Lvl 5 Wizard Bonus Feat, for the love of Golarion, I can't decide


Advice


I'm a Wizard (doh), Level 5

You might remember me from posts like:

RotR, constant wipes
Oracle healer only healing, not buffing. Refusing to do damage!

Conjuration Teleportation School
Opposed = Enchantment, Enchantment! - Divination
Feats = Imp Initiative, SF Conjuration, Augment Summoning, Superior Summoning

Feral Speech = fluff reasons. Wizard without feats are already OP, why need more power?

Focused Spell = +2 to the big guy on that Glitterdust? Doesn't sound bad, I guess, why don't take it as a rod, then?

Fast Study = how useful is this? In our campaign time for preparing spells hasn't been an issue. If you have 1 min to fill a slot, wouldn't you have 15 min?

Quicken = seems too early to take, I wouldn't even be able to use it until lvl 9, and there only for level 1 spells. Quickened shield? How useful can that be? Yeah, I screw action economy, but I'm wasting a 5th level slot for it.

Craft Wands = If I take this, it's only because I want to get Staff Like Wand. I honestly LOVE the idea behind that feat. But right now, I feel like I will only take it if Amazing Tools of Manufacture allow me to craft 2000 gold worth of Wands in 1 hour.
Why? Because I don't feel like taking Ring of Sustenance and isolate myself in a Rope Trick spell for 8 hours to craft wands.
A level 4 Wands is 21k, which means 10 days of work at 2k/day ratio

Metamagic in general = I can't find many reason to take them, unless I'm missing something? It seems a Rod would be more useful. I can even take Craft Rod and don't ever need the feat to get its power.

On a side note = do you consider that crafting items are broken? Is the tax you pay enough to balance them?


Fast study makes a difference if you are trying to get things done before your buff spell's run out.


A couple of general suggestions:
1) post which level you are; the 5th wizard bonus feat is Level 20...

2) Most metamagic feats are indeed better as Rods, but you can't combine 2 Rods on the same spell; plus, are you going to try for Spell Perfection or even Preferred Spell? These need metamagic feats first.

3) Fast Study can be useful, as Melkiador notes. But not essential most of the time.

4) Crafting is crazy broken, or a waste of feats. Check with your GM - he/she might not want you to effectively double everyone's wealth. RotRL can be done with crafting time allowed, but only if your GM wants you to be able to craft. Otherwise it can be completed within a game-month or so.

5) You appear to be focussing on summoning? So, how about Summon Good Monster (if you are good, of course). My wizard in RotRL had it and Hound Archons were very useful because they are small and fitted inside my Emergency Force Sphere so I could summon safely and then release a batch of them at once.

Hope that helps. Have fun.


Gilarius wrote:

A couple of general suggestions:

1) post which level you are; the 5th wizard bonus feat is Level 20...

2) Most metamagic feats are indeed better as Rods, but you can't combine 2 Rods on the same spell; plus, are you going to try for Spell Perfection or even Preferred Spell? These need metamagic feats first.

3) Fast Study can be useful, as Melkiador notes. But not essential most of the time.

4) Crafting is crazy broken, or a waste of feats. Check with your GM - he/she might not want you to effectively double everyone's wealth. RotRL can be done with crafting time allowed, but only if your GM wants you to be able to craft. Otherwise it can be completed within a game-month or so.

5) You appear to be focussing on summoning? So, how about Summon Good Monster (if you are good, of course). My wizard in RotRL had it and Hound Archons were very useful because they are small and fitted inside my Emergency Force Sphere so I could summon safely and then release a batch of them at once.

Hope that helps. Have fun.

Updated info on main post.

2) Preferred Spell I can only think of Teleport, the only spell that might be always useful.
I'm not familiar with high level spells, as I've never played PF past level 7, and always used Divine Casters.
It seems to me that Preferred Spell it's oriented to either a "oh crap" spell or a "I wanna spam you no matter what". But I wouldn't have the slightest idea on which one to choose.

Spell Perfection is really high level. I'm not even sure Runelords gets that far. Seems a too far away scenario to be getting tons of metamagic feats for it.

3) Fast study. Buffs running out seems a good reason to take, and a very good one. Didn't consider that scenario where I could need a new spell. Will consider it in this new light.

4) Crafting only for Wands. I was going to all Crafting feats, but my DM said they were broken (even though they were allowed), and I didn't feel like having to play the "finding time to craft" game while adventuring. Also, our party kinda sucks at combat, and we sorta needed more man/woman power.

