Greater Invis, Full Attack, 5' Step - Perception DC?


Rules Questions

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Chess Pwn wrote:
/
Quote:


well if some one invisible attacks you, you automatically know where you are. It's your friend that has to make the DC. If the invisible guy moves His DC is 20 and if he is in combat it is -20=0.
Okay, you know which square, your right it's the friends that needs to make a check. But if they 5ft step then they are done attacking and are now moving and do a stealth check they are stealthing.

Yes if you allow stealthing and attacking in the same round.

If not it's just the 20, rather then the 20 + stealth.
Also you should consider if the defender steps into the space vacated by the invisible guy... he is right next to him. Depending on how you rule your games this could be bad for inviso.


Chess Pwn wrote:
While making you attack, aka while attacking, you cannot stealth. You definitely can stealth before and after attacking, because at those points you're not attacking.

Why would anyone assume you could stealth as part of the attack action? Why would anyone think this was possible and why would you need an exception in the text for stealth In the same place as running and charging if what you say is true?

You are choosing a very strict interpretation of the word "attacking" to mean only the specific slice of time during the players turn when they use attack or full attack action. Which could never be used to go stealthy anyway. Your interpretation makes other sentences redundant and leads to a contradiction with the rules for sniping. Do you have any other evidence to support this extremely narrow interpretation?


Ascalaphus wrote:
a creature taking a 5ft step is almost certainly not moving more than half its speed, so no fast stealth penalty.

A creature taking a 5ft step IS moving more than half of the maximum take-a-5ft-step speed. If this were not the case, it would be called the 10ft step and it would be possible to 5ft step in difficult terrain. It's moving at the top safe speed, but for only part of the round, since the full-attack takes up most of the round.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber

A creatures speed is what is listed in its stat block, not what it is able to move due to taking other actions.


Running - takes the wholly round and includes movement - yep the rules need an exception otherwise you could reasonably expect to be able to stealth.

Charging - also takes the whole round and includes movement - yep the rules need an exception otherwise you could expect to be able to stealth.

Attacking? Why would it be in that section if it didn't refer to the whole players turn.


The Sword wrote:

Running - takes the wholly round and includes movement - yep the rules need an exception otherwise you could reasonably expect to be able to stealth.

Charging - also takes the whole round and includes movement - yep the rules need an exception otherwise you could expect to be able to stealth.

Attacking? Why would it be in that section if it didn't refer to the whole players turn.

Because you can do things steathily. You can pick locks stealthily, you can channel energy stealthily. You cannot stealthily make attacks. This section is for listing times you cannot stealth.


TriOmegaZero wrote:
A creatures speed is what is listed in its stat block, not what it is able to move due to taking other actions.

Unless it is entangled, grappled, in difficult terrain, blind, hasted, in solid fog, grease, 3 ft deep in water, making a withdraw action etc.

Other than those circumstances its speed is what is in its stat block.


Chess Pwn wrote:
The Sword wrote:

Running - takes the wholly round and includes movement - yep the rules need an exception otherwise you could reasonably expect to be able to stealth.

Charging - also takes the whole round and includes movement - yep the rules need an exception otherwise you could expect to be able to stealth.

Attacking? Why would it be in that section if it didn't refer to the whole players turn.

Because you can do things steathily. You can pick locks stealthily, you can channel energy stealthily. You cannot stealthily make attacks. This section is for listing times you cannot stealth.

Correct, you cannot attack and remain stealthy - they are mutually exclusive and require a specific set of circumstances and a hefty penalty to even attempt (called sniping)

You are arguing that you can attack and remain stealthy (despite being explicitly told you can't) by moving 5ft.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber
The Sword wrote:
Other than those circumstances its speed is what is in its stat block.

Those are modifiers to the stat block.


Massively off topic but being in difficult terrain is not a modifier to a stat block, neither is being entangled or blinded, or standing in water, or climbing, or using acrobatics, or any number of actions that require variable proportions of your speed.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber

The point being that a 5ft step is not more than half your speed just because you took a full attack action.


The Sword wrote:
Chess Pwn wrote:
The Sword wrote:

Running - takes the wholly round and includes movement - yep the rules need an exception otherwise you could reasonably expect to be able to stealth.

Charging - also takes the whole round and includes movement - yep the rules need an exception otherwise you could expect to be able to stealth.

Attacking? Why would it be in that section if it didn't refer to the whole players turn.

Because you can do things steathily. You can pick locks stealthily, you can channel energy stealthily. You cannot stealthily make attacks. This section is for listing times you cannot stealth.

