Pathfinder and 3.5 Interactions


Advice


So I recently (and by recently I mean in January) began DMing for a group of friends by running the Shackled City AP. I know it's an old one, but it was the AP that got me into this crazy world so I wanted to share it with others.

Anyway, before starting out I asked everyone for their character concepts and laid out some house rules.
-Everyone gets weapon finesse and qualifies as having it for later feats.
-3.5 feats are allowed.
-Players could choose between 3.5 and PF versions of classes, and so long as they could show me the page where they were getting it from, the PFSRD would be allowed as well.

What wound up happening was a human bloodrager, a human magus (he started out as a homebrew because I didn't know any better but he's since retrained his levels), a witch who's hiding her true race for reasons, and a drow bard.

So far it's going good and everyone's having fun, but about halfway through I had to make a change that I'm still to this day not sitting well with. I made it so all characters, both players and monsters, get full HD for HP. I had to do this because the party barbarian was literally 2-shotting bosses because he took Power Attack from 3.5 and then took Furious Focus. And then the party bard frontloaded all his buffs into him so his to-hit was through the roof. Making matters worse is the fact that the witch says "Misfortune" to all of the enemies (I know there's not much you can do about that one, but when the bloodrager says "hit me in 2 rounds or you dead" with that debuff, it gets hard to give the players a challenge).

I've brought the issue up with him before, but he is very...adamant. He's the type of guy who is still salty that Barbarians can only rage a certain number of rounds per day, and both he and the party know that he's the largest (and right now the ONLY) damage dealer in the party. So when I suggest he only be allowed to take the PF power attack or furious focus doesn't work with 3.5 power attack, he has at least 15 arguments on why damage is his only power and he should be allowed to keep it. Most of these arguments revolve around "Mages get HOW much damage? Yeah, that's what I thought." Plus, I made a change to Deadly Aim (I think that's what it was called? The ranged version of Power Attack) where if the player wanted to they could treat it as 3.5 power attack too (take a penalty up to your BAB for damage bonuses), because the guy playing Magus/Homebrew was going for ranged combat at the time and felt like he did no damage.

Additionally, at the start he expressed interest in the "Frenzied Berserker" prestige class, which I thought was a cool looking class and we both agreed it could use a little help in the "please don't TPK" department. So I said I'd let him not worry about it and that's his plan for the moment.

I feel like I've screwed up in multiple places here. Any help resolving these issues would be appreciated, as the bloodrager is a close personal friend and it's very hard for me to tell him "No you cant have all of the damage" when his immediate counter-argument is "Spells do what again?"

My goal here is for everyone at the table to have fun (even if as a DM I don't, as long as the players are happy and get through the story I'm happy). And for a while, it was fine and everyone WAS having fun. But with the party advancing into higher levels (they just hit 6 and are gearing up for the Demonskar Ball), the Bard is leaving and a new player just came in (playing an unchained rogue), and with the Magus trying (and failing) to be relevant in combat, I feel like the bloodrager is starting to step on some toes.


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Gunny --

I've been on both sides of the DM screen regarding bloodragers/barbarians, and I can certainly relate to your anxiety about the situation. I hope I can help with alleviating unnecessary doubts and advising where things may be adjustable for the benefit of all.

Power Attack/Deadly Aim -- You should really run these feats as paizo has published them. There are rare occasions where the 3.5 content is better (usually only in corner-case scenarios so rare that they are more infrequent in occurrence than honest politicians), but you should judge the parallel feats on a case-by-case basis, and usually go with the Pathfinder version. Furious Focus + 3.5 Power Attack is an absurd combination -- it seems innocuous at first, but soon you realize that the mathematics are just too strong. A -1/+X function at level one seems like a cool edge, but -6/+6*X actually functioning as --/+6*X, even for one attack, is unbelievably overpowered. Going with the PF 6th-level -2/+6 (or --/+6 for the first attack) is far more reasonable.

HP/HD -- Between the above adjustment and taking hit points back to standard progressions (rolls or the 51%), the math will stay very much the same in terms of action economy for your villains. Barbarians and bloodragers *are* supposed to be that outlandish in melee; your villains don't need HP, they need good tactics.

BBEG tactics -- minions, cronies, battlefield terrain, servants, lieutenants, schemes, meat shields, etc. will all do a lot to help make sure that your PCs' opponents actually get a chance to act, rather than dive straight into the meatgrinder. Bear in mind that good tactics on the part of your players will still make good encounters seem unfairly balanced in their favor -- don't take that away from them. Design/adjust your encounters so that the enemy has either a reasonable chance of knowing when to buff pre-combat, or solid contingency plans for emergencies; or do both. Find ways to use what the AP gives you to the maximum -- run mock encounters in the days leading up to the actual session, and see what things will likely have the highest impact.

