Bow and Buckler questions


Rules Questions

The Exchange

When you're using a bow, you can be wearing a buckler without taking any attack penalties, however you do lose the shield bonus from your buckler to your AC(unless you go take some feats).

a) Do you lose the enhancement bonus from your buckler to your ac?
b) For spellcasting, can you transfer your bow to your buckler hand and start waving fingers with the other?

Thanks.


a) Yes, The enhancement bonus is to the shield bonus. If you lose the shield bonus you lose everything associated with it.
b) Yes, same as you can with a light shield.

Liberty's Edge

Also note, you DO take a -1 attack penalty to the bow while wearing a buckler.


CBDunkerson wrote:
Also note, you DO take a -1 attack penalty to the bow while wearing a buckler.

Then what does this mean?

PRD wrote:

BUCKLER

This small metal shield is worn strapped to your forearm. You can use a bow or crossbow without penalty while carrying it. ...

Liberty's Edge

Huh. Somehow I glossed right over the bow/crossbow line and just remembered;

"You can also use your shield arm to wield a weapon (whether you are using an off-hand weapon or using your off hand to help wield a two-handed weapon), but you take a –1 penalty on attack rolls while doing so."

Using a bow/crossbow IS wielding a two-handed weapon... so the two sentences would seem to be contradictory. I would guess those two should be treated as exceptions.


CBDunkerson: A bow is a weapon that uses two hands and that is not the same as a two handed weapon. As far as weapon designations go, it's a ranged weapon, not a two handed weapon.

Crossbows are even clearer on this point. You don't even NEED two hands to attack with them.

Liberty's Edge

graystone wrote:
CBDunkerson: A bow is a weapon that uses two hands and that is not the same as a two handed weapon. As far as weapon designations go, it's a ranged weapon, not a two handed weapon.

Yes and no. There ARE instances where the rules attempt to classify ranged weapons into one and two handed classifications... Shadowcraft weapons for example.

That said, if we make the 'uses two hands' vs 'two-handed' distinction then that would mean nets, rope darts, tube arrow shooters, spear-slings, and other such weapons also should not take a penalty... but are not listed.

Grand Lodge

Regardless, the line specifically calling out bows and crossbows as not incurring a penalty is the one to use based on specific vs. General.


The distinction only matters if you "use your shield arm to wield a weapon". Uses a weapon with two hands isn't wielding it with an off hand.

"nets, rope darts, tube arrow shooters, spear-slings, and other such weapons" need no exemption from the penalty as they aren't "using an off-hand weapon or using your off hand to help wield a two-handed weapon". Nowhere do these weapon require an off hand to wield, just to reload.

Now rope dart most likely should use both hands if it was meant to reflect the real world, but the rules don't follow that. Only weapons ranged weapons that ACTUALLY have the two handed weapon listing, like firearms, would fall under that rule except they have an exemption too. "Bucklers: You can use a one-handed or two-handed firearm without penalty while carrying a buckler."

It seems pretty clear, ranged weapons are fine to use with bucklers.

The Exchange

Another thread stated you don't lose shield properties(like fortification) when you're using your bow. So I'm trying to see if you lose the enhancement bonus or not.

I agree ranged weapons are fine to use with bucklers, since the buckler rules itself specifically said so.

At least spellcasting isn't affected, so I might consider a buckler for ac bonus when I'm not shooting, as I don't think I ever want to use a melee weapon. Any drawbacks of a buckler and bow arrangement?


If you lose the shield bonus you by necessity lose any enhancements to that shield bonus.


Can't think of any drawbacks, aside from cash expenditure and encumbrance. Oh, and you're likely not using a twohander as a backup melee weapon.

Grand Lodge

I believe you do lose the shield bonus while attacking with a bow since a bow requires 2 hands and it states that you lose the shield bonus until your next turn when you use a weapon in your off hand.


Jurassic Pratt wrote:
I believe you do lose the shield bonus while attacking with a bow since a bow requires 2 hands and it states that you lose the shield bonus until your next turn when you use a weapon in your off hand.

"when you use a weapon in your off hand" isn't the correct trigger, it's "use your shield arm to wield a weapon". Using your offhand isn't the same as wielding with your off hand. Reloading your ranged weapon with your offhand doesn't mean it wields the weapon in said offhand.

Grand Lodge

graystone wrote:
Jurassic Pratt wrote:
I believe you do lose the shield bonus while attacking with a bow since a bow requires 2 hands and it states that you lose the shield bonus until your next turn when you use a weapon in your off hand.
"when you use a weapon in your off hand" isn't the correct trigger, it's "use your shield arm to wield a weapon". Using your offhand isn't the same as wielding with your off hand. Reloading your ranged weapon with your offhand doesn't mean it wields the weapon in said offhand.
You seems to have missed a part of the buckler description
PRD wrote:
In any case, if you use a weapon in your off hand, you lose the buckler’s Armor Class bonus until your next turn.

The part where it mentions wielding is referring -1 penalty you get when using your shield arm to wield a weapon, which it specifically states does not apply to bows and is a non-issue.

Thus my earlier statement still stands.


Just a Mort wrote:
Another thread stated you don't lose shield properties(like fortification) when you're using your bow. So I'm trying to see if you lose the enhancement bonus or not.

A +1 buckler does not give a +1 shield bonus and a +1 enhancement bonus to your armor class. It gives a +2 shield bonus. The enhancement bonus is not applied to your AC, it is applied to the shield bonus (or armor bonus, if armor), and that is applied to your armor class. IF you lose the shield bonus, there is nothing for the enhancement bonus to be applied to.


Jurassic Pratt: It seems to me it means "use a weapon in your off hand" in the same way it says "use your shield arm to wield a weapon".

Grand Lodge

I can see your point of view, but due to the deliberately different phrasing I'm inclined to believe that it is meant to make you lose your shield bonus to AC while using a bow.


Meh. When you use a bow, it's held in your non-dominant hand, right? The one whose arm usually sports a shield?

Personally, I think older versions (well, 3.0 at least?) let you not lose the AC bonus, but it is what it is.


A Buckler has a -1 Armor Check Penalty, so it dose give a -1 to your Dex/Str skill checks. But is a to hit roll or damage roll a skill check? I would say no it doesn't.


You do not lose the bonus from the buckler while carrying* the shield. There is no rule that says you do.

*Carrying is not the same us wielding/using.

You do however lose the bonus while using a two handed weapon.

A ranged weapon does use two hands, but two-handed weapons are a specific designation that refers to melee weapons

Quote:


Light, One-Handed, and Two-Handed Melee Weapons: This designation is a measure of how much effort it takes to wield a weapon in combat. It indicates whether a melee weapon, when wielded by a character of the weapon's size category, is considered a light weapon, a one-handed weapon, or a two-handed weapon.
--------------------------------------------

Two-Handed: Two hands are required to use a two-handed melee weapon effectively. Apply 1-1/2 times the character's Strength bonus to damage rolls for melee attacks with such a weapon.

However the buckler entry does say:

Quote:
In any case, if you use a weapon in your off hand, you lose the buckler's AC bonus until your next turn.

I think it is fair to say that if you use a bow your off-hand could not be used to wield another weapon. So if your off is being used with the bow you lose the AC.

I don't see anything calling out a bow and stating a penalty.

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