Enchant Improvised Weapons

[Diaz Ex Machina]

Q: Is it possible to enchant a mundane item (ie a mug) with weapon enchantments?

I'm going to play a cleric of Cayden Cailean in RotRL, and I've picked the Humble Beginnings trait (from Varisia, Birthplace of Legends), which lets me use a mundane object as a weapon as if having the Catch Off-Guard feat. He will begin play with no weapons or armor, only the cleric's kit, traveler's outfit, and a mug, and I was thinking about playing the whole AP using that mug as my main weapon, instead of buying a "real one" as soon as possible. Do you think it is a good idea? The mug can be enchanted like a normal weapon to make it for example a "mug +1 undead bane"?

Thanks for your time :)

[Mjolbeard89]

It should be possible as is, but would you consider going Warpriest instead? That way you would get:

1) Weapon damage based on level rather than weapon type, which scales up throughout the life of the character

2) Free weapon focus on the mug as your sacred weapon

3) The ability to put a free enhancement on the sacred weapon you chose at 1st level, along with the ability to add abilities to it (though Bane is unfortunately not an option)

Plus you'd still be using the same spell list, you'd get to pick a "domain" in the form of the Warpriest's blessings, and you'd get a few free bonus combat feats at level 3 and every 3 after. Not sure if it fits the flavor of your character perfectly, but it's an option.

[Aelryinth]

IT would be possible, it's just most people would be unable to make use of it, since it's not a weapon to them.

make sure you make it out of something useful!

==Aelryinth

[Mjolbeard89]

Aelryinth wrote:

make sure you make it out of something useful!

Adamantine Mug: Useful in a fight, but makes the ale taste a bit off... XD

[Brf]

Quote:

Only a masterwork weapon can become a magic weapon

so that mug would have to be a masterwork weapon mug.

[James Risner]

There is no such thing as a masterwork improvised weapon, so there is no enchanted improvised weapon.

[Aelryinth]

Shields aren't masterwork weapons, either, just masterwork armor. And you can make a mug masterwork. So, yeah, you can totally do this.

And adamantine outside and a liner on the inside for your booze is totally a thing.

==Aelryinth

[Imbicatus]

Aelryinth wrote:

Shields aren't masterwork weapons, either, just masterwork armor. And you can make a mug masterwork. So, yeah, you can totally do this.

And adamantine outside and a liner on the inside for your booze is totally a thing.

==Aelryinth

Shields have a line that they can be enchanted as weapons separately. Mugs don't.

[James Risner]

Imbicatus wrote:

Aelryinth wrote:

Shields aren't masterwork weapons, either, just masterwork armor. And you can make a mug masterwork. So, yeah, you can totally do this.

Shields have a line that they can be enchanted as weapons separately. Mugs don't.

Plus there are specific boons that provide (in PFS) masterwork improvised weapons. If you could "just do it" the boon wouldn't need to be there.

[Chess Pwn]

There's a rogue archetype, Makeshift Scrapper, that lets you give an improvised weapon an enhancement bonus as a swift action.

[Aelryinth]

Imbicatus wrote:

Aelryinth wrote:

Shields aren't masterwork weapons, either, just masterwork armor. And you can make a mug masterwork. So, yeah, you can totally do this.

And adamantine outside and a liner on the inside for your booze is totally a thing.

==Aelryinth

Shields have a line that they can be enchanted as weapons separately. Mugs don't.

That line has nothing to do with shields being masterwork weapons.

Shields can be made masterwork shields, but not masterwork weapons (i.e. the +1 to hit).

They STILL can be enchanted as weapons, even without the masterwork bonus...proving that you don't need to be a 'masterwork weapon' to get an enhancement...you need to be masterwork (which follows through for all other magic items).

The 'separately' language is there for a specific purpose ... enhancing a shield as a weapon does NOT incur a +50% surcharge that normally happens when you stack magical effects. They are determined 'separately'. Without that language, costs would rise.

The control factor on the mugs is not everyone can use them as a decent weapon. But ANYONE can use improvised weapons, just at a penalty. So, anything masterwork can potentially be a weapon, just not a very good one, and since there primary ability is NOT being a weapon, they don't get a +1 TH bonus if masterwork.

And btw, there already exists a magic mug that is enchanted as a magic weapon, so the bird has already flown the coop.