Correct, you cannot attack and remain stealthy - they are mutually exclusive and require a specific set of circumstances and a hefty penalty to even attempt (called sniping)

You are arguing that you can attack and remain stealthy (despite being explicitly told you can't) by moving 5ft.

No I'm saying you can attack and then re-stealth when you move after attacking.


That is what sniping is for, and you can only do it when more than 10 ft away and in some sort of concealment or cover. All invisibility does is give you that concealment irrespective of terrain and a bonus to the skill check. Invisibility does not let you ignore the rules for stealth. It does not let you snipe in melee.

Unless you can provide any further evidence to support you assertion that contrary to the rules for sniping you can attack and become stealthy.


The Sword wrote:

That is what sniping is for, and you can only do it when more than 10 ft away and in some sort of concealment or cover. All invisibility does is give you that concealment irrespective of terrain and a bonus to the skill check. Invisibility does not let you ignore the rules for stealth. It does not let you snipe in melee.

Unless you can provide any further evidence to support you assertion that contrary to the rules for sniping you can attack and become stealthy.

No, sniping is for them to not know where you were when you made the attack. It effectively lets you stealth WHILE attacking. That isn't the case for the melee. The melee is making an attack that they know where it came from and then they are stealthing away. attacking and making a 5ft step is just like attacking and then using a move action to move. Both you're moving after attacking, so you're no longer attacking, and both you're moving which lets you make a stealth check.


Now I'm slightly confused -

Greater Invis
I sneak (stealth) up to a target and wait for my next turn.
Next turn I use my standard action and make a melee attack.
Move action I try and move away stealthily.
Can I make a STEALTH check with that move action?

I originally thought I could but due to some of the posts on this thread I'm now confused. This is due to the sniping rules & the It's impossible to use Stealth while attacking, running, or charging rule for stealth.

Used to think you could do a standard attack and then move away stealth while under Greater Invis. Now, I'm thinking that's illegal and can really mess up the Ninja's Vanish Trick.


The move action for sniping comes after the ranged attack, so according to you and all the others it is NOT happening while attacking, because according to above attacking only takes he duration of your standard action.

If you re-read your post you will see that you are actually saying the same thing.

I ask again why does the sniper not just avoid all the penalties and just move a 5 ft step his/her cover? There is no benefit to sniping that couldn't be achieved with a 5 fit step or move. In fact you don't need to move in order to stay stealthy you can just expend the action.

There is nothing in the rules for sniping that I can see that means when you snipe the target doesn't know where the attack came from. Unless of course you kill the target. Sniping just lets you remain hidden afterwards and requires enemies actively look for you.


Matt2VK wrote:

Now I'm slightly confused -

Greater Invis
I sneak (stealth) up to a target and wait for my next turn.
Next turn I use my standard action and make a melee attack.
Move action I try and move away stealthily.
Can I make a STEALTH check with that move action?

I originally thought I could but due to some of the posts on this thread I'm now confused. This is due to the sniping rules & the It's impossible to use Stealth while attacking, running, or charging rule for stealth.

Used to think you could do a standard attack and then move away stealth while under Greater Invis. Now, I'm thinking that's illegal and can really mess up the Ninja's Vanish Trick.

You still become invisible - with the range of benefits that provides. You just can't instantly go stealth > attack > stealth. You need to really become stealthy (read effectively undetectable) on your next round.

The Exchange

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While I see where Akkurscid is coming from, I disagree with that interpretation of how 'full-round actions' work for a couple of reasons:

1. Too much book-keeping. If I need to not only know what each character is doing, but also what they did in their last turn, it's going to be a headache for me. If a basic PC group is around 6 characters (say, maybe, 4 PCs + a familiar + an animal companion, or something) and they face a group of 'thug' level enemies, 2 per PC, we're already up to 14 characters where I potentially need to record what they did last turn as well as everything else going on.

2. It quickly gets into weird and overly complex territory. For example:

Bob is caught in a net. Bob's turn in initiative comes up. There are no enemies threatening Bob. Bob takes a full-round action to free himself from the net. Bob had penalties for being in a net, now he doesn't. So far, so good.

In a standard interpretation of the rules (i.e. actions finish when they are resolved) we just move on.

In Akkurscid's interpretation of the rules (you're still counted as performing the action, even after it's resolved, until your next turn) we hit a snag. Freeing yourself from a net as a full-round action provokes an AoO from anyone who threatens you. Note that it's not 'being in a net' or 'being out of a net' or 'having once been in, but are now out of a net' that provokes, but the 'freeing yourself from a net' full-round action. That means that every bad guy on the map can, after Bob's turn, but before Bob's next turn, walk over and AoO Bob, because until his next turn he's still counted as taking the 'freeing yourself from a net' full-round action, even if he's no longer taking the penalty for being in a net.

