Is Giving Fast Healing to PCs Overpowered?


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Shadow Lodge

Many people balk at giving the PCs fast healing or regenerations of any type, and I'm interested in hearing thoughts on both sides.

Here are my own. Fast healing is useful in three situations: in combat healing, out of combat healing, and edge cases.

In Combat Healing: The average combat, anywhere from level 1 to level 20, lasts about 4 rounds. If a character with fast healing 1 is damaged before his first turn of combat, then he heals four hit points. At level 4, those 4 extra hit points are equivalent to the Toughness feat, but as the character gains levels fast healing 1 lags behind. In terms of in combat hit points, a character needs to gain fast healing 1 for every 4 levels he has. Of course, however, fast healing has other uses which far outshine it’s meager in combat healing abilities.

Out of Combat Healing: By 3rd or 4th level, all parties have an easy way to heal out of combat: a wand of cure light wounds. These cheap (750gp) items mean that a party of any reasonable level need not worry about out of combat healing. After each encounter, it is simple to heal up to full hit points. While fast healing does save a few gold pieces (each hp healed by the wand costs about 3gp), it’s not a valuable part of the equation. Instead, it's simple, ease of use time saver.

Edge Cases: Here is where fast healing really shows its worth. Fast healing essentially provides immunity to bleed damage, and has the capability to bring creatures below 0hp back to fighting status without outside help. Given that low fast healing is weaker than the Toughness feat during combat, and unnecessary outside of combat due to healing items, these edge cases represent fast healing’s true worth – a valuable, but not overpowered, investment for some characters.

As a frame of reference, eidolons can gain fast healing 1 with a 4 evolution point investment, barbarians can gain fast healing 1 per six levels while raging with a rage power, an inquisitor can use his judgement to gain fast healing 1 per three levels, and a spell eater gains fast healing 1 per three levels while bloodraging,

I think that fast healing 1 is about feat power at about character level 8 or so (when a fighter would have around 65 hp). What are your thoughts? Would the following feat be too powerful? Too weak?

Fast Healing
Prerequisites: Character level 8
You gain fast healing 1. At 16 Hit Die, and every eight Hit Die thereafter, your fast healing increases by 1.


My GM likes high power games and as such I have a sorcerer in one of her games that has fast healing 1. In combat it has saved me once or twice by stopping my bleed outs when I was sent under 0.

The real advantage so far has been the savings on out of combat healing. Just a few minutes and my character is always back at full hits. Saves the expense of wands and saves the healer types from needing to use too many channels and cure's.

Most of the healer types in our game love this. One does not because all she LIKES to do is heal and if she is not able to she feels unused.

While it was definitely a life saver at lower levels, it is less of an impact at level 8 (where we are now) where it's main benefit has been post combat healing.


Only magical healing stops bleed. Fast healing is extraordinary (as are feats).


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All healing stops bleed effects. Otherwise most animals would bleed forever and ever.

James Jacobs wrote:


Anything that heals hit point damage stops bleed damage.
Not only does that match the rules as intended, it's simple to remember. And there's NO GOOD REASON why cure light wounds should be able to stop bleed damage when a potion of cure light wounds (also not a spell) won't do the same thing. Or fast healing or channel energy or anything else.
If it heals hp damage, it stops all bleed effects.

To the OP: Depending on Power Level. I don't mind. Also Boots of the Earth are cheap and an Eidolon can share its Fast Healing Healing for a few more Evolution Points, giving everyone fast healing effectively.


JJ doesn't have the authority to make rulings. His posts are how he thinks things should work and how they work in the home games he runs.


The OP wrote:
Is Giving Fast Healing to PCs Overpowered?

If it's OP for your play style, it's OP; if it's not, it's not.

While that seems tautological, it really does boil down to that.

In ours, it's not - not really. But for some groups it certainly would be. It entirely hinges on what your group looks at as "fun" - that said, in the RAW there are several methods that supply similar effects either temporarily (via spells) or at the cost of a magic item slot, so it's presumed by the Designers to function within at least a certain paradigm of the game (though you'll have to gauge whether or not you agree with their design decisions yourself).

