Although the Strangler Archetype gives up the Brawler's Unarmed Strike and AC bonus, he retains Martial Training.
At 1st level, a brawler counts her total brawler levels as both fighter levels and monk levels for the purpose of qualifying for feats. She also counts as both a fighter and a monk for feats and magic items that have different effects based on whether the character has levels in those classes (such as Stunning Fist and a monk's robe). This ability does not automatically grant feats normally granted to fighters and monks based on class level, namely Stunning Fist.
So what happens when a Monk 1 / Strangler 6 puts on a Monk's Robe?
Does he gain the Unarmed Strike damage and AC bonus of a 6th level Monk?
Or does Martial Training mean he gets those features as if he was a 12th level Monk?
If you put on monks robe you will count as
Monk 6/ strangler 11
Strangler 11 isn't any different than strangler 6 in this case though. So you'd only get the Unarmed Strike damage and AC bonus of a 6th level Monk, because an 11th level strangler has nothing for those.
I was of the understanding that if you were a Monk 1 / Brawler 6, that your level counted as 7 for things such as Stunning Fist or the IUS feat and class ability of progressing unarmed damage (such that a M1/B3 would do 1d8).
Strangler removes any Unarmed progression, but his Martial Training still leaves his levels counting as Monk for certain things.
So it seems that a Monk 1 / Strangler 6 running around would only do the damage of a 1st level monk, but would be able to perform Stunning fist as a 7th level Monk. Then when something specific such as a Monk's robe is put on, the 6 levels of Strangler count as Monk here too, meaning his unarmed progression jumps to 1(Monk) + 6(effective Monk from Strangler's Martial Training) + 5(effective Monk from robe) = 12th level Monk.
But this sounded overpowered to me, hence why I wondered if I was reading it wrong. I'm not sure how else to interpret the text of Martial Training though.
So what am I missing?
I was of the understanding that if you were a Monk 1 / Brawler 6, that your level counted as 7 for things such as Stunning Fist or the IUS feat and class ability of progressing unarmed damage (such that a M1/B3 would do 1d8).
Strangler removes any Unarmed progression, but his Martial Training still leaves his levels counting as Monk for certain things.
So it seems that a Monk 1 / Strangler 6 running around would only do the damage of a 1st level monk, but would be able to perform Stunning fist as a 7th level Monk. Then when something specific such as a Monk's robe is put on, the 6 levels of Strangler count as Monk here too, meaning his unarmed progression jumps to 1(Monk) + 6(effective Monk from Strangler's Martial Training) + 5(effective Monk from robe) = 12th level Monk.
But this sounded overpowered to me, hence why I wondered if I was reading it wrong. I'm not sure how else to interpret the text of Martial Training though.
So what am I missing?
That is incorrect. You don't add your levels together since it doesn't say you do. You have two progressions. So you're IUS is at 1 and 6. Stunning fist probably actually works because of the way it's worded.
Nope. Counting as Monk levels means you can sub the word "Brawler" whenever you see the word monk. You don't get to combine those levels. AKA calculate all the bonuses and strength of your abilities, like unarmed strike damage, AC, etc. Then you just combine the lists, not add them together.
I understand that the class features do not stack under normal circumstances. That is not the issue I'm seeing.
Under Martial Training, it specifically says that the Brawler can treat her Brawler levels as if they were Fighter and Monk levels for the purposes of qualifying for Feats as well as for Feats and Magic Items whose effects are based on level.
So a Fighter 2 / Brawler 2 would qualify for the Weapon Specialization feat since the 2 Brawler levels are counting as Fighter levels. As far as the Feat is concerned, if you have 2 Fighter levels and then gain 2 more "Fighter" levels, that's 4 Fighter levels. So they DO stack.
Similarly a Monk 1 / Brawler 6 would be able to perform a Stunning Fist 7 times a day because as far as Stunning Fist is concerned, it is recognizing 7 levels of Monk; 1 from the Monk and 6 from the Brawler that is counting as Monk in this case.
Monk's Robe is doing the same thing here. Normally a Monk 1 / Brawler 6 would have similar unarmed class abilities that don't stack, so we just take the higher (Brawler 6 in this case). But for this specific magic item (and others like it), the 6 levels in Brawler are treated as if they were actually Monk levels....meaning the item is acting as if the wearer had 7 levels in Monk; 1 from your actual Monk level and 6 more from the Brawler levels being treated as if they were additional Monk levels.
