If I take 3 levels in fighter, then a level in brawler, do i qualify as a 4th level fighter for weapon specialization thanks to Martial Training?
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If I take 3 levels in fighter, then a level in brawler, do i qualify as a 4th level fighter for weapon specialization thanks to Martial Training?
Yes - Relevant text: "Martial Training (Ex)At 1st level, a brawler counts her total brawler levels as both fighter levels and monk levels for the purpose of qualifying for feats."
Counterpoint:
Hybrid Classes
Most heroes progress along a single path—choosing to become a fearsome fighter, pious cleric, or mighty wizard—but some are drawn to many roads. For them, it can be hard to find a balance between abilities offered by disparate classes. Hybrid classes solve this dilemma by blending features from two classes, adding rules to make them work seamlessly together.Parent Classes: Each of the following classes draws upon two classes to form the basis of its theme. While a character can multiclass with these parent classes, doing so usually results in redundant abilities. Such abilities don't stack unless specified. If a class feature allows the character to make a one-time choice (such as a bloodline), that choice must match similar choices made by the parent classes and vice-versa (such as selecting the same bloodline).
... and a Brawler has Fighter listed as parent.
Counterpoint:
... and a Brawler has Fighter listed as parent.Hybrid Classes
Most heroes progress along a single path—choosing to become a fearsome fighter, pious cleric, or mighty wizard—but some are drawn to many roads. For them, it can be hard to find a balance between abilities offered by disparate classes. Hybrid classes solve this dilemma by blending features from two classes, adding rules to make them work seamlessly together.Parent Classes: Each of the following classes draws upon two classes to form the basis of its theme. While a character can multiclass with these parent classes, doing so usually results in redundant abilities. Such abilities don't stack unless specified. If a class feature allows the character to make a one-time choice (such as a bloodline), that choice must match similar choices made by the parent classes and vice-versa (such as selecting the same bloodline).
... but it's specified.
The martial training text says that a brawler 5 counts as a fighter 5 to qualify for feats.
It does not say that a brawler 5/fighter 3 counts as a fighter 8. His brawler levels are counting as fighter levels does not mean they stack.
Compare it to Improved uncanny dodge text:
If a character already has uncanny dodge from another class, the levels from the classes that grant uncanny dodge stack when determining the minimum rogue level required to flank the character.
That's a specification.
RAI implies that they stack.
There's an old SKR post that basically clarifies rules that function in a parallel way, despite having different wording, function similarly.
This is why every "Improved [combat maneuver]" feat basically has the same prereqs and effect.
In this specific case, for the purpose of qualifying for feats your level counts as fighter levels, they stack but only for feats. That is the specification. There is no rules precedent set that would give a player two different level pools of the same class which would result in lower level to access to feats.
For the purpose of feats:
How many fighter levels does a fighter 3 have? 3.
How many fighter levels does a brawler 1 have? 1.
How many fighter levels does a character with both of these have? 4.
At least, I think that's the most clear and direct way of reading the RAW, but i could be wrong. I'm just here to check if this has been overruled by anything new...
Counterpoint:
... and a Brawler has Fighter listed as parent.Hybrid Classes
Most heroes progress along a single path—choosing to become a fearsome fighter, pious cleric, or mighty wizard—but some are drawn to many roads. For them, it can be hard to find a balance between abilities offered by disparate classes. Hybrid classes solve this dilemma by blending features from two classes, adding rules to make them work seamlessly together.Parent Classes: Each of the following classes draws upon two classes to form the basis of its theme. While a character can multiclass with these parent classes, doing so usually results in redundant abilities. Such abilities don't stack unless specified. If a class feature allows the character to make a one-time choice (such as a bloodline), that choice must match similar choices made by the parent classes and vice-versa (such as selecting the same bloodline).
I don't think you can apply that rule here. Is Martial Training an "redundant ability" according to you?
A "redundant ability" would be the Unarmed Strike damage progression of a Brawler 6/Monk 6, which would not stack.
Interesting.
No. Mark commented in his thread that technically since it doesn't have wording saying to combine levels you don't and you track them separately.
No. Mark commented in his thread that technically since it doesn't have wording saying to combine levels you don't and you track them separately.
"I think technically it only stacks if it says it does, but I usually let it stack anyway in home games. Can't count the same class level twice though, of course (like with attempts to use those animal companion feats in combination with gaining an animal companion to double count levels of the companion class)."
Leading with "I think technically" makes it VERY clear that this isn't even remotely an official ruling.
It's far better support to have a DEV say, yeah that's the rule and this would be a situation it would apply in. Then to say that it does something it doesn't say it does.
It's far better support to have a DEV say, yeah that's the rule and this would be a situation it would apply in. Then to say that it does something it doesn't say it does.
I think it's far worse for a Dev to quickly bash out an answer to a quickest that leads with "I think technically" than for you to look at the text that says it says something it says it does.
That said, I think you're misinterpreting what he wrote.
It's far better support to have a DEV say, yeah that's the rule and this would be a situation it would apply in. Then to say that it does something it doesn't say it does.I think it's far worse for a Dev to quickly bash out an answer to a quickest that leads with "I think technically" than for you to look at the text that says it says something it says it does.