Also, the higher your level, the more it becomes a "time saver" than a "life saver" (unless your group diverges strongly from most gaming groups that report on the forums that I've seen), as at that level, healing is relatively plentiful and in higher values than most fast healing or regeneration options available.

That said, regeneration would be the one most that have problems are likely have the most problems with, as most forms of bypassing regeneration are at least able to be mitigated in some respect; and without regeneration being shut down, it's questionable (depending on GM interpretation) whether or not the creature can die at all.


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Hubaris wrote:

All healing stops bleed effects. Otherwise most animals would bleed forever and ever.

James Jacobs wrote:


Anything that heals hit point damage stops bleed damage.
Not only does that match the rules as intended, it's simple to remember. And there's NO GOOD REASON why cure light wounds should be able to stop bleed damage when a potion of cure light wounds (also not a spell) won't do the same thing. Or fast healing or channel energy or anything else.
If it heals hp damage, it stops all bleed effects.
To the OP: Depending on Power Level. I don't mind. Also Boots of the Earth are cheap and an Eidolon can share its Fast Healing Healing for a few more Evolution Points, giving everyone fast healing effectively.

Well, here's a case where James Jacobs is wrong on the rules. The rules are very clear:

Bleed wrote:
Bleeding can be stopped by a DC 15 Heal check or through the application of any spell that cures hit point damage (even if the bleed is ability damage).


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Fuzzy-Wuzzy wrote:
Only magical healing stops bleed. Fast healing is extraordinary (as are feats).

Not magical healing, spells. SU or SLA healing doesn't stop bleeding.


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What it'll change is that the PCs will be at full health in every combat... During combat itself, FH will barely make any difference... Except for the fact that PCs under 0 hp can return to action.


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Thankfully this isn't the Rules Forum so I don't need to get my quote-fu on.

Spoiler:

Not going to get too much into it but do you allow Channel Energy to stop bleeding? If so you've been wrong the whole time as it is not a Spell.
I find it hard to believe that Regeneration can repair a lost limb but not stop a cut from bleeding you out.

Honestly back to the topic, I don't think Fast Healing is that bad. Consider the Verminous Hunter can gain Fast Healing 1, any Orc or Half-Orc who Worships the Fire God can torch dying (but not dead) enemies for hit points... all at 1st level.

Once you get Wands of Cure Light Wounds it becomes trivial and I've even started handwaving the Cure Rolls, letting them take 4.5+1 hit points per charge (assuming CL1) because I don't want to sit there and micromanage wand charges and hit points when there is this whole world to explore.

Then again you have to ask yourself, whats the context of the game?
Is it a survival campaign in the wilderness? Is it high fantasy? These things change the balance of Fast Healing. Heck, do your Adventuring Days contain 3 to 4 really meaningful encounters that assume you're at full health (but not full resources)? Are they smaller encounters spread here and there? Are there assassins attack you when you camp and heal for a few minutes?

Other than stabilizing and ruining the balance of some corner cases like Diehard ; its not that bad. I would say that if you ran with a global Fast Heal rule that you need to be outside of strenuous activity for more than a minute for it to trigger (allowing Bleed monsters to still work, hazards, etc).

I think its a little open ended, and I would stand on the fence and say "It depends".


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I think y'all are missing with Gilfalas was saying. He was talking about being below zero and "bleeding out." This isn't a Bleed effect, or even a game term.

"Dying (Negative Hit Points)

If your hit point total is negative, but not equal to or greater than your Constitution score, you're dying.

A dying character immediately falls unconscious and can take no actions.

A dying character loses 1 hit point every round. This continues until the character dies or becomes stable."

As opposed to:

"Bleed: A creature that is taking bleed damage takes the listed amount of damage at the beginning of its turn. Bleeding can be stopped by a DC 15 Heal check or through the application of any spell that cures hit point damage (even if the bleed is ability damage). Some bleed effects cause ability damage or even ability drain. Bleed effects do not stack with each other unless they deal different kinds of damage. When two or more bleed effects deal the same kind of damage, take the worse effect. In this case, ability drain is worse than ability damage."

Notice that the state of "Dying (Negative Hit Points)" at no point references the condition of Bleed. In fact, it doesn't even state that the creature is "bleeding" at all.