5) Summon Good Monster can't take it, it's not a Bonus Feat. I can only take Discoveries, Metamagic or Creation.
I will take it at 7 level, but I didn't think it was worth at level 5, the monsters I was getting weren't that great to justify it.


As written, RotRL characters reach 17th level, I think. So Spell Perfection is doable.

If your GM doesn't want you to craft, then don't. Negotiate about the possibility, or see if you can re-train if you find that your crafting feat isn't usable after all. Craft Wand is very useful, particularly for low-level buff spells you might want to cast frequently. And for spamming Enervation...

My bad about Summon Good. Sorry, and you're right that it isn't worth it at lower level. We didn't have any divine caster except a Paladin (until our Slayer died and made a Cleric, near the end of the AP), so my monsters were providing access to clerical spells.

I almost always take Craft Wondrous Item at 3rd level, followed by Craft Arms & Armour at 5th so I haven't really looked at the alternatives.

Otherwise, you can't lose out by having Fast Study. Just make sure that you use it.


Crafting can be problematic, I understand any GM who disallows it or restricts it to the point of non-functional.

Some other random options (of questionable value) as I think you have nailed most of the practical options, but one of them might strike a chord.

Take something quirky, like scouting summons and make it work.

Fast talk your GM into allowing acadamae graduate or a similarly non-craft/meta feat that is still very wizardly.

Or take a place-holder semi-useful feat and retrain it later.


A lot of the Arcane Discoveries are higher level. I wouldn't look into them too much.

Sacred Summons (creatures matching alignment summoned as a Standard Action) can be amazing, although you can't take it as a Bonus Feat.

A lot of the Metamagic spells aren't good for you unless you're a Blaster, and Wizards aren't meant for that. The only one I can consider is Extend spell, which doubles your Summons' durations, and for it being only one spell level higher, it's not bad (though if they're a distraction, it's kind of pointless). Otherwise, taking things like Silent or Still Spell are still good, especially in those situations where you can't talk or you're grappled.


dragonhunterq wrote:

Crafting can be problematic, I understand any GM who disallows it or restricts it to the point of non-functional.

Some other random options (of questionable value) as I think you have nailed most of the practical options, but one of them might strike a chord.

Take something quirky, like scouting summons and make it work.

Fast talk your GM into allowing acadamae graduate or a similarly non-craft/meta feat that is still very wizardly.

Or take a place-holder semi-useful feat and retrain it later.

Scouting Summons I like it, but we have a ninja. My main idea is not to step into other people roles. So if he invested into Stealth and Perception, I'm only going to help with Invisibility and things that enhance him. But it's a great suggestion nonetheless.

Acadamae Graduate, I LOVE it. But I can't take it. First because it's a Campaign Feat, and second because it's tied to 3.5. And Paizo never updated it to be something available to everyone.
I usually have a self-restriction policy on some things to avoid breaking the game or being too op.
Usually these leads to some tension in the party because we have very different views on what is good. I mean, my party wanted me to take Fireball at level 5... No way I was taking that, instead I took SM3 and Haste, which I think in a party with a Slayer+Ninja is much more useful, botch having 2W Fighting. But well, that is tied on how the party is composed and what they consider useful.
I can't think of a 5d6 for an average of 17 to be something WOW, when a DC 18 gets you half damage for a whooping 8...

I think Acadamae Graduate is a bit too good for what it does. Yes, fatigued is bad, but eventually you can just invest into a Wand and make its drawbacks non existent.

If my DM allows Amazing Tools of Manufacture, I'm going to take Craft Wand. This will cost me 2 additional feats (Craft Staff+Discovery) and at level 10 I can get Craft staff (using Ioun Stone for +1 CL) and at level 11 use a feat for a Discovery (Staff Like Wand)


If your GM doesn't want to allow crafting feats, then ask them for some trade-ins, because that is cutting almost 60% of the bonus feats in half or more. PFS trades Scribe Scroll for Spell Focus for example. I would add Greater Spell Focus, Spell Penetration, Improved Familiar and Weapon Focus (ray) to the bonus feat list. Many of the summoning feats have Spell Focus (conjuration) as a prerequisite so is a good candidate.

Craft Arms & Armor isn't over-powered in my opinion, because the 3X caster level means you will likely find a +3 weapon, before you can build one, or at least one for the whole party. Maybe your GM can nerf the other crafting feats to both your satisfactions.

Fast study adds a lot of flexibility to your spell choice when you leave a slot open. When you come to a situation that a random spell would solve perfectly, you can fill it fast.

EDIT: I've never seen that interpretation of an orange ioun stone before. Is that the rule for '+1 caster level'?


