Is the Unhindered Shield feat Too Good? (Armor Master's Handbook)


Pathfinder Player Companion

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Sundakan wrote:
Lemmy wrote:
Sundakan wrote:

Well, even at double digits your Fighter's Will is going to suck. +6 by level 20?

There are other ways to raise it, but +2 for a Feat is pretty solid.

More like +11. Cloaks are cheap. You can easily have a +5 CoR by 10th level. Not to mention bonuses from Wisdom, spells, traits, class features, racial traits and other save-boosting gear.

It's really, really easy to boost saving throws.

+11 is still pretty bad when at that level DC 27+ saves aren't uncommon.

Boostig saves is only easy if you take the options to boost saves. This is like saying a Cloak of Resistance isn't worthwhile because there are so many other ways to boost them.

I running a game right now for level characters. I haven't see a save DC above 20 yet on of the encounters I've put them against. Some of the save are as low a 12. So +11 is automatic for the low but then it should be for a CR 9 encounter especially if you invested in that save. A dragon has 24 reflex but I haven't sent them up against a dragon yet.


Well, yes, CR 9 encounters are going to have lower DCs than CR 20 ones...

The +11 figure was based on +5 Cloak and +6 base save bonus. At 10th it'd be +8 with only those two.

And CR 9 is SUPPOSED to be super easy for a level 10 character. CR 10 isn't much harder.

When you start looking at boss fights (CR 13-14) you start seeing stuff like DC 25 Will Confusion (Temerdaemon, CR 14) DC 23 Will and Fort for fear and death (Banshee, CR 13), and DC 23 Reflex Slime (Omox Demon, CR 12).

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Sundakan wrote:
Well, yes, CR 9 encounters are going to have lower DCs than CR 20 ones...

Throw two succubi at the party. That's cr9. Can you make those dc 23 wills saves? Sure you can.

==Aelryinth


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I always forget Succubi are so low CR.

Liberty's Edge

It's cause they don't act like CR 7s.


Mrakvampire wrote:

I agree that this feat should be banned.

It's no-brainer feat for every THW or TW builds. We need more OP must have feats? I don't think so.

I'm curious if you can actually name a single OP must-have combat feat. Even Power Attack and Deadly Aim aren't absolutes, as there's a number of styles Power Attack isn't actually that great with.

For the most part, feats suck. Quantity is generally the only way you're allowed to squeeze much quality out of them.

As far as this discussion goes, if someone's investing multiple feats and a lot of gold into having high AC, I don't see how them having high AC is somehow a problem rather than basic cause and effect at work. Maybe the dude who spent the ransom of three dozen kings on his weapons and armor would like to have enough AC the hugely strong monster he's fighting can't hit him somewhere between 50-95% of the time?


Blackwaltzomega wrote:
Mrakvampire wrote:

I agree that this feat should be banned.

It's no-brainer feat for every THW or TW builds. We need more OP must have feats? I don't think so.
As far as this discussion goes, if someone's investing multiple feats and a lot of gold into having high AC, I don't see how them having high AC is somehow a problem rather than basic cause and effect at work. Maybe the dude who spent the ransom of three dozen kings on his weapons and armor would like to have enough AC the hugely strong monster he's fighting can't hit him somewhere between 50-95% of the time?

Only 2 feats for fighter build.

25k gold for +5 buckler

At 13th level it's less than 18% of gold for HUGE bonus to AC.

Now please provide your argument why not to have this feat for every fighter wielding two-handed weapon? For comparison please consider animated shield from Core Rulebook. Why would anyone take it after you introduce this feat to your game?


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On one hand invalidating certain combat styles is really, really bad and I really hate it when that happens. On the other hand, AC is so f*+%ing hard to come by in this game that I see this feat as a nessisary evil if you want to play something that isn't hit every full BAB attack (that or some freaky multiclass option with obscure feats or spending every GP on AC) so I can't say whether I like this feat or not.

That said, this isn't even affecting touch AC, so a level 1 wizard still has an easy time pelting you with rays of frost!


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"Oh no! Useful feats for matrials to hold their own! What will we do? I guess I'll just plane shift back to West Palm Beach and have my mojitos. It's not like they're taking any of my stuff anyway" - Every Wizard ever.

Scarab Sages

If you skip shield focus, it's less effective in boosting defense. It's also still hurting you offensively, as the feat does nothing to remove the -1 to hit for using a buckler with a two-handed weapon.

Those are minor negatives, but they are costs for using the feat.