If a class ability is saying the class counts as another class, then I can only assume that if you have levels in that other class then they add together. For example if "Class X" counted as a cleric for the purposes of channeling, then having 4 levels in "Class X" while you also have 5 levels in Cleric would mean your channeling ability would behave as if you were a 9th level Cleric.
From what you're saying, "Class X" would offer 4 levels of channeling and taking 5 levels in Cleric would offer a separate, non-stacking channel ability at 5th level. Normally this would be true. But because "Class X" is specifically saying that its levels are to be treated as Cleric levels, then we have 4 effective Cleric levels and 5 actual Cleric levels. Anyway I slice that, a Cleric 4 / Cleric 5 is just another way of saying Cleric 9.
If I'm wrong, then I'm just having a hard time seeing it any other way than this. <shrug> Maybe if other wish to chime in and point out what I'm missing here?
Ok, I read up a little more and gave it some more thought and I might see what the difference in our interpretations are. It seems to revolve around what "counts as" means.
If "Class A" can count its levels as if it were "Class B" with regards to a specific feature, what happens when a character has levels in both A and B? Do they stack in this case?
If my 4 levels in "A" can be treated as levels in Cleric with regards to channeling and I have 5 levels in Cleric, does this mean I now can channel as a 9th level cleric?
That is how I'm reading the Martial Training ability of Brawlers anyway. That is why I see a Fighter 4, Brawler 4, or any combination of Fighter and Brawler that equals 4 levels all meeting the prereq for Weapon Specialization.
So am I understanding this incorrectly? And if so, could anyone point out where a rule says it needs to be interpreted otherwise? Or is this just a grey area that's going to differ from person to person?
For me, the interpretation is pretty straightforward. Monk's Robe state
If the wearer has levels in monk, her AC and unarmed damage are treated as a monk of 5 levels higher.
So, take Monk1/Strangler6 and treat it as Monk6/Strangler6 (for purposes of AC and unarmed damage). That is treating the wearer as a monk of 5 levels higher, quite literally.
I understand that there could be other ways to interpret this, including the way you are reading it. But if there are 2 (or more) ways to read something, and 1 way is
But this sounded overpowered to me
and another is a reasonable benefit, much the same as what a normal monk would get, it's usually easy to make a decision.
Saying it is Monk6/Strangler6 is not accounting for Martial Training that says the Strangler counts its levels as Monk levels with regards to certain things such as the Robes or feats like Stunning Fist.
The more general question has to do with "counts as". A Monk1/Brawler6 would be able to perform 7 Stunning Fists per day because the Brawler levels are being treated as 6 additional Monk levels atop the existing Monk1.
So why wouldn't this be the case with the Robes?
Plus no matter what I might consider overpowered or underpowered, it doesn't affect RAW. Personally I think having no size limit to what you can pin is overpowered. But that's just my opinion. I understand that by RAW if you can roll high enough you can pin it. Whatever I think needs to be nerfed or buffed can be done in a home game. But then that's another forum. :)
I'll try one more time. If Monk Robes said something like
"Treat your monk level (or effective monk level) as 5 higher"
I might agree with you. They do not say that though, they say
If the wearer has levels in monk, her AC and unarmed damage are treated as a monk of 5 levels higher.
If a Monk1/AnythingX puts on the robes, look at what their AC and unarmed damage are currently at, and treat it as 5 levels higher. The item doesn't say to add to monk levels, it says to treat the AC and unarmed damage as higher.
I'm not sure I agree here, because you're not taking Martial Training into account.
According to that class ability, whenever you calculate the effects of Monk Robes, you have to include Brawler levels. So a Monk1/BrawlerX would have the AC and Unarmed Damage calculated as if they were 5 levels higher than 1+X. 1 level of "actual Monk" plus X levels of "counts as Monk" is the baseline level we're working from. Then we shift it 5 levels higher because of the Robes. Yes, I understand that normally we don't stack the different abilities, but this is a special case where Brawler = Monk for the purposes of the Robes. So for the calculation, you treat it as Monk1+X and then add 5.