Frenzied Berserker PrC -- Let him take it. Don't adjust it. If you're going to gain all the benefits of great risk without actually *taking* those risks, you're just . . . uhhhh . . . engaging in autoerotic manipulation. (Is that any more "dignified", phrased that way?)

"I'm not a wizard. Sniffle, sob!" -- I think you've allowed yourself to be bamboozled a bit here. If barbarians were meant to have "phenomenal cosmic powers", they'd be wizards, clerics, druids, or such like. If DPR is the only gauge by which your player is measuring his character's effectiveness, that's totally fine, but you're getting to the stage in terms of "appropriate encounters" where it will require multiple contributions from party members to keep him full attacking for the day. And if he goes Frenzerker, it'll take party effort to keep him from executing the TPK. Part of the game involves overcoming challenge and adversity -- let that continue to be part of your game; the whole party will appreciate it. If he wanted to be a wizard, he would have played one; it isn't as though he's been snookered into playing a suboptimal class -- the diminishing returns of martial characters (even lightly "paladinized" versions as the bloodrager) have been well documented for an extended period of time.

Fun time -- If your players are having fun, excellent. If you're not having fun, excellence negated. I favor being a bit sacrificial in that regard, but please don't make a martyr of your enjoyment -- you'll turn into the Ghost of Gaming Past: twisted and "evil".

I hope this helps!! Let us all know how it goes!!


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Thanks for the response!

These are all definitely points that I've considered before, especially the BBEG tactics section. The AP book I have is definitely giving me strategies, and I've even thrown in a few extra to try and spice things up (ie when the party found a bunch of ettercaps ina harpoon spider's lair, I used some of the ettercap web traps and almost got some people with them). Thats not my biggest issue I'm having, it's that the the party bard is taking nothing but buff spells and using them exclusively on the bloodrager, no one else, simply because the now-magus had a few bad damage rolls starting out.

And he's not bemoaning his not being a wizard, he's more complaining that wizards are able to do everyone's job (and often better than the class that's supposed to do it. This is mainly from him being brought into 3.5/PF by some of the BIGGEST powergamers I know, and their constant droning on and on about 'tier list this' and 'im not powergaming im telling how to properly play an underpowered class', and he doesnt want to be punished for just doing large damage while the party witch is sitting in the backline slinging hexes every turn for free (and the hexes often roll out to be a save or suck) and then also casting save or dies.

Its really just the fact that mages force OTHERS to roll that bothers him. No targeting or rolling to hit, just point your finger at someone and say "make a save". A regular phrase bandied about amongst our little group is "welcome to 3.5 pick your magic class".


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Blending 3.5 and Pathfinder is a little like blending pool cleaner and drain cleaner. HCl and NaOH react violently, and so do Pathfinder and 3.5.

I might have played a Sundering build, taking Great Cleave and Great Sunder, Combat Brute, which gives you a Free Attack after destroying an opponent's weapon or Shield, Pushback, which gives you a Free Bull Rush after every hit, Shock Trooper, which, if you Bull Rush one guy into another, you get a Free Trip Attempt on both, and then of course, Improved Trip, which will let you get a Free Attack on Both as they go down, triggering more Bull Rushes and more Trips. For a weapon, I'd take the Ancestral Relic Feat and design my own, a +1 Adamantine, Shatterspike Earthbreaker of the Titans, doing an extra +3/+3 when Sundering, bypassing the first 20 points of hardness, and doing Triple damage, which would pass to the wielder. Also, I'd take the Deadly Concussion Feat, which, when you Sunder your opponent's Armor or Shield, you inflict again as much damage upon the wearer.

A character like this can be doing thousands of points of damage by like level 8. Count yourself lucky your players didn't think of this!

Of course, I guess you can build this as an NPC if you think the party has gotten too powerful. Maybe instead of Great Cleave, put those Sundering Feats on a Thri-Kreen armed with 2 adamantine Gythkas...


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Your Bloodrager player is a little late to the party to be complaining that wizards do most of the damage in a party, about getting on towards 50 years late.

Ever since Dungeons and Dragons was invented, it was the Magic User who did most of the killing. It was the job of the Thief to handle most of the nonmonster hazards, the traps and puzzles. It was the job of the Fighter to keep the Magic User and Thief alive long enough for them to do their jobs, and it was the job of the Cleric to keep the Fighter alive.