HyperMissingno wrote:

On one hand invalidating certain combat styles is really, really bad and I really hate it when that happens. On the other hand, AC is so f*$$ing hard to come by in this game that I see this feat as a nessisary evil if you want to play something that isn't hit every full BAB attack (that or some freaky multiclass option with obscure feats or spending every GP on AC) so I can't say whether I like this feat or not.

That said, this isn't even affecting touch AC, so a level 1 wizard still has an easy time pelting you with rays of frost!

Please do not start martial vs caster discussion here. We are talking about combat feat, not trying to figure out how to make sure that there is martial vs caster balance over there.


Imbicatus wrote:

If you skip shield focus, it's less effective in boosting defense. It's also still hurting you offensively, as the feat does nothing to remove the -1 to hit for using a buckler with a two-handed weapon.

Those are minor negatives, but they are costs for using the feat.

Potentially +6 AC and ability to have extra +5 for special properties like heavy fortification with only one feat for just -1 on attacks?

One feat to completely nullify need in shield special property that costs +2, requires move action and lasts only 4 rounds?
I assume that this is some kind of joke if you call this even remotely balanced.

Maybe we just need to start considering if a single feat, that grants +6 to attacks is balanced?

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

Let's introduce the 3.5 Shield Ward feat into PF. Shield AC to reflex and touch ac! (Note: redone as a PF feat in PAths of War).

I'm sure no casters will complain. Y'know, like they did in 3e.

==Aelryinth


Mrakvampire wrote:
HyperMissingno wrote:

On one hand invalidating certain combat styles is really, really bad and I really hate it when that happens. On the other hand, AC is so f*$$ing hard to come by in this game that I see this feat as a nessisary evil if you want to play something that isn't hit every full BAB attack (that or some freaky multiclass option with obscure feats or spending every GP on AC) so I can't say whether I like this feat or not.

That said, this isn't even affecting touch AC, so a level 1 wizard still has an easy time pelting you with rays of frost!

Please do not start martial vs caster discussion here. We are talking about combat feat, not trying to figure out how to make sure that there is martial vs caster balance over there.

Right, should have brought in another touch attack, like the ray from a lantern archon. This also does jack s!~# against that. If AC is bull to get up, then touch ac is one of the most poorly dealt with mechanics in pathfinder.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

Touch AC is purely there to let 1/2 BAB classes be able to contribute to combat. And Incorporeals dangerous.

Oh, and to make Guns overpowered. Can't forget firearms and lasers.

==Aelryinth


I say, let the Wizards miss with shocking grasp and shocking ray. Combat casters like Magi and Skalds should have better evocation magic anyway, since that's their thing.


Aelryinth wrote:

Let's introduce the 3.5 Shield Ward feat into PF. Shield AC to reflex and touch ac! (Note: redone as a PF feat in PAths of War).

I'm sure no casters will complain. Y'know, like they did in 3e.

==Aelryinth

Yeah, god forbid the guy who wanted to be well-defended with his highly powerful magical shield and armor not have his highly invested defenses arbitrarily bypassed because the guy who wanted to warp reality with his mind will go crying to mommy otherwise.

Scarab Sages

A buckler is also pretty easy to sunder.


Highly invested? 1-2 feats is highly invested? Oh come on...

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Blackwaltzomega wrote:
Aelryinth wrote:

Let's introduce the 3.5 Shield Ward feat into PF. Shield AC to reflex and touch ac! (Note: redone as a PF feat in PAths of War).

I'm sure no casters will complain. Y'know, like they did in 3e.

==Aelryinth

Yeah, god forbid the guy who wanted to be well-defended with his highly powerful magical shield and armor not have his highly invested defenses arbitrarily bypassed because the guy who wanted to warp reality with his mind will go crying to mommy otherwise.

You must not have heard the wails of utter anguish going up when Pierce Magical Concealment and Pierce Magical Defenses came out. Wow, was there a LOT of complaints about those two feats.

And the fact they gave -4 to caster level if you took them had nothing to do with it at all. heheh.

==Aelryinth

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Mrakvampire wrote:
Highly invested? 1-2 feats is highly invested? Oh come on...

Hey, it's 2 of your 10 feats, if you aren't a fighter.

Or 1 feat if you are.

Major investment, y'see.

==Aelryinth


Mrakvampire wrote:
Highly invested? 1-2 feats is highly invested? Oh come on...

20% of average available feats, minimum, and a sizable portion of your WBL you're not using to learn how to fly, get haste on demand, pierce DR faster, or get other very useful utility items compared to a couple more points of AC?

Yes, I consider that an investment. You put thousands of @&%*ing gold into your armor and shield to make them strong. Forgive me if I don't think the guy who can turn gravity on and off has much room to pitch a fit if he can't also tag a guy who did that with his rays whenever the heck he wants.