If you don't think it works this way, then why does Martial Training specifically mention a Monk's Robe as an example? There would be no reason to mention that magic item here.
Granted this isn't how other classes treat Monk's Robes, but then those other classes don't have the Martial Training ability. So it makes sense that the Brawler gets a boost here.
I know it was mentioned by Chess Pwn and others that the purpose of Martial Training is to simply take certain Feats or magic items and remove "Fighter" or "Monk" and replace it with "Brawler". But I don't know of any precedent in the rules that would suggest this is what you are supposed to do. We know that Monk1/Brawler6 gets 7 Stunning Fists per day. I'm also pretty sure that a Fighter2/Brawler2 qualifies for Weapon Specialization or that a Monk2/Brawler7 can pick up a Feat requiring 9 levels of Monk.
So we know that "count as" doesn't mean "replace". It means "add to". Just like if "Class A" had an ability that says its levels "count as" cleric levels with regards to channeling. "A" doesn't have the channel ability itself, but levels in it count as Cleric levels, so you add them to your Cleric levels when calculating how many d6's you roll. Any number of Prestige classes work this way too, building off a caster's spell progression.
For the purposes of qualifying for Feats OR for calculating the effects of Feats/Magic items (that are based off of levels in Fighter or Monk), the Brawler includes his levels in that calculation. That is what Martial Training is telling me to do.
Ok, I read up a little more and gave it some more thought and I might see what the difference in our interpretations are. It seems to revolve around what "counts as" means.
If "Class A" can count its levels as if it were "Class B" with regards to a specific feature, what happens when a character has levels in both A and B? Do they stack in this case?
If my 4 levels in "A" can be treated as levels in Cleric with regards to channeling and I have 5 levels in Cleric, does this mean I now can channel as a 9th level cleric?
That is how I'm reading the Martial Training ability of Brawlers anyway. That is why I see a Fighter 4, Brawler 4, or any combination of Fighter and Brawler that equals 4 levels all meeting the prereq for Weapon Specialization.
So am I understanding this incorrectly? And if so, could anyone point out where a rule says it needs to be interpreted otherwise? Or is this just a grey area that's going to differ from person to person?
You're reading it incorrectly. We have a FAQ that explicitly answer that if you're a 5th level cleric and can channel as a 4th level cleric with another class, that you have two pools of channel energy. One as strong as a 4th level cleric and one as strong as a 5th level cleric. And you track the uses per day separately.
So a fighter 4 or a brawler 4 can qualify for weapon specialization. But a fighter 3 brawler 1 is only a 1st level fighter and a 3rd level fighter, so he doesn't qualify.
This is why you look at your class completely separate when determining things that you "count as" because they work completely separately. We know this is the intent because in the ACG they say multiclassing with a parent class may result in redundant features/abilities. Like how multi-classing fighter and brawler gives you 2 fighter levels to qualify for feat, but don't stack to qualify for feats.
Further in the "ask Mark" thread Mark answer this question here and says, "I think technically it only stacks if it says it does, but I usually let it stack anyway in home games." Which isn't 100% official, but is a strong indicator of what is likely the correct answer.
I'm not sure I agree here, because you're not taking Martial Training into account.
According to that class ability, whenever you calculate the effects of Monk Robes, you have to include Brawler levels. So a Monk1/BrawlerX would have the AC and Unarmed Damage calculated as if they were 5 levels higher than 1+X. 1 level of "actual Monk" plus X levels of "counts as Monk" is the baseline level we're working from. Then we shift it 5 levels higher because of the Robes. Yes, I understand that normally we don't stack the different abilities, but this is a special case where Brawler = Monk for the purposes of the Robes. So for the calculation, you treat it as Monk1+X and then add 5.
If you don't think it works this way, then why does Martial Training specifically mention a Monk's Robe as an example? There would be no reason to mention that magic item here.
Granted this isn't how other classes treat Monk's Robes, but then those other classes don't have the Martial Training ability. So it makes sense that the Brawler gets a boost here.