Also, the section on hit points goes on to say:

"If any sort of healing cures the dying character of even 1 point of damage, he becomes stable and stops losing hit points."

So, Fast Healing absolutely does prevent someone from "bleeding out" in the parlance, regardless of whether or not it can effect the Bleed condition. Bleed and Dying are different things.

Edit:

Nevermind. I read more closely, and the discussion is about something I missed in the OP :P


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swoosh wrote:
Fuzzy-Wuzzy wrote:
Only magical healing stops bleed. Fast healing is extraordinary (as are feats).
Not magical healing, spells. SU or SLA healing doesn't stop bleeding.

Yep, a cure light spell works but a cure light SLA or SU power doesn't...

Which is why I see most people going with a James Jacobs type ruling. As written, it makes little sense. A SLA heal or regenerate doesn't stop bleed but a cure light spell does...


The trouble with fast healing is that you have to track time between encounters until healed.


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There is also the occasional off-use of the word "spell". Sometimes "spell" just means magic of any kind. You see this kind of thing a lot more in the earlier books, before the terminology was so codified.


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Fuzzy-Wuzzy wrote:
Only magical healing stops bleed. Fast healing is extraordinary (as are feats).

A DC 15 heal check also stops bleed and that's non magical.


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Lemmy wrote:
What it'll change is that the PCs will be at full health in every combat... During combat itself, FH will barely make any difference... Except for the fact that PCs under 0 hp can return to action.

I think most people assume that PCs will be at full health in every combat with or without fast healing, due to wands of CLW.

Usually only time that isn't true is when the PCs are in a time crunch, in which case if they are relying on fast healing instead of wands for their out-of-combat healing, they are actually at a disadvantage, since the wands heal faster, especially if you have multiple wands and PCs who can use them, which is fairly common. Even 1 wand though has a slight edge in speed against fast healing for a party of 4, and even more when you consider that not all PCs will take the same amount of damage each encounter.

The biggest difference in practical terms is probably money saving and no one needing to sacrifice an action to stabilize dying PCs. The money ends up being pretty trivial usually, but the 5000 gp for Boots of the Earth seems pretty reasonable. That item also takes care of the second concern, in that you have to actively be using them, so if you go down, someone still needs to spend that precious action to keep you from dying.

Shadow Lodge

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As an FYI, each hit point cured from a wand of cure light wounds costs a little less than 3gp (on average). And each wand is good for around 275hp.


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I have no problem with it especially if it fits the race or class in question.

Good examples would be dhampir, wyrwood, ghorans, and any race or class that is focused on positive energy.


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Hubaris wrote:
Consider the Verminous Hunter can gain Fast Healing 1

Sadly this is no longer the case. Paizo killed that part like a Hunter's Companion.


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Azten wrote:
Hubaris wrote:
Consider the Verminous Hunter can gain Fast Healing 1
Sadly this is no longer the case. Paizo killed that part like a Hunter's Companion.

Serves me right for using my ACG.

Grand Lodge

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Skald's can get and give Fast Healing. It's only while they're raging, but it's potentially enough to heal up the whole party out of combat every fight with a third level spell (Exquisite Accompaniment.)

There are also pretty straightforward ways to use Life Link to heal everyone to full out of combat without using any limited resources. Although Life Link plus your feat basically lets your feat Fast Heal everyone.

So it's in the vicinity of reasonable. I don't think I'd create it without some cool justification, it feels more like a Rage Power or Revelation than just a feat for anyone.

Grand Lodge

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graystone wrote:
swoosh wrote:
Fuzzy-Wuzzy wrote:
Only magical healing stops bleed. Fast healing is extraordinary (as are feats).
Not magical healing, spells. SU or SLA healing doesn't stop bleeding.

Yep, a cure light spell works but a cure light SLA or SU power doesn't...

Which is why I see most people going with a James Jacobs type ruling. As written, it makes little sense. A SLA heal or regenerate doesn't stop bleed but a cure light spell does...

Typically Fast Healing is Ex. There are a Few Cases that is comes from a magical sources and Super natural sources. You defiantly have to check the source of the fast healing to make sure it isn't the result of a spell or magical source. In the case of the feat presented it would be a Ex ability because as you stated it is gained through a Feat.