Curaigh wrote:


EDIT: I've never seen that interpretation of an orange ioun stone before. Is that the rule for '+1 caster level'?

It has been stated that Magic Items can make you qualify for feats, and if you love the item, you temporary lose the feat.

RD wrote:

Prerequisites

Some feats have prerequisites. Your character must have the indicated ability score, class feature, feat, skill, base attack bonus, or other quality designated in order to select or use that feat. A character can gain a feat at the same level at which he gains the prerequisite.

A character can't use a feat if he loses a prerequisite, but he does not lose the feat itself. If, at a later time, he regains the lost prerequisite, he immediately regains full use of the feat that prerequisite enables.


Intensified spell is a pretty good bang for the buck for damage type spells, if you don't go the casting route.

Scarab Sages

Letric wrote:
dragonhunterq wrote:

Crafting can be problematic, I understand any GM who disallows it or restricts it to the point of non-functional.

Some other random options (of questionable value) as I think you have nailed most of the practical options, but one of them might strike a chord.

Take something quirky, like scouting summons and make it work.

Fast talk your GM into allowing acadamae graduate or a similarly non-craft/meta feat that is still very wizardly.

Or take a place-holder semi-useful feat and retrain it later.

Scouting Summons I like it, but we have a ninja. My main idea is not to step into other people roles. So if he invested into Stealth and Perception, I'm only going to help with Invisibility and things that enhance him. But it's a great suggestion nonetheless.

Acadamae Graduate, I LOVE it. But I can't take it. First because it's a Campaign Feat, and second because it's tied to 3.5. And Paizo never updated it to be something available to everyone.
I usually have a self-restriction policy on some things to avoid breaking the game or being too op.
Usually these leads to some tension in the party because we have very different views on what is good. I mean, my party wanted me to take Fireball at level 5... No way I was taking that, instead I took SM3 and Haste, which I think in a party with a Slayer+Ninja is much more useful, botch having 2W Fighting. But well, that is tied on how the party is composed and what they consider useful.
I can't think of a 5d6 for an average of 17 to be something WOW, when a DC 18 gets you half damage for a whooping 8...

I think Acadamae Graduate is a bit too good for what it does. Yes, fatigued is bad, but eventually you can just invest into a Wand and make its drawbacks non existent.

If my DM allows Amazing Tools of Manufacture, I'm going to take Craft Wand. This...

Acadamae Graduate is PFS legal, so there is something to say for the belief it should be considered a full Pathfinder feat.

Feral speech is for more than fluff. My summoning wizard took it recently for commanding his animal summons. Also, for conversing with Paladin mounts. But that part is fluff.

Fast study is great for campaigns that give very little breaks between encounters. Otherwise it is rarely worth it.

Really, what you need to decide is what kind of wizard you are and then buff that aspect with a feat. Or, shore up any of your weaknesses.

So, what kind of wizard do you want this character to be?


A lot of metamagic is for blasting, which can basically be summed up as stick every metamagic in the game on a fireball, but there are useful ones for other playstyles, like persistent for save or lose etc. not much for summoning though. The reason to get feats instead of rods is that you can combine them and use them more than 3 times a day.


I'd suggest Greater Spell Focus (Conjuration). I assume you're using Glitterdust and the Pit series- extra DC never hurts.


Lorewalker wrote:

Acadamae Graduate is PFS legal, so there is something to say for the belief it should be considered a full Pathfinder feat.

Feral speech is for more than fluff. My summoning wizard took it recently for commanding his animal summons. Also, for conversing with Paladin mounts. But that part is fluff.

Fast study is great for campaigns that give very little breaks between encounters. Otherwise it is rarely worth it.

Really, what you need to decide is what kind of wizard you are and then buff that aspect with a feat. Or, shore up any of your weaknesses.

So, what kind of wizard do you want this character to be?

Didn't know that A Graduate was PFS, will speak to my DM about it, summoning as a Standard Action is much more useful, and will make it pretty clear that I want to specialize in summoning.

Feral Speech never considered to use it to commands my summons, that is a great idea!

I know I want so summon, Control the battlefield and buffs my allies. So far I'm taking spells for that, and feats for it.


Letric wrote:
Curaigh wrote:


EDIT: I've never seen that interpretation of an orange ioun stone before. Is that the rule for '+1 caster level'?
It has been stated that Magic Items can make you qualify for feats, and if you love the item, you temporary lose the feat.

I was referring to the '+1 caster level' not the feat prerequisite from an item part of your post.

