How many ranks or what + bonus would be 'equivilent' of a degree, masters and doctorate?


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion

Grand Lodge

I am not saying all knowledges play out as being the result of 'formal' education but I'm just working on something for back story for a campaign and it got me wondering, if my character had x ranks? Would they have their bachelors? or we base it on the overall bonus? Not everyone has 18 int (especially NPCs).

Just trying to get your feel


I remember it being said... Somewhere, that having 3 ranks in a skill is equivalent to a professional. I'm sorry I can't quote a source, but that how I've interpreted it since. Makes sense since 'typical' people only get up to about level 6 after a lifetime of dedicated work.


I wouldn't equate skill ranks to degrees, as you can only get skill ranks from levels, and levels from practical experience.

However, I'd place a Bachelor's averaging a 15 at 1st level, and a Master's averaging a 20 at 1st level. As you increase in level, you would also increase in practical knowledge, hence the extra ranks. But with degrees, I wouldn't call them experience beyond the average so much as a dedicated effort to improve oneself in that field.

In order to get a bachelor's, you need:
- 1 Rank
- +1 Int
- Class Skill Bonus
-OR-
- 1 Rank
- +1 Int
- Skill Focus

In order to get a master's, you need something like:
- 1 Rank
- +1 Int
- Class Skill Bonus
- Skill Focus
- Prodigy Feat


Well it really depends on how much schooling you have for the tile. You could go for the whole bonus. You know, now that I think about it... they would need to make a knowledge check to pass their exams... lol. So yeah you might have to go off the whole bonus because people who have more bonus would be better at passing exams.

AS for NCP titles I would go with (roughly of course) +3 is professional like Nargemn said, then go +1 for each level of title. Degree +4, Masters +5, Doctorate +6 Professorship +7. I would give NPCs their intellect Bonus also. This means an 18 intelligence (+4) Professor of history would get a +11

This Breaks the skill points per HD rule but these are special NCPs. Maybe even throw in another point for each decade spent in their research. Elven and Dwarven (other also) researchers, having long life, might be quite high in bonus department.


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D&D and its derivatives are weird about highly-skilled non-combat characters.


Given that most classes become superhuman at level 6, I say 6 ranks.

Probably also at least a 14-18 in the ability score.

Maybe with Skill Focus.

Sovereign Court RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32

I also tend to go with level 6 is the peak of normal human ability paradigm, so we can figure out that the best "normal" person has:

16 Int(13 base NPC array, +2 racial, +1 level)=+3
6 ranks
Skill Focus

For a total bonus of +15 or so.

I'd guess that just one rank is enough to consider yourself a Bachelor's level of training in something. One rank means you know enough to do the basic tasks of the skill competently. The jump to a graduate degree is probably equivalent to taking Skill Focus for it, not for gaining more ranks.

Liberty's Edge

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Total bonus is way more important than number of ranks for determining whether you have the equivalent of a degree.

Someone who's really smart can know more than many graduates with a bit of personal research, and people who are extremely smart have a much easier time doing the school-work and learning the subjects required to graduate than people who are less so.

Now, as for what bonus, average people graduate with Bachelor's degrees a fair bit of the time, and smart people (Int 12+) do so pretty universally. Most people with a modern education also count as Experts, so Class Skill bonuses can be counted in. And most people in Pathfinder who are out and about doing adult stuff are 2nd level or so.

So...0-1 Int mod + 1-2 Ranks +3 Class Skill = 4-6.

That being the case, I'd say a Bachelor's requires a +5 or so (and being trained in the skill, obviously), which is very neatly the amount required to 'Take 10' and succeed at DC 15 checks. IE: Enough that in normal circumstances you do in fact know more about this casually than most people.

Now, if we're talking a Masters Degree or PHD, that's a slightly different matter. The difference between those in practical terms varies wildly depending on field, so I'm just gonna treat them as one thing for these purposes.

So, with that in mind, I'd say a total of +10 (and thus taking 10 and getting a 20) is indisputably enough, but that'd require two ranks, an Int of 14 (or 12 and a Trait) and Skill Focus, or Int 18, 2 ranks, and a Trait, or Int 16, 3 ranks, and a Trait...and that seems...excessive.