Between 2nd and 3rd edition, and ever since, martial characters have been catching up, growing faster in power than Wizards have been. The Wizards and Sorcerers of 2016 are not that different from the Magic Users of 1984. The biggest change seems to be Concentration Check. In the old days, everyone automatically had Spring Attack and Mounted Combat, and Concentration Checks always automatically failed. But the effect of Feats is explosive.


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Scott Wilhelm wrote:

Your Bloodrager player is a little late to the party to be complaining that wizards do most of the damage in a party, about getting on towards 50 years late.

Ever since Dungeons and Dragons was invented, it was the Magic User who did most of the killing. It was the job of the Thief to handle most of the nonmonster hazards, the traps and puzzles. It was the job of the Fighter to keep the Magic User and Thief alive long enough for them to do their jobs, and it was the job of the Cleric to keep the Fighter alive.

Between 2nd and 3rd edition, and ever since, martial characters have been catching up, growing faster in power than Wizards have been. The Wizards and Sorcerers of 2016 are not that different from the Magic Users of 1984. The biggest change seems to be Concentration Check. In the old days, everyone automatically had Spring Attack and Mounted Combat, and Concentration Checks always automatically failed. But the effect of Feats is explosive.

This is wrong on so many levels.

Martials have gotten markedly worse in the conversion from AD&D 2nd Edition to 3rd. 3.5 made casters even better and Pathfinder raised the floor even higher for casters though they did lower the ceiling on high end optimization. Meanwhile Pathfinder went seemingly out of it's way to handicap the Fighter at every turn, giving everyone more feats (which devalues them) and then breaking up common Fighter feats into 2 feats (which again devalues them). Other martials *have* improved in PF, but nearly as much as casters.


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Anzyr wrote:
Scott Wilhelm wrote:

Your Bloodrager player is a little late to the party to be complaining that wizards do most of the damage in a party, about getting on towards 50 years late.

Ever since Dungeons and Dragons was invented, it was the Magic User who did most of the killing. It was the job of the Thief to handle most of the nonmonster hazards, the traps and puzzles. It was the job of the Fighter to keep the Magic User and Thief alive long enough for them to do their jobs, and it was the job of the Cleric to keep the Fighter alive.

Between 2nd and 3rd edition, and ever since, martial characters have been catching up, growing faster in power than Wizards have been. The Wizards and Sorcerers of 2016 are not that different from the Magic Users of 1984. The biggest change seems to be Concentration Check. In the old days, everyone automatically had Spring Attack and Mounted Combat, and Concentration Checks always automatically failed. But the effect of Feats is explosive.

This is wrong on so many levels.

Martials have gotten markedly worse in the conversion from AD&D 2nd Edition to 3rd. 3.5 made casters even better and Pathfinder raised the floor even higher for casters though they did lower the ceiling on high end optimization. Meanwhile Pathfinder went seemingly out of it's way to handicap the Fighter at every turn, giving everyone more feats (which devalues them) and then breaking up common Fighter feats into 2 feats (which again devalues them). Other martials *have* improved in PF, but nearly as much as casters.

I remember it very differently.

In AD&D, every weapon was an Exotic Weapon. Combat Maneuvers pretty much didn't exist. A fighter wouldn't get2 attacks/round before level 13. Fighters had fewer hit points than Druids with the same number of experience points.

And almost every Feat that exists didn't before 3rd Edition. In 3rd Edition there was a Feat called Knockback: every time you scored more than 10 points of damage on a hit, you got a free Trip attempt, and with Improved Trip, you got a Free hit on them as they went down. In 3.5, Elusive Target gave you a Free Trip Attempt whenever someone made an Attack of Opportunity against you for moving out of a Threatened Square, followed by free Attacks with Improved Trip. That could easily mean 6 attacks/round by level 6. No 2nd edition fighter could have dreamed of anything like that.

And did you see the combination I posted above? Combat Brute, Deadly Concussion, Pushback, Shock Trooper, and Improved Trip? You could set up all that stuff before level 9, cascading attack after attack. There was never anything like that in 2nd edition.

Attacks of Opportunity were things that could theoretically happen, but just about never did. In 3.5 and 3rd edition, those Tripping builds yielded attacks of opportunity whenever any of those people you tripped ever tried to get up! Hold the Line made it so whenever anyone charged you, you got an attack of opportunity. Backstab made it so you got an attack of opportunity whenever someone you Flanked attacked someone other than you.

