Chaos Gods written for Pathfinder; what domains would you use?


Conversions


Like the title says, I'm interested in trying to create deities based on the Chaos Gods of Warhammer Fantasy to my homebrew game.

Specifically, I'm interested in using their oldest fluff, when they were more Chaotic Neutral and it's simply the fact that they're in such a crapsack universe that everyone overindulges and descends into Chaotic Evil madness.

Looking at the online archive for domains references, this would be my opinion on the domains each of the Dark Brothers would offer their worshippers.

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/cleric/domains

Khorne: God of all things relating to Battle and Killing
- Chaos
- Entropy
- Death
- Murder
- Destruction
- Catastrophe
- Hatred
- Rage
- Fire + all Fire Subdomains
- Glory + all Glory Subdomains
- Protection
- Defense
- Strength + all Strength Subdomains
- War + all War Subdomains

Nurgle: God of Life, Death, Decay and Rebirth
- Chaos
- Entropy
- Community
- Family
- Loss
- Death
- Undead
- Healing + all Healing Subdomains
- Plant + all Plant Subdomains
- Earth

Tzeentch: God of Magic and Change
- Chaos
- Whimsy
- Knowledge + all Knowledge Subdomains
- Air
- Fire
- Revolution
- Luck + all Luck Subdomains
- Madness
- Insanity
- Magic + all Magic Subdomains
- Rune + all Rune Subdomains
- Trickery + all Trickery Subdomains
- Tactics

Slaanesh: God of Excess
- Chaos
- Revelry
- Charm + all Charm Subdomains
- Torture
- Cannibalism
- Corruption
- Glory
- Heroism
- Freedom
- Nobility
- Aristocracy
- Leadership
- Resolve
- Greed
- Tactices
- Water + all Water Subdomains


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what about the goodly gods? Sigmar, Mannan, Morr, Ulric, Tahl, Ryha, Myrmidia, Ranald? The orc gods, Gork, Mork? Dwarven gods, Grimnir, Grungni, and Valaya? The elven gods are dicks, forget them.


Cool idea....

But really you do have to be strict... the standard for PF deities is 5 domains and 6-8 subdomains


was hoping the OP would add to.


Don't forget Malal, Chaos God of Anti-Chaos!


Harleequin wrote:

Cool idea....

But really you do have to be strict... the standard for PF deities is 5 domains and 6-8 subdomains

Only if you're submitting an item for the annual amateur competition.

Otherwise you can break any conventions you feel like.

With the Chaos dudes you're pretty good with Chaos and a couple of domains drawn from the entropic side of life, i.e. death, decay, war, disease, rot, madness, anything domain that lives in that neighborhood.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

Death and murder are typically the purview of Khaine.

Khorne is blood for the blood god. And no, the CHaos gods are NOT CN, and never were. Their servants are demons. They have influence over neutral powers is not the same as being neutral.

Delete Protection and Defense from Khorne, along with Entropy. He's a god of tremendous vitality, not entropy. He's also a god of weapons of war...he loathes magic, but loves magic weapons. Delete Fire and delete Glory...he's not an elemental.

Nurgle is not a healer...he allows you to survive disease, he doesn't heal you from it. There's a difference. he just LOVES infecting people.

Delete healing, plant and earth, community and family. Something to do with revelry would be appropriate, he IS the most insanely jolly of the Four. Also, his big thing is survival. Also, he's the most gluttonous of the lot, eating his own children happily.

Tzeentch, just remove the elemental again, he has influence over them from magic. Trickery should be huge for him, that and magic are his two main powers. Tactics, no. That's a war thing. Also, he LOVES hierarchies to exploit, with the never ending claw up the social ladder, he's definitely a god of 'nobles by position', as opposed to 'decadent children of nobility'. His nobles are ruthless, ambitious plotters of power, unlike slaanesh. He disdains the unambitious masses who just want to survive, which is why he and Nurgle are opposites.

Slaanesh is all about pursuit of your own desires. Remove Nobility (aristocracy MIGHt be okay), Heroism, Greed, Freedom, Resolve, Tactics, Torture, Leadership, and Cannibalism (the last is more Nurgle's survive at any price credo), and water. He is most identified with Lust and satisfying base desires. Where Khorne is about vitality rising to the top of the back and only in battle can be found true joy, Slaanessh is about wasting that vitality and delight on pointless hedonism and obsession.

==Aelryinth


Drahliana Moonrunner wrote:

[

Only if you're submitting an item for the annual amateur competition.

MEEOOOOW!


Umbral Reaver wrote:
Don't forget Malal, Chaos God of Anti-Chaos!