Liberty's Edge

Aelryinth wrote:
Nobody forgot about it. It's irrelevant to the discussion.

No. It isn't.

Aelryinth wrote:

1) it's not permanent AC. You actually have to cast it.

2) the casting takes an action.
3) it has a short duration.

These are legitimate downsides, yes. So's costing 2 Feats and 26k in gold, though...

Aelryinth wrote:
4) if you aren't a class that gets it naturally, you have to dip it.

Uh...no. UMD and a Wand are perfectly sufficient.

Aelryinth wrote:
5) There aren't any core magic items usable by everyone that let you use Shield.

Wand of Shield with UMD. As mentioned.

Aelryinth wrote:
6) If you can cast shield, you have to weigh the cost of casting it vs casting some other spell. With unhindered shield, you don't need to choose.

Oh, sure. Option paralysis always a factor. Not necessarily one that makes the version that has options worse, though.

Aelryinth wrote:
7) The spell can be dispelled.

It can indeed. A Shield can also be Sundered, of course...

Aelryinth wrote:
8) In an A-M field, the shield is worth +2 and the spell is worth 0.

Sure. Of course, that's a pretty niche circumstance.

And my above Fighter build has +2 AC in that circumstance, too.

Aelryinth wrote:
9) Classes that can use Shield are generally the least likely to want to use Unhindered Shield. It's the classes that want the AC of a shield but can't get it that want it.

The are indeed. I was just noting that a Fighter could use UMD, a Wand of Shield, and a couple of Feats, and get much the same AC even before these Feats existed. The Feats are indisputably easier and simpler, and debatably a bit better (the action economy particularly)...but not nearly to the degree you're painting them as.


Honestly, it's a rather meh feat for the value.
At maximum investment it's two feats and around 25k gp for an effective +7 AC increase, which while solid, isn't exactly golden standard. Additionally, the two classes that get the most out of it (Magus and Monk) don't start out with Shield prof, which means they need to get a third feat for it.
OTOH, any class can get a protector familiar for two feats (One for Magus), which effectively becomes a +50% HP increase at higher levels. Either a Skill Focus: Knowledge for Eldritch Heritage or Iron Will are feats that at least give you a bonus. As a Magus or as a Monk, the first two feats are basically worthless.
And for two-handed weapon users? Shield Brace is outright better. Just slap on a Darkwood or Mithral Heavy Shield to eliminate ACP, and you still have the Nodachi, a martial 1d10 18-20/x2 weapon that counts for both Heavy Blades and Polearms to work with, which has both slashing and piercing damage to boot.


I don't think you take the buckler penalty with this feat and attack with a two-handed weapon since you count your hand as free and not following the normal buckler rules.


Aelryinth wrote:
Blackwaltzomega wrote:
Aelryinth wrote:

Let's introduce the 3.5 Shield Ward feat into PF. Shield AC to reflex and touch ac! (Note: redone as a PF feat in PAths of War).

I'm sure no casters will complain. Y'know, like they did in 3e.

==Aelryinth

Yeah, god forbid the guy who wanted to be well-defended with his highly powerful magical shield and armor not have his highly invested defenses arbitrarily bypassed because the guy who wanted to warp reality with his mind will go crying to mommy otherwise.

You must not have heard the wails of utter anguish going up when Pierce Magical Concealment and Pierce Magical Defenses came out. Wow, was there a LOT of complaints about those two feats.

And the fact they gave -4 to caster level if you took them had nothing to do with it at all. heheh.

==Aelryinth

I honestly feel the game would benefit from bringing 'em back in. Certainly Disruptive isn't putting the fear of god into a lot of mages these days, and that's sorta held up as THE anti-mage feat.


Blackwaltzomega wrote:

20% of average available feats, minimum, and a sizable portion of your WBL you're not using to learn how to fly, get haste on demand, pierce DR faster, or get other very useful utility items compared to a couple more points of AC?

Yes, I consider that an investment. You put thousands of @&%*ing gold into your armor and shield to make them strong. Forgive me if I don't think the guy who can turn gravity on and off has much room to pitch a fit if he can't also tag a guy who did that with his rays whenever the heck he wants.

10-20% is 1-2 feats. It is not an investment at all, it's just feat, like Dodge, Improved Initiative or Iron Will.

Should I start arguing that I think that my heavily invested in Fort (Great Fortitude and Improved Great Fortitude feats taken) wizard SHOULD in fact have +6 extra on Fortitude?
Wealth spent on defense (AC specifically) for melee combatant is one of THE best investment in the game. After all you will save a lot of money on those Raise Deads / Resurrections + Restorations that party cleric wouldn't need to cast on you.