I know it was mentioned by Chess Pwn and others that the purpose of Martial Training is to simply take certain Feats or magic items and remove "Fighter" or "Monk" and replace it with "Brawler". But I don't know of any precedent in the rules that would suggest this is what you are supposed to do. We know that Monk1/Brawler6 gets 7 Stunning Fists per day. I'm also pretty sure that a Fighter2/Brawler2 qualifies for Weapon Specialization or that a Monk2/Brawler7 can pick up a Feat requiring 9 levels of Monk.
So we know that "count as" doesn't mean "replace". It means "add to". Just like if "Class A" had an ability that says its levels "count as" cleric levels with regards to channeling. "A" doesn't have the channel ability itself, but levels in it count as Cleric levels, so you add them to your Cleric levels when calculating how many d6's you roll. Any number of Prestige classes work this way too, building off a caster's spell progression.
For the...
This is incorrect.
Martial training lets you sub in the word Brawler when it says Fighter or Monk.SO lets see the monk robes say for your brawler.
When worn, this simple brown robe confers great ability in unarmed combat. If the wearer has levels in Brawler, her AC and unarmed damage is treated as a Brawler of five levels higher. If donned by a character with the Stunning Fist feat, the robe lets her make one additional stunning attack per day.
So since you're a brawler your martial training lets it read like this. So it increases you strangler's AC and unarmed damage as 5 higher. so it goes from nothing to still nothing.
But since you have a monk level it also lets your monk count his features as 5 higher and so you'll use those values as they are higher than nothing.
Prestige classes and some multi-classes DO increase other classes features. THEY EXPLICITLY SAY THIS.
en a new arcane trickster level is gained, the character gains new spells per day as if she had also gained a level in a spellcasting class she belonged to before adding the prestige class. She does not, however, gain other benefits a character of that class would have gained, except for additional spells per day, spells known (if she is a spontaneous spellcaster), and an increased effective level of spellcasting. If a character had more than one spellcasting class before becoming an arcane trickster, she must decide to which class she adds the new level for purposes of determining spells per day.
and
If the zealot gets a sneak attack bonus from another source, the bonuses on damage stack.
and
he brute's unarmed strikes deal damage as if he were a monk of his size and vigilante level. If he has levels in other classes that provide monk advancement for unarmed strike damage, his vigilante level stacks with those levels whenever he is in his vigilante identity.
So the Brute vigilante's ability specifically calls out that it stacks, so it does, but no other class says it stacks, so they don't.
My opinion is based off guesswork, so take it for what you will.
The FAQ chess posted isn't a similar case to what we are talking about here (monk robe). It's more applicable for feats that say "fighter 4" like weapon spec. For a monk's robe you would pool brawler and monk levels and add 5.
I think the effective wording taking the brawler ability into account should be, "if the wearer has levels in (brawler) her ac and unarmed damage are treated as a monk of 5 levels higher (than her brawler level)" because the first instance of the word "monk" is the part where the magic item has a different effect based on whether or not you have levels in monk, whereas the second instance is the benefit the item provides.
your guesswork is incorrect.
you don't suddenly combine stuff for no reason.
The writers had two options.
option one was to rewrite every feat and item that a brawler could use and specifically say that a brawler can also use those feats or items.
Or they could say that anywhere you see the work monk you sub in brawler. This requires just a few lines to write and doesn't change anything in old book or require you to reprint those feats saying a brawler can take them.
They chose option 2.
My opinion is based off guesswork, so take it for what you will.
The FAQ chess posted isn't a similar case to what we are talking about here (monk robe). It's more applicable for feats that say "fighter 4" like weapon spec. For a monk's robe you would pool brawler and monk levels and add 5.
I think the effective wording taking the brawler ability into account should be, "if the wearer has levels in (brawler) her ac and unarmed damage are treated as a monk of 5 levels higher (than her brawler level)" because the first instance of the word "monk" is the part where the magic item has a different effect based on whether or not you have levels in monk, whereas the second instance is the benefit the item provides.
Actually your "guessword" is exactly right! This is the very point that I think Chess Pwn and others are missing. We are not talking about trying to stack two separate-but-similar class abilities.
We are talking about a separate ability altogether; namely Martial Training. It specifically says that a Brawler gets to count their levels as if they were a Fighter and/or Monk for the purposes of:
#1 Qualifying for the prereq's of Feats, and
#2 Calculating the effects of Feats and Magic Items (specifically Stunning Fist and a Monk's Robe).