Spell Like Abilities (Sp) wrote:

Usually, a spell-like ability works just like the spell of that name. A spell-like ability has no verbal, somatic, or material component, nor does it require a focus. The user activates it mentally. Armor never affects a spell-like ability's use, even if the ability resembles an arcane spell with a somatic component.

A spell-like ability has a casting time of 1 standard action unless noted otherwise in the ability or spell description. In all other ways, a spell-like ability functions just like a spell.

Spell-like abilities are subject to spell resistance and dispel magic. They do not function in areas where magic is suppressed or negated. Spell-like abilities cannot be used to counterspell, nor can they be counterspelled.

If a character class grants a spell-like ability that is not based on an actual spell, the ability's effective spell level is equal to the highest-level class spell the character can cast, and is cast at the class level the ability is gained.

How would a SLA Cure Light Wounds (or Cure X) not be magical?

Same for say Channel Energy (Su)? Does channel not stop bleeding and heal damage? Is it not considered healing?


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Hubaris wrote:
Azten wrote:
Hubaris wrote:
Consider the Verminous Hunter can gain Fast Healing 1
Sadly this is no longer the case. Paizo killed that part like a Hunter's Companion.
Serves me right for using my ACG.

LOL You have a first print too? That things only good for kindling, weighing down papers and holding up uneven tables... I think more rules changed in it than stayed the same... :P

Fruian Thistlefoot wrote:

How would a SLA Cure Light Wounds (or Cure X) not be magical?

Same for say Channel Energy (Su)? Does channel not stop bleeding and heal...

Read bleed once. Bleed doesn't care if the healing is magical. As written, it only cares that it's a spell. SLA and SU aren't spells. As that makes little sense, I don't think I've ever seen it played that way but that's what is says. A SLA of regenerate can reattach a lost limb and regrow organs but somehow doesn't stop bleeding...

Grand Lodge

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graystone wrote:
Serves me right for using my ACG.
LOL You have a first print too? That things only good for kindling, weighing down papers and holding up uneven tables... I think more rules changed in it than stayed the same... :P

Doesn't everyone? I didn't think they'd actually printed any second editions yet..

Grand Lodge

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graystone wrote:
Hubaris wrote:
Azten wrote:
Hubaris wrote:
Consider the Verminous Hunter can gain Fast Healing 1
Sadly this is no longer the case. Paizo killed that part like a Hunter's Companion.
Serves me right for using my ACG.

LOL You have a first print too? That things only good for kindling, weighing down papers and holding up uneven tables... I think more rules changed in it than stayed the same... :P

Fruian Thistlefoot wrote:

How would a SLA Cure Light Wounds (or Cure X) not be magical?

Same for say Channel Energy (Su)? Does channel not stop bleeding and heal...

Read bleed once. Bleed doesn't care if the healing is magical. As written, it only cares that it's a spell. SLA and SU aren't spells. As that makes little sense, I don't think I've ever seen it played that way but that's what is says. A SLA of regenerate can reattach a lost limb and regrow organs but somehow doesn't stop bleeding...
Bleed wrote:
A creature that is taking bleed damage takes the listed amount of damage at the beginning of its turn. Bleeding can be stopped by a DC 15 Heal check or through the application of any spell that cures hit point damage (even if the bleed is ability damage). Some bleed effects cause ability damage or even ability drain. Bleed effects do not stack with each other unless they deal different kinds of damage. When two or more bleed effects deal the same kind of damage, take the worse effect. In this case, ability drain is worse than ability damage.

SO works just like the spell of that name and a spell-like ability functions just like a spell Are still not enough to count as a spell?

Yes this is very confusing indeed.


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graystone wrote:
SLA and SU aren't spells.

SLA are spells.

CRB p 221 wrote:
Usually, a spell-like ability works just like the spell of that name.

It goes on to list some ways in which SLAs don't behave exactly like spells, but not counting as a spell for the purpose of miscellaneous rules that refer to spells is not one of them.


claudekennilol wrote:
graystone wrote:
Serves me right for using my ACG.
LOL You have a first print too? That things only good for kindling, weighing down papers and holding up uneven tables... I think more rules changed in it than stayed the same... :P
Doesn't everyone? I didn't think they'd actually printed any second editions yet..

