What are the Moral Planes For


Advice


I was playing a neutral evil wizard when a good aligned paladin took me to abandon. When I got there I was not sure if I should fear what was their or enjoy what was there. So my question is how do people of that alignment see that plane and the other planes and how the creatures there treat the people


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

How many ranks in Knowledge (Planes) does your character have? How powerful are they? Abaddon isn't a fun place to be unless you have enough power to control the dangers, so unless your Wizard is high level, just because it is Evil-aligned isn't going to make him/her/it feel very positive about it.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

Everyone sees the plane the same way, in Abaddon's case it appears as a desolate wasteland populated with Daemons. The creatures there are soul-eating evil outsiders that would almost certainly attempt to end any living creature that dared to trespass in their domain.

Whether your wizard fears, anticipates, or never plans on dying and being sent to Abaddon is basically up to you. I can't imagine anyone who truly enjoys a desolate wasteland, but to each their own.


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Essentially, Abaddon is a realm populated and ruled by countless people from across the cosmos who are just as bad (or worse) than your wizard.

On one hand, you're actually among your peers.

On the other hand, your peers are awful (just like you =P).

You're in entire dimension populated by and run by nihilistic psychopaths. Head over to Archives of Nethys and look at the Daemon Harbingers and the Four Horsemen to get an idea of what the rulers of Abaddon are like.

If you aren't powerful, the typical native of Abaddon is going to view you as prey/sport.

If you are powerful, you could well secure a patron of some sort.

Also, the typical daemon of Abaddon will be much more open and proactive about their evil, for they have no @#$%^&* left to give.


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The closest thing I've found that describes how Abaddon works is Hueco Mundo from the Bleach manga/anime. Daemons are generated from the souls of mortals who died in suffering and agony. They hunger for souls but also an end to their own suffering. As opposed to Devils and Demons who collect souls (Devils as a currency of sorts and Demons as playthings) Daemons consume and destroy souls, absorbing the energy into their own being. It's a form of survival of the fittest, similar to the Demons of the Abyss, but the Demons have fun doing it; they enjoy the brutal freedom of CE. Daemons, on the other hand, aren't doing it for the fun of it. They are paradoxical; they hunger for power to avoid being, themselves, consumed, but they also wish for a final end to their suffering. The ultimate form of that is the destruction of the entire metaverse. Think Azrael from the movie Dogma; "Have you ever been to Hell, mortal? I'd rather not exist than to go back there." Remember, Outsiders don't "die"; they are the energy of their soul so, often, those in Abaddon will have their soul energy absorbed into some more powerful Daemon; their existence will continue, but they have no control over it. Even if one dies without being consumed by another, their energy will be absorbed into the very background of the plane itself. Again, they still "exist", but they have not tangible control over themselves. The only way to break the cycle of existence and suffering is to destroy the whole thing.

So, basically, A LE person in Hell would want to climb the diabolic corporate ladder (though, they leave any semblance of their mortal life behind in the process). A CE person in the Abyss would have fun slaughtering as many as he can, completely unfettered. A NE person in Abaddon just tries to survive as best they can, overpowering when they can, escaping when they can't overpower, and being consumed when they can't escape. They don't enjoy consuming other souls, but they enjoy the prospect of being consumed even less.


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So, what are the other evil planes like? Not great, really.

The Abyss is Chaotic evil, so expect constant backstabbing and attempts to kill you and take all you own. A fun note is that demons also eat the souls of newcomers, the larva, it is just that they aren't all about that. It is like a guy that occasionally smokes a joint, but has a friend that is constantly blaring bob marley songs and always wears a t-shirt with weed printed on it. Basically, expect at any moment for something powerful to show up and try to kill you. Unlike with Abadon, where there are often distinct reasons and benefits behind killing you, a demon might do it 'cause it was funny' or the like.

Hell is could be nice... if you are in a good position. Unfortunately, as the lawful evil plane, it is going to have a MUCH higher bar of power before you can start off comfortably. "Paying your dues" and all that by spending a few thousand years as a lemur slave. Once you are established, you can get usually get your surroundings to a somewhat comfortable level... although your subordinates will constantly jockey for your favor until they can find a chance to jockey for your position. Also, superiors will be more than willing to push hard tasks and blame onto you. Much more stability generally, but the attacks will be all the more biting digging deep at your core.


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For a Lawful Evil plane, imagine that you are Dilbert, and that the Pointy-Haired Boss, Catbert the Evil HR Director, and Mordac the Preventer of Information Services are, none of them, the fundamentally light-hearted, friendly, helpful, and generous characters we see in the comic.

Evil is not a team jersey where everyone on the same side works together, like good (mostly) is. Evil is a way of doing things -- specifically, the way that sees "me first" as the organizing principle of the universe. No one out there is on your side, at all.


The moral planes are "Heaven". Every soul in existence has a moral alignment, and thus it's own version of "Heaven". Lawful Good souls go to LG heaven, or in this case, Heaven.

Heaven wrote:

The soaring mountain of Heaven towers high above the Outer Sphere. This ordered realm of honor and compassion is divided into seven layers. Heaven's slopes are filled with planned, orderly cities and tidy, cultivated gardens and orchards. Though they began their existences as mortals, Heaven's native archons see law and good as indivisible halves of the same exalted concept, and array themselves against the cosmic perversions of chaos and evil.