I didn't think '+1 caster level' made a 10th level caster into an 11th level caster. I thought it only applied to those things affected by caster level such as duration, range, overcoming SR and the like. I certainly don't think it allows access to a spell level you couldn't already cast. For example at character level 10 a wizard with this stone would not have access to greater dispel magic, but his dispel magic be 1d20+11.

Or, to put it another way, 'caster level 11' refers to a spell. 'Caster level 11th refers to a character. But maybe I have old rules in my old brain, hence the reason I asked.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

You are correct. The pre req assumes you are a spellcaster of 11th level, not that you can reach 11th level when you cast a spell. Subtle but different.

An analogy would be that a feat requires having 5 levels as a Melee character, but as long as you had +5 TH, you're fine. Doesn't quite work.

==Aelryinth


Aelryinth wrote:

You are correct. The pre req assumes you are a spellcaster of 11th level, not that you can reach 11th level when you cast a spell. Subtle but different.

An analogy would be that a feat requires having 5 levels as a Melee character, but as long as you had +5 TH, you're fine. Doesn't quite work.

==Aelryinth

But it's the same. The feat doesn't require you to be level 11, only that you have a CL of 11.

Prerequisite: Caster level 11th.

Which is clearly different from Staff Like Wand

Prerequisite: You must be at least an 11th-level Wizard and must have the Craft Staff feat to select this discovery.

Caster Level is:
A spell's power often depends on its caster level, which for most spellcasting characters is equal to her class level in the class she's using to cast the spell.

Do I meed the CL 11th check? Yes. Then I can take the feat. There are no other restrictions on this.
No where does the feat say that I have to be a level 11 something.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

Do you ever (or plan to) summon multiple creatures at once? Empower might be useful for that. If you want A LOT of lower level summons...

Extend Spell is really good. Especially if you also buff or use battlefield control stuff too.

Greater Spell Focus will be great for when you get that feat that doubles numerical bonuses to a spell. But it's not metamagic or item creation....

Quicken Spell might not be useful now, but taking it now frees up later feat slots. Or you can take Quicken Spell at 10th level....

I've never seen Silent Spell or Still Spell in a game. Maybe the old Sudden Still from 3.5.

But if 3.5 stuff is allowed, I would go for a Reserve Feat. Those are just neat!

Dark Archive

Mages Tattoo is great. Cast all your Conjuration spells at +1 CL. Otherwise I'm a big fan of Reach Spell or Merciful Spell metamagic feats (I usually play spontaneous casters though so Rods may be more 'on the fly' for you.)

Improved Familiar can be useful in a lot of situations depending on which ones you qualify for. (Arbiter Inevitable is fantastic and nearly indestructible)

Any of the Summon Alignment Monster spells add some fun options to your summoning lists.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

Tenacious Spell might be useful if your GM tries to dispel your summons a lot.

Reach Spell might help, too.


How does Empower work with summons? It works for 1d3 or 1d4+1, both? What benefits do I get?

I might take A. Graduate if my DM allows it or Superior Summoning (normal feat, not the Bonus one). Normal one was going to be S. Summoning, but if I can get A. Graduate, much better.
Spell Perfection might be a possible choice, but it's really high level, and it has to be something with a DC, because otherwise Spell Focus will be wasted if it's doubled.

All the Reach, Extend will be rods 95% sure, unless I need the metamagic feats for Spell Perfection.

Improved familiar won't be a choice. I don't feel like dealing with another toon, and I'll have to worry it doesn't die. Plus I already have my summons and an Oracle maxing UMD. He's the one who's gonna cast all those crappy buffs probably.

Ain't sure about Dispel Magic, we're playing RotR, so far, no Dispels! but good suggestion.

Mage's Tattoo... I'm not sure. I fail to see how another CL on my Summons is going to be good. I have already Summoner's Charm, which gets me an extra 1/2 level/rounds on them. They're going to be harder to dispel true, and paired with Orange Ioun Stone (+1 CL) it can be a good thing, but I ain't completely sold if it's worth it a feat.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

You can Empower 1d3 or 1d4+1 to 1d3 x 1.5 (1.5 to 4.5 critters) or 1d4+1 x 1.5 (3 to 7.5 critters), so only really worth it if you want a lot of something from a level 3 or 4 lower than your maximum summoning level. So probably not worth it.


Quicken should be your lvl 10. The discoveries are all really specific, so I understand your problem. From the metasmagics I can really recommend Piercing Spell. It's only +1 and you might use it a lot more than rods can offer. Spell Resistance will be very common.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

The raw value of an orange ioun stone is 30k. Your WBL at 11th is only 60k. How in the world are you going to make it?