There was a 3.0 Prestige Class called Weapon Master. 1/day/character level, you could decide you were doing your maximum weapon damage instead of rolling for damage. Your damage on a Crit would jump from double to triple, or from triple to quadruple, and you got a +2 on your Threat Range that stacked with Improved Critical.

None of that stuff existed before 3.0. Wizards got stuff, too. In 1st and 2nd edition, Concentration checks always failed, and there was no such thing as casting defensively. That basically meant that if a martial character got in close with a Magic User, it was game over. It became a lot easier to build magic items. Metamagic Rods are really cool. But Wizards and that new-fangled class Sorcerer didn't explode in potential anything like how fighters did.

You kids' fighters these days don't know how easy you got it! Why, when I was yer age...


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Scott Wilhelm wrote:

I remember it very differently.

In AD&D, every weapon was an Exotic Weapon. Combat Maneuvers pretty much didn't exist. A fighter wouldn't get2 attacks/round before level 13. Fighters had fewer hit points than Druids with the same number of experience points.

And almost every Feat that exists didn't before 3rd Edition. In 3rd Edition there was a Feat called Knockback: every time you scored more than 10 points of damage on a hit, you got a free Trip attempt, and with Improved Trip, you got a Free hit on them as they went down. In 3.5, Elusive Target gave you a Free Trip Attempt whenever someone made an Attack of Opportunity against you for moving out of a Threatened Square, followed by free Attacks with Improved Trip. That could easily mean 6 attacks/round by level 6. No 2nd edition fighter could have dreamed of anything like that.

And did you see the combination I posted above? Combat Brute, Deadly Concussion, Pushback, Shock Trooper, and Improved Trip? You could set up all that stuff before level 9, cascading attack after attack. There was never anything like that in 2nd edition.

You evidently missed the part where magic became safe, convenient and had no drawbacks like "aging you". Furthermore, in 3.0 onward, magic is blindingly quick compared to previous editions with most combat spells taking only a standard action to complete. A wizard can move and cast even high level spells every round. And with Quicken Spell, Wizards can cast two spells a round *and* move. AD&D 2nd Edition Wizards would kill for that kind of action economy.

Spell prep is also extremely fast compared to prior editions as Wizards can prepare all their spells in an hour no matter how many or what level they are. Wizards also get more spells. A lot more. It's very unlikely for a Wizard to run out of spells past level 7 and becomes virtually impossible by level 13. By level 9 a Fighter can deal some damage. By level 9 a Wizard can break reality over his knee.

And disrupting a Wizards spell has become much more difficult. Thanks to their great mobility in 3.0 and up, Wizards can often avoid having to take an AoO. And thanks to their general standard action cast time, don't often risk having a spell interrupted. And even if they do have to cast in combat they have options like cast defensively. And even if they take damage they can make a concentration check to keep right on casting rather than immediately losing the whole spell.

Shock trooper, Push back, Combat Brute? Maximum Weapon damage? These are irrelevant compared to what a Wizard can do at level 9.

At level 9 Wizards have access to:
Lesser Planar Binding - gives access to powerful long duration minions.
Contact Other Plane - lets you play 20 questions with the universe.
Magic Jar - lets you hijack bodies.
Teleport - lets you travel long distances instantly.
Overland Flight - lets you Fly literally all day.
Dominate Person lets you control a person for *days* per level.

And all that's just Core. Let's not even get into the really crazy stuff casters get at high level in Core like Astral Projection, Gate, Time Stop, and Wish.

Silver Crusade

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You're both right.

In 3.x and Pathfinder barbarians are the kings of damage, with other martial types not far behind them. In older editions, the wizard was the biggest damage dealer.

Everyone got new stuff in 3.0, more in 3.5 and more again in Pathfinder. IMHO PCs in pathfinder are more powerful than in any previous edition, and that goes across the board, whatever class you're looking at. It's not necessarily a bad thing, but there's been a gradual evolution over the years for sure.

( I should make the proviso that pathfinder has got rid of some of the most broken shenanigans from 3.x such as divine metamagic ).


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Your player is mostly just repeating things he has heard others say. A castering that focuses on someone else's job will not do his own job, and there is no justification for what he wants his barbarian to be able to do. When the party casters start to out damage him then he can complain, but only if he has a decent build, and no way to be THE damage guy. Even then the solution can be found without 3.5 solutions.

Also not everything from 3.5 goes well with Pathfinder. Some things in 3.5 are too good for 3.5. <----I would only allow certain things on case by case basis.

That barbarian will do well without the 3.5 options.