So this isn't a case at all about trying to stack two things that aren't stackable.
This is about how the Brawler's ability works. His levels "count as" that of a Monk when he puts the Robe on. So a Monk1/Brawler6 has his AC and Unarmed Damage calculated as if he counted as a 7th level Monk.
Maybe what is confusing is that the Brawler already has an Unarmed Damage progression and so people think we are trying to combine them. But if another class without such a progression had Martial Training, their classes would "count as" as well. This is why I gave my example of "Class A".
"Class A" doesn't have the channel ability. They are not trying to stack it with a Cleric's channel ability or a Paladin's. But in this example we'll say they DO have this ability called "Heightened Conduit" which says that "Class A" levels count as Cleric levels for the purposes of Channeling. So if you have 4 levels in "Class A", and nothing else, then this ability does nothing as your Channel ability isn't "0", but "-". The same is if you have levels in any other class but Cleric. But once you take a level in Cleric and attain the Channel class feature, now your "Class A" levels are counting as Cleric for this purpose. Now your 4 levels are adding to your levels in Cleric to calculate just how many d6's you roll.
This is exactly how the Loremaster works with his Spells per Day feature. His levels count as an existing class's Spell progression.
And this is how I'm reading Martial Training working for the Brawler. I thought maybe I was seeing it wrong because it seemed overpowered to me. But thus far in what I've seen posted here or elsewhere, I haven't been convinced that I am. Stunning Fist and others treat it this way. Magic Items must also.
your guesswork is incorrect.
you don't suddenly combine stuff for no reason.
The writers had two options.
option one was to rewrite every feat and item that a brawler could use and specifically say that a brawler can also use those feats or items.Or they could say that anywhere you see the work monk you sub in brawler. This requires just a few lines to write and doesn't change anything in old book or require you to reprint those feats saying a brawler can take them.
They chose option 2.
This is the crux of the issue; how to interpret what they mean by "counts as".
You are saying it means replacing anywhere you find "Fighter" or "Monk" and substituting in "Brawler".
I am saying it means that the existing Brawler levels you have are in addition to whatever Fighter or Monk levels you have.
We have precedent of my interpretation with regards to various class features such as "Spells per Day" that many Prestige Classes have. There may even be others that I can't think of off the top of my head.
Are there any precedent cases that support your interpretation?
Because this would also affect how Stunning Fist works too. Does a Monk4/Brawler4 get to use it 4 times per day (your interpretation) or 8 times (my interpretation)?
Not meaning to berate this, but another thought that occurred to me outside of the edit window:
If the text for Martial Training said something akin to "The brawler uses her Brawler levels in place of a Fighter's or Monk's when qualifying for Feats or calculating the effects of Feats and Magic Items...",
then I'd be inclined to agree with the interpretation of swapping out "Fighter" or "Monk" with "Brawler".
But this isn't what it says. It says those levels "count as"...which I can only take to mean "are treated as", which is just another way of saying "are in addition to" (existing levels).
how do you see the OFFICIAL FAQ and a dev comment and still feel that you're correct?
This is the crux of the issue; how to interpret what they mean by "counts as".You are saying it means replacing anywhere you find "Fighter" or "Monk" and substituting in "Brawler".
I am saying it means that the existing Brawler levels you have are in addition to whatever Fighter or Monk levels you have.
We have precedent of my interpretation with regards to various class features such as "Spells per Day" that many Prestige Classes have. There may even be others that I can't think of off the top of my head.
Are there any precedent cases that support your interpretation?
Because this would also affect how Stunning Fist works too. Does a Monk4/Brawler4 get to use it 4 times per day (your interpretation) or 8 times (my interpretation)?
Are there precedents that support my case? ARE THERE PRECEDENTS THAT SUPPORT MY CASE? DID YOU EVEN READ THE FAQ AND POST I LINKED?