Well technically he embodied the self-destructive nature of chaos. Had a crocodile head if memory serves....

Such a shame there were copyright issues with him.....


Aelryinth wrote:


And no, the CHaos gods are NOT CN, and never were.

This topic comes up a lot in the various books over the years. I would definitely NOT classify the Chaos gods as evil. Their alignment is v.difficult to define..... maybe CC ?!?

Also out of all the gods, Khorne has a definite aspect of martial honour to him, so maybe have that reflected in domain choice?

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

Khorne encourages warrior lodges, but he himself is not concerned about honor whatsoever. He is concerned with conflict and war, and getting skulls piled up around his throne.

"Blood for the Blood God! Skulls for the Skull Throne!" is the war cry of Khorne, and has nothing to do with martial honor. That his followers disparage magic use as being for the weak and delight in physical dominance of their foes is not the same as being honorable. The fact you're calling on a god of martial skill and slaughter to help with the hunt is a whole nuther item, and akin to propitiating something you'd rather not offend, just in case.

==Aelryinth


Aelryinth wrote:

And no, the CHaos gods are NOT CN, and never were. Their servants are demons. They have influence over neutral powers is not the same as being neutral.

I agree with this.

In the original Warhammer Fantasy Role Play rulebook from the late 1980's, the alignment range was:

Chaos - Evil - Neutral - Good - Law.

These were individual alignments, not things that could hybridize.

If you had to give the Chaos Gods a Pathfinder alignment based off that scale, it would be Chaotic Evil. This is supported by their consistently destructive behavior, too. But, keep in mind that the universe in which they were created didn't have the Pathfinder/D&D alignment grid, so any attempt to give them such an alignment will have problems.

Aelryinth wrote:
Khorne encourages warrior lodges, but he himself is not concerned about honor whatsoever. He is concerned with conflict and war, and getting skulls piled up around his throne.

I believe that in very early (1980's) fluff, Khorne was described as having some degree of honor, but that was re-written at least 20 years ago.


I was confused by the title and thought I could add the Wormlord. That is not the case. This should be in conversions.

Even if Warhammer had worm people, I think they were added later.

In future, put your mean restrictions in the title please. Thank you.


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It does depend on what version of things you are reading... there are a lot of references that discuss the "positive" aspects of each chaos god...

The canon has been adjusted and changed over the years...

Examples:

"Khorne is the god of anger and destruction, the warrior god of Chaos whose bellows of rage echo throughout time and space. He sits upon a great throne of brass atop a mountainous pile of bleached skulls. Whenever a champion of Khorne is slain in battle his skull is added to the pile, which slowly grows higher and higher. Khorne is a fighting god and his daemons and mortal Champions are amongst the most potent warriors of all. Khorne is a noble warrior who respects strength and bravery, who takes no joy in destroying the weak, and considers the helpless unworthy of his wrath. It is said that fate will spare any brave warrior who calls upon Khorne's name and pledges his soul to the blood god. It is also said that Khorne's daemons will hunt down and destroy any warrior who betrays his honour by killing a helpless innocent or murdering in cold blood. Khorne's great delight is battle and the spilling of blood"

In a similar vein, Tzeentch is viewed as not just the god of deception and trickery but also of hope, evolution and dreams


If you want to read on the positive sides of the chaos gods, I can greatly recommend the books for the Black Crusade RPG, they talk in quite some detail about how a character who isn't "evil" can be a follower of the ruinous powers.


They're called the Ruinous Powers. They seek to consume and bend all to their will. Any that don't, get destroyed. I'm basing off of the books from the 90's through the recent stuff of the End Times books. The new Age of Sigmar has pretty much ruined the game.


Despite the occasional attempts to describe the chaos gods as non-evil, it never actually works in the vast majority of the canon. They are as evil as it gets.


In a lot of the canon, there is talk of them being "primal forces" and not evil.... they just "are".

Evil is a subjective term used by humans and other such creatures, it has no relevance to these gods since they are fundamentally primal in nature.

Bear in mind even to this day, the defining canon on the chaos gods is still considered to be the Realms of Chaos hardback books back in 1988-90 (and worth quite serious money now if you have them - I heard of a mint copy of 'Lost and the Damned' that went for £5000!)


That's what I mean. There is a lot of talk of them being primal forces, but what they are actually described as actively doing is pretty damn evil.

No matter how much people want them to be transcendent beings beyond morality, the poor writing does not hold that up.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

Harleequin wrote:

It does depend on what version of things you are reading... there are a lot of references that discuss the "positive" aspects of each chaos god...

The canon has been adjusted and changed over the years...