It gets more complex if you start to think about full-round movement. Movement provokes if you leave a threatened space. Under a standard interpretation of the rules that all happens in a linear fashion, but under Akkurscid's interpretation you're still counted as taking that full-round movement action until your next round... so you provoke if anyone moves to threaten any space you moved out of in your last turn... and they may also provoke by their movement too... it quickly spirals into nonsense.

So from the KISS (Keep It Simple, Stupid) school of thought actions are over once they are resolved, even if this moves the game away from being a realistic simulation, because it helps make the game playable.

The issue is only really here because the game evolved, and didn't jump into existence whole-cloth. At one point there were only Standard and Move actions, hence the name 'Full-Round Action' was used when they wanted something else that expended both actions. Later on other actions (Swift, Immediate, etc.) were added to develop the game, but no-one thought it'd be a good idea to rename what had been established as being a 'Full-Round Action'.

Put another way, when it talks about effort, it means your Standard plus your Move Actions, as other actions (Swift, Free, et al) aren't considered any significant 'effort'.

I hope that makes some sense?


ProfPotts wrote:

While I see where Akkurscid is coming from, I disagree with that interpretation of how 'full-round actions' work for a couple of reasons:

1. Too much book-keeping. If I need to not only know what each character is doing, but also what they did in their last turn, it's going to be a headache for me. If a basic PC group is around 6 characters (say, maybe, 4 PCs + a familiar + an animal companion, or something) and they face a group of 'thug' level enemies, 2 per PC, we're already up to 14 characters where I potentially need to record what they did last turn as well as everything else going on.

2. It quickly gets into weird and overly complex territory. For example:

Bob is caught in a net. Bob's turn in initiative comes up. There are no enemies threatening Bob. Bob takes a full-round action to free himself from the net. Bob had penalties for being in a net, now he doesn't. So far, so good.

In a standard interpretation of the rules (i.e. actions finish when they are resolved) we just move on.

In Akkurscid's interpretation of the rules (you're still counted as performing the action, even after it's resolved, until your next turn) we hit a snag. Freeing yourself from a net as a full-round action provokes an AoO from anyone who threatens you. Note that it's not 'being in a net' or 'being out of a net' or 'having once been in, but are now out of a net' that provokes, but the 'freeing yourself from a net' full-round action. That means that every bad guy on the map can, after Bob's turn, but before Bob's next turn, walk over and AoO Bob, because until his next turn he's still counted as taking the 'freeing yourself from a net' full-round action, even if he's no longer taking the penalty for being in a net.

It gets more complex if you start to think about full-round movement. Movement provokes if you leave a threatened space. Under a standard interpretation of the rules that all happens in a linear fashion, but under Akkurscid's interpretation you're still counted as taking that full-round movement...

Disagree... you are changing how AoO works to suit your needs...

Maybe you didn't notice the other guys example of Brace vs Charge, that one was disproved just as easily as this one. AoO is provoked by an action that in an area that you already threaten. Its "conditional" it does not provoke the area that you do not threaten.

Want an existing example?

When a caster casts a one round spell... a full round action... that anyone can walk up to and disrupt... like your net trapped guy... using your interpretation of my interpretation... would also provoke AoO from those disrupters. This is clearly not the case.

There you go a full round action... being done for the whole round... having people able to waltz up interact with disrupt etc.. and not provoke AoO. Even though it works exactly like your net example.

Once again I didn't have to change how the rules work or are written, to show an example of why your interpretation is incorrect.


Akkurscid wrote:
Quote:

Snowlilly wrote:

Please give me your definition of the word AFTER. It is used repeatedly in the RAW specifically in conjunction with 5' steps.

I suspect your definition of the word may be very different from the standard.

After means after but if you want an example:

You are driving in an area where U-turns are illegal. You are at a red light. The drivers manual says "You may proceed when the light turns green." After the Light turns Green... You are still not allowed to make a U-turn.

=)

Cheers!!

Demonstrably not how 5' steps work in Pathfinder.

Movement in Combat wrote:
If you do something that requires a full round, you can only take a 5-foot step.

Raw stating a 5' step is permitted in conjunction with a full round action.

Take 5' Step wrote:
You can take a 5-foot step before, during, or after your other actions in the round.

Raw stating when in the turn a 5' may be taken. AFTER is an explicitly permitted option.

RAW explicitly permits a 5' step to be taken as a miscellaneous action after a full round action.

Or, to use your example: You are allowed to take a 5' during a full round action.... You are still allowed to take a 5' step after taking a full round action.


Snowlilly wrote:
Akkurscid wrote:
Quote:

Snowlilly wrote:

Please give me your definition of the word AFTER. It is used repeatedly in the RAW specifically in conjunction with 5' steps.

