Bloodrager Dip: Id Rager with Dedication Emotional Focus


Advice

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Hello all,

Is it just me, or does the Dedication Emotional Focus for the Id Rager archetype seem quite powerful for a one-level dip? Another +2 to Will saves while raging, the Skill Focus bonus feat, and the impressive Dutiful Strike ability.

Additionally, might there be a way of exploiting the "deals damage against that target as if the phantom were one size category larger" aspect of the ability for a character NOT using natural attacks?

TL;DR: Out of all possibilities for a one-level Bloodrager dip, does the Id Rager archetype with Dedication Emotional Focus make the most sense for a TWF Warpriest?

Thank you, as always,
The Other

Silver Crusade

Nope, Id Rager is awesome :3

Just note that the Iron Will and Dutiful Strike will only be in effect while in Id Rage.

And unlike other abilities that modify a Phantom's attacks there's nothing stating that Dutiful Strike only works on natural attacks.


Hatred is a pretty good option too. As a move action you get a +2 attack and 1/2 your HIT DICE to damage, so it'll keep scaling as you level. Plus it offers skill focus perception.


Hey Chess,

Hatred is sick, problem is the move action for TWF.

The Other


So, for example, I could use a Large Orc Double Axe without penalty while raging under this archetype (if I attack the target of Dutiful Strike)? I suppose I wouldn't want to limit myself this way, though.


no, you use a normal double ax, but it does damage as if one size larger. Kinda like if you had impact or had cast lead blades


For real? That's sick.


So against target of Dutiful Strike at first level, while raging, I'm doing +6 to hit (with Masterwork Double Axe) on 2d6+6/2d6+4 on a full attack?


You'd be doing
STR+2(raging str)+2(dutiful strike)-2(twf)+1
so normal str bonus +3
So assuming str 16 base, yes +6 to hit.

damage 2d6+normal str bonus +2/half of the other.
So assuming str 16 base 2d6+5/2d6+2


Oh wow, so with 18 STR I'm at +7 to hit, 2d6+6/2d6+4. That's pretty awesome. This seems almost too good to be true.

Add in Finish the Fight trait and we're off to the races.


2d6+6/2d6+3
But yeah, that's right. Bloodrager and Warpriest are pretty awesome


That's just the Bloodrager. I'll add on another +1 to hit with Weapon Focus at Lvl 2 (Lv1 1 Warpriest). Fun.


and at lv3, assuming fate's favored trait, another +2 to attack and damage from swift-casting of divine favor. at lv5 you'll probably want to pick up Dual Enhancement


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Yup, I'm on it. Here's the build again:

Lvl 1 Bloodrager (Lvl 1): Two-Weapon Fighting (Half-Orc Favored Class Bonus: Bloodrage +1 Round)
Lvl 1 Warpriest (Lvl 2): Bonus: Weapon Focus (Orc Double Axe)
Lvl 2 Warpriest (Lvl 3): Extra Rage
Lvl 3 Warpriest (Lvl 4): Bonus: Mad Magic (+1 Dex)
Lvl 4 Warpriest (Lvl 5): Dual Enhancement
Lvl 5 Warpriest (Lvl 6): ---
Lvl 6 Warpriest (Lvl 7): Extra Rage/Eclipse Spell (Light), BONUS: Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, FCB: Lunge
Lvl 7 Warpriest (Lvl 8): Bonus: Quicken Blessing (+1 Con)
Lvl 8 Warpriest (Lvl 9): Extra Rage/Eclipse Spell (Light)
Lvl 9 Warpriest (Lvl10): Defensive Weapon Training BONUS: Improved Critical
Lvl10 Warpriest (Lvl11): Divine Interference

I'm taking Behind the Veil, so wanted to get Eclipse Spell (Light) earlier for 50% concealment, but I decided the Extra Rage was more important early on, as so many monsters have Darkvision. Will either take it at Lvl 7 or Lvl 9 depending.


Ah I see you're taking the chaplan archetype, I like it.