==Aelryinth

[Claxon]

Quote:

CAILEAN FIGHTING TANKARD PRICE

10,301 GP
SLOT none CL 10th WEIGHT 2 lbs.
AURA moderate conjuration

This steel tankard functions as a +1 light hammer. Worshipers of
Cayden Cailean are automatically proficient with it. The interior of
the tankard contains six identical extradimensional spaces. Each
space can hold 1 dose of a different potable liquid of up to 1/2
cubic foot in volume (including potions, but not poisons). Liquid
never sloshes out of the these spaces accidentally (though it often
appears ready to do so), and when the wielder drinks from the
tankard, it provides the drink from the desired extradimensional
pocket (or a random pocket, if the wielder has no preference).
CONSTRUCTION REQUIREMENTS COST 5,301 GP
Craft Magic Arms and Armor, Craft Wondrous Item, secret chest

You don't need an improvised weapon.

And as a GM I have ruled that improvised weapons can't be enchanted.

Basically, enchanted weapons must first be masterwork weapons. Masterwork weapons require that you specifically make the item to be a masterwork weapon, which would make it no longer count as a improvised weapon.

You can have your mug weapon, it's just not an improvised mug weapon anymore.

[Aelryinth]

That's not the rules, but it is definitely workable.

Note the 10, 3 0 1 price. They paid the +300 gp for it to be a masterwork weapon!

==Aelryinth

[Aelryinth]

Diaz Ex Machina wrote:

Aelryinth wrote:

And btw, there already exists a magic mug that is enchanted as a magic weapon, so the bird has already flown the coop.

==Aelryinth

Where have you found that magic mug?

You hast been ninja'd. See post above yours.

==Aelryinth

[Diaz Ex Machina]

I see.

From what I've understand, the only limitation in making a magic battle mug is that the enchanter must have both Craft Magic Arms and Armor, and Craft Wondrous Item.

Now I'm thinking of a magical battle mug that can convert any liquid to beer.

[James Risner]

Claxon wrote:

You can have your mug weapon, it's just not an improvised mug weapon anymore.

Aelryinth wrote:

Note the 10, 3 0 1 price. They paid the +300 gp for it to be a masterwork weapon!

Both of those match my RAW exactly.

You can't have an improvised enchanted weapon.

You can have a 300 gp weapon Mug and enchant it.

[Imbicatus]

James Risner wrote:

Claxon wrote:

You can have your mug weapon, it's just not an improvised mug weapon anymore.

Aelryinth wrote:

Note the 10, 3 0 1 price. They paid the +300 gp for it to be a masterwork weapon!

Both of those match my RAW exactly.

You can't have an improvised enchanted weapon.

You can have a 300 gp weapon Mug and enchant it.

Actually, it was a 1 gp weapon Mug that was made masterwork for 300 GP and then enchanted.

[Claxon]

Imbicatus wrote:

James Risner wrote:

Claxon wrote:

You can have your mug weapon, it's just not an improvised mug weapon anymore.

Aelryinth wrote:

Note the 10, 3 0 1 price. They paid the +300 gp for it to be a masterwork weapon!

Both of those match my RAW exactly.

You can't have an improvised enchanted weapon.

You can have a 300 gp weapon Mug and enchant it.

Actually, it was a 1 gp weapon Mug that was made masterwork for 300 GP and then enchanted.

Exactly. It is a mug weapon, not an improvised weapon which is an important distinction. Because it doesn't work with catch-off guard or anything similar that requires an improvised weapon.

[Imbicatus]

It's actually a light hammer that was reskinned as a mug. The cost and weapon profile suggest it was priced as a hammer from the beginning, and the mug is a cosmetic effect.

[Claxon]

Imbicatus wrote:

It's actually a light hammer that was reskinned as a mug. The cost and weapon profile suggest it was priced as a hammer from the beginning, and the mug is a cosmetic effect.

Indeed, and that's fine. We now have Battle Mugs, they simply function as light hammers with all respects except you can also drink from it.

[anthonydido]

There's a pun in there somewhere about being "hammered"

[Mjolbeard89]

anthonydido wrote:

There's a pun in there somewhere about being "hammered"

*Rimshot*

- OR -

*Rimshot*

[Aelryinth]

It probably applies the Nauseated condition on a crit...