I suspect your definition of the word may be very different from the standard.

After means after but if you want an example:

You are driving in an area where U-turns are illegal. You are at a red light. The drivers manual says "You may proceed when the light turns green." After the Light turns Green... You are still not allowed to make a U-turn.

=)

Cheers!!

Demonstrably not how 5' steps work in Pathfinder.

Movement in Combat wrote:
If you do something that requires a full round, you can only take a 5-foot step.

Raw stating a 5' step is permitted in conjunction with a full round action.

Take 5' Step wrote:
You can take a 5-foot step before, during, or after your other actions in the round.

Raw stating when in the turn a 5' may be taken. AFTER is an explicitly permitted option.

RAW explicitly permits a 5' step to be taken as a miscellaneous action after a full round action.

Or, to use your example: You are allowed to take a 5' during a full round action.... You are still allowed to take a 5' step after taking a full round action.

I think you are missing the point somewhat. Everyone agrees with you that you get a 5' step during your turn. You don't need to prove this.

What you need to prove is either Full Rounds Actions don't last for the full round or you can stealth while attacking. (sniping is the only exception) "Attacking" is what is forbidding you from applying stealth, not the lack of movement.

If you were to say you use your full round action to peel an extra large potato you can take a five foot movement and apply stealth and even though it's not your turn, continue for the 6 seconds needed to peel that potato. On the other hand, if you were to stab the chef repeatedly as a full round action you are forbidden stealth and just because you back up 5 feet you won't be allowed to engage stealth until the following round.

Two examples of full round actions both involve a knife one forbids stealth under pathfinder rules, the other doesn't. Maybe someone could say you are "attacking" the potato, but if that were the case stealth during cooking would also be banned


Been looking at the rules for 5' step and here's what I'm seeing -

Full Attack...5-foot step before, during, or after the action

My interpretation is that by action, it does NOT mean the full attack is over. Just the attack rolls made by you are over. That is the "after the action" which is meant.

There can be lots of different actions happening during that full attack action.


Matt2VK wrote:

Been looking at the rules for 5' step and here's what I'm seeing -

Full Attack...5-foot step before, during, or after the action

My interpretation is that by action, it does NOT mean the full attack is over. Just the attack rolls made by you are over. That is the "after the action" which is meant.

There can be lots of different actions happening during that full attack action.

Yep this is exactly right. Some people are interpreting "dice rolling" as the only possible definition of attacking. They are not exactly the same thing.


Akkurscid wrote:
Matt2VK wrote:

Been looking at the rules for 5' step and here's what I'm seeing -

Full Attack...5-foot step before, during, or after the action

My interpretation is that by action, it does NOT mean the full attack is over. Just the attack rolls made by you are over. That is the "after the action" which is meant.

There can be lots of different actions happening during that full attack action.

Yep this is exactly right. Some people are interpreting "dice rolling" as the only possible definition of attacking. They are not exactly the same thing.

There are other actions that can be performed that are demonstrably "not attacking" while making a full attack action. One of them is a 5' step.


Quintain wrote:
There are other actions that can be performed that are demonstrably "not attacking" while making a full attack action. One of them is a 5' step.

You are not showing how it is taking place outside of the attack action. The full attack action lasts for a whole round, it continues on after the end of your turn to the beginning of the next. The rules say this explicitly. No, pointing at the placement of the word "after" won't do it. You don't have to show why the rules are wrong... you have to show where in the rules full round actions end before the end of your turn but not before your 5 foot step. I can assure you they don't exist because the developers "Intended" it to be that way.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber

Because while the full attack full round action continues, you're no longer making attacks at that point.


TriOmegaZero wrote:
Because while the full attack full round action continues, you're no longer making attacks at that point.

What page do you find this on?

And link the part about you are free to use stealth now also.

Grand Lodge

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Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber
Akkurscid wrote:

What page do you find this on?

And link the part about you are free to use stealth now also.

Very well.

Stealth wrote:
Action: Usually none. Normally, you make a Stealth check as part of movement, so it doesn't take a separate action. However, using Stealth immediately after a ranged attack (see Sniping, above) is a move action.

Here we see that Stealth is normally not an action, and that the exception is when sniping. Melee attacks do not require a move action to Stealth after.

Action Types wrote:
Full-Round Action: A full-round action consumes all your effort during a round. The only movement you can take during a full-round action is a 5-foot step before, during, or after the action. You can also perform free actions and swift actions (see below). See Table: Actions in Combat for a list of full-round actions.

The Full-Round Action text specifies that a 5-foot step is movement. This means you can Stealth on a 5-foot step.

