This Weapon adds +9 to CMB and CMD


Rules Questions


I'm about to acquire a new weapon. It's for PFS and I want to make sure all of this is legal.

This weapon will have the Dueling (Melee Weapon Special Ability) from the Pathfinder Campaign Setting: Pathfinder Society Field Guide. Not to be confused with the Dueling special ability from Ultimate Equipment.

Dueling:
A dueling weapon bears magical enhancements that makes it particularly effective at performing certain combat maneuvers. When a dueling weapon is used to perform a combat maneuver that utilizes the weapon only (see below), it grants a luck bonus equal to twice its enhancement bonus on the CMB check made to carry out the maneuver. The dueling weapon also grants this same luck bonus to the wielder’s CMD score against these types of combat maneuvers. These combat maneuvers include disarm and trip maneuvers, but not bull rush, grapple, or overrun maneuvers. If you’re using the additional combat maneuvers in the Advanced Player’s Guide, this also includes any dirty trick maneuvers that utilize the weapon, as well as reposition combat maneuvers, but not drag or steal combat maneuvers. Note that this luck bonus stacks with the weapon’s enhancement bonus, which in and of itself adds to CMB checks normally.

I will be combining this with the magus's ability to increase the the enhancement bonus of his weapon.

Arcane Pool:
At 1st level, a magus can expend 1 point from his arcane pool as a swift action to grant any weapon he is holding a +1 enhancement bonus for 1 minute. For every four levels beyond 1st, the weapon gains another +1 enhancement bonus, to a maximum of +5 at 17th level. These bonuses can be added to the weapon, stacking with existing weapon enhancement to a maximum of +5.

So, if I am reading this right, a 5th level magus with a +1 dueling weapon can use an arcane pool point to make the weapon a +3 dueling weapon. A +3 dueling weapon gives a +6 luck bonus. This makes the weapon a +9 weapon on most combat maneuvers and gives the wielder a +9 to CMD vs those maneuvers.

Right?


yup.

That enchantment is the single best booster for maneuver characters.


Correct.

Keep in mind that if you are affected by a Luck Bonus to Attack Rolls, it will not stack with your weapon properties.


The Fate's Favored trait would make it a +10 weapon.