*shrug* Don't have a clue. After ACG I swore to NEVER buy a Paizo hardcover again. I really enjoy having physical books to read, and would prefer to have one, but it's all PDF's for me now.

Fruian Thistlefoot wrote:

SO works just like the spell of that name and a spell-like ability functions just like a spell Are still not enough to count as a spell?

Yes this is very confusing indeed.

Well, it doesn't work JUST like the spell or it wouldn't be a spell like ability. The fact that they split abilities into spell, spell-like and supernatural means they are in fact different types of abilities.

"Spell-like abilities, as the name implies, are magical abilities that are very much like spells": Not the same as.

"Supernatural abilities are magical but not spell-like": Not spell-like but you thought Channel Energy (Su) should work...

Also note there are feats like Empowered and Quickened Spell-Like Abilities. If spells = SLA then they could use Metamagic feats...

Atarlost: If spells where SLA, they wouldn't be different categories. Are SU powers spells too? The ability doesn't say magic abilities [spells, SLA and SU] stop bleeding, it says spells and in the game that's something different.

I agree that any healing ability should work but I accept that's not how it's written.

The Exchange

I'd not want to give PCs blanket Fast Healing, as it diminishes the utility of other in-combat healing abilities without compensation (game balance-wise) and will likely tend to prolong battles (which can already take too long in some cases) and shift tactics to in-combat tag-team fighting ('you fight him for a few rounds while I stand behind this pillar and take a breather...') which inherently gives even more advantage to groups of PCs with more members, even if the bad guys get the same free Fast Healing (after all, 4 PCs with Fast Healing 1 are potentially healing 4x faster than one big bad with the same if you count total hp). It'll also end up forcing characters to waste time with coup-de-graces (to ensure their enemies don't just keep getting up...).

On the other hand, banning Wands of Cure Light Wounds and just hand-waving that everyone is healed after an encounter is over (and not just delayed by running round the corner for a couple of minutes) after an arbitrary story-relevant amount of time would be fine. You could even subtract the costs of Wands of Cure Light Wounds from the value of the party's treasure if one was to worry about WBL imbalances (although it honestly isn't likely to make much difference after level 1, assuming the party co-operate with each other in any way, shape or form).

Shadow Lodge

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To hone things down here, we are thinking about if this feat would be unbalanced:

Fast Healing
Prerequisites: Character level 8
You gain fast healing 1. At 16 Hit Die, and every eight Hit Die thereafter, your fast healing increases by 1.


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Broken Zenith wrote:

To hone things down here, we are thinking about if this feat would be unbalanced:

Fast Healing
Prerequisites: Character level 8
You gain fast healing 1. At 16 Hit Die, and every eight Hit Die thereafter, your fast healing increases by 1.

At that level? Definitely not.

Heck, I would even drop it down to Character level 6 and do increases at 6, 12, 18, 24 etc.

Feats are far more valuable than the minor costs in CLW Wands that you would save in the end.


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Yeah, what Hubaris said.
(I'd do it even faster - maybe 4/8/12/16/20 - but not much faster than that.)


Broken Zenith wrote:

To hone things down here, we are thinking about if this feat would be unbalanced:

Fast Healing
Prerequisites: Character level 8
You gain fast healing 1. At 16 Hit Die, and every eight Hit Die thereafter, your fast healing increases by 1.

Assuming that fast healing doesn't stop actual bleed effects (not mere dying), this is fine thing to get for a feat. If in your campaign fast healing does stop actual bleed effects, this is OP---bleed is supposed to be a big deal, especially ability bleed, and this just makes it go away completely.

The Exchange

Of course if you're not worried about infinite healing you could just switch the Virtue orison back to healing 1 hit point (instead of granting 1 temporary hit point). It'd be simple to work out how much time it took for the party Cleric to heal everyone up (total party hit points lost divided by ten in minutes) and would avoid any unforeseen complications from unlimited Fast Healing.

On the other hand, I'm really playing devil's advocate a bit here. In honest answer to the original question: no, I doubt it'd be too powerful.