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Imbicatus wrote:
A buckler is also pretty easy to sunder.

uh, what?

It's got 5 hp less then a shield. Same hardness.

An Adamantine Buckler (Hardness 20) +5 (to 30) with a 20th level Hardening cast on it (+10) is Hardness 40. Hp 6, +50 for Enhancement, x2 for Rune of Durability, we're sitting at 112 HP. And if you bother to make it Impervious if you're scared of Sunder, that's another +10 Hardness and +100 HP.

Even at low levels, as soon as you make it out of something better then steel, and enhance it to +1 or +2, sundering it is NOT easy.

==Aelryinth


Deadmanwalking wrote:


Uh...no. UMD and a Wand are perfectly sufficient.

Wand requires free hand to use, takes your standard action out of your how many per average combat? 4? 5? 20-25% of you action economy spent just to activate 1 min buff for +4 AC? Oh come on...

And you have to have +19 UMD skill to activate it without chance of failure.

Deadmanwalking wrote:


It can indeed. A Shield can also be Sundered, of course...

It can be, of course, but Shield activated from wand is in fact auto-dispelled at 10+ level. I'm not going to calculate hardness of average +5 adamantine buckler protected with Hardness and magic stone that increases hardness of items, but you can trust me - it's nearly impossible to easily sunder +5 adamantine buckler of a decent fighter.

Overall, you compare something that takes up 20-25% of your combat action economy, that is easily dispelled, that can't have heavy fortification on it, can provide 3 AC less, that takes up huge chunk of your skill points and even after that you have to roll to activate till really late game... you compare this all with just one feat?


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Mrakvampire wrote:
Blackwaltzomega wrote:

20% of average available feats, minimum, and a sizable portion of your WBL you're not using to learn how to fly, get haste on demand, pierce DR faster, or get other very useful utility items compared to a couple more points of AC?

Yes, I consider that an investment. You put thousands of @&%*ing gold into your armor and shield to make them strong. Forgive me if I don't think the guy who can turn gravity on and off has much room to pitch a fit if he can't also tag a guy who did that with his rays whenever the heck he wants.

10-20% is 1-2 feats. It is not an investment at all, it's just feat, like Dodge, Improved Initiative or Iron Will.

Should I start arguing that I think that my heavily invested in Fort (Great Fortitude and Improved Great Fortitude feats taken) wizard SHOULD in fact have +6 extra on Fortitude?
Wealth spent on defense (AC specifically) for melee combatant is one of THE best investment in the game. After all you will save a lot of money on those Raise Deads / Resurrections + Restorations that party cleric wouldn't need to cast on you.

See, the impression I'm getting from a lot of these discussions is the lingering notion that feats should not do a lot. Despite being one of the most slowly-acquired resources you've got. The base assumption of the game is that you will have ten feats, eleven if you're human, because you can't assume bonus feats.

Then consider most games don't go past level ten. that's 5 feats, total, 6 if you're human, and then you can count bonus feats.

Two out of the five feats you are going to get all game is not nothing. Even if you're at something closer to eight feats like many martial classes played 1-10 would be, that's still 25% of your feats if you invested no other feats in making your shield better. If you also took the aforementioned feat to get that bonus on touch and reflex, then that's three out of eight or so. Not an insignificant opportunity cost.

The thought that something that takes two feats shouldn't do anything special is the reason most combat feats are designed for quantity over quality. People design like there is always a feat to spare when in my experience the exact opposite tends to be true.


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A feat with multiple requirements that doesn't even *give* something, just lets you not lose what little you get from having the weakest type of shield?

If it weren't for shields being something you can stick an enhancement bonus on, this would be outright worthless. And I say this from the view of someone who uses 3pp, because without things such as Defensive Expertise or Iron Tortoise, shields are just plain bad.

Too Powerful? This? Gods, it's like Crane Wing all over again. Someone needs a good smack behind the head.

[edit: regarding "feats shouldn't do much", do those same people balking at keeping a buckler think Sacred Geometry and Natural Spell are totally A-OK? I'd not be surprised]


Aelryinth wrote:
Imbicatus wrote:
A buckler is also pretty easy to sunder.

uh, what?

It's got 5 hp less then a shield. Same hardness.

An Adamantine Buckler (Hardness 20) +5 (to 30) with a 20th level Hardening cast on it (+10) is Hardness 40. Hp 6, +50 for Enhancement, x2 for Rune of Durability, we're sitting at 112 HP. And if you bother to make it Impervious if you're scared of Sunder, that's another +10 Hardness and +100 HP.