The prestige classes EXPLICITLY STATE THEY STACK. Some increase your fighter levels, BECAUSE THEY SPECIFICALLY STATE THAT IF YOU HAVE FIGHTER LEVELS THE LEVELS OF THE PRESTIGE CLASS STACK WITH THOSE. SNEAK ATTACK SPECIFICALLY STATE THAT IT STACKS WITH OTHER SOURCES, as like the FAQ states, it needed this wording to stack, otherwise it wouldn't stack like channel energy. This follows the FAQ that says for anything to stack they'd need to explicitly state they stack, otherwise they don't and are treated separately. The fact that EVERYTHING that channels counts as a cleric for their channel AND YET EXPLICITLY THOSE LEVELS DON'T STACK shows that if you just "count as" doesn't let you stack up on stuff. Mark commented that the rules are that a brawler 3 fighter 1 wouldn't qualify for weapon specialization by the rules. Because you'd need the ability to say you add your levels together.
A spellcaster multi-classing into another spellcaster class doesn't add their spells per day together. Sorcerer and Bloodrager don't add their levels together for bloodline powers. A class getting evasion twice doesn't upgrade to Improved Evasion you just have evasion twice. But having uncanny dodge twice does stack up to improved uncanny dodge because it specifically says it does.
Stunning fist probably actually works because of the way it's worded.
I said that because the way stunning fist is worded that it works. You can use it one time for every monk/brawler level. It doesn't sum up those levels to determine anything.
how do you see the OFFICIAL FAQ and a dev comment and still feel that you're correct?
You keep bringing up the FAQ, but it doesn't apply to the topic we're discussing. No one is trying to say that the Brawler's Unarmed Damage Progression should stack with the Monk's Unarmed Damage Progression. That is a non-issue, because we're not talking about the Brawler's Unarmed Damage Progression at all. You need to divorce this concept from your mind, because this is not what we're talking about here.
The crux of the issue is what does Martial Training's "count as" mean? You are insisting that it means to "take the place of". But where is the precedent that says you must treat it that way? If they wanted it to "take the place of", then it would say "take the place of". But it doesn't. It says "counts as"...which I can only interpret as meaning it is "treated as". If your 4 levels in Brawler are treated as Monk levels and you have 4 more Monk levels, then you have an effective 8 levels in Monk.
Assume for a moment that the Brawler never had any Unarmed Damage Progression. He still has this thing called Martial Training that is treating his levels in Brawler as if they were Monk levels for certain conditions. So if a Monk4/Brawler4 is under one of those conditions, then he is effectively a Monk4/Monk4, which is really just another way of saying he is a Monk8.
This has absolutely nothing to do with Unarmed Damage Progression. So I'm not sure why you keep pointing to a FAQ that has nothing to do with stacking (or not stacking) similar abilities. Martial Training is not a similar ability to a Monk's Unarmed Damage or AC progression.
A monk may attempt a stunning attack a number of times per day equal to his monk level...
How many times per day can a Monk4/Brawler4 perform a Stunning Fist?
8
Why?
Because he is considered to have 8 levels of Monk.
You understand this concept here. So why are you not understanding it for a Monk's Robe? What is the AC and Unarmed Damage that the Robe grants?
...her AC and unarmed damage is treated as a monk of five levels higher.
A Monk4/Brawler4 has 8 levels in Monk, just like he did a moment ago when we talked about Stunning Fist. So the Robe will treat him equal to a Monk13 regarding his AC bonus and Unarmed damage.
This is all Martial Training is saying. Nobody is talking about the Brawler's separate, non-stacking Unarmed Damage Progression.
The robes do not say to add up all your monk levels and calculate your ac and damage though. They say to treat your ac and armor as 5 higher. Whatever bonus you are currently getting, treat it as 5 higher.
"...her AC and unarmed damage is treated as a monk of five levels higher."
What level Monk are you basing this off of? In the case of a Brawler4/Monk4 you have 8 Monk levels here. Then you are adding 5 to that from the Robe and seeing what the AC Bonus and Unarmed Damage are.
If Brawler isn't being factored in, then why does the Martial Training ability specifically reference the Robes? There's be no reason to.