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graystone wrote:
Atarlost: If spells where SLA, they wouldn't be different categories. Are SU powers spells too? The ability doesn't say magic abilities [spells, SLA and SU] stop bleeding, it says spells and in the game that's something different.

SLAs originated as a hack so spell casting monsters could be simpler. They're meant to act as spells in all ways not given as specific exceptions. That's the basis on which Paizo had SLAs count for prestige class prerequisites until they decided they hate multiclassing more than they like rules consistency.


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Fuzzy-Wuzzy wrote:
Broken Zenith wrote:

To hone things down here, we are thinking about if this feat would be unbalanced:

Fast Healing
Prerequisites: Character level 8
You gain fast healing 1. At 16 Hit Die, and every eight Hit Die thereafter, your fast healing increases by 1.

If in your campaign fast healing does stop actual bleed effects, this is OP

How big a deal it is would depend on how common bleed affects are. I've gone through 20 levels of play and not seen a single bleed affect before so in that game it wouldn't have altered the strength of the feat in the least.

Atarlost wrote:
graystone wrote:
Atarlost: If spells where SLA, they wouldn't be different categories. Are SU powers spells too? The ability doesn't say magic abilities [spells, SLA and SU] stop bleeding, it says spells and in the game that's something different.
SLAs originated as a hack so spell casting monsters could be simpler. They're meant to act as spells in all ways not given as specific exceptions. That's the basis on which Paizo had SLAs count for prestige class prerequisites until they decided they hate multiclassing more than they like rules consistency.

You made my point for me. The current FAQ says SLA DON'T count as spell casting for prerequisites... Seems like you proved SLA aren't identical to. Good job! ;)

Spell are not SLA. SLA aren't spells. Only one removes a bleed affect when used to heal...


ProfPotts wrote:
Of course if you're not worried about infinite healing you could just switch the Virtue orison back to healing 1 hit point (instead of granting 1 temporary hit point).

Technically, the Virtue orison always did that; you're thinking of the Cure Minor Wounds orison (which was replaced by the Stabilize orison in PF).

;)

((Otherwise, carry on!))

EDIT: Coding. Of course. DANGIT, dyslexia... ;p


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graystone wrote:
You made my point for me. The current FAQ says SLA DON'T count as spell casting for prerequisites.

Actually not quite true. Dimension Door SLA counts as having the Dimension Door Spell for prerequisites, it doesn't count as arcane casting or being able to cast a level 4 arcane spell for prerequisites however.

So far that purpose anyway, a SLA of a particular spell is actually identical to that particular spell.


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It's also specifically called out as such in the Feats and abilities that it works for, making it more-or-less unique. Otherwise, the only people who could use the Dimensional line would be casters.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

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It would render bleeding absolutely useless as a combat ability.
It would affect resource management. 275 HP can be gone through in ONE FIGHT without too much trouble. CLW's snapping like twigs.

You'd probably do it better if you were using the Health/Vitality argument, and let Vitality recharge fast, but left health alone. that would put a cap on how useful the ability is.

The ability to keep healing without expenditure of resources has always been a powerful ability. Useful in combat? Well, to the extent of stopping bleed. But as you noted, the out of combat uses are VERY good. You essentially create a bunch of tireless hackmonsters.

It's also an ability that is MUCh better for PC's then monsters, as in combat regen/fast heal has never affected combat much, except for inability to keep something dead and having to find a way to do so.

I dunno, it's your game, do what you like. But the implications on the broader game, I'd say no.

==Aelryinth


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Ignoring the edge cases (which are direct problems to game balance; few disagree there), we are left with in combat and out of combat. In combat is usually never enough to really matter so we can write that off. Out of combat is the thing worth discussing here.

In that case, I would have to ask about the nature of the fast healing. Boots of the earth, for example, only give fast healing 1, and only works when you stand compeltely still. And since this can technically cover the whole party, that means you only need one to act as a permanent replacement for all wands of healing... but that means you need to share.

With boots of healing, it is an interesting balance factor since you are directly trading time for nonconsumable healing. Time can be a major factor since there are tons of 10 min/level buffs that could get ruined because it takes the barbarian 10 min just to heal after one fight with the boots. In such a case, it would be balanced since there is a direct cost (wasting spells or limiting spell options). The party might actually grab wands of CLW just to speed things up when they have buffs running out.