Full-Round Actions wrote:

Full Attack

If you get more than one attack per round because your base attack bonus is high enough (see Base Attack Bonus in Classes), because you fight with two weapons or a double weapon, or for some special reason, you must use a full-round action to get your additional attacks.

The Full Attack action says to get your extra attacks, you must take a full-round action to get your additional attacks. It does NOT say that the Full Attack action IS an attack. Therefore, despite the Full Attack action taking your entire round and consuming all your effort during a round, you are NOT attacking the entire round and can use Stealth on the 5-foot step after completing your attacks granted by your Full Attack action.

Naturally, you can only do this with something providing you the cover/concealment to make a Stealth check, so you certainly cannot just do this in the middle of a melee without Greater Invisibility.

The Concordance

@Akkurscid You continue to use the "1 round" casting time as a justification for why we would be considered attacking when it isn't our turns.

Spells that are cast as a "full round action" are different. The rules even expressly state that you AREN'T casting after the action. Ergo, you aren't still attacking after an action either.

Casting a Metamagic Spell wrote:
Sorcerers and bards must take more time to cast a metamagic spell (one enhanced by a metamagic feat) than a regular spell. If a spell's normal casting time is 1 standard action, casting a metamagic version of the spell is a full-round action for a sorcerer or bard (except for spells modified by the Quicken Spell feat, which take 1 swift action to cast). Note that this isn't the same as a spell with a 1-round casting time. Spells that take a full-round action to cast take effect in the same round that you begin casting, and you are not required to continue the invocations, gestures, and concentration until your next turn. For spells with a longer casting time, it takes an extra full-round action to cast the metamagic spell.

Bolded for emphasis. This specific example shows that full round actions DO NOT carry over into the round unless explicitly specificied, such as the Charge AC penalty which is explicitly written.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber

See also the TWF penalties, which go away as soon as you make all your attacks for the turn.


ShieldLawrence wrote:

@Akkurscid You continue to use the "1 round" casting time as a justification for why we would be considered attacking when it isn't our turns.

Spells that are cast as a "full round action" are different. The rules even expressly state that you AREN'T casting after the action. Ergo, you aren't still attacking after an action either.

Casting a Metamagic Spell wrote:
Sorcerers and bards must take more time to cast a metamagic spell (one enhanced by a metamagic feat) than a regular spell. If a spell's normal casting time is 1 standard action, casting a metamagic version of the spell is a full-round action for a sorcerer or bard (except for spells modified by the Quicken Spell feat, which take 1 swift action to cast). Note that this isn't the same as a spell with a 1-round casting time. Spells that take a full-round action to cast take effect in the same round that you begin casting, and you are not required to continue the invocations, gestures, and concentration until your next turn. For spells with a longer casting time, it takes an extra full-round action to cast the metamagic spell.
Bolded for emphasis. This specific example shows that full round actions DO NOT carry over into the round unless explicitly specificied, such as the Charge AC penalty which is explicitly written.

Well when I gave the spell example I was replying to ProfPotts example, involving AoOs and how my interpretation makes characters susceptible to them for a whole round, which it doesn't.

And yes, you gave good information. It says you do not have to continue the gestures into the next round. That's relevant evidence, and it is an explicit exception to the rule. (like sniping) The problem is you can't find a similar version that says you are able to reenter stealth during an attack action, or you are no longer denied stealth because of "some reason."

The Concordance

Akkurscid wrote:
ShieldLawrence wrote:

@Akkurscid You continue to use the "1 round" casting time as a justification for why we would be considered attacking when it isn't our turns.

Spells that are cast as a "full round action" are different. The rules even expressly state that you AREN'T casting after the action. Ergo, you aren't still attacking after an action either.

Casting a Metamagic Spell wrote:
Sorcerers and bards must take more time to cast a metamagic spell (one enhanced by a metamagic feat) than a regular spell. If a spell's normal casting time is 1 standard action, casting a metamagic version of the spell is a full-round action for a sorcerer or bard (except for spells modified by the Quicken Spell feat, which take 1 swift action to cast). Note that this isn't the same as a spell with a 1-round casting time. Spells that take a full-round action to cast take effect in the same round that you begin casting, and you are not required to continue the invocations, gestures, and concentration until your next turn. For spells with a longer casting time, it takes an extra full-round action to cast the metamagic spell.
Bolded for emphasis. This specific example shows that full round actions DO NOT carry over into the round unless explicitly specificied, such as the Charge AC penalty which is explicitly written.

Well when I gave the spell example I was replying to ProfPotts example, involving AoOs and how my interpretation makes characters susceptible to them for a whole round, which it doesn't.