Examples:

"Khorne is the god of anger and destruction, the warrior god of Chaos whose bellows of rage echo throughout time and space. He sits upon a great throne of brass atop a mountainous pile of bleached skulls. Whenever a champion of Khorne is slain in battle his skull is added to the pile, which slowly grows higher and higher. Khorne is a fighting god and his daemons and mortal Champions are amongst the most potent warriors of all. Khorne is a noble warrior who respects strength and bravery, who takes no joy in destroying the weak, and considers the helpless unworthy of his wrath. It is said that fate will spare any brave warrior who calls upon Khorne's name and pledges his soul to the blood god. It is also said that Khorne's daemons will hunt down and destroy any warrior who betrays his honour by killing a helpless innocent or murdering in cold blood. Khorne's great delight is battle and the spilling of blood"

In a similar vein, Tzeentch is viewed as not just the god of deception and trickery but also of hope, evolution and dreams

Yeah, that's all written, but doesn't play out in reality. Khorne's followers will slaughter every man, woman, and child in a settlement without batting an eye...the weak are meant to be preyed on, subject to whatever the strong desire. So what was written doesn't bear out in Warhammer's realities.

I've read both of the early books (a friend has them), and they are VERY entertaining. But the simple fact that all their servants are 'demons' should be a clear give-away of their positions. Any 'angelic' servants they have are clearly false and corrupted, and such corruption is plainly visible on the magic/psychic level (Slaanesh's followers often appear inhumanly pure/beautiful, til you look at their souls and see the corruption).

The fact they have influence over non-Evil forces is simply a by-product of how powerful they are. In the Warhammer universe, there is NOTHING more powerful then the Chaos Gods, save perhaps the Emperor channeling the worship of the whole Empire himself. Even the Tyranids aren't stupid enough to plumb the Eye of Chaos, or the Necrons (the Chaos gods have corrupted both that fell into their hands in the past). Slaanesh's birth basically destroyed the entire Eldar civilization in one blow, and destroyed warp travel in the entire galaxy for ten thousand years. Nurgle has been around since the beginning of sentient thought striving to survive. Tzeentch rose with the Emperor, born from the scheming of the ambitious, while Khorne is simply the instinct to fight and dominate made manifest.

In other words, all the other divine forces in the Warhammer universe are required simply to hold them at bay. Individually, none of them hold a candle to the Powers themselves.

But it's still noteworthy that Nurgle invaded Slaanesh's realm and captured the elven goddess of Healing from there, just so he could have someone to test out his diseases on. He is not a healer...he helps you survive, that's all. And the cost to body and soul is going to be...considerable.

==Aelryinth

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

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Umbral Reaver wrote:

That's what I mean. There is a lot of talk of them being primal forces, but what they are actually described as actively doing is pretty damn evil.

No matter how much people want them to be transcendent beings beyond morality, the poor writing does not hold that up.

While it is true that the methods of the Chaos Gods are unremittingly evil, there are definitely apologists for it.

For instance, the main power of the Chaos gods is humanity. Take away humanity, and their power falls rapidly.

Humanity's rise could all be part of the manipulations if the Chaos Gods, given how 'fast' it was. Khorne forced them to have fighting spirit, Tzeentch gave them ambition and cunning, Nurgle gave them tenacity and survivablity, and even Slaanesh is giving them non-conformity and innovation.

Tzeentch, for instance, is considered the great schemer, and from a perspective, he's playing against himself as much as the Emperor or anyone else...he wants to play the game, not win the game.

Khorne has insured that humanity is always ready and able to make war...if they aren't, he punishes them for it. This readiness has enabled humanity to survive in a VERY hostile galaxy.

Nurgle has enabled the quadrillions of humans out there to multiply and spread across the galaxy, to endure countless trials and tribulations, and come back from them.

Slaanesh ensures there's always people who buck the system to get what they want, which prevents apathy and decay by giving an outlet for passions which otherwise would be suppressed and destroyed.

Yes, 'good' things about each god. It's the totally uninhibited extremes each goes to, because they ARE those extremes, which drives makes them the totally insane from a mortal perspective things that they are.

==Aelryinth


It's also debatable whether the chaos gods are responsible for those traits... or are merely feeding on them.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

They are the gathered aggregation of those impulses, not just feeding on them. They ARE them, by canon. They try to encourage MORE of what makes them what they are. Hence why some would argue that they are not trying to destroy humanity, but ensure that their 'food supply' gets ever stronger.

==Aelryinth


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Aelryinth wrote:
Harleequin wrote:


Yeah, that's all written, but doesn't play out in reality. Khorne's followers will slaughter every man, woman, and child in a settlement without batting an eye...the weak are meant to be preyed on, subject to whatever the strong desire. So what was written doesn't bear out in Warhammer's realities.