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Anzyr wrote:
You evidently missed the part where magic became safe, convenient and had no drawbacks like "aging you".

I never considered that to be a big problem. I never lost a character due to aging. And the biggest source of aging was the Haste Spell, which affected everyone the spell was cast upon, not just the caster.

Anzyr wrote:
Spell prep is also extremely fast compared to prior editions as Wizards can prepare all their spells in an hour no matter how many or what level they are.

Fair to say, that's something wizards got after 3rd edition.

Anzyr wrote:
At level 9 Wizards have access to... And all that's just Core.

No it isn't! That's my point! Most of the stuff you are talking about is 1st Edition stuff!

Anzyr wrote:

Contact Other Plane - lets you play 20 questions with the universe.

Magic Jar - lets you hijack bodies.
Teleport - lets you travel long distances instantly.

All of these spells appeared by name in the Advanced Dungeons and Dragons Player's Handbook in the 1970s, and I'm pretty sure they existed in the white box set from the 60s. I'll have to double check. The basics of these spells have not changed.

Anzyr wrote:
Lesser Planar Binding - gives access to powerful long duration minions.

I don't remember the spell available by name, but there were lots of 1st edition spells that summoned and bound outsiders for long durations. Little is new here.

Anzyr wrote:
Overland Flight - lets you Fly literally all day.

There have always been lots of ways to fly. My preferred means of flying was to cast a Polymorph Self Spell. Polymorph spells have gotten much more constrained as time has gone by.

Anzyr wrote:
Dominate Person lets you control a person for *days* per level.

Charm Person used to have a duration of days/level, and it was a level 1 spell.

Anzyr wrote:
Let's not even get into the really crazy stuff casters get at high level

No. Let's.

Anzyr wrote:
Astral Projection,

1st edition spell

Anzyr wrote:
Gate,

1st edition spell

Anzyr wrote:
Time Stop,

1st edition spell

Anzyr wrote:
and Wish.

1st edition spell

I'm not saying that Wizards aren't powerful. I'm saying they've always been powerful, but martial characters have been catching up.

Anzyr wrote:
they can make a concentration check to keep right on casting rather than immediately losing the whole spell.

I said this already. I'm also not saying that since 2nd edition, Wizards haven't been getting good stuff, just that Martial Characters have been getting more good stuff.


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As interesting as this conversation is getting (I actually enjoy finding out about past editions like you all have been discussing, game design is an interesting subject to me and seeing the process over time is fascinating), I think I've decided on the course of action.

As has been said, roles are an integral part to the game (meatshield, DPS, etc), so I'll make the following change:

Power attack will officially be reverted to PF's version, and HP will likewise be reverted. However, to try and compromise with the player, power attack is now no longer a feat that needs to be taken but a standard thing for all characters (similar to how I've allowed weapon finesse to be "standard"). Likewise, point blank shot will be given the same treatment. I do think the player will value this change, as he took a 1 level dip in fighter at level 2 specifically to get furious focus sooner, and I'll allow him to retrain that level back to bloodrager at no cost.
I will, before making this change, run through the next dungeon and make sure the bloodrager is still contributing the lion's share of the damage (after all the witch is going for a debuff-caster rather than straight damage), but still allows the magus to shine when he steps up to the plate and gets his full combo off.

Lastly, I would be ok letting him take frenzerker as written, but he has expressed distaste with certain class features other than just the potential TPK aspect.
Inspire Frenzy: hes not too keen on the whole "and now the party frenzies too", even after I said "no TPK necessary when frenzying". He suggested, with iterations on the idea provided by me, more of a X/day ability to auto-crit after landing an attack. Since we're using the 'laying waste' crit system (where critting just does maximum normal damage and adds an extra effect from a sliced cheek to lopping off an arm), I thought it would be an ok change. With the lay waste system, I believe we settled on something like +20 to the confirmation roll? I may lower it, but I'd still like thoughts on the change/ability itself.
Something something 5ft step: the cleave enhancements from frenzerker were cool in 3.5, but we noticed something in PF, namely dwarfs and dwarfs alone can take a pretty high up class feature from frenzerker as a feat at pretty low levels, the one where in the middle of a cleave you can take a 5ft step. Considering that this idea of a giant brute who just carved a bloody path through enemy after enemy was his one goal with this character (if he was more of a powergamer Im pretty sure he would take the...I think its Warhulk? Class from 3.5 that gives bonus strength every level), he felt pretty jipped. Any thoughts on this?
No Dex for you: lastly, despite it being the best backup plan to make sure a frenzerker doesnt tpk, he doesnt like that being able to balance isnt possible while frenzying. Like he understands not getting do do complex acrobatics and tumbling around the battlefield, but not being able to stand up from a grease spell made him frenzy a little irl. Again, thoughts?

