Casting Sleep against Mind-Controlled creatures. Are they "mindless"? Whose Will save am I trying to beat?


Rules Questions


The way I understand it (and the way my DM runs our game), is that mindless creatures are immune to Sleep. I have a hypothetical that I was hoping to get some clarification about. If I were to go up against something that is being mind controlled:

1) Are they considered mindless? (immune to sleep). I could understand if this because in a way they have temporarily lost control of their own mind.

If not,

2) Whose Will save am I trying to beat? The one being mind controlled or the one DOING the mind controlling? Some combination of both?

Thanks for any clarification.

Silver Crusade Contributor

1) No. There's still a mind, it's just being mismanaged.

2) The creature still uses its own Will save. The exception is possession effects - in these cases, the possessor uses its own Will save.

Hope that helps. ^_^


That does help! Thank you! Just to clarify, even if they are possessed, they aren't considered "mindless", right? But in this case I will be going up against the possessor's own Will save?

Furthermore, and this one is probably obvious, can mindless creatures (such as mindless undead) BE possessed?

For reference I'm trying to imagine how useful Sleep could be against, say, zombies possessed by a "zombie overlord" or something of that nature.

Thanks again.


Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber
Jareth_Stormcrow wrote:

That does help! Thank you! Just to clarify, even if they are possessed, they aren't considered "mindless", right? But in this case I will be going up against the possessor's own Will save?

Furthermore, and this one is probably obvious, can mindless creatures (such as mindless undead) BE possessed?

For reference I'm trying to imagine how useful Sleep could be against, say, zombies possessed by a "zombie overlord" or something of that nature.

Thanks again.

It depends on the spell or effect used. Mindless undead are immune to mind-affecting effects. That means that you can't dominate (per dominate monster) or Charm (charm monster) a Zombie. You can't use sleep against a Zombie b/c Sleep require a target of "living creatures." I would say sleep works on vermin (mindless) even though they are immune to mind-affecting effects.

Possession (and Greater Possession) is NOT a mind-affecting effect therefore it does work on a Zombie.

Sleep would work against a possessed Zombie b/c it is mind-affecting and you are still you. It is affecting your mind not the body's.


Jareth_Stormcrow wrote:

The way I understand it (and the way my DM runs our game), is that mindless creatures are immune to Sleep. I have a hypothetical that I was hoping to get some clarification about. If I were to go up against something that is being mind controlled:

1) Are they considered mindless? (immune to sleep). I could understand if this because in a way they have temporarily lost control of their own mind.

If not,

2) Whose Will save am I trying to beat? The one being mind controlled or the one DOING the mind controlling? Some combination of both?

Thanks for any clarification.

As a side note, while mindless creatures ARE immune to sleep, so are all undead of any kind, mindless or otherwise.

It is not the mindless condition that makes the undead immune it is their undead condition. You will never be able to sleep them or use standard spells that affect the mind on them.

Undead Subtype wrote:

Immunity to all mind-affecting effects (charms, compulsions, morale effects, patterns, and phantasms).

Immunity to bleed, disease, death effects, necromancy effects, paralysis, poison, sleep effects, and stunning.


Thank you to all three of you. I have a much better understanding of the spell and mind-affecting spells in general.

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