I'd be more inclined to say a +7 or +8 would do it, though that's a bit less elegant (though I suppose a +8 and Masterwork Tools, which Grad Students generally have, does let you Take 10 and get a 20, so maybe go with that).

So...yeah, +5 for a Bachelor's, +7 to +10 for a Masters or Doctorate.

Now, some degrees would require multiple skills. I mean, a Clinical Psychology PHD involves a fair amount of Sense Motive and at least a +5 or so in Diplomacy (an Experimental Psychology degree not so much), and a medical degree involves bonuses as above in both Heal and Knowledge (Nature) plus at least a +5 in Craft (Alchemy) for medications and a +5 in Knowledge (Local). And so on and so forth.

Only in a purely academic field like History or Mathematics can you get a degree with only the one Knowledge skill.


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Deadmanwalking wrote:
Total bonus is way more important than number of ranks for determining whether you have the equivalent of a degree.

I'd approach it the other way, but we end up at the same rough numbers.

Let's start from basic world-building. Everyone we know is human, mundane and in today's high tech society, probably an Expert NPC class. (_Very_ few people have no skills beyond fighting, which describes most martial adventurer classes.) I go further and assume that most people already have the Skill Focus feat and use it to make a living.

In my "experience," degrees are awarded on the basis of skill ranks and not native talent; very few degrees, for example require a test of your skills in order to get the degree. (The UK system is an exception, but even the UK system will still grant a "degree" to almost anyone regardless of your score on the test; that's the difference between a "first class" degree and a "third class" one. But even a third is still a degree.) And in neither system is it easy (or even necessarily possible) to get a degree without some exposure to formal teaching; I can't simply say "hey, I know physics" and receive a B.S. in the subject even if I've been working in a physics lab for five years and have published papers in journals.

As the old joke has it : "Do you know what people call the person who graduated last in the class from medical school?" "Doctor."

At the same time, a person with a single skill point is usually competent to act as a professional in that area in Pathfinder.

So I end up at roughly the same equation that DMW does. A bachelor's degree is a skill rank or two. When you add to that the fact that most university graduates have a positive Int modifier and a class skill bonus as an expert (and probably Skill Focus as well), that puts them easily into the +5-+7 range for skills.

An advanced degree would, in theory, qualify people to do extremely difficult tasks, typically in the DC 20-25 range (which is the top of most mundane tasks), given all the circumstance bonuses they can muster. Again, doing the math, +3 for a class skill, +3 for Skill Focus, and +1 intelligence means you need 3 skill ranks, plus various circumstance bonuses (Aid from assistants, masterwork tools, and possibly a trait or another rank) for +15, taking 10 to make a DC 25 check.

So that would be 1-2 ranks for a bachelor's, 3-4 for an advanced degree. In fields where the difference between a master's and a doctorate is additional skill instead of just training in research techniques, I'd go with 1-2 for a bachelor's, 3 for a master's, and 4-5 for a doctorate.

And, yes, DMW is absolutely right that some degrees require multiple skills, so those skill points might be spread out across different skills.

Grand Lodge

Great stuff everyone but I like the last one best... Many thanks.

Liberty's Edge

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Orfamay Quest wrote:
I'd approach it the other way, but we end up at the same rough numbers.

Neat. Glad we reached a similar conclusion. :)

I'm now going to argue a bit with 'approaching it the other way', mostly because I'm kinda pedantic.

Orfamay Quest wrote:
Let's start from basic world-building. Everyone we know is human, mundane and in today's high tech society, probably an Expert NPC class. (_Very_ few people have no skills beyond fighting, which describes most martial adventurer classes.) I go further and assume that most people already have the Skill Focus feat and use it to make a living.

Eh. Skill Focus is certainly not uncommon among people who make a living at X, but not everyone with a degree (even an advanced one) makes a living at it. Indeed, many don't, and I certainly don't think some of the people I know with advanced degrees put Skill Focus into it (if made as Pathfinder characters). Now, other people I know absolutely did, but it's not universal IMO.