Which spells and how many are you planning on casting during combat?

Because to me, I see combat as this
R1 swift divine favor, rage
R2 Sacred weapon as a swift.
R3 we don't need any more buffs/spells

which to me seems to lower the value of Mad Magic a lot as you'll not be needing to use it much. But maybe you have a different plan than mine, so that's why I'm curious what it could be.

Grand Lodge

Why one level of FCB for Bloodrager when you could get 10 levels of FCB as a warpriest (so a bonus feat and 4 skill/hit points)?


It's a good point, to be sure Chess. I've debated. Cleromancy is pretty good with Fate's Favored, and some of the other defensive buffs are good too.

Of course, if I could take Extra Rage there, I would, but it needs to be a combat feat. I'm not sure if there's a better option.

I could go for the Endurance bonus feat and take Diehard, but then I'd lose out on Shadow Blend. I don't want initiative, because I want to be attacked first for Dutiful Strike. I could take Dodge, but I'm not sure.

Of course I'm open to suggestions.


Claude that was a question I had: can I only pick the one favored class at first level? I can't take a second favored class?

Also credit Claude for the above suggestions for spells.


Also would you gentlemen take Finish the Fight over Berserker of the Society? It seemed like the right move to me.


Ah, I see the rule about FCB now. Understood.

Liberty's Edge

Berserker of the society is a barbarian trait, so not usually available to bloodragers. And aside from that, finish the fight is a lot closer to a feat in power level, whereas berserker of the society is decidedly half a feat. Assuming you're highly likely to hit on your first attack (which you likely will be, especially with no power attack) it's basically like a free weapon focus.


Yeah, that's what I was thinking Deighton. Pretty legit for a TWF. I'm gonna roll with it.

Grand Lodge

The Other wrote:

Claude that was a question I had: can I only pick the one favored class at first level? I can't take a second favored class?

Also credit Claude for the above suggestions for spells.

Just in case it's still not clear after seeing the rule.. Technically you're right in that you pick your favored class at level 1, but it doesn't have to be your first class.

I have a Bloodrager 1 / Monk X in PFS and in my experience 12 rounds of rage has been enough for me (though I've only played him up to level 5 so I haven't had a chance to go through many long encounters). So if you're going to take Extra Rage, I wouldn't worry about taking Berserker of the Society.

As a raging warpriest (with fate's favored on top of that) you'll find that your plus to hit will often be high enough that you won't need to worry about a +1 from a trait. I'd take Tusked and gain a bite attack for if you find yourself without your axe. It'll be your only primary natural attack so if you attack with just it then it'll use your strength-and-a-half. And when you full attack it's just another free attack (albeit at a minus five).

So you can rage for +2 to hit for free, at level three you'll be getting +2 to hit from divine favor as a swift--and it goes up from there, and next turn your next swift action can enhance your weapon for a larger bonus. (or do it all in one turn by not swift-casting via fervor and use your standard action to buff) Playing my PFS warpriest (with no bloodrager levels) through 11 I don't see a +1 being necessary.

I'd pick a trait that gives you a lot of functionality. Maybe something like Oathbound--while not fun, and while you've got a good will save, it'll save you (and your party's) butt when you need it.


Claude, I'm very appreciative of your thoughtful reply. I just now had a moment to look at it. You raise some interesting points, and I trust your judgement. I will consider this carefully. However, the +2 to all saves seems too good to give up the Sacred Tattoo/Fate's Favored combo. The trait is interesting. Again, I will consider this. When I did some initial number crunching on this build, I found that iterative attacks were still missing bosses later on.

I thought about a Half Orc Nightmare (Sacred) Fist Warpriest with Behind the Veil and Elipse Spell: Light. There could be some interesting combos in there too with Intimidate, especially with a Bloodrager dip. But I'm sticking with the above for this character.

All best,
The Other


Oh, my bad - got Tusked and Toothy confused.