And yes, you gave good information. It says you do not have to continue the gestures into the next round. That's relevant evidence, and it is an explicit exception to the rule. (like sniping) The problem is you can't find a similar version that says you are able to reenter stealth during an attack action, or you are no longer denied stealth because of "some reason."

Its not an explicit exception to anything. Exceptions are often presented as such, listing what happens normally such as the "Normal:" line in many feats. This is textual evidence of how the rules are meant to be interpreted.

You're constructing an interpretation of the rules counter to how the game is meant to be played.

The entire argument hinges on one single line in the description of full round actions.(A full round action requires an entire round to complete.)

We've provided more than a few lines that evidence that this is not how the rules are meant to operate. (TWF penalties, full round cast times, etc.) The single line you've hinged upon conflate and complicate the rules.

Cheers.

Dark Archive

Question....are we arguing about "SEEING" the invisible attacker or "HEARING" the invisible attacker. With all this talk involving the sniping rules and other things I been getting confused if we are still addressing the original question....


Quote:
Stealth wrote:
Action: Usually none. Normally, you make a Stealth check as part of movement, so it doesn't take a separate action. However, using Stealth immediately after a ranged attack (see Sniping, above) is a move action.
Here we see that Stealth is normally not an action, and that the exception is when sniping. Melee attacks do not require a move action to Stealth after.

Sure but is made inconsequential by this line...It's impossible to use Stealth while attacking, running, or charging.

Quote:
Action Types wrote:
Full-Round Action: A full-round action consumes all your effort during a round. The only movement you can take during a full-round action is a 5-foot step before, during, or after the action. You can also perform free actions and swift actions (see below). See Table: Actions in Combat for a list of full-round actions.
The Full-Round Action text specifies that a 5-foot step is movement. This means you can Stealth on a 5-foot step.

Yes I agree except ...It's impossible to use Stealth while attacking, running, or charging.

Quote:
Full-Round Actions wrote:

Full Attack

If you get more than one attack per round because your base attack bonus is high enough (see Base Attack Bonus in Classes), because you fight with two weapons or a double weapon, or for some special reason, you must use a full-round action to get your additional attacks.

The Full Attack action says to get your extra attacks, you must take a full-round action to get your additional attacks. It does NOT say that the Full Attack action IS an attack. Therefore, despite the Full Attack action taking your entire round and consuming all your effort during a round, you are NOT attacking the entire round and can use Stealth on the 5-foot step after completing your attacks granted by your Full Attack action.

This is good except:

Quote:

Full-Round Actions

A full-round action requires an entire round to complete.

You are saying this line has no value.

If you want to be specific with terminology we should add.

Attack Action: wrote:
An attack action is a type of standard action. Some combat options can modify only this specific sort of action. When taking an attack action, you can apply all appropriate options that modify an attack action. Thus, you can apply both Greater Weapon of the Chosen and Vital Strike to the same attack, as both modify your attack action. You can apply these to any combat option that takes the place of a melee attack made using an attack action (such as the trip combat maneuver), though options that increase damage don't cause attacks to deal damage if they wouldn't otherwise do so (such as Vital Strike and trip). You can't combine options that modify attack actions with standard actions that aren't attack actions, such as Cleave. Source: PPC:MTT

The attack action is a standard action. I would like to point out there are lots of stuff you can do, it also says there things you can't do. This is an example of a thing where you can't stealth during.

Melee Attack: wrote:
While a melee attack isn't an action type itself, many options and other rules affect melee attacks. Some combat options (such as the disarm and sunder combat maneuvers) can be used anytime you make a melee attack, including attacks of opportunity. These options can't be combined with each other (a single melee attack can be a disarm or sunder combat maneuver, but not both), but they can be combined with options that modify an attack action or are standard or full-round actions. Some options that take or modify melee attacks have limitations—for example, Stunning Fist can be used only once per round. Source: PPC:MTT

This one is pretty cool... Melee Attack is not an action. And they can be apart of full-round actions. Therefore you can not take a full round action to use for full attack and say my actions are done because my melee attacks are done... they themselves are not actions.

I am afraid you still can't get out of the "entire round" requirement just because your melee attacks are done. Plus to say Full Attack is not an attack is plain wrong. It's actually is the "Action you take" to get all your melee attacks in.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber

And as I showed, a Full Attack action is not actually an attack, so you are not attacking the entire time. So you can use Stealth despite the Full Attack action lasting all round.


DmRrostarr wrote:
Question....are we arguing about "SEEING" the invisible attacker or "HEARING" the invisible attacker. With all this talk involving the sniping rules and other things I been getting confused if we are still addressing the original question....