Orfamay Quest wrote:
In my "experience," degrees are awarded on the basis of skill ranks and not native talent; very few degrees, for example require a test of your skills in order to get the degree. (The UK system is an exception, but even the UK system will still grant a "degree" to almost anyone regardless of your score on the test; that's the difference between a "first class" degree and a "third class" one. But even a third is still a degree.) And in neither system is it easy (or even necessarily possible) to get a degree without some exposure to formal teaching; I can't simply say "hey, I know physics" and receive a B.S. in the subject even if I've been working in a physics lab for five years and have published papers in journals.

True, but having taken classes where I didn't even need to do more than skim the textbook since I knew the info already...someone who just 'knows Physics' won't have much trouble passing every class casually if they just do the work (and possibly learn some ancillary terminology and research methods).

The need for formal credentials is very real, but having such credentials doesn't make you more competent than someone without, IME. Which is where I was going with that.

Orfamay Quest wrote:
As the old joke has it : "Do you know what people call the person who graduated last in the class from medical school?" "Doctor."

Yep. But they need to actually pass the classes to get called that (not a given by any means) which is where the 'minimum bonus' seems relevant to me. Thinking of tests as a DC X skill check is not a bad way to look at them, and if you fail to pass the tests, well, you're not gonna pass the class either.

Orfamay Quest wrote:
At the same time, a person with a single skill point is usually competent to act as a professional in that area in Pathfinder.

Yep. Most people being 2nd-3rd level makes even a single skill point in something pretty relevant.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Anonymous Warrior wrote:

I wouldn't equate skill ranks to degrees, as you can only get skill ranks from levels, and levels from practical experience.

Keep in mind that in a lot of subjects you can't get an advanced degree without doing some amount of actual research. When I got my Master's, although there was a lot of book learning, there was also a lot of original work. I'd call that practical experience.

The Exchange

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The old D&D 'Arms and Equipment Guide' (ISBN 0-7869-2649-x if anyone cares) states (page 62) that...

'...an artisan as an apprentice until he has gained 7 ranks in his primary skill. At that point, the artisan community that he belongs to grants him the title of journeyman. When the artisan has gained 12 ranks in his primary skill, he earns the title of master. These ranks have no game play effect...'

... which could be a reasonable sort of way to look at it. I'd tend to base things like degrees and diplomas off of skill ranks, rather than total bonus (just as prerequisites for Feats and the like tend to be based off of ranks) because those sorts of formal qualifications usually require you to jump through whatever scholastic hoops first, rather than just sitting a test to see how good you actually are. Still no game play effect, of course.

For a more Paizo/Pathfinder-specific approach, I'd suggest looking at the rules for magic schools in Inner Sea Magic, or the rules for combat schools in Inner Sea Combat, with training checks, fame rewards and specific awards. It wouldn't be too hard to whip up something similar for a non-magic/combat 'scholastic' school: pass 'x' number of checks over 'y' semesters and qualify for the Bachelors Degree award (which grants some small bonus or other), etc..


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John Woodford wrote:
Anonymous Warrior wrote:

I wouldn't equate skill ranks to degrees, as you can only get skill ranks from levels, and levels from practical experience.

Keep in mind that in a lot of subjects you can't get an advanced degree without doing some amount of actual research. When I got my Master's, although there was a lot of book learning, there was also a lot of original work. I'd call that practical experience.

Yeah, when I got my master's, there was a specific requirement that the thesis had to be "original research," meaning that it couldn't be a literature survey or something like that. While I did my thesis solely with book research (because, well, my topic was firmly placed in the 18th-19th century and everyone involved is now dead), plenty of my classmates did more scientific-esque field research for their theses as well. It's very dependent on your subject area.

It also depends on the country of your school, since different countries have different requirements for degrees.

In addition to the appropriate skills, if you also do it for a living, you'd get the profession skill in it too (although not everyone works in the exact profession their degree is in, especially if it was in the humanities).