You're right about Finish the Fight at high levels. I ran the numbers, and Toothy gives me about 8 DPR at 11th level - certainly its impact would be felt earlier (note that this is still more DPR than Double Slice).

Lessons of Chaldira, though, with the saves that I will have, could prove more worthwhile. Thoughts?


Nice build.

I've been pretty impressed with ID Rager for dipping myself. I really dig Anger for free Power attack and +2 to STR.

You might want to run the numbers cause it's quite possible that +2 STR adds up to more DPR than the virtual size increase.


Thanks Alex. Problem with Anger (which rules for Two-Handed builds) is the -2 Dex and Two Weapon Fighting/Improved Two Weapon Fighting feats.

What do you think of for the second trait after Fate's Favored? Lessons of Chaldira or Tusked?


Should say too that Chess and Claude (see above) have helped me a ton on this build. Really has been their brainchild.


If this is for PFS then I'd advise against Tusked. I've gotten some very weird rulings on it (including in a game with anumber of 4 or 5 star gms who agreed that if it worked according to NA rules it would be sooo overpowered...) which have led me to discard a character who relied on it.

Lessons of Chalidra has an RP requirement but is lkiely the second most powerful trait in the game.

How's the penalty to dex a problem for TWF? I don't think that you loose your ability to TWF if your dex drops below 15. S

Then again Power Attack isn't all that good while twf either.

Silver Crusade

Chess Pwn wrote:
Hatred is a pretty good option too. As a move action you get a +2 attack and 1/2 your HIT DICE to damage, so it'll keep scaling as you level. Plus it offers skill focus perception.

I am pretty sure the damage does not scale as the text in the ID Rager archetype specifically states that your phantom HD is equal to your bloodrager level.

When the id rager enters a bloodrage, he gains additional powers as if he were a phantom (Pathfinder RPG Occult Adventures 78) with the emotional focus he selected as his atavistic focus. He is considered to be both a phantom and a spiritualist for the purposes of abilities whose effect references both a phantom and a spiritualist, such as a dedication phantom’s dutiful strike, --->and treats his bloodrager level as both his spiritualist level and his phantom Hit Dice when determining abilities and save DCs.<--- This ability does not allow the id rager to become incorporeal.

I do not know how to bold stuff in here but it is in the text above.


ah dang, I forgot that. oh well, bye-bye hatred for dipping.


So out of courisosity how are you gonna utilize behind the veil? 50% mis chance does sound like a rather sexy defense are there any self bufffs that turn it on?


Morning, Alex. To your first question about Dex and TWF, from the CRB:

"Some feats have prerequisites. Your character must have the indicated ability score, class feature, feat, skill, base attack bonus, or other quality designated in order to select or use that feat. A character can gain a feat at the same level at which he gains the prerequisite.
A character can’t use a feat if he loses a prerequisite, but he does not lose the feat itself. If, at a later time, he regains the lost prerequisite, he immediately regains full use of the feat that prerequisite enables."

To your second question about Behind the Veil: I hope to use it by taking the feat Eclipse Spell and choosing Light, thereby giving me an Orison Darkness, which could keep me in low-light throughout the day. As powerful as this seems to be, I still need to find a way to fit it into the build. There isn't a lot of wiggle room until the higher levels.

The Other


The Other wrote:

Morning, Alex. To your first question about Dex and TWF, from the CRB:

"Some feats have prerequisites. Your character must have the indicated ability score, class feature, feat, skill, base attack bonus, or other quality designated in order to select or use that feat. A character can gain a feat at the same level at which he gains the prerequisite.
A character can’t use a feat if he loses a prerequisite, but he does not lose the feat itself. If, at a later time, he regains the lost prerequisite, he immediately regains full use of the feat that prerequisite enables."

To your second question about Behind the Veil: I hope to use it by taking the feat Eclipse Spell and choosing Light, thereby giving me an Orison Darkness, which could keep me in low-light throughout the day. As powerful as this seems to be, I still need to find a way to fit it into the build. There isn't a lot of wiggle room until the higher levels.

