Sorcerer Archetype interaction


Rules Questions


Here is an example: a 20 level Celestial Razmiran priest.

His level 20 capstone says:

Quote:

Ascension (Su): At 20th level, you become infused with the power of the heavens. You gain:

Immunity to acid, cold, and petrification
Resist electricity 10
Resist fire 10
+4 racial bonus on saves against poison
Unlimited use of the Wings of Heaven ability (9th level ability)
the ability to speak with any creature that has a language (as per the tongues spell).
But his archetype says:
Quote:

...

This ability replaces the bloodline power gained at 9th level.

Does he get Unlimited use of the Wings of Heaven ability, even if he got no Wings of Heaven ability at level 9?

(There are several other Bloodlines with the same problem)


Normally, use of Wings of Heaven is limited to a certain number of uses per day. The lvl 20 Celestial bloodline power, among other things, removes that limit. So you have no limit on the number of times you can use the ability per day. That isn't the same as granting you the capacity to use the ability. Another way to look at it: there is no limit to the number of times per day you can use Power Attack. Technically, every character has an unlimited number of uses for the Power Attack feat. But you need the actual feat to have the capacity to use Power Attack. So losing the power because of an archetype renders that clause in the lvl 20 power moot; it removes the limit of an ability that you lack the capacity to use anyway.

Now, if you want to create a houserule, you might say that you gain unlimited uses of whatever power Wings of Heaven was replaced by, but, personally, I think that's stepping beyond the intent since Ascension is meant to be an ultimate expression of the Celestial bloodline; but, because of the Razmiran Priest archetype, you explored other avenues rather than your bloodline so "perfection" of your bloodline for the parts you did pursue wouldn't necessarily extend to realization of powers you've ignored in favor of alternate routes of power.


That's part of the loss of that archetype.


Kazaan wrote:
Now, if you want to create a houserule, you might say that you gain unlimited uses of whatever power Wings of Heaven was replaced by

Oh god. Unlimited Razmiran Channel? Have you no soul?


Avoron wrote:
Kazaan wrote:
Now, if you want to create a houserule, you might say that you gain unlimited uses of whatever power Wings of Heaven was replaced by
Oh god. Unlimited Razmiran Channel? Have you no soul?

Uh... it *is* unlimited. The limit is your spell slots, not the ability.


Anzyr wrote:
Avoron wrote:
Kazaan wrote:
Now, if you want to create a houserule, you might say that you gain unlimited uses of whatever power Wings of Heaven was replaced by
Oh god. Unlimited Razmiran Channel? Have you no soul?
Uh... it *is* unlimited. The limit is your spell slots, not the ability.

Precisely. The ability to use spell trigger and spell completion items without expending them is limited by the number of spell slots you have, and taking that limitation away would unwind the great, glowing coils of the universe.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

Wild Spirit wrote:
Wings of Heaven ability, even if he got no Wings of Heaven ability at level 9?

You don't get unlimited uses on an ability you don't have.


Capstones are usually designed assuming no change is made to the bloodline. With certain archetypes you change the abilities you get with the bloodline. Unless your capstone replaces or overthrows abilities, you don't actually gain the advantages of abilities you do not have.

For instance, Arcane Bloodline's Metamagic Adept states that at 20th level it is replaced by Arcane Apotheosis. If you lose Arcane Adept, but still get Arcane Apotheosis, you still get the effect of Arcane Apotheosis, even though it gives you the souped up Arcane Adept.

See in Darkness is essentially granted through the Shadow Bloodline, even though you also get darkvision through the bloodline. The See in Darkness ability overthrows the Darkvision, meaning that if you lose the Darkvision ability, but still gain the capstone, you still get See in Darkness.

Then there are instances like this, where you gain more uses of abilities (which are named or called out in the capstone), this does not grant you the ability, just more uses of it if you have it. As you are losing it, you are losing that aspect of your capstone.


Wouldn't this fall under this FAQ?

"If you have an archetype or other rules element that replaces part of a scaling class feature, or delays when you get that class feature, you do not have that class feature until you actually gain that class feature."

and

"Example: If you have a fighter archetype that replaces weapon training 1 (but not weapon training 2, 3, and 4), you don't gain the weapon training 2 ability until fighter level 9, which means you don't have the weapon training class ability at all until you reach fighter level 9."

Wouldn't that mean that at level 20, the PC would get the level 9 ability?


No. Having unlimited use of a named ability which you do not have doesn't grant the ability. The ability was removed, the capstone targets something which is not present and the spell fizzles. To use Magic terminology


Oxylepy wrote:
No. Having unlimited use of a named ability which you do not have doesn't grant the ability. The ability was removed, the capstone targets something which is not present and the spell fizzles. To use Magic terminology

How is that different than removing weapon training a one level only do gain in higher?

What's functionally different from weapon training's getting better as it levels and Wings of Heaven getting better as it levels? If you can remove weapon training 1 but get weapon training at 9th then what exactly is the difference in not gaining Wings of Heaven at 9th but at 20th then the ability would normally increase? How isn't it "an archetype or other rules element that replaces part of a scaling class feature"?

Saying it's removed is meaningless as something is removed in both cases isn't it?


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When in doubt, simply do as the wording says. Unlimited uses of an ability that you no longer have does not grant access to that ability.
It's like telling a 20th lvl fighter that all his spells are now maximized.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

DethThreat wrote:
When in doubt, simply do as the wording says. Unlimited uses of an ability that you no longer have does not grant access to that ability.

+1

graystone wrote:

Wouldn't this fall under this FAQ?

Wouldn't that mean that at level 20, the PC would get the level 9 ability?

Actually, I read that FAQ as saying you never gain the 9th level ability.


James Risner: Why wouldn't Unlimited use be part of a scaling class feature? I'm not really seeing why an ability that alters the number of times you use an ability to a totally different ability from the first.

*shrug* as it's a 20th level ability, it's not like it really affects my playing.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

Because changing an ability doesn't give you the ability. The FAQ gives examples of abilities that increase in effectiveness. The 20th level doesn't make it more effective. Armor Training 1 being lost means that the bump for Armor Training 2 is now effectively AT1.

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