Boots of the earth's need to stand still also plays into the idea that you won't use it much for combat, which helps solve the edge cases. It also means that unconscious creatures can't use them (which both prevents instant stand ups in a fight, and it means that they might need to case cure anyway since the character can't use the boots when knocked out).

Shadow Lodge

Again, to hone things down here, we are thinking about if this feat would be unbalanced:

Fast Healing
Prerequisites: Character level 8
You gain fast healing 1. At 16 Hit Die, and every eight Hit Die thereafter, your fast healing increases by 1.


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swoosh wrote:
Fuzzy-Wuzzy wrote:
Only magical healing stops bleed. Fast healing is extraordinary (as are feats).
Not magical healing, spells. SU or SLA healing doesn't stop bleeding.

They do if the bleeding was caused by any creature listed in the Besiary:

Universal Monster Rules wrote:
Bleed (Ex) A creature with this ability causes wounds that continue to bleed, inflicting additional damage each round at the start of the affected creature's turn. This bleeding can be stopped by a successful DC 15 Heal skill check or through the application of any magical healing. The amount of damage each round is determined in the creature's entry.

Also a NPC Rogue with Bleeding Attack:

PRD wrote:
Bleeding Attack* (Ex): A rogue with this ability can cause living opponents to bleed by hitting them with a sneak attack. This attack causes the target to take 1 additional point of damage each round for each die of the rogue's sneak attack (e.g., 4d6 equals 4 points of bleed). Bleeding creatures take that amount of damage every round at the start of each of their turns. The bleeding can be stopped by a DC 15 Heal check or the application of any effect that heals hit point damage. Bleeding damage from this ability does not stack with itself. Bleeding damage bypasses any damage reduction the creature might possess.

Ex Fast Healing will stop this Bleeding, too.


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Aelryinth wrote:
It would render bleeding absolutely useless as a combat ability.

Er, yeah, for someone with the fast healing ability.

My alchemist has poison immunity, it renders the poison combat ability completely useless as well.

Not every combat ability needs to be useful against every PC.

Now, that said, if every single PC, regardless of class, insists on taking the fast healing feat as soon as they are high enough level, chances are it's overpowered.


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Bleeding is rare and basically useless below low levels anyway.

And it isn't necessarily OP if everyone wants to take it, if it's removing a lot of tedious book keeping or remedying a system deficiency by taking it.

For example, if 5 ft. steps didn't exist, everyone would jump on a Feat that gave them. Doesn't mean it's OP, just filling a gap.

Shadow Lodge

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I have played a melee Inquisitor through 11 levels of PFS scenarios.
The Healing Judgement is one of my go-to options, as he takes a lot of punishment in combat.
I haven't found the Fast Healing effect to be terribly powerful; it really just reduces the need to break the flow of combat to heal in emergencies.

Even having Fast Healing 4 at 9th level isn't game-breaking.

The Healing Judgement goes up by +1 for every 3 levels you have in Inquisitor.

It's not constant-on, but IMO that's not a huge deal anyway. Getting healed out of combat is easy and cheap.

Scarab Sages

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graystone wrote:
Atarlost wrote:
graystone wrote:
Atarlost: If spells where SLA, they wouldn't be different categories. Are SU powers spells too? The ability doesn't say magic abilities [spells, SLA and SU] stop bleeding, it says spells and in the game that's something different.
SLAs originated as a hack so spell casting monsters could be simpler. They're meant to act as spells in all ways not given as specific exceptions. That's the basis on which Paizo had SLAs count for prestige class prerequisites until they decided they hate multiclassing more than they like rules consistency.

You made my point for me. The current FAQ says SLA DON'T count as spell casting for prerequisites... Seems like you proved SLA aren't identical to. Good job! ;)

Spell are not SLA. SLA aren't spells. Only one removes a bleed affect when used to heal...

Going to have to disagree with you here. For one, there is a FAQ saying that SLAs count as prereqs. They just don't count having a "1st level spell" as an SLA as "being able to cast 1st level spells".