The Other

Hmm okay I guess I was off on the TWF prerequisites as the penalty incured functions differently from abilityy damage or penalties incurred due to size increases...

Wow yeah the trick with the light cantrip seems pretty powerful. Sadly it won't work against darkvision but still rather awesome and nice falvor...I might have to try that out myself...

You could make your build work easily without the bloodrager dip... that would free up 2 feats afterall.


I'm just a noob, Alex, so I could be wrong about the TWF, but it seemed like it wouldn't work, judging from the CRB text.

I'm pretty set on the Bloodrager dip at this point, as much for flavor as for power. Will be toying with his today, as this character will have his first session tonight, and it will be his only session at first level.

The Other


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Regarding the Anger Emotional Focus and TWF, I seem to have a confirmation (you are correct):

"Some spells and abilities cause you to take an ability penalty for a limited amount of time. While in effect, these penalties function just like ability damage, but they cannot cause you to fall unconscious or die. In essence, penalties cannot decrease your ability score to less than 1."

And on ability damage: "Diseases, poisons, spells, and other abilities can all deal damage directly to your ability scores. This damage does not actually reduce an ability, but it does apply a penalty to the skills and statistics that are based on that ability."

Very interesting. Let me run some numbers (ie put numbers in the DPR spreadsheet - I don't have a clue how to do it on my own).

The Other


The Other wrote:

Regarding the Anger Emotional Focus and TWF, I seem to have a confirmation (you are correct):

"Some spells and abilities cause you to take an ability penalty for a limited amount of time. While in effect, these penalties function just like ability damage, but they cannot cause you to fall unconscious or die. In essence, penalties cannot decrease your ability score to less than 1."

And on ability damage: "Diseases, poisons, spells, and other abilities can all deal damage directly to your ability scores. This damage does not actually reduce an ability, but it does apply a penalty to the skills and statistics that are based on that ability."

Very interesting. Let me run some numbers (ie put numbers in the DPR spreadsheet - I don't have a clue how to do it on my own).

The Other

Dedication likely comes out ahead due to the to hit and damage increases edging the benefit of +2 STR.

However you have to consider that the Dedication bonuses are conditional while the bonus from anger is unconditional. Mooks usually drop after one full attack, while possibly not attacking you at all. Single foes might not target you at all either.
Also the usefulness of Power Attack is strongly dependent on your to hit for TWF and might actually negatively affect your DPR from time to time.


Yes, there are a lot of interesting considerations. Dedication also gives Iron Will, which is nothing to sneeze at.

If I go with Dedication, I will plan on delaying to the bottom of the order, and also taking on any positive abilities/items that negatively impact initiative (Flawed Dark Blue Rhomboid Ioun Stone, for example: 300 GP for +2 Perception, -1 Initiative).

This might count me out of a few battles, but I kind of like the idea of always trying to go last, also ensuring that I get whatever buffs others might be throwing out.

And, as you've mentioned, there is the possibility of losing the Bloodrager dip altogether. Delaying Warpriest by one level does hurt quite a bit. The access to the Furious enchantment, however, tips the scales for me (in addition to all of the other goodies: Fast Movement, ability to use arcane wands, Bloodrage, Id Rager archetype, early hit points).

Grand Lodge

The Other wrote:

Claude, I'm very appreciative of your thoughtful reply. I just now had a moment to look at it. You raise some interesting points, and I trust your judgement. I will consider this carefully. However, the +2 to all saves seems too good to give up the Sacred Tattoo/Fate's Favored combo. The trait is interesting. Again, I will consider this. When I did some initial number crunching on this build, I found that iterative attacks were still missing bosses later on.

I thought about a Half Orc Nightmare (Sacred) Fist Warpriest with Behind the Veil and Elipse Spell: Light. There could be some interesting combos in there too with Intimidate, especially with a Bloodrager dip. But I'm sticking with the above for this character.