Heaven has the following traits:

Divinely Morphic: Deities with domains in Heaven can alter the plane at will.

Strongly Law-Aligned and Strongly Good-Aligned

Enhanced Magic: Spells and spell-like abilities with the lawful or good descriptor are enhanced.

Impeded Magic: Spells and spell-like abilities with the chaotic or evil descriptor are impeded.

Whereas Chaotic Evil souls go to CE heaven, or in this case, The Abyss:

The Abyss wrote:

Surrounding the Outer Sphere like the impossibly deep skin of an onion, the layered plane of the Abyss begins as gargantuan canyons and yawning chasms in the fabric of the other Outer Planes, bordered by the foul waters of the River Styx. Coterminous with all of the Outer Planes, the infinite layers of the Abyss connect to one another in constantly shifting pathways. There are no rules in the Abyss, nor laws, order, or hope. The Abyss is a perversion of freedom, a nightmare realm of unmitigated horror where desire and suffering are given demonic form, for the Abyss is the spawning ground of the innumerable races of demons, among the oldest beings in all the Great Beyond.

The Abyss has the following traits:

Divinely Morphic and Sentient: Deities with domains in the Abyss can alter the plane at will, as can the Abyss itself.

Strongly Chaos-Aligned and Strongly Evil-Aligned

Enhanced Magic: Spells and spell-like abilities with the chaotic or evil descriptor are enhanced.

Impeded Magic: Spells and spell-like abilities with the lawful or good descriptor are impeded.

Two completely different afterlives for two completely different souls, who lived their lives completely different ways. The same holds true for the 7 other alignments.


The moral planes are about stripping away the illusions about who you are/were. No plane strips away more illusions than Abaddon, which doesn't even have the possible comforts of advancement (Hell) or sick fun (Abyss).

Scarab Sages

If you're looking to make more use of the outer planes and outsiders in general, there is some excellent material for that in this book here.


Mechagamera wrote:
The moral planes are about stripping away the illusions about who you are/were. No plane strips away more illusions than Abaddon, which doesn't even have the possible comforts of advancement (Hell) or sick fun (Abyss).

Well, you have the illusion of self satisfactions since you apparently see the world 'as it really is'.

Cue terrible metal music with lines like "crawling in my skin", or "wake me up inside". Only...y'know...there are things actually crawling in your skin (your slam attack latches parasites onto the target, causing con damage) and such. Not sure what special ability I can do with the latter lyric.

I suppose that reach plane represents the environment that you see the world with: dog eat dog (hell), a world where everyone wrecks at their leisure (abyss), a world without meaning and you might as well chase base pleasures to bide your time until the end (abadon), etc.


lemeres wrote:
Mechagamera wrote:
The moral planes are about stripping away the illusions about who you are/were. No plane strips away more illusions than Abaddon, which doesn't even have the possible comforts of advancement (Hell) or sick fun (Abyss).

Well, you have the illusion of self satisfactions since you apparently see the world 'as it really is'.

Cue terrible metal music with lines like "crawling in my skin", or "wake me up inside". Only...y'know...there are things actually crawling in your skin (your slam attack latches parasites onto the target, causing con damage) and such. Not sure what special ability I can do with the latter lyric.

I suppose that reach plane represents the environment that you see the world with: dog eat dog (hell), a world where everyone wrecks at their leisure (abyss), a world without meaning and you might as well chase base pleasures to bide your time until the end (abadon), etc.

I'mma go with "your skeleton animates and bursts from your flesh" for the second lyric.


Serisan wrote:
lemeres wrote:
Mechagamera wrote:
The moral planes are about stripping away the illusions about who you are/were. No plane strips away more illusions than Abaddon, which doesn't even have the possible comforts of advancement (Hell) or sick fun (Abyss).

Well, you have the illusion of self satisfactions since you apparently see the world 'as it really is'.

Cue terrible metal music with lines like "crawling in my skin", or "wake me up inside". Only...y'know...there are things actually crawling in your skin (your slam attack latches parasites onto the target, causing con damage) and such. Not sure what special ability I can do with the latter lyric.

I suppose that reach plane represents the environment that you see the world with: dog eat dog (hell), a world where everyone wrecks at their leisure (abyss), a world without meaning and you might as well chase base pleasures to bide your time until the end (abadon), etc.

I'mma go with "your skeleton animates and bursts from your flesh" for the second lyric.

I'm starting to want to make a campaign where the enemies are based off of song lyrics.

...wait, isn't that basically Jojo's Bizarre Adventure? Am I accidentally making outsiders into Stands?

Scarab Sages

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One thing to keep in mind is that most characters probably wouldn't guess their own alignments correctly. People in general are great at rationalizing and self-deception, and many characters labeled as Evil would be surprised to learn that about themselves.

If the paladin can convince the wizard that Abbadon is truly where the wizard's soul will wind up in the afterlife, then that could provoke several reactions from the wizard. Seeking redemption, abandoning all pretense of good and doubling down on evil, and swerving away from neutral evil into lawful evil or chaotic evil are all possibilities.

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