Examples:

SLA FAQ : Spell-Like Abilities and Item Crafting: Can I use a spell-like ability for an item's spell requirement?:
"Yes.
Core Rulebook page 461, Requirements section, paragraph 2 says, "A spell prerequisite may be provided by a character who has prepared the spell (or who knows the spell, in the case of a sorcerer or bard), or through the use of a spell completion or spell trigger magic item or a spell-like ability that produces the desired spell effect."
For example, a demon with the Craft Magic Arms and Armor feat and who has fireball as a spell-like ability can craft a +1 flaming sword, which has fireball as a prerequisite."

SLA FAQ : Spell-Like Abilities as Spells: Does a creature with a spell-like ability count as having that spell on its spell list for the purpose of activating spell completion or spell trigger items?:
"No.
A spell-like ability is not a spell, having a spell-like ability is not part of a class's spell list, and therefore doesn't give the creature the ability to activate spell completion or spell trigger items."

SLA FAQ : Spell-Like Abilities, Casting, and Prerequisites: Does a creature with a spell-like ability count as being able to cast that spell for the purpose of prerequisites or requirements?:
"Only if the pre-requisite calls out the name of a spell explicitly. For instance, the Dimensional Agility feat (Ultimate Combat) has "ability to use the abundant step class feature or cast dimension door" as a prerequisite; a barghest has dimension door as a spell-like ability, so the barghest meets the "able to cast dimension door prerequisite for that feat. However, the barghest's dimension door would not meet requirements such as "Ability to cast 4th level spells" or "Ability to cast arcane spells"."

Spell-Like Abilities (Sp) wrote:

Usually, a spell-like ability works just like the spell of that name. A spell-like ability has no verbal, somatic, or material component, nor does it require a focus. The user activates it mentally. Armor never affects a spell-like ability's use, even if the ability resembles an arcane spell with a somatic component.

A spell-like ability has a casting time of 1 standard action unless noted otherwise in the ability or spell description. In all other ways, a spell-like ability functions just like a spell.

Spell-like abilities are subject to spell resistance and dispel magic. They do not function in areas where magic is suppressed or negated. Spell-like abilities cannot be used to counterspell, nor can they be counterspelled.

If a character class grants a spell-like ability that is not based on an actual spell, the ability's effective spell level is equal to the highest-level class spell the character can cast, and is cast at the class level the ability is gained."

So if you have an SLA of Cure Light Wounds, and Cure Light Wounds can stop bleeding... the SLA can as well. Since, except for the ways noted SLAs function just like the spell that is mentioned in its description. It is NOT a spell, so it does not count as having the spell on your list or things of that nature. But it functions as a spell. Which should be good enough for our needs here.


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Remember, that FAQ was reversed.

Scarab Sages

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Sundakan wrote:
Remember, that FAQ was reversed.

Which FAQ? Do you mean the one that allowed SLAs to count as the ability to cast 1st level spells if it was an SLA of a 1st level spell?

If so, that is the same one I quoted earlier that has since been changed, not reversed or deleted. I quoted the newest and current version of that FAQ. In which SLAs count as prereqs. But it does not count as "being able to cast spells of a certain level".

An SLA of mage hand still counts as being able to cast mage hand for prereqs. But it doesn't count as being able to cast arcane spells or being able to cast 0 level spells.


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Ah, I misunderstood what you said (SLAs = Spell equivalents for effect, not as spells for all purposes). That's what I get for skimming.


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Lorewalker:
1st SLA FAQ: Specific spells can count for specific requirements. That isn't the case for bleed. There isn't ONE specific spell that stops it, just healing spells. So I don't see this FAQ applicable.

2nd SLA FAQ: SLA don't count as spells for things that require spell use... Yep, sounds right.

3rd SLA FAQ: See 1st...

The rest boils down to SLA and spells being listed differently. Using a spell for range, effect ect doesn't make it a spell. In fact the part you quoted even points out that SLA don't have to be based on an actual spell. Something that calls out SLA, just affects SLA. Something that calls out SU abilities, just affects SU. One that calls out spells for some reason covers multiple categories? Doesn't sound right.

Now, if the general rule was done like Quantum Steve pointed out the bestiary words it, then any magical effect would work. Now if it was worded like rogue bleed, then (ex) abilities would work fine. However, the core ability only works with spells alone.

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