You are incorrect. If you fail to see how the FAQ and Mark's comment applies then there's no point in me discussing further. Here's a last try.
monk 4/monk 4 is you are monk 4 twice. Not monk 8 once. No where does it say to add those together, that they stack together. But we have a FAQ and Mark's post saying that unless something specifically says it stacks, it doesn't stack. So unless it explicitly said,
"She also counts as both a fighter and a monk for feats and magic items that have different effects based on whether the character has levels in those classes, if she has levels in either of those classes she adds her adds her level to any levels of fighter or monk she might have for feats and magic items"
stunning fist works because it increases by 1 for each monk level you have, it's not doing a sum or total. So monk 4/monk 4 is 8 levels of monk which is what stunning fist cares about. But it isn't an 8th level monk, which is what other stuff cares about.
"...her AC and unarmed damage is treated as a monk of five levels higher."
What level Monk are you basing this off of? In the case of a Brawler4/Monk4 you have 8 Monk levels here. Then you are adding 5 to that from the Robe and seeing what the AC Bonus and Unarmed Damage are.
If Brawler isn't being factored in, then why does the Martial Training ability specifically reference the Robes? There's be no reason to.
Nope, you'd have 4 levels of monk twice. So if you were Brawler4/Monk4 then the robes would make you Brawler9/Monk9 The brawler is being factored in because those brawler levels are increasing for US and AC.
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Nope, you'd have 4 levels of monk twice. So if you were Brawler4/Monk4 then the robes would make you Brawler9/Monk9 The brawler is being factored in because those brawler levels are increasing for US and AC.
+1
If a player came to a table with the position that it was Monk 8, I'd reject that interpretation and unless he had something directly from a developer specifically addressing the question, the question would be settled.
The FAQ you keep referencing has to do with similar abilities such as Sneak Attack or Channeling or Spellcasting. This discussion does not have anything to do with similar abilities.
Martial Training and Monk Unarmed Damage are not similar abilities. So I don't understand why you keep referencing the FAQ. This discussion is not, nor ever was, about similar abilities stacking. So your argument is moot here.
The discussion is about HOW Brawler levels "count as" Monk levels. You are ok with them stacking with regards to Stunning Fist, but then you change your position and don't allow them to stack for the Robes. I'm not sure why you do this.
Also, when I create a 1st level Fighter and then reach 2nd level, if I take another level in Fighter, I am not a Fighter1/Fighter1. I am a Fighter2. This is how it works. You add together levels of the same class. This is why a Brawler2/Fighter2 qualifies for Weapon Specialization. Because in this case the 2 levels in Brawler count as Fighter levels. So you have 4 fighter levels....which is exactly what you need to qualify for Wpn Spec.
Martial Training, Unarmed Damage Progression, and AC bonus are separate and distinct abilities; like Sneak Attack and Weapon Training. I do not see a reason why they shouldn't interact under the conditions given to us in the rules.
Nope, you'd have 4 levels of monk twice. So if you were Brawler4/Monk4 then the robes would make you Brawler9/Monk9 The brawler is being factored in because those brawler levels are increasing for US and AC.+1
If a player came to a table with the position that it was Monk 8, I'd reject that interpretation and unless he had something directly from a developer specifically addressing the question, the question would be settled.
Having 4 levels of monk twice renders Martial Training useless. There is no reason why a class ability should be rendered useless if it's not facing a similar ability in another class.
If it TRULY WAS just 4 levels of Monk twice, then you could never say a Brawler4/Monk4 gets 8 Stunning Fists per day. Getting 4 from "counts as Monk" and 4 from "actual Monk" means you are faced with two similar abilities from two different classes, which won't stack per the FAQ.
And yet everyone here so far has agreed that B4/M4 would get 8 uses per day.
So on some level you are acknowledging that the levels DO stack....before turning around and saying they don't really for the Robes.
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Owner - D20 Hobbies
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you are acknowledging that the levels DO stack....before turning around and saying they don't really for the Robes.
Totally not what everyone is saying.
Basically, unless you bring some new evidence or a developer comment to bear there isn't much to do about the difference in RAW interpretation.
So either you accept that when introducing your RAW interpretation, you will meet some degree of table variance. Or you choose your GM to suit your RAW interpretation.
As a note, technically stunning fist doesn't stack. It works like channel energy. You have two separate pools, how often you can stunning fist as a monk and how often you can stunning fist as a brawler.
It just so happens that since none of Stunning Fist's effects care about your class level it doesn't actually matter which one you're using at any given time.
Also I'd say a Monk 4/Brawler 4 could Stunning Fist 9 timess a day, not 8.