Even at low levels, as soon as you make it out of something better then steel, and enhance it to +1 or +2, sundering it is NOT easy.

==Aelryinth

Not only this, but then there's always Greater Make Whole to fix the item if things end up going awry. Heck, going back to the protector familiar, there's 17 Dex guys, which means that four times per round you are treated as having your AC as 2 points higher, 3 if you retrained the starter feat for Additional Traits>Helpful (Combat), not having weapon finesse as a feat is irrelevant since familiars already get Dex to attack rolls from baseline.

Liberty's Edge

Imbicatus wrote:
It's also still hurting you offensively, as the feat does nothing to remove the -1 to hit for using a buckler with a two-handed weapon.

I think it does actually;

"When you wield a buckler, your shield hand is considered free for the purposes of casting spells, wielding weapons, and using any other abilities that require you to have a free hand or interact with your shield..."

Normally, when you are wielding a weapon with an arm that also has a buckler attached the interaction of the two results in a -1 penalty to your attack. I read the sentence above to be saying that with Unhindering Shield that does not happen. The hand is considered completely free / there is no negative interaction from the buckler. Note that it was already possible to wield a weapon while wearing a buckler on the same arm. Thus, the difference that is being expressed for this feat is that it allows the weapon to be wielded as if the hand were free rather than also having a buckler there.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

Deadman, if you're saying that investing 10-15 ranks in a non-class skill, a trait to make it a class skill, Charisma to make it effective sooner, you need the Quickdraw feat if you want to use it the same round you draw it, and then you need to spend a standard action to cast it is NOT an investment, you and me need to have a discussion.

Trait + skill ranks + non-class helping Stat investment + risk of failure until 12th+ level + feat to draw the wand quick for use + possible Skill Focus feat is NOT equal to getting a sweet +4 shield bonus active all the time at 6th for 1 or 2 feats, depending on class. And yours only lasts a minute at a time!

Seriously, even sorcs who have the spell don't cast it every fight. The opportunity cost is too high. With the feat, you don't HAVE ANY opportunity cost!

==Aelryinth


Jamie Charlan wrote:
A feat with multiple requirements that doesn't even *give* something, just lets you not lose what little you get from having the weakest type of shield?

Multiple requirements? Doesn't give something? +7 AC isn't something? fighter level 4 and 1 feat are multiple requirements? Oh, wait a sec... It reminds me... Weapon Specialization.


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Aelryinth wrote:

Let's introduce the 3.5 Shield Ward feat into PF. Shield AC to reflex and touch ac! (Note: redone as a PF feat in PAths of War).

I'm sure no casters will complain. Y'know, like they did in 3e.

==Aelryinth

I'm using it now.

The effect: Touch attacks miss like 15% of the time instead of only 5%!


Mrakvampire wrote:
Jamie Charlan wrote:
A feat with multiple requirements that doesn't even *give* something, just lets you not lose what little you get from having the weakest type of shield?
Multiple requirements? Doesn't give something? +7 AC isn't something? fighter level 4 and 1 feat are multiple requirements? Oh, wait a sec... It reminds me... Weapon Specialization.

Let's do some numbers for a Human Kensai magus (Because Fighter level -3 at 7th). At 7th level, he becomes able to pick Unhindered Shield.

Naturally, this means that of his 6 feats, he's spent half of them, plus around 16% of his WBL to get a +2 buckler, earning him a +4 to AC. Naturally, this means that not only he's been leveling with two dead feat slots until then, but that he could've earned his protector familiar for one feat instead and just be at 1 AC lower four times per round (And getting attacked more than that during a turn is generally a sign that things are already going to hell).
Because of how much a character will be spending on improving his shield, the bonus won't scale to +5 until 9th, +6 until 12th, and +7 until 15th, assuming a considerable investment into keeping that buckler on par.


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Mrakvampire wrote:
Jamie Charlan wrote:
A feat with multiple requirements that doesn't even *give* something, just lets you not lose what little you get from having the weakest type of shield?
Multiple requirements? Doesn't give something? +7 AC isn't something? fighter level 4 and 1 feat are multiple requirements? Oh, wait a sec... It reminds me... Weapon Specialization.

That Shield AC can be obtained from things like dancing shields already without a feat. The feat only lets you not lose the gear bonus from a piece of equipment; it in and of itself is NOT providing +7AC.

Besides, one of those AC is from Shield Focus. You could've grabbed Dodge and have a +1 that's negated less often, isn't conditional on what you've got in hand, as well as applies to your Touch AC.

Shields do little to nothing against touch attacks or save-based "not attacks" unless you've got 3rd party materials. Not without large feat-chains such as the ray-deflecting one.