I think the original question was answered awhile ago, This thread got side tracked when a point came up about Full-Attack and then entering Stealth during 5 foot step. It's now just a few of us having fun rules lawyering.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber

Yeah, I don't think hearing can pinpoint an invisible creature unfortunately. But that's more GM determination than rules text.


TriOmegaZero wrote:
And as I showed, a Full Attack action is not actually an attack, so you are not attacking the entire time. So you can use Stealth despite the Full Attack action lasting all round.

We just agree to disagree then. Full Attack has the word attack right it. It is also the action you select when you want to do more than one melee attack. Saying what you are saying is like when Bill Clinton said "It depends on what meaning of the word IS... is"


TriOmegaZero wrote:
Yeah, I don't think hearing can pinpoint an invisible creature unfortunately. But that's more GM determination than rules text.

Agree =)


Akkurscid wrote:
TriOmegaZero wrote:
And as I showed, a Full Attack action is not actually an attack, so you are not attacking the entire time. So you can use Stealth despite the Full Attack action lasting all round.
We just agree to disagree then. Full Attack has the word attack right it. It is also the action you select when you want to do more than one melee attack. Saying what you are saying is like when Bill Clinton said "It depends on what meaning of the word IS... is"

I think it's only doing it cause he feels it's as silly an argument as yours that you're attacking even when not attacking.


Akkurscid wrote:


This is good except:
Quote:
Full-Round Actions
A full-round action requires an entire round to complete.
Movement in Combat wrote:
If you do something that requires a full round, you can only take a 5-foot step.
Take 5' Step wrote:
You can take a 5-foot step before, during, or after your other actions in the round.

The rules for taking a 5' step in conjunction with a full round action involve more than just a single sentence taken out of context.


Actually, stealth while being invisible is probably the main issue with the rule lawyering thats been going on.

Think that till we get a official FAQ people are going to have to agree to disagree.


So the point of sniping is to avoid being pin pointed, so let's say joe sniper snipes makes his -20 stealth check, all is right in the world the enemy doesn't know where he is.
Now Joe does a full attack then hides after using a five foot step, the enemy still knows where he shot from and can move towards him because his location is known even if they can't see him because he is stealthed.

Quote:

Action

Usually none. Normally, you make a Stealth check as part of movement, so it doesn't take a separate action. However, using Stealth immediately after a ranged attack (see Sniping, above) is a move action.

Now from this stealth does not require an action, it is normaly taken as part of a move action because....

Quote:
When you start your turn using Stealth, you can leave cover or concealment and remain unobserved as long as you succeed at a Stealth check and end your turn in cover or concealment. Your Stealth immediately ends after you make an attack roll, whether or not the attack is successful (except when sniping as noted below).

You begin and end in concealment.

This entire discussion is rendered moot by greater invisibility.
Quote:
Of course, the subject is not magically silenced, and certain other conditions can render the recipient detectable (such as swimming in water or stepping in a puddle). If a check is required, a stationary invisible creature has a +40 bonus on its Stealth checks. This bonus is reduced to +20 if the creature is moving.

As we see here you can not be seen, if you can not be seen the opponent needs to make a check to perceive you after you change squares with the five foot step, the check would be 20 from invisible + stealth score vrs perception. This is also part of being invisible this is not mundane hiding which also could not be done well being observed without special abilities.

Now with Scent you have an easy answer to this issue.

Quote:
When the creature is within 5 feet of the source, it pinpoints the source’s location.

You can pin point him by five foot stepping into the square he just attacked you from.


Chess Pwn wrote:
Akkurscid wrote:
TriOmegaZero wrote:
And as I showed, a Full Attack action is not actually an attack, so you are not attacking the entire time. So you can use Stealth despite the Full Attack action lasting all round.
We just agree to disagree then. Full Attack has the word attack right it. It is also the action you select when you want to do more than one melee attack. Saying what you are saying is like when Bill Clinton said "It depends on what meaning of the word IS... is"
I think it's only doing it cause he feels it's as silly an argument as yours that you're attacking even when not attacking.

I think you might not understand my argument, I understand both of your's.

The reason I don't agree with you is both of yours violate one of the two rules I keep repeating under my interpretation. Also both of your interpretations are saying only melee attacks (which are not actions) and/or ranged attacks count as attacking. Which is very narrow and unsupported by the rules book as a whole.

Liberty's Edge

This argument really does seem to be going around in circles, so I'm expecting this to not change much, but I really cannot see where Matt and Akkurscid are coming from here. I understand that you're saying a Full Attack action takes an entire round from your initiative till you're back to your initiative, and that you count the Full Attack action as attacking the whole time, and so at any point in the Full Attack action you cannot stealth, as you are always attacking.