Kazaan, excellent point regarding #2. This is exactly the precedent I was looking for in a counterargument on this issue and it makes sense. All the apples and oranges aside, I will be able to cite this to my PFS players now.
Thank you for a direct reference. :)
As a note, technically stunning fist doesn't stack. It works like channel energy. You have two separate pools, how often you can stunning fist as a monk and how often you can stunning fist as a brawler.
It just so happens that since none of Stunning Fist's effects care about your class level it doesn't actually matter which one you're using at any given time.
Also I'd say a Monk 4/Brawler 4 could Stunning Fist either 9 or 10 times a day, depending on your reading, not 8.
Good point.
As a note, technically stunning fist doesn't stack. It works like channel energy. You have two separate pools, how often you can stunning fist as a monk and how often you can stunning fist as a brawler.
It just so happens that since none of Stunning Fist's effects care about your class level it doesn't actually matter which one you're using at any given time.
Also I'd say a Monk 4/Brawler 4 could Stunning Fist 9 timess a day, not 8.
Uhhh, no, Stunning Fist isn't Channel Energy. You get only one pool, and here's how it's calculated:
You may attempt a stunning attack once per day for every four levels you have attained (but see Special)...
Special: A monk receives Stunning Fist as a bonus feat at 1st level, even if he does not meet the prerequisites. A monk may attempt a stunning attack a number of times per day equal to his monk level, plus one more time per day for every four levels he has in classes other than monk.
So, in normal circumstances, it is 1/day per 4 class levels. If you have a level (or more) in Monk, it is 1/day per Monk level, plus 1/day per 4 class levels besides Monk.
This means with the Monk 4/Brawler 4 example, I would have 8 uses per day, as I have 4 Monk levels, and 4 Brawler levels (which count as Monk levels for the purposes of calculating Stunning Fist attempts per day).
Channel Energy has that clause and FAQ because there are multiple means to expend Channel Energy; for example, a 4th level Paladin with a dip in Cleric would have 2 means to utilize Channel Energy. The first is by spending 2 Lay On Hands, channeling as a 4th level Paladin. The second is by spending a Channel Energy usage from his 1 level Cleric ability. Some of them are calculated separately. Because they use different statistics and different resources, they are classified differently.
Stunning Fist isn't that way; it has one calculation (per day usage and DC), and one means to acquire it. It can only be taken and used if you possess the feat, and it can only be charged based on your Wisdom modifier and your character level, with an asterisk for Monk levels counting as X, instead of 0.25X. It's not some "I can get it X way instead of Y way," or "I can have it be based on X instead of Y." It is X, and only X, for all subjects in relation to it.
you can't count a level twice for stuff. So you can't count the brawler levels as monk levels and as non-monk levels.
you can't count a level twice for stuff. So you can't count the brawler levels as monk levels and as non-monk levels.
When did I do that?
There is an FAQ that says it is impossible to advance a class ability you do not possess. Such as if your a pure fighter and take a PrC that advances spell casting you do not suddenly GET spell casting.
You Brawler archetype gave up the HTH and AC bonus. Because of that the robe cannot advance them. It CAN advance the HTH and AC bonus of your 1 level of monk since that class DOES have those features.
you can't count a level twice for stuff. So you can't count the brawler levels as monk levels and as non-monk levels.When did I do that?
Someone had been posting pretty good stuff, but they were saying stunning fist would have 9 uses. But all of his posts are now gone from the thread.
There is an FAQ that says it is impossible to advance a class ability you do not possess. Such as if your a pure fighter and take a PrC that advances spell casting you do not suddenly GET spell casting.
You Brawler archetype gave up the HTH and AC bonus. Because of that the robe cannot advance them. It CAN advance the HTH and AC bonus of your 1 level of monk since that class DOES have those features.
That poses an interesting question regarding the Robes then. Are they advancing an already existing ability? Or are they granting an ability?
I've noticed that the text doesn't say that the wearer is treated "as if HER monk abilities were 5 levels higher." It says she is now being treated "as A monk of five levels higher."
Not sure how important that is.
I bring this up because the wording for Monk's Robe differs from the wording for other items such as Robe of Arcane Heritage or Bane Baldric which both specify HER levels are being increased.