Again, thank you all so much for responding to this thread. Im glad my first post got more attention than I thought it would.


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You're definitely running a heavily modified version of the game, so conventional wisdom will not necessarily apply well. I think you're on the right track in addressing the concerns you have at the table.

I scarcely remember the particulars of the Frenzied Berserker, as it's been near 10 years since I opened the book; I know I didn't want to take the PrC just because of its propensity to nuke the party. What other parts of the class is your player uneasy about?

And don't be surprised by how much response you get -- this is what we do!


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Syrus Terrigan wrote:
I scarcely remember the particulars of the Frenzied Berserker, as it's been near 10 years since I opened the book; I know I didn't want to take the PrC just because of its propensity to nuke the party. What other parts of the class is your player uneasy about?

As I mentioned above, the player has more of a "lone wolf" mental image when it comes to the Frenzied Berserker, so an ability that affects the entire party didn't sit well with him, in addition to dwarves getting one of his higher-up prestige class-specific ability as a feat at like level 5. But what irked him the most was not being able to use Dex skills while frenzied.

Like I kinda understand where the designers were coming from, where you can't focus on the intricate footwork required for some dex skills, but even in 3.5 straight up not being able to make a balance check to avoid a level 1 spell (grease) kinda sucks. Useful to avoid a TPK, but still sucks.


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Yup. Magic wins. Period.

Not being able to use Balance/Acrobatics, though, DOES NOT mean that he can't make a Dexterity check. And that's the worst-case scenario. To elaborate: grease doesn't turn off a character's Dex; nor does a frenzied state of mind (otherwise, he'd foam at the mouth from the prone position for the duration -- at least then the party wouldn't have much to worry about). It may mean that technical efforts with Dexterity don't function normally, but as a GM/DM I would say that there's a big difference between Disable Device/Open Lock/Sleight of Hand and Acrobatics/Balance. You could rule that he takes a penalty to the Balance check equal to the caster level of the spell, or something similar. If a frenzied berserker couldn't balance at all, how in thunder would he/she be able to swing those massive two-handed weapons in the first place? Logic trumps mechanics, but mechanics should inform logic.

And as for the inspire frenzy ability -- lone wolves lead by example all the time. It may be an unintended consequence; you could roleplay it that way -- besides, it *does* require willing participants. Drum up some alternate options, and we can hash through them -- you're the game operations director, so you're looking for production value, right?

Here's a quick brainstorm for an option -- turn it into an "aura" ability that deals damage to adjacent (NOT threatened) creatures equal to half the 'zerker's Strength modifier (Fort save negates). Call it "knees and elbows" or somesuch. You could scale it like this -- inspire frenzy 1/day becomes Knees and Elbows 1, and it uses half the Strength bonus for frenzy as the damage rate. K&E 2 could use half of the modifier of the *total* Str score while frenzied. K&E 3 would use total Str modifier for damage. DC based on 1/2 character level in classes with rage/frenzy powers + Str mod while active, yadda yadda yadda, . . . . blah, blah.

Maybe that could work. It's at least a starting point for hammering out something that might work, anyway.

Oh, yeah! Considering you'd be cutting the ability's influence from "whole team" to "just me", maybe it should be an "always on" ability while in a frenzy . . . .


My opinion is to never mix them,it leads to way to many problems. The systems may be run near identical. but the power change is completely different. Most 3.5 feats are actual worth 2 feat in pathfinder. this is why the cleave chain was adjust in pathfinder. There are some exceptions that where just super weak in 3.5 compared to others. Those often stayed the same in the conversion. Skill also a big change with 3.5 characters specializing in a skill is vastly more powerful then a pathfinder one. but pathfinder characters are better at cross class skills. I can go on and on about,how different they are it. They don't blend well together even thou that was the original intent of the system to blend with 3.5 with pathfinder core. Pathfinder has grown so much on it's own that it really is not compatible with out major over haul to the 3.5 add on. Hell Pathfinder almost does not mesh with it's own core anymore, hence the making of the unchained book; The need of all the FAQ, erratas and blog posting.


Didn't read whole thread.

My advice is to tell the players you've made a mistake and ask them to forgive you.

Explain you didn't understand the consequences of mixing 3.5 and Pathfinder would work out like this. Explain further that you would like to continue the campaign, but only using Pathfinder rules henceforth.

The barbarian will still do exceptional damage, but your player is probably still going to be salty about it.

There isn't much to be done without someone being upset. But if you explain that it was your mistake and apologize it might soften the blow.


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Pathfinder should not be mixed with 3.5 unless you really, really know what you're doing. Many of the gaps in 3.5 such as divine metamagic and all purpose druids have been closed.

I would advise consulting with your players and restarting the campaign with ONLY pathfinder rules. If you're really concerned, limit it to the basic books.

You can agree to let any player that wants to use XXX PrC/feats/etc use those stuff with an open caveat, that you will work with the player to balance out any problems that occur during play (aka its overpowered) or remove the PrC and let the player rebuild his character. Just remember to inform beforehand and make it fair if something gets removed

Alternatively, just roll with it and let them overrun your monsters (remember you're not really aiming for a TPK). Or dump in a lot of weaker monsters (or summoners with stuff pre summoned) and swarm which will force more resource usage. Or use harder tactics vs the party (however this may kill them if they don't know how to handle it) such as incorporeal flyby attacks from below the ground, flight based encounters, magic jar attacks etc

Regarding magic users from 1e, 2e and 3e,
In 1e magic users only became powerful once they hit level 10+. Save or dies were of no consequence because it was simply so easy to save (qv old save tables and a XXX of protection so failure was only on natural 1). Because of the way HD was handled, it was easier to simply spam damage. At lower levels, you could die easily because your AC and hp was really bad compared to monster THAC0.

20th+ level casters ruled all, not because they used save or dies but because they used magic w/o caps at range, ala 10 auto hit magic missiles per casting for 10d4+10 or the 20d6 fireballs that made meteor swarm a less than spectacular spell. You really had no chance at mid levels if a high level mage BBEG telported in.

Classes no longer had hit dice after a certain point wizards at 11, fighters at 9th, etc so they did not have sufficient hp to take large scale 20d6 hits. The 88 hp huge ancient red also was just free xp against uncapped magic as long as you avoided immunities

2e closed the magic cap problem by limiting the maximum level effect. This weakened magic users (renamed wizards or mages IIRC) a lot and save or dies still were useless (qv the same tables again plus the same XXX of protection).

Added to TWF and the player option range of grandmastery, at 7th level (you could find the slots but it was not easy), the fighter was actually the most powerful single target combatant. The main problem was WP slots (rather like the feat deficiency for fighters in 3.5) but that only delayed the ridiculous power of the fighter. A optimised TWF grandmaster fighter could take down an average (non maxed hp) great wyrm red in 1 or 2 rounds even with the changes to dragon HD from 1e, by using twin longswords 4x(d20+3+3(+3 magic weapon)+6(18/00 strength)) for 4d20+48=~90 damage/round.

Consider that the average 20 HD monster had ~90 hp and it become LOL. Of course if you had twin vorpal weapons, things normally ended even faster since you spammed for the successful roll range 4 times every round.

Compare vs the 10d6 fireball that would need a 10th level+ magic user to cast and did an average of 35 damage, wizards became the mook killer while fighters were the boss killers.

3.0 was a revolution so everything was very different. The whirlwind bag of rats fighter was invincible as long as he had rats and after that was FAQed, grabbing feats and PrCs to stack Spell DCs became the big thing as that old save table was no longer in use. Save or dies became top dog until epic spellcasting made everything LOL.

3.5 reduced that issue by halving all spell DC gains and in the cases of PrCs, changing the spell DCs to caster level increases. Save progression lag then became the main issue as spellcasters compensated by targeting weak saves. Of course stuff like divine metamagic and such were around and stuff like lion totem barbarian 1s became available. Epic spellcasting was not talked about much that edition, as it was stuffed in the secret closet and many hoped it would remain unnoticed.

An interesting point is that the very rarely referenced but common break point across all editions (though it has greater or less costs in each edition) and even pathfinder has always remained the same. Simulacrum.


The Glob wrote:
Pathfinder should not be mixed with 3.5 unless you really, really know what you're doing.

Or if you want to run a loony or munchkin campaign.


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"Loony."

"Munchkin."

"Murderhobo."

"Rollplayer."

And so on, and so forth.

And I so aver.

"Who dares, wins!" -- Australian SAS motto

"Have the strength to act, not the strength to suffer." -- paraphrased from Machiavelli

"Nothing risked, nothing gained." -- trite cliché

Mix 'em, blend 'em, break 'em -- throw in some 4th edition features while you're at it! I'm in the process of adapting the 4th edition seeker to Mathfinder rules, just to mix things up (not as a base class, mind you, but trying to tweak existing archer chassis to account for the seeker's abilities).