Liberty's Edge

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Meraki wrote:
John Woodford wrote:
Keep in mind that in a lot of subjects you can't get an advanced degree without doing some amount of actual research. When I got my Master's, although there was a lot of book learning, there was also a lot of original work. I'd call that practical experience.
Yeah, when I got my master's, there was a specific requirement that the thesis had to be "original research," meaning that it couldn't be a literature survey or something like that. While I did my thesis solely with book research (because, well, my topic was firmly placed in the 18th-19th century and everyone involved is now dead), plenty of my classmates did more scientific-esque field research for their theses as well. It's very dependent on your subject area.

AYKB, there's a difference between collating what other people have found on a topic and pulling stuff out of the original sources--the latter sure looks to me like practical experience in Knowledge (History).


Umbral Reaver wrote:
D&D and its derivatives are weird about highly-skilled non-combat characters.

Not surprising that at it's heart, it's a wargame with roleplaying mechanics bolted on. This question is a lot easier with story based games such as White Wolf which has actual answers to this question.


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In the UK, to be a Chartered Engineer, you need (as a minimum) a B degree and 4 years responsible experience. So from that POV, there's not a huge value placed on the degree itself. But even so, there's a huge difference between a graduate with a 2:1 (ie, average) and the amateur who can knock up something with an Arduino. So I'd put a B degree at 1 rank + Skill Focus + Int bonus as an absolute minimum for when the guy graduates. Thereafter it'll just go up from work experience, and do so quite rapidly if he has a proper job.

Advanced degrees are (IME) just work like any other. My PhD was, hour for hour, functionally little different from the 25 years of other engineering I've done: experiment, invent stuff, design stuff, write it up. The only real difference was that a research degree is very narrow in focus and is likely to be of less real-world value by its very nature (it's research into the unknown).

As DMW says, it's probably more than one skill, and some of those skills are Lore not Knowledge or Profession. God knows that nobody's going to earn money from some of the arcana that gets trotted out.

Grand Lodge

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ProfPotts wrote:

The old D&D 'Arms and Equipment Guide' (ISBN 0-7869-2649-x if anyone cares) states (page 62) that...

'...an artisan as an apprentice until he has gained 7 ranks in his primary skill. At that point, the artisan community that he belongs to grants him the title of journeyman. When the artisan has gained 12 ranks in his primary skill, he earns the title of master. These ranks have no game play effect...'

... which could be a reasonable sort of way to look at it. I'd tend to base things like degrees and diplomas off of skill ranks, rather than total bonus (just as prerequisites for Feats and the like tend to be based off of ranks) because those sorts of formal qualifications usually require you to jump through whatever scholastic hoops first, rather than just sitting a test to see how good you actually are. Still no game play effect, of course.

For a more Paizo/Pathfinder-specific approach, I'd suggest looking at the rules for magic schools in Inner Sea Magic, or the rules for combat schools in Inner Sea Combat, with training checks, fame rewards and specific awards. It wouldn't be too hard to whip up something similar for a non-magic/combat 'scholastic' school: pass 'x' number of checks over 'y' semesters and qualify for the Bachelors Degree award (which grants some small bonus or other), etc..

So an NPC would need to be level 7? Yeah - I'll let that slide. I never was a fan of high level commoners and the like.


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Helaman wrote:
ProfPotts wrote:

The old D&D 'Arms and Equipment Guide' (ISBN 0-7869-2649-x if anyone cares) states (page 62) that...

'...an artisan as an apprentice until he has gained 7 ranks in his primary skill. At that point, the artisan community that he belongs to grants him the title of journeyman. When the artisan has gained 12 ranks in his primary skill, he earns the title of master. These ranks have no game play effect...'

... which could be a reasonable sort of way to look at it. I'd tend to base things like degrees and diplomas off of skill ranks, rather than total bonus (just as prerequisites for Feats and the like tend to be based off of ranks) because those sorts of formal qualifications usually require you to jump through whatever scholastic hoops first, rather than just sitting a test to see how good you actually are. Still no game play effect, of course.

For a more Paizo/Pathfinder-specific approach, I'd suggest looking at the rules for magic schools in Inner Sea Magic, or the rules for combat schools in Inner Sea Combat, with training checks, fame rewards and specific awards. It wouldn't be too hard to whip up something similar for a non-magic/combat 'scholastic' school: pass 'x' number of checks over 'y' semesters and qualify for the Bachelors Degree award (which grants some small bonus or other), etc..