I've read both of the early books (a friend has them), and they are VERY entertaining. But the simple fact that all their servants are 'demons' should be a clear give-away of their positions. Any 'angelic' servants they have are clearly false and corrupted, and such corruption is plainly visible on the magic/psychic level (Slaanesh's followers often appear inhumanly pure/beautiful, til you look at their souls and see the...

I think with due respect you should go back and read the Realms of Chaos books again and the many White Dwarf's that accompany them!

There have been many references to the non-evil nature of the Chaos gods. For example there were references to worshippers being embraced by Slaanesh down to nothing more than their dedication to enjoying their lives by indulging in alcohol and song! You could never get into a fight in your entire life and Slaanesh couldnt care less!!

In respect to the OP, you are confusing issues:

How the followers of chaos gods choose to interpret their gods beliefs is NOT THE SAME as the canon of the gods themselves.
Deity domains and subdomains are those put forward by the deity according to their beliefs NOT their followers interpretation.

Dogs wag tails..... not the other way around!

In a similar way with modern religions, followers interpret things in varying ways. It doesnt make them "wrong" per se, but it certainly does not define them as "right" either!

So in the case of the Chaos gods, the following would be entirely appropriate possible domain/subdomain choices.

Khorne - Honor
Slaanesh - Love
Nurgle - Decay
Tzeentch - Education

The Chaos gods are not "evil" they just "are"....


Harleequin wrote:

How the followers of chaos gods choose to interpret their gods beliefs is NOT THE SAME as the canon of the gods themselves.

Deity domains and subdomains are those put forward by the deity according to their beliefs NOT their followers interpretation.

You're really stuck on this point and I'm sorry, but the chaos gods have been described taking personal actions (not filtered through the biased outlets of followers) that are hideously and cartoonishly evil, time and time again.

You're desperate for something that is far more nuanced and cleverly written than is actually there. The descriptions you keep repeating do exist, but are far more contradicted than not. GW is not great at consistency.


Addendum: For the most recent comprehensive source on the actions and attitudes of the Chaos gods, see the Liber Chaotica (2006). It is possibly considered the most suitable replacement for Realms of Chaos (removed from canon) since they pulled the book from their line.

The change and consolidation of GW's stance from 'Chaos gods are ambiguously aligned but still evil but we don't want to call them evil outright' to 'irredeemably crazy murderclowns' is pretty clear there. That may be what you're looking for.


Yeah the Chaos Gods are super frikken evil. Like wow. They're even called the Ruinous Powers.

I've read a loooot of Warhammer stuff and I've never heard of anyone being empowered by the Chaos Gods that didnt become super evil or wasn't evil to begin with.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

Well, there's a difference between 'embraced' and 'empowered'.

The Chaos Gods will take ANYONE. It's what they are. But their empowered servants? They are all bad, bad news. YOu don't get the power of the Chaos Gods by being a nice person, unless you're some hapless, ignorant pawn.

==Aelryinth


Trying do define anyone in the warhammer universe as evil is kinda irrelevant. They are all evil. Everyone that we ever read or hear about is doing terrible things. Is chaos doing worse things than everyone else? Maybe, but trying to nail down alignments in warhammer is like trying to eat soup with a fork. Ya you might get a little, but wouldnt it be easier if you put the fork down and drink from the bowl. To the OP, I think your list of domains works with at least some of the published material so do whatever makes you happy because an argument can be made for or against everything on the list.


180degreesturn wrote:
Trying do define anyone in the warhammer universe as evil is kinda irrelevant. They are all evil. Everyone that we ever read or hear about is doing terrible things. Is chaos doing worse things than everyone else? Maybe, but trying to nail down alignments in warhammer is like trying to eat soup with a fork. Ya you might get a little, but wouldnt it be easier if you put the fork down and drink from the bowl. To the OP, I think your list of domains works with at least some of the published material so do whatever makes you happy because an argument can be made for or against everything on the list.

Not necessarily. Warhammer is kinda defined by Law vs Chaos. Though we tend to think of Good vs Evil as the ultimate alignment Warhammer presents a case study in if Law vs Chaos were predominate. Pretty much everyone does "evil" things, but the "heroes" do so lawfully while the "villains" do so chaotically.

Alignment is very important in Warhammer, it's just that the important part is the other axis than we are used to in our world. We define a hero campaign as mostly good characters and a villain campaign as mostly evil characters. They define a hero campaign as mostly lawful characters and a villain campaign as mostly chaotic characters. Our heroes might dip between law and chaotic as the party progresses, but we rarely notice that. Same for Warhammer, only with the other axis.