Liberty's Edge

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Mrakvampire wrote:
Wand requires free hand to use, takes your standard action out of your how many per average combat? 4? 5? 20-25% of you action economy spent just to activate 1 min buff for +4 AC? Oh come on...

I dunno, if you're not gonna get a Full Attack anyway, giving up one action for +4 Ac is often a very good trade.

And you only need a free hand for long enough to cast. You can hold your Greatsword in your other that long, then drop the Wand as a free action.

Mrakvampire wrote:
And you have to have +19 UMD skill to activate it without chance of failure.

Sure. But on the opther hand, by the time you've got a free 26k, that's pretty likely.

Mrakvampire wrote:

It can be, of course, but Shield activated from wand is in fact auto-dispelled at 10+ level. I'm not going to calculate hardness of average +5 adamantine buckler protected with Hardness and magic stone that increases hardness of items, but you can trust me - it's nearly impossible to easily sunder +5 adamantine buckler of a decent fighter.

Overall, you compare something that takes up 20-25% of your combat action economy, that is easily dispelled, that can't have heavy fortification on it, can provide 3 AC less, that takes up huge chunk of your skill points and even after that you have to roll to activate till really late game... you compare this all with just one feat?

It provides 1 less AC in combination with Feats, actually. Not 3. And an adamantine buckler raises the price even more.

I'm not actually arguing that going the Wand of Shield route is as good as going the Unhindered Shield route. It's probably not. I'm arguing that they're close enough that this isn't likely to break the game.

And one of the Classes people are saying is broken with this Feat is Magus, who get vastly greater advantages going the Shield route, since it's on their list and they can cast it and Full Attack with Spell Combat.


Tuvarkz wrote:

Let's do some numbers for a Human Kensai magus (Because Fighter level -3 at 7th). At 7th level, he becomes able to pick Unhindered Shield.

Naturally, this means that of his 6 feats, he's spent half of them, plus around 16% of his WBL to get a +2 buckler, earning him a +4 to AC. Naturally, this means that not only he's been leveling with two dead feat slots until then, but that he could've earned his protector familiar for one feat instead and just be at 1 AC lower four times per round (And getting attacked more than that during a turn is generally a sign that things are already going to hell).
Because of how much a character will be spending on improving his shield, the bonus won't scale to +5 until 9th, +6 until 12th, and +7 until 15th, assuming a considerable investment into keeping that buckler on par.

Why do you calculate this for kensai?

Just take two-handed fighter and calculate how awesome he is right now with this feat just for 25k gold that is negligible by 12-13 level.


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Mrakvampire wrote:
Please do not start martial vs caster discussion here.

Can not be avoided. Not as long as people argue that martials gets too good things.

Mrakvampire wrote:

Why do you calculate this for kensai?

Just take two-handed fighter and calculate how awesome he is right now with this feat just for 25k gold that is negligible by 12-13 level.

No. It is not "negligible" at 12th-13th level. Neither is the feat cost.


Mrakvampire wrote:
Tuvarkz wrote:

Let's do some numbers for a Human Kensai magus (Because Fighter level -3 at 7th). At 7th level, he becomes able to pick Unhindered Shield.

Naturally, this means that of his 6 feats, he's spent half of them, plus around 16% of his WBL to get a +2 buckler, earning him a +4 to AC. Naturally, this means that not only he's been leveling with two dead feat slots until then, but that he could've earned his protector familiar for one feat instead and just be at 1 AC lower four times per round (And getting attacked more than that during a turn is generally a sign that things are already going to hell).
Because of how much a character will be spending on improving his shield, the bonus won't scale to +5 until 9th, +6 until 12th, and +7 until 15th, assuming a considerable investment into keeping that buckler on par.

Why do you calculate this for kensai?

Just take two-handed fighter and calculate how awesome he is right now with this feat just for 25k gold that is negligible by 12-13 level.

Because as I've stated a couple posts before, Fighter is better off with Shield Brace since the nodachi as a weapon provides better DPR than a greatsword and is also a polearm. Also, by level 12-13, 25k gp is 25% and 18% of the WBL respectively, not a neglible amount of gold by any means. And then, for those same two feats, you can pickup Difficult Swings/Cut from the Air, which basically make you harder to full attack against enemies of the same size (Your local friendly wizard will do the Enlarge Person when needed) and enough ranged attack parries that the enemy archers won't be a problem either.


Jamie Charlan wrote:
That Shield AC can be obtained from things like dancing shields already without a feat. The feat only lets you not lose the gear bonus from a piece of equipment; it in and of itself is NOT providing +7AC.