So an NPC would need to be level 7? Yeah - I'll let that slide. I never was a fan of high level commoners and the like.

It's a 3.5 source. Reduce skill ranks by 3 (3.5 is 4 ranks in a skill at 1st level, instead of 1), and you have a PF-compatible answer. So it's journeyman after level 4, master after level 9. Still north of what I'd expect a regular person to get (Medical doctors are expert 3s with Skill Focus (Heal)), but c'est la vie.


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Deadmanwalking wrote:
(though I suppose a +8 and Masterwork Tools, which Grad Students generally have, does let you Take 10 and get a 20, so maybe go with that)

Access to a university network (and libraries or databases, e.g. JSTOR archive to pick one offhand) would almost certainly count as a +2.


I dont' really believe there is much correlation between ranks and 'degrees'. I just don't think it is that kind of game.

There are way too many classes that are 'professional' type classes and archtypes that start at level 1. Everything from Expert to alchemist to archivist, not to mention anyone taking profession ranks...

These aren't still apprentices or still gaining their degrees... they're fully formed characters doing their job efficiently.

Level one characters can roll a 21 with a single rank... level 6 characters can roll a 7. There's way too much wiggle room with that D20 to justify micromanaging rank = real world...

Grand Lodge

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Agreed Phantom, it isn't really that sort of game - I just wanted to get a base line of Opinion as I was working for a backstory for a campaign and wanted a sanity check/guideline for the backstory.

However a level 1 character is unlikely to be able to lay claim to a 'professorship' with a single rank or 'research fellow' - roles that traditionally require a doctorate.

I do have one game (E6) where I allowed the player to start as a professor but its a very low level campaign and one where commoners rarely make it beyond level 3, but thats the exception rather than the rule.

Anyways thats where I am coming from.

I decided to make the character a graduate working on their masters (History of Ustalav, from restoration of crown rule to present day) given their ranks in History, Nobility and Local (which also covers laws) and their decent bonuses +8, +7, +6

Given the character is about to attend a funeral in Ravensgro I am pretty sure that while their knowledge skills will rise, they won't have time for academic accreditation once things get moving.


There needs to be a 'skilled whatever' class where it's only class ability is getting the ability to have a larger than normal bonus to a small group of skills than a normal class. 'This npc class gets an additional skill rank per level in x and can go above the level cap' or some such. Only gets one hp a level if that. No particular save progression, etc. it just makes someone have particular skills and that's all.

Grand Lodge

The expert NPC class has that ... sorta

Liberty's Edge

Alleran wrote:
Deadmanwalking wrote:
(though I suppose a +8 and Masterwork Tools, which Grad Students generally have, does let you Take 10 and get a 20, so maybe go with that)
Access to a university network (and libraries or databases, e.g. JSTOR archive to pick one offhand) would almost certainly count as a +2.

That's sorta where I was going with that, yeah. :)

RDM42 wrote:
There needs to be a 'skilled whatever' class where it's only class ability is getting the ability to have a larger than normal bonus to a small group of skills than a normal class. 'This npc class gets an additional skill rank per level in x and can go above the level cap' or some such. Only gets one hp a level if that. No particular save progression, etc. it just makes someone have particular skills and that's all.

As noted, Expert sorta does this. And the Phantom Thief Rogue Archetype and Majordomo Investigator (among others) can get disproportionate skill bonuses by 3rd or 4th level while remaining legitimately not great at combat, for more generally competent skill-users.

Really, getting skills up pretty high while being bad at combat is pretty easy. With Con 10, their HP don't even get too absurd (17-21 is a reasonable amount, really).

Actually...I'm pretty sure I can get any skill bonus that's necessary (easily up to +15 or so) in at least one skill without going higher level than that. Likely more than one skill in most cases.

Now, that doesn't mean that the link between combat prowess and skills isn't an issue, but it's possible to work around. I could pretty readily throw up a build to do something specific if someone wanted...