:)

==Aelryinth

[My Self]

It's not possible to enchant an improvised weapon without a special class feature or spell. However, I'd totally houserule that you could, since the investment that goes into making improvised weapons viable is a country mile beyond making a Greatsword decent. A Greatsword requires one feat (Power Attack), or two, if you're not proficient with Martial weapons. Improvised weapons require Power Attack, Catch Off-Guard or Throw Anything, and Improvised Weapon Mastery. By 8th level, you've managed to break even with a plain, non-Masterwork, non-enchanted Greatsword, after spending 1-2 more feats than the Greatsword user did. And you don't have access to Fighter Weapon Training, any of the Gorum weapon feats, anything that requires Weapon Focus, Improved Critical, etc. Your weapon is probably also flimsier than a Greatsword. The only edge you have on the Greatsword user is that your weapon can be found anywhere, and can do any damage type.

[johnnythexxxiv]

I mean, masterwork transformation is a thing so you can always take the mug and make it masterwork and then enchant it normally.

[James Risner]

johnnythexxxiv wrote:

I mean, masterwork transformation is a thing so you can always take the mug and make it masterwork and then enchant it normally.

Which is fine, but it's no longer an improvised weapon.

[Imbicatus]

Actually, read masterwork transformation...
Target: one weapon, suit of armor, shield, tool, or skill kit touched

A mug is not any of those things.

[CBDunkerson]

Imbicatus wrote:

Actually, read masterwork transformation...

Target: one weapon, suit of armor, shield, tool, or skill kit touched

A mug is not any of those things.

Tool = A device or implement, especially one held in the hand, used to carry out a particular function.

Mug = Tool for drinking

[James Risner]

Kinda getting off topic when debating whether or not a mug is a tool.

The path to enchanting an item involves make improvised weapons into masterwork weapons then enchanting the weapon.

[Baval]

If a transforming weapon can have Vorpal stay on it (nonfunctioning) even as a hammer, then a mug or a shield or even a suit of armor could have weapon enchants that they never use (until a certain person makes a certain build and uses them of course)

The magic doesnt know "heeeeey this is a mug not a sword, im not going in there!".

So i see no reason why not.

[James Risner]

For the mug to have the enhancement @Baval, it needs to be a weapon.
That means someone paid 300 go for masterwork weapon and you can't use improvised weapon rules since it's no longer improvised.

[Baval]

James Risner wrote:

For the mug to have the enhancement @Baval, it needs to be a weapon.

That means someone paid 300 go for masterwork weapon and you can't use improvised weapon rules since it's no longer improvised.

why?

It needs to be masterwork sure, but theres no logical reason why I couldnt put magic into anything I wanted so long as it was high enough quality to actually hold the magic. It might not work correctly since it only activates under the right circumstance (see vorpal on a tranformative weapon turned into a bludgeoning weapon) but the magic could exist in it waiting to be utilized.

And why would it no longer be improvised? Its a high quality mug with some cool magic sure, but its still not designed for combat, its designed for drinking. Theres no formal "mug fighting style"

Thieves Tools can be masterwork and theyre not weapons. Anything can be masterwork. It just means it was made really well.

Craft Magic Arms and Armor says:
"The weapon, armor, or shield to be enhanced must be a masterwork item that you provide. Its cost is not included in the above cost."

[James Risner]

Because the rules describe improvised weapons as non weapons. When it becomes a weapon it isn't a non weapon.

[Baval]

James Risner wrote:

Because the rules describe improvised weapons as non weapons. When it becomes a weapon it isn't a non weapon.

Thats a very interesting description of the rules considering it has the word "weapon" right in it, but even given that it doesnt matter since theres no reason i cant put my magic into any item i choose, and thats supported by the fact that Bludgeoning Weapons can have the Vorpal ability, it just doesnt work.

However, we cant grant that because what the rules actually say is:

"Sometimes objects not crafted to be weapons nonetheless see use in combat. Because such objects are not designed for this use,"

and the rest is rules on using them. It says objects not crafted to be weapons, not that they cant be weapons, because obviously they can be: improvised weapons.

[The Raven Black]

CBDunkerson wrote:

Imbicatus wrote:

Actually, read masterwork transformation...

Target: one weapon, suit of armor, shield, tool, or skill kit touched

A mug is not any of those things.