It keeps going over and over again.

Just please, please, please read the rules. Animated shield requires and activation (move action), work only for 4 rounds, and have a cost of +2. Why do you compare just 1 (one!) feat with this, I do not understand.

Jamie Charlan wrote:


Besides, one of those AC is from Shield Focus. You could've grabbed Dodge and have a +1 that's negated less often, isn't conditional on what you've got in hand, as well as applies to your Touch AC.

Shields do little to nothing against touch attacks or save-based "not attacks" unless you've got 3rd party materials. Not without large feat-chains such as the ray-deflecting one.

I do not care if shields are already weak. I do not care if you could have taken Dodge. I don't care if you can, or can't apply shield bonus vs rays, etc.

I look at one feat, I repeat, one feat, that by itself can allow to have extra +6 AC and get extra 75% fortication chance and call it broken. Cause it's now a new must have for every, I repeat, every martial build that considers using two-handed weapons or two weapons. It is just like creating a feat that will grant +6 on attack rolls or +3 to all spell DC. Now call those feats balanced too.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

Or, he could NOT cast Shield, saving the slot for a true strike or Shocking Grasp or what not. He's only got so many spell slots, and them Pearls start getting pricey.

And the buckler is +5 probably by 12th...it's as cheap to raise as magic armor. If you want AC, you'll have your shield (and armor) to +5 before you have Ring and Amulet to +3. As for adamantine...that's if you want to make it nigh unsunderable. Or, if you use the feat where you sacrifice your shield to absorb a hit (I forget the name? ALthough the Weapon Sacrifice AWT would probably work, too).

Note that Shield defensive feats aren't even an option if you don't take this feat. If you do, they are! Nor can a Shield Spell provide Heavy Fortification.

As far as level goes, it'll be +1 at 3rd if you are a fighter, probably +2 at 6-7, +3 by 8-10, and +4 to +5 by 12th. It IS the cheapest way to gain AC. If you have the option, you are on the rapid AC advance schema.

==Aelryinth

Liberty's Edge

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Aelryinth wrote:
Deadman, if you're saying that investing 10-15 ranks in a non-class skill, a trait to make it a class skill, Charisma to make it effective sooner, you need the Quickdraw feat if you want to use it the same round you draw it, and then you need to spend a standard action to cast it is NOT an investment, you and me need to have a discussion.

Oh, it's an investment. An investment in what's probably the second best skill in the game, and a few other useful tricks, but an investment.

I'm arguing that (action economy aside) it's not a vastly larger investment than Unhindered Shield is.

Aelryinth wrote:
Trait + skill ranks + non-class helping Stat investment + risk of failure until 12th+ level + feat to draw the wand quick for use + possible Skill Focus feat is NOT equal to getting a sweet +4 shield bonus active all the time at 6th for 1 or 2 feats, depending on class. And yours only lasts a minute at a time!

Having a +4 from Unhindered Shield at 6th costs 1/4 of your GP (over 4k). The Feats I suggested to go with Shield result in +2 AC, +6 with Shield up, and cost less than 1k gp, leaving 3k, which might well be yet another +1 AC for +3 normally and +7 with shield at that level.

The advantage Unhindered Shield has grows with level, of course. But then, I'm not saying you're better off getting a Wand of Shield. I never was. I'm saying that doing so was close enough to be a valid basis for comparison.

For a Fighter specifically there's also Defensive Weapon Training, which is a +3 Shield Bonus AC for one Feat as early as 9th or so, and eventually +4. 3 less than the +7 granted by Shield Focus + Unhindered Shield, but a Feat and 26k in gold cheaper (and if you spend the Feat on Dodge, you're only 2 AC less). And that takes no actions to do.

Aelryinth wrote:
Seriously, even sorcs who have the spell don't cast it every fight. The opportunity cost is too high. With the feat, you don't HAVE ANY opportunity cost!

You have the opportunity cost of investing 2 Feats and 26k in gold. That's not nothing.

It's probably a lower opportunity cost in many games, I won't deny. but it's not brokenly lower which was more or less my point.


Mrakvampire wrote:
Jamie Charlan wrote:
That Shield AC can be obtained from things like dancing shields already without a feat. The feat only lets you not lose the gear bonus from a piece of equipment; it in and of itself is NOT providing +7AC.

It keeps going over and over again.

Just please, please, please read the rules. Animated shield requires and activation (move action), work only for 4 rounds, and have a cost of +2. Why do you compare just 1 (one!) feat with this, I do not understand.