Or, to put it another way.

HOW DARE YOU INSULT THE ADEPTUS MINISTORUM BY SUGGESTING THEY CARE NOT FOR THE PLIGHT AGAINST HERESY!

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

It's also amusing that Good is the most powerful alignment against Chaos in Warhammer. Multiple instances in supporting material have those pure of heart having more power to resist and dispel the power of Chaos then merely fanatical adherents to doctrine...who also have a tendency to be brittle and fall at inopportune moments.

Indeed, its the characters with firm beliefs AND a conscience who tend to be Chaos' greatest enemies...and hold the Empire/Imperium together.

==Aelryinth


So Chaotic Good and Lawful Evil don't exist. 4th edition stole that from Warhammer.

In Wonderland they keep the queen of hearts around just to show how evil lawfulness is. :p

If I'm wrong about Warhammer, site me an example.


I dunno man. Warhammer is just such a different beast. You can be a bad guy without being under the thrall of Chaos. Lawful Evil is pretty much how Chaos Undivided goes about business too.

There are plenty of Good Guys who dont play by the rules too. Ciaphas Cain, HERO OF THE IMPERIUM, frequently disobeys the chain of command. How he hasn't been blammed in the back of the head surprises me every time.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

Lawful Evil also describes a pretty significant portion of the Empire as well. And the elves/space elves. And at least some of the tomb kings/space tomb kings.


I revised your list slightly. People may disagree with me however, I believe much of the Warhammer(and HW40K) universe is somewhat subjective as a lot of it is left ambiguous.

Khorne: God of all things relating to Battle and Killing
- Chaos
- Entropy(Remove...should be Nurgle)
- Death
- Murder
- Destruction (Seems a bit too impersonal for Khorne, a maybe.)
- Catastrophe (Seems a bit too impersonal for Khorne, a maybe.)
- Hatred
- Rage
- Fire + all Fire Subdomains(Maybe...Kharn used fire, a lot of the Khorne demons have fire themes.)
- Glory + all Glory Subdomains
- Protection & Defense (Seems like many of his favoured servants don't seem to die...a maybe.)
- Strength + all Strength Subdomains
- War + all War Subdomains

Nurgle: God of Life, Death, Decay and Rebirth
- Chaos
- Entropy
- Community
- Family
- Loss (Maybe.)
- Death
- Undead
- Healing + all Healing Subdomains(This would be nice but with a caveat that when you heal someone they get a contagion or sicker in the long run. Seems like you need to make up your own domain.)
- Plant + all Plant Subdomains
- Earth (Maybe remove.)

Tzeentch: God of Magic and Change
- Chaos
- Whimsy
- Knowledge + all Knowledge Subdomains
- Air
- Fire
- Revolution
- Luck + all Luck Subdomains
- Madness
- Insanity
- Magic + all Magic Subdomains
- Rune + all Rune Subdomains
- Trickery + all Trickery Subdomains
- Tactics

Slaanesh: God of Excess
- Chaos
- Revelry
- Charm + all Charm Subdomains
- Torture
- Cannibalism
- Corruption
- Glory
- Heroism
- Freedom
- Nobility
- Aristocracy
- Leadership
- Resolve
- Greed
- Tactices
- Water + all Water Subdomains (Never picked up on the water theme...so I won't rule it out. I am curious now though. ;))


What about the Goodly Gods of Warhammer Fantasy?


Gork/Mork

DAKKA!
MOAR DAKKA!
NEVA ENUFF DAKKA!


I wouldn't put Murder in Khorne. They don't just kill people, they want to fight. They are a bit like the predator too where they want to kill people in a straight up fight that will actually fight back, and are capable of fighting. No lying, no being sneaky, straight up clash on the battlefield and fight is their preference. Murder is a bit too underhanded for Khorne.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

The Beardinator wrote:
What about the Goodly Gods of Warhammer Fantasy?

There's a whole one...the goddess of healing, who was actually originally elven, I believe, and whom the human church of sigmar is trying to replace with a pet saint.

The rest are basically LN or TN to one degree of extremism or another.

==Aelryinth


Ok, the LN Gods of Warhammer Fantasy, Sigmar, Mannan, Moor, Taahl, Ryha, Grungni, Valaya, (though the dwarven gods would really be LG and NG respectively).

I see Myrmidia being more of the LG Paladin-esque deity

The CN Gods, Ulric, Grimnir, Ranald would be the CN (with lean toward humorous mischief) rogue god.

The elven gods, eh, do whatever.

Domains, Favored Weapons, Portfolios, go nuts!


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