All best,
The Other

I definitely wasn't trying to suggest dropping Fate's Favored--that's basically a necessity for a half-orc warpriest. But one thing I didn't consider is that you plan on fighting with two weapons. So with that in mind that definitely ups the usefulness of having +1 to hit--but I don't like that you have to hit them before it becomes beneficial. If you get to full attack then it will shine, but if you only get one attack on any given enemy your trait is basically non-existent.


Thanks, Claude. At this point I'm torn between Finish the Fight and Lessons of Chaldira. It seems as if the latter will be more powerful over the long run (especially if combined with Cleromancy).

Grand Lodge

Lessons of Chaldira requires you to worship Chaldira which leaves you with the Blessing choices of Good, Trickery, and War (and favored weapon short sword, though that doesn't really matter as long as you don't want feats related to your god's favored weapon (which you don't)).

Really, though, I never have a chance to use my blessings so that choice may not matter.

I think you'll be better of with Lessons of Chaldira than Finish the Fight. You've got enough pluses (rage, Fate's Favored, your furious weapon(s) you'll get, and your spells (i.e. Divine Favor)) that I don't think you'll miss the +1 from Finish the Fight. This is just my gut/experience telling me this without actual math/dpr calculations, though.


No worries with the Blessings, as I'll be an Arsenal Chaplain Warpriest (though the Chaldira Blessings are very good ones for the Warpriest in general, making the trait even better for Warpriests).

I will use the Blessings towards the end, however, thanks to Quicken Blessing.

Yes, I think you're right. I like the flavor of Lessons of Chaldira, too, finding some synergy with this exceedingly fortunate, Chaotic Good Half-Orc. That settles it.

Grand Lodge

The Other wrote:

No worries with the Blessings, as I'll be an Arsenal Chaplain Warpriest (though the Chaldira Blessings are very good ones for the Warpriest in general, making the trait even better for Warpriests).

I will use the Blessings towards the end, however, thanks to Quicken Blessing.

Yes, I think you're right. I like the flavor of Lessons of Chaldira, too, finding some synergy with this exceedingly fortunate, Chaotic Good Half-Orc. That settles it.

I just took a closer look at the Arsenal Chaplain and I don't understand why every offensive warpriest wouldn't want to be one. It's almost worth spending the 20 prestige to retrain my 11th level PFS warpriest into one.


Hat tip to Chess for the Arsenal Chaplain suggestion.

As I am want to do, I am doing some last minute considerations of totally different builds: Human Arsenal Chaplain Archer, Zen Archer/Arsenal Chaplain, etc.


So I'm not sure what you decided about the anger dex penalty and TWF, but When I asked about enlarge person and TWF I got the response that my feats don't stop working cause the score isn't actually lower.

Grand Lodge

Chess Pwn wrote:
So I'm not sure what you decided about the anger dex penalty and TWF, but When I asked about enlarge person and TWF I got the response that my feats don't stop working cause the score isn't actually lower.

Yeah, ability damages and penalties only actually affect a subset of things that are based on those scores--but your actual score is still the same. Ability drain sucks though. It actually changes your score so you'd lose your feats.

The anger spirit is just a penalty so you wouldn't lose your TWF feat.


Thanks Chess, yeah, I figured that out (see above). I'm good to go, rolling with Dedication. Iron Will alone is almost enough to make me do it, not to mention Dutiful Strike.

Thanks again so much to you both for all of your help with this build. Will let you know how it goes in one of these threads.


Can a single class ID Rager be any good?

Silver Crusade

Woodoodoo wrote:
Can a single class ID Rager be any good?

Very much so, especially when you hit 8th level and can switch out your Emotional Foci once a day.

Also remember that Bloodragers can use wands from level 1.


The main issue with single class ID rager is that almost no other archetypes stack with it.

And while feasible it probably doesn't hold up to Arcane or Abyssal Bloodlines in power.

Also most Emotional Focuses have useless abilities somewhere along the way...

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