Tool = A device or implement, especially one held in the hand, used to carry out a particular function.

Mug = Tool for drinking

As a masterwork tool, you get +2 to which skill ?

[Chess Pwn]

A vorpal weapon must be a slashing melee weapon. If you roll this special ability randomly for an inappropriate weapon, reroll.

You can't put vorpal on a bludgeoning weapon.

[Baval]

The Raven Black wrote:

CBDunkerson wrote:

Imbicatus wrote:

Actually, read masterwork transformation...

Target: one weapon, suit of armor, shield, tool, or skill kit touched

A mug is not any of those things.

Tool = A device or implement, especially one held in the hand, used to carry out a particular function.

Mug = Tool for drinking

As a masterwork tool, you get +2 to which skill ?

Profession: Drinking

Profession: Speed Drinking

Perform: Drinking (for a particularly fancy mug for some strange performance drinking ritual from your culture)

as just two examples. Just because a character typically wouldnt take a skill doesnt mean a particularly fancy tool wouldnt be helpful in doing it.

[James Risner]

Baval wrote:

Sometimes objects not crafted to be weapons nonetheless see use in combat.

Which says non weapons used in combat as a weapon.

If you enhanced the non weapon as a +1 weapon it's now crafted as a weapon and no longer improvised.

[Baval]

Chess Pwn wrote:

A vorpal weapon must be a slashing melee weapon. If you roll this special ability randomly for an inappropriate weapon, reroll.

You can't put vorpal on a bludgeoning weapon.

But you can, IF the weapon is a transformative weapon, or is given that quality by an Artisan. Those rules are for randomly generating a weapon and as a general guide for new players who would want to do it but it would have no benefit, but theres no logical reason why you couldnt (it would just be dumb) and we know the magic can exist in such a weapon (it doesnt just flee the weapon if its not the right type)

If your DM is being this stingy about what should be a simple rule, just seek out an Artisan who can use transformative to treat any weapon he holds as if it had the transformative property, turn your mug into a longsword, enchant it, and give it back to you as a mug.

[Baval]

James Risner wrote:

Baval wrote:

Sometimes objects not crafted to be weapons nonetheless see use in combat.

Which says non weapons used in combat as a weapon.

If you enhanced the non weapon as a +1 weapon it's now crafted as a weapon and no longer improvised.

Why? Its still a mug. I didnt add a handle and a blade to it or something. No ones teaching "+1 mug style" classes in any fighter school. Its still a mug, its just a magic fancy mug. It still wasnt crafted to be a weapon, it was enchanted to be a weapon.

[Imbicatus]

Chess Pwn wrote:

A vorpal weapon must be a slashing melee weapon. If you roll this special ability randomly for an inappropriate weapon, reroll.

You can't put vorpal on a bludgeoning weapon.

You can put vorpal on an amulet of mighty fists though. It will work on a bite or claw, but not on a slam or hoof. It won't work on an unarmed strike, but it might if you were using boar or tiger style.

[Chess Pwn]

Baval wrote:

Chess Pwn wrote:

A vorpal weapon must be a slashing melee weapon. If you roll this special ability randomly for an inappropriate weapon, reroll.

You can't put vorpal on a bludgeoning weapon.

But you can, IF the weapon is a transformative weapon, or is given that quality by an Artisan. Those rules are for randomly generating a weapon and as a general guide for new players who would want to do it but it would have no benefit, but theres no logical reason why you couldnt (it would just be dumb) and we know the magic can exist in such a weapon (it doesnt just flee the weapon if its not the right type)

If your DM is being this stingy about what should be a simple rule, just seek out an Artisan who can use transformative to treat any weapon he holds as if it had the transformative property, turn your mug into a longsword, enchant it, and give it back to you as a mug.

You cannot put vorpal on a bludgeon weapon. Using your transformative weapon is the only way to get vorpal ON a "bludgeoning weapon" but it has to be a slashing weapon to have put vorpal on.

[Baval]

Imbicatus wrote:

Chess Pwn wrote:

A vorpal weapon must be a slashing melee weapon. If you roll this special ability randomly for an inappropriate weapon, reroll.

You can't put vorpal on a bludgeoning weapon.

You can put vorpal on an amulet of mighty fists though. It will work on a bite or claw, but not on a slam or hoof. It won't work on an unarmed strike, but it might if you were using boar or tiger style.