But how can that be true? If I can full-attack, stab someone 4 times in the back, and then use my swift-action to cast a Cure Serious Wounds spell, then it's obvious that I'm not attacking the whole round, as during the 6-second round I both attacked and cast a healing spell. If I then chose to 5-foot step away, then I obviously am not currently attacking at the time - as I've just cast a healing spell, which is not attacking - and so the quote ...It's impossible to use Stealth while attacking, running, or charging is not applicable - I am not running, charging or attacking at this point, as I've cast a spell immediately before this. No-one would try to argue that if I used a standard action to cast CSW and then a move-action to get concealment that I'm counted as attacking and thus couldn't make a Stealth check, so why am I counted as attacking when I've just cast CSW in this context? A swift action change from a standard action doesn't change whether it counts as attacking or not.

It's demonstrably incorrect that a full-round action requires an entire round to be completed, as I can charge and cast a fireball in the same round - as we all know that a fireball requires part of a round, the only conclusion is that a full-round action does not actually take the entire round, and is simply misleading terminology.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber
Akkurscid wrote:
The reason I don't agree with you is both of yours violate one of the two rules I keep repeating under my interpretation.

It's really just a disagreement about which rule is more specific then.

Amusingly, things were specifically changed from 3.5 where you COULD hide while attacking.

Hide wrote:
It’s practically impossible (-20 penalty) to hide while attacking, running or charging.


Arcaian wrote:

This argument really does seem to be going around in circles, so I'm expecting this to not change much, but I really cannot see where Matt and Akkurscid are coming from here. I understand that you're saying a Full Attack action takes an entire round from your initiative till you're back to your initiative, and that you count the Full Attack action as attacking the whole time, and so at any point in the Full Attack action you cannot stealth, as you are always attacking.

But how can that be true? If I can full-attack, stab someone 4 times in the back, and then use my swift-action to cast a Cure Serious Wounds spell, then it's obvious that I'm not attacking the whole round, as during the 6-second round I both attacked and cast a healing spell. If I then chose to 5-foot step away, then I obviously am not currently attacking at the time - as I've just cast a healing spell, which is not attacking - and so the quote ...It's impossible to use Stealth while attacking, running, or charging is not applicable - I am not running, charging or attacking at this point, as I've cast a spell immediately before this. No-one would try to argue that if I used a standard action to cast CSW and then a move-action to get concealment that I'm counted as attacking and thus couldn't make a Stealth check, so why am I counted as attacking when I've just cast CSW in this context? A swift action change from a standard action doesn't change whether it counts as attacking or not.

It's demonstrably incorrect that a full-round action requires an entire round to be completed, as I can charge and cast a fireball in the same round - as we all know that a fireball requires part of a round, the only conclusion is that a full-round action does not actually take the entire round, and is simply misleading terminology.

"But how can that be true? If I can full-attack, stab someone 4 times in the back, and then use my swift-action to cast a Cure Serious Wounds spell,"

Swift-action to cast a Cure Serious Wounds spell is not specifically forbidden action when attacking. Stealth is specifically forbidden.

"I am not running, charging or attacking at this point"
but you are in a full attack action. Again narrow view of "attacking"

'It's demonstrably incorrect that a full-round action requires an entire round to be completed"
Lol... A full-round action requires an entire round to complete

"I can charge and cast a fireball in the same round"
Charge...
...a special kind of full round action.
Edit: Can you link this I don't see it.

See...? We just have to disagree. =)


TriOmegaZero wrote:
Akkurscid wrote:
The reason I don't agree with you is both of yours violate one of the two rules I keep repeating under my interpretation.

It's really just a disagreement about which rule is more specific then.

Amusingly, things were specifically changed from 3.5 where you COULD hide while attacking.

Hide wrote:
It’s practically impossible (-20 penalty) to hide while attacking, running or charging.

Yeah I started with 1st edition AD&D it was so much fun back in the day. Much less rules lol

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber

I've only ever been a 3.5 guy myself. :)


Snowlilly wrote:
Akkurscid wrote:


This is good except:
Quote:
Full-Round Actions
A full-round action requires an entire round to complete.
Movement in Combat wrote:
If you do something that requires a full round, you can only take a 5-foot step.
Take 5' Step wrote:
You can take a 5-foot step before, during, or after your other actions in the round.
The rules for taking a 5' step in conjunction with a full round action involve more than just a single sentence taken out of context.

Yes you can take a 5'step in full attack you could swift action something, definitely free action something as well. Just Stealth can't be one of those things... because full attack + no stealth during attack = no stealth during attack for an entire round.

I understand what you are saying I just disagree they can happen on the same round. (Full Attack + Stealth)

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