Jamie Charlan wrote:


Besides, one of those AC is from Shield Focus. You could've grabbed Dodge and have a +1 that's negated less often, isn't conditional on what you've got in hand, as well as applies to your Touch AC.

Shields do little to nothing against touch attacks or save-based "not attacks" unless you've got 3rd party materials. Not without large feat-chains such as the ray-deflecting one.

I do not care if shields are already weak. I do not care if you could have taken Dodge. I don't care if you can, or can't apply shield bonus vs rays, etc.

I look at one feat, I repeat, one feat, that by itself can allow to have extra +6 AC and get extra 75% fortication chance and call it broken. Cause it's now a new must have for every, I repeat, every martial build that considers using two-handed weapons or two weapons. It is just like creating a feat that will grant +6 on attack rolls or +3 to all spell DC. Now call those feats balanced too.

Oh, are you forgetting that +6 to AC and 75% Fort being prohibitively expensive (at least without killing your offensive power) until levels 17-19 when local friendly wizard has just hit his 9th level slots and can choose to completely stop paying attention to his now borderline "Worth four level 1-4 spell slots" fighter friend?


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Mrakvampire wrote:
Jamie Charlan wrote:
That Shield AC can be obtained from things like dancing shields already without a feat. The feat only lets you not lose the gear bonus from a piece of equipment; it in and of itself is NOT providing +7AC.

It keeps going over and over again.

Just please, please, please read the rules. Animated shield requires and activation (move action), work only for 4 rounds, and have a cost of +2. Why do you compare just 1 (one!) feat with this, I do not understand.

Jamie Charlan wrote:


Besides, one of those AC is from Shield Focus. You could've grabbed Dodge and have a +1 that's negated less often, isn't conditional on what you've got in hand, as well as applies to your Touch AC.

Shields do little to nothing against touch attacks or save-based "not attacks" unless you've got 3rd party materials. Not without large feat-chains such as the ray-deflecting one.

I do not care if shields are already weak. I do not care if you could have taken Dodge. I don't care if you can, or can't apply shield bonus vs rays, etc.

I look at one feat, I repeat, one feat, that by itself can allow to have extra +6 AC and get extra 75% fortication chance and call it broken. Cause it's now a new must have for every, I repeat, every martial build that considers using two-handed weapons or two weapons. It is just like creating a feat that will grant +6 on attack rolls or +3 to all spell DC. Now call those feats balanced too.

Um, you do realize everything past +2 AC on this is purely a function of GOLD and not the feat itself, right?

I mean, by this logic Weapon Specialization gives you +7 damage and the power to pierce miss chances for one feat because you're using a +5 Heartseeker Sword.

Also, EVERY? Give me a @&%*ing break. If I'm playing a barbarian, I could have two rage powers and a free 25k to spend on utility items for this cost, and guess what? That's a better deal pretty much all the time for a barbarian.

Two weapon fighting has enough feat taxes involved in it that if you are taking shield focus you are going for the regular-ass sword & board that has always existed or you are a moron.


Tuvarkz wrote:
Because as I've stated a couple posts before, Fighter is better off with Shield Brace

Ok you compare one similary broken feat with another to provide argument that this feat is actually balanced? How nice.

Usually something NEW is compared with something OLD, but who am I after all to tell you this.


Quote:
I look at one feat, I repeat, one feat, that by itself can allow to have extra +6 AC and get extra 75% fortication chance and call it broken.

You mean one feat that gives you +1 AC. It's spending gold that adds the rest.

Quote:
Cause it's now a new must have for every, I repeat, every martial build that considers using two-handed weapons or two weapons.

Except for sword and board builds, shield brace builds, characters with access to their own shield bonus and characters who doesn't want to spend three feats for some extra AC.

Oh no.

Quote:
Just please, please, please read the rules. Animated shield requires and activation (move action), work only for 4 rounds, and have a cost of +2. Why do you compare just 1 (one!) feat with this, I do not understand.

Well, a +3 animated heavy shield gives 5 AC, a +5 buckler gives 6. So you spend a feat for +1 AC and to save a move action once per combat.

Huh, worded like that it actually doesn't sound that bad.


Tuvarkz wrote:
Oh, are you forgetting that +6 to AC and 75% Fort being prohibitively expensive (at least without killing your offensive power) until levels 17-19 when local friendly wizard has just hit his 9th level slots and can choose to completely stop paying attention to his now borderline "Worth four level 1-4 spell slots" fighter friend?

+5 heavy fortification shield is 50k to create via Item Creation Feat.

At something like 15th level it is an ok.

Plus you can always go with ordinary buckler and ask party cleric to can Magic Vestment on it. Free of charge. Completely.

Where is your WBL now?

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