And here youre placing a weapon enchant on an amulet, which in turn has magic to spread that enchant to your natural attacks, but is not itself a weapon.

Chess Pwn wrote:

You cannot put vorpal on a bludgeon weapon. Using your transformative weapon is the only way to get vorpal ON a "bludgeoning weapon" but it has to be a slashing weapon to have put vorpal on.

See above.

[Chess Pwn]

Imbicatus wrote:

Chess Pwn wrote:

A vorpal weapon must be a slashing melee weapon. If you roll this special ability randomly for an inappropriate weapon, reroll.

You can't put vorpal on a bludgeoning weapon.

You can put vorpal on an amulet of mighty fists though. It will work on a bite or claw, but not on a slam or hoof. It won't work on an unarmed strike, but it might if you were using boar or tiger style.

Vorpal cannot be applied to unarmed attacks so I would say you can't put vorpal on an AoMF.

[Imbicatus]

Baval wrote:

No ones teaching "+1 mug style" classes in any fighter school. Its still a mug, its just a magic fancy mug. It still wasnt crafted to be a weapon, it was enchanted to be a weapon.

They do in Caydenite ones. The Divine Fighting Technique Blade and Tankard is designed specifically around this.

[Baval]

Chess Pwn wrote:

Imbicatus wrote:

Chess Pwn wrote:

A vorpal weapon must be a slashing melee weapon. If you roll this special ability randomly for an inappropriate weapon, reroll.

You can't put vorpal on a bludgeoning weapon.

You can put vorpal on an amulet of mighty fists though. It will work on a bite or claw, but not on a slam or hoof. It won't work on an unarmed strike, but it might if you were using boar or tiger style.

Vorpal cannot be applied to unarmed attacks so I would say you can't put vorpal on an AoMF.

Why not? You can use vorpal with any slashing weapon, and some natural attacks are slashing.

[Imbicatus]

Chess Pwn wrote:

Imbicatus wrote:

Chess Pwn wrote:

A vorpal weapon must be a slashing melee weapon. If you roll this special ability randomly for an inappropriate weapon, reroll.

You can't put vorpal on a bludgeoning weapon.

You can put vorpal on an amulet of mighty fists though. It will work on a bite or claw, but not on a slam or hoof. It won't work on an unarmed strike, but it might if you were using boar or tiger style.

Vorpal cannot be applied to unarmed attacks so I would say you can't put vorpal on an AoMF.

But Unarmed attacks aren't the purpose of an AoMF, enhancing natural weapons are. That's why Magic Fang is the prerequisite. Natural weapons do slashing damage.

[Baval]

Imbicatus wrote:

Baval wrote:

No ones teaching "+1 mug style" classes in any fighter school. Its still a mug, its just a magic fancy mug. It still wasnt crafted to be a weapon, it was enchanted to be a weapon.

They do in Caydenite ones. The Divine Fighting Technique Blade and Tankard is designed specifically around this.

True of course, but thats a Feat, which means its non standard. The fact that Improvised Weapon Mastery exists doesnt make every object that could conceivably used as a weapon not an improvised weapon automatically. Some people train to use improvised weapons, but its not a general fighting style that would be regarded as a standard "weapon" and its still not an object designed to be used as such.

[Chess Pwn]

Baval wrote:

Imbicatus wrote:

Chess Pwn wrote:

A vorpal weapon must be a slashing melee weapon. If you roll this special ability randomly for an inappropriate weapon, reroll.

You can't put vorpal on a bludgeoning weapon.

You can put vorpal on an amulet of mighty fists though. It will work on a bite or claw, but not on a slam or hoof. It won't work on an unarmed strike, but it might if you were using boar or tiger style.

And here youre placing a weapon enchant on an amulet, which in turn has magic to spread that enchant to your natural attacks, but is not itself a weapon.

Note, that's not me placing it on an amulet. BUT if it was allowed it's because the AoMF is giving an specific ability that allows it to have weapon enhancements that it gives to your attacks.

You're basically arguing this.

General rule: You need two legs to walk.
Specific ability X: You may use hands to walk instead of feat.
Specific item Y: You may walk with only one leg.

You: Nobody needs two legs to walk, X and Y prove that there is no general rule, they just give it as a nice suggestion.