You're violating the 25% guideline if you dump half your wealth into the thing. And you can't make it until you are 12th level, anyways, so the point is moot.
That stone is the single most expensive ioun stone. Did you think it was cheap?

From the d20pfsrd:
Craft Wondrous Item, creator must be 12th level; Cost 15,000 gp.

==Aelryinth


Aelryinth wrote:

The raw value of an orange ioun stone is 30k. Your WBL at 11th is only 60k. How in the world are you going to make it?

You're violating the 25% guideline if you dump half your wealth into the thing. And you can't make it until you are 12th level, anyways, so the point is moot.
That stone is the single most expensive ioun stone. Did you think it was cheap?

From the d20pfsrd:
Craft Wondrous Item, creator must be 12th level; Cost 15,000 gp.

==Aelryinth

25% Guideline? What do you refer to? Couldn't I just save gold and buy what I want? I'm starting from level 1.

I thought there were only limitations of % when you create a high level PC only.

Well, it's kinda expensive lol now that you mention it. I used to have Craft Wondrous, but we died, so I switched up the feats: 15k doesn't sound so harsh compared to 30k.

If I don't get it through that item, there is not way to get, except taking another class (prestige) that will get me another CL on my Spellcasting class, so when I take the level 10th Wizard I can use the bonus feat to get Craftt Staff, then at my 11th Wizard (12 total CL) I will get as my normal feat the Arcane Discovery Staff like Wand.
I'm delaying it 1 level and I have to take a PrC, which sucks, I can't honestly think of a good PrC to take for a Wizard.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

Okay, I assumed you were just going to equip a high level character.

You are going to find it DIFFICULT to accrue 15k during normal play, because there's always things to spend money on.

The 25% guideline is for created characters, i.e. making a level 12 character whole cloth. Can't have more then 25% of your WBL in one object (to stop characters from having an awesome toy that normally they'd never save up the money to afford).

The WBL table is here: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/character-advancement

and is a general guideline for about how much gear they expect you to have.

As a rule of thumb, item creation should allow you to increase what you buy going forwards, but NOT retroactively, as that creates prompt party imbalance.

==Aelryinth

Scarab Sages

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Knowledge is Power is a fun discovery if allowed. Intelligence to break things, and you help your pitiful CMD.


Aelryinth wrote:

Okay, I assumed you were just going to equip a high level character.

You are going to find it DIFFICULT to accrue 15k during normal play, because there's always things to spend money on.

The WBL table is here: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/character-advancement
==Aelryinth

Yeah. I'm not even sure is that great of a Discovery right now. I could take it at level 13, without any "cheats". I was really liking the idea.

I'm checking with my DM if I can use Amazing Tools and Craft Wands, if I can do it, I might get it just to craft Wands and that's it. No improved familiar, no Staff like Wand.

I might take Feral Speech, at least I will be able to speak to animal

Imbicatus wrote:

Knowledge is Power is a fun discovery if allowed. Intelligence to break things, and you help your pitiful CMD.

I read it too. The "you add your int modifier" troubles me. Because even with 5 INT mod, I'm just adding a total of 3, because of the -2 to STR. It doesn't say it replaces STR for INT, so if I'm adding something to another thing that is subtracting, not that good imo.

Dark Archive

Leadership is always fantastic, even with a low cha score. I think there is a variant in Ultimate Intrigue that uses int, too.

Spell penetration is a decent feat. It's helpful for all your non-summoning spells.

Evolved summon monster is rather awesome. It gives a bit of flexibility to your already super flexible spell. Or, it makes your monsters even stronger. Give a monster resistance, improve their natural attacks, make their attacks magical to bypass DR, give it a bite for another natural attack, ect. There are many more options, but those are probably the strongest.


Ectar wrote:

Leadership is always fantastic, even with a low cha score. I think there is a variant in Ultimate Intrigue that uses int, too.

Spell penetration is a decent feat. It's helpful for all your non-summoning spells.

Evolved summon monster is rather awesome. It gives a bit of flexibility to your already super flexible spell. Or, it makes your monsters even stronger. Give a monster resistance, improve their natural attacks, make their attacks magical to bypass DR, give it a bite for another natural attack, ect. There are many more options, but those are probably the strongest.

Good suggestions, shame I can't take them though, since I only have to decide about the Bonus Feat, which is either Spell Mastery, Discovery, Metamagic or Item Creation.

From my understanding of the game, I will just skip all item creation whatsoever, I guess.

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