That said, I think you're misinterpreting what he wrote.
Hey Mark, How does having 2 sources of the same class work?
Like a fighter 3 brawler 1, does he count as fighter 4 for things like weapon specialization or is he a fighter 3 and fighter 1?I think technically it only stacks if it says it does, but I usually let it stack anyway in home games.
How am I misinterpreting him? I asked if fighter levels and brawler levels stack to meeting feat prereqs. He said that they don't stack.
Which is exactly what the ability says and the Hybrid classes warn about. You have two tracks of fighter levels for qualifying for feats. Thus a brawler 4 fighter 4 is redundant about which feats it qualifies for. We have a FAQ that says "count as" only stacks when it explicitly says, "this add to existing/ this stacks"
We see the wording of this working in the Brute Vigilante archetype and the magus class,
The brute's unarmed strikes deal damage as if he were a monk of his size and vigilante level. If he has levels in other classes that provide monk advancement for unarmed strike damage, his vigilante level stacks with those levels whenever he is in his vigilante identity.
Starting at 10th level, a magus counts 1/2 his total magus level as his fighter level for the purpose of qualifying for feats. If he has levels in fighter, these levels stack.
The brawler only says this,
At 1st level, a brawler counts her total brawler levels as fighter levels for the purpose of qualifying for feats.
Since it doesn't have the line "if has other fighter levels stack/add them" it means that you don't add them.
Wait, what?
Total brawler levels = 4
+ Fighter levels = 6
= 10 Fighter Levels (as far as prereqs are concerned)
Do people really read it differently?
I mean, if you read that:
Total brawler levels = 4
+ Fighter levels = 4
= 4 Fighter Levels (as far as prereqs are concerned)
Wouldn't you ALSO have to read that:
Total brawler levels = 3
+ Fighter levels = 4
= 3 Fighter Levels (as far as prereqs are concerned)
since they do not stack and Brawler levels OVERRIDE fighter levels?
I mean, it doesn't say choose the highest, it says ONLY brawler levels count?
You can't pick and choose the meaning of it, right?
No, it means total Fighter levels = 4, or, if you want, 3. Brawler doesn't overwrite Fighter, and I have no idea how you reached that conclusion. Brawler levels COUNT AS Fighter levels for Feats and such, but it doesn't specify that they stack, so they don't.
Yeah without text stating they stack, they don't stack for feat preqs, even if they're both "fighter levels". Weird, but not the strangest ruling in PF.
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Right. It says Brawler levels count.
It doesn't say Brawler levels AND Fighter levels count. Therefore, Fighter levels don't count. It is very easy to read that Brawler levels = fighter levels overrides fighter levels. How could you not?
It is as obtuse and ridiculous as saying Brawler 4 = Fighter 4 but Brawler 4 = Fighter 4 + Fighter 4 /= Fighter 8.
It makes zero sense.
Right. It says Brawler levels count.
It doesn't say Brawler levels AND Fighter levels count. Therefore, Fighter levels don't count. It is very easy to read that Brawler levels = fighter levels overrides fighter levels. How could you not?
It is as obtuse and ridiculous as saying Brawler 4 = Fighter 4 but Brawler 4 = Fighter 4 + Fighter 4 /= Fighter 8.
It makes zero sense.
1: In the Hybrid Class entry, it specifically makes note that it is usually a bad idea to multiclass with the parent classes, as many of the benefits DO NOT STACK.
2: The Brawler has no language whatsoever that notes that Martial Training stacks with Fighter levels, it merely allows you, as a Brawler, to qualify for Monk and Fighter Feats and abilities with your Brawler levels. Point of fact, Martial Training doesn't stack with Monk for damn near anything either.
3: If it doesn't say that it stacks, it doesn't. This is one of the cardinal rules the game is built on.
I think the second phrase in Mark's quote ("I usually let it stack anyway in home games") is the example that I would follow for my own home game.
Sure, I'd do the same. But that's houserules.
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I think the second phrase in Mark's quote ("I usually let it stack anyway in home games") is the example that I would follow for my own home game.Sure, I'd do the same. But that's houserules.
Whether or not it's a house rule depends on your GM interpretation of the rules.
In other words, whether or not this stacks of not "RAW" depends on your GM until there is an official FAQ.
If the Slayer didnt have a notification saying that it stacked, it wouldn't, just like the warning at the beginning of the chapter on Hybrid Classes warned you about.
I don't know, the language seems inclusive since the ability treats you as a different class, rather than giving you an effective level.
The difference is subtle, but important. Uncanny Dodge references the opponent's effective rogue level, and has no stipulation on what class it comes from.
Martial Training specifically says treat your level as x. If you already have levels of x, you shouldn't automatically assume that the abilities that function identically (be they intrinsic or not) do not function as written.
To clarify, Uncanny Dodge and/or Sneak Attack require language to allow them to stack across different classes because they aren't themselves class levels. Since you have effective fighter levels, RAI implies that other fighter levels will stack, because you have apples, and a different kind of apple, but they are still apples.
In any case, I would recommend asking the DM before attempting to build a character assuming one rule or the other.
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I have to agree they don't stack. Comparing to the Magus language is pretty compelling.
At my table I would be totally ok, but RAW the answer is No.