for half the listed price, e.g. 2,500 gp. (This makes blowing that charge a bit less painful, I suppose.)
Still... probably something in need of attention. ^_^
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I'm sure no one's happy about the jingasa nerf, but it really needed to be done. Thanks Paizo!I wouldn't say "no one". You should have seen me at PFS tonight.
When every single character you encounter has one, and you're asked every time by everybody why your characters do not...there be a problem.
RIGHT... But I'm sure no one bats an eye if you don't have magical weapon, magic armor, magic belt... Like it was the good AC to get in the uprade scheme. 6000 to upgrade ring or amulet, 5000 and a bonus? Hmm... which to go for? That's why it was always seen.
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The problem is with crits, the fact the Jingasa is required at upper levels tells you how borked the system is.I wouldn't say "no one". You should have seen me at PFS tonight.
When every single character you encounter has one, and you're asked every time by everybody why your characters do not...there be a problem.
This is a fallacy. I have two characters at 18+, one at 16, two at 14, one at 12, and a bunch at 10+. All told I have 24 active characters and not a one has the Jingasa. They do quite fine without it. It isn't required to survive or even enjoy high level play.
I b know many think it's a must. But it isn't necessary.
So while I agree the nerf went too far, I'm not ready to condemn the game system because of its popularity either.