Gunny43 jumped into the situation, saw some trouble spots, and came here for HELP, not cataclysmic revision. Come on, folks!

Silver Crusade

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If it's help he's looking for, I don't think that the elements of 3.5 he's currently incorporating into his game should be especially problematic.

(Frenzied beserker will be and I'd encourage the original poster not to allow it--it's not a good class for the game. It gains power for the player but the primary cost (risk of killing allies) is endured by the other players. It's a bad thing for the game when you can offload the cost of your character choices onto other players. If the OP "fixes" that as has apparently been discussed, then it's all power at no cost which is not good either. Like 3.5 persistent spell, divine metamagic, and sacred geometry, it needs to be scrapped not fixed. End it don't mend it. Burn it to the ground, salt the earth it stood on, and then scatter whatever stones didn't burn all over the fields).

3.5 Power Attack on the other hand is mathematically inferior to pathfinder power attack. Pathfinder 2 handed power attack is 3 damage per -1 to hit as opposed to 3.5's 2 damage per -1 to hit. (The PF change is more about "ease of use" since it's on/off rather than pick your level than it is about balance). 3.5 Power Attack has more synergy with Furious Focus, but that will become less and less significant once the character starts getting multiple attacks through level and haste. By the time he's level 7 or so, it shouldn't make a big difference in the character's effectiveness. I'd leave that alone.

Now, as to the specific complaint that he is two shotting boss monsters. A. Regular PF barbarians and fighters will regularly two-shot boss monsters anyway. A level 4 barbarian with power attack, furious focus, and a +1 greatsword, starting 18 strength and rage will be doing 2d6 + 9 (22 str while raging) +6 power attack +1 enhancement = average 23 damage per hit. 46 hp is going to take down a lot of "boss monsters" at level 4. I think that what you're seeing is a barbarian/bloodrager problem, not a 3.pf problem.

B. No one says you have to use "boss" monsters. A group of 2nd level orc barbarians with a level 3 bard warleader (with lingering performance to make him a throwaway) is usually a stronger threat and more fun than an encounter with a level 6 orc barbarian "boss." Just because he's the boss doesn't mean he has to be a match for the party by himself. Tyrion or Tywin Lannister in Game of Thrones are both more suited to the boss role than Jaime despite Jaime being personally more dangerous.

C. 3.pf is not a one-way street. If you don't like being two-shotted, try using Mad Foam Rager (ignore one hit until after your next turn) on barbarians. That gives them an extra hit or lets them get an extra hit in. Use Inspirational Boost on the bard I outlined in B. Use Recitation in combination with fortune's favored for a +4 bonus to AC for all your bad guys who follow the cleric's religion.

There are other pitfalls to 3.pf but we're limiting this to what you're talking about here.


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Syrus Terrigan wrote:


Gunny43 jumped into the situation, saw some trouble spots, and came here for HELP, not cataclysmic revision. Come on, folks!

Mr A: I saw someone bungee jump before so i'm going to jump off a 20 storey building with a rubberband!

Mr B: You're going on a one way trip because the rubberband's maximum stress can't handle your weight and even if you change it, you have to calculate the tenstile strength and expected enlongation will not cause you to eat pavement. Then you have to consider the physical connection points of any harness will not cause you to dislocate or suffer internal bleeding at the point of rebound. You do have a harness right?

Mr C: Why are you discouraging the guy! He wants to jump off a building with a rubberband, you should encourage him!

If someone does not know the systems well enough and cannot see what changes were made for what reasons, it will only cause further trouble down the road.


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>>> Glob --

Surely you're not suggesting that we can only play games in a trouble-free environment? How many rubber bubbles does it take to play a safe game?

Build a better rubber band. Call it what you like.


Syrus Terrigan wrote:

>>> Glob --

Surely you're not suggesting that we can only play games in a trouble-free environment? How many rubber bubbles does it take to play a safe game?

Build a better rubber band. Call it what you like.

Sorry i thought the OP simply wanted to play in a "trouble-free environment". I did not notice he was trying to build a new gaming system. My bad.


My group uses the 3.5 and Pathfinder feats/books but our rule is that if a feat or class has been redone in Pathfinder then the Pathfinder version MUST be used.

This has avoided a ton of really broken combinations when using old 3.5 stuff and 3.5 Power Attack is about as broken as it comes, right up there with the Frenzied Berserker PrC.

There was a reason EVERY melee Damage build in 3.5 used those two things.

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