RDM42 wrote:
There needs to be a 'skilled whatever' class where it's only class ability is getting the ability to have a larger than normal bonus to a small group of skills than a normal class.

I don't see why this is necessary at all. A first level character is easily capable of acting as a trained professional in most instances (the math is upthread and I'm not going to repeat it), and a 5th level character is capable of performing absurdly difficult skill-based tasks. Remember that the hardest tasks are typically only DC 25 or so, which any 5th level skill-based character actually acting as a professional can easily take ten to achieve.

The only reason I can see is because someone has taken too seriously that nonsense from 3.5 posted upthread, where you need at least seven levels to be considered an apprentice carpenter. A seventh-level carpenter could build a trireme by herself.....


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Deadmanwalking wrote:
Alleran wrote:
Deadmanwalking wrote:
(though I suppose a +8 and Masterwork Tools, which Grad Students generally have, does let you Take 10 and get a 20, so maybe go with that)
Access to a university network (and libraries or databases, e.g. JSTOR archive to pick one offhand) would almost certainly count as a +2.

That's sorta where I was going with that, yeah. :)

I feel like the internet itself would probably give you a +2 at least, with university research databases giving you additional bonuses in the relevant subject areas.

Of course, the internet requires you to make a Wisdom check to determine whether your information is accurate.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

IN the real world, I'd hazard high school education on a topic at 1 rank, college as 2, a PhD as 3-4, and 5-10 years work experience as +1-2. A Master's degree is just 'work experience' codified at a college, and worth the same at most.

In the real world, someone with 6 ranks in a skill is likely among the most innately knowledgeable people on the planet in a topic. (Less relevant in the information age, but still.)

Now, MODIFIERS are just how fast you can access the knowledge, in reality, or how fast you work. Both parties can get the same thing done, one will just be faster then the other, or reveal more complete information at the drop of a hat.

===Aelryinth


I'd say there is not equivalent to degree for skill. A degree is collection of learned skills. You would have a degree in stealth but stealth could be part of degree in subterfuge which would include stealth, sleight of hand, bluff, knowledges, appraisal, intimidate, diplomacy.

I mean there that saying about getting degree in basket weaving but that's just expression. No one learns just math in getting a degree for example.


voska66 wrote:
No one learns just math in getting a degree for example.

This is simply untrue.

The idea of a "breadth requirement" in a university education is extremely recent (post 1850) and mostly confined to the United States. I could get a maths degree from Oxford today without setting foot in a classroom devoted to anything except mathematics -- and similarly for a history degree.

Especially if we were looking at an actual medieval university, you would often only be allowed to study "studia humanitas," essentially literature, history, and poetry. Only at the advanced degree level would you cover theology, medicine, or practical skills like architecture.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Pathfinder Accessories, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

I would say a degree is around a +10 bonus. You can take 10 to get most hard topics, and roll to try and get the hardest. Research at a library improves that chance.

Knowledge wrote:
Check: Answering a question within your field of study has a DC of 10 (for really easy questions), 15 (for basic questions), or 20 to 30 (for really tough questions).

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

If we're being serious, +10 would allow you to take 10 and make masterwork every time. That's the standard for craftsmen, at the least. I don't know about knowledge skills, because a Master craftsman is probably more equal to a PhD then a Bachelor's.

==Aelryinth

Liberty's Edge

TriOmegaZero wrote:

I would say a degree is around a +10 bonus. You can take 10 to get most hard topics, and roll to try and get the hardest. Research at a library improves that chance.

Knowledge wrote:
Check: Answering a question within your field of study has a DC of 10 (for really easy questions), 15 (for basic questions), or 20 to 30 (for really tough questions).

For a Professor who's actually good at their job, I'd agree with a +10. For the guy who just squeaked by with a PHD? Maybe a bit less. For some random guy who Majored in it? More like the aforementioned +5.


Aelryinth wrote:
A Master's degree is just 'work experience' codified at a college, and worth the same at most.

Depends on whether you mean a Masters, or Master of Philosophy (MPhil), particularly in the Arts. An MPhil is kind of like a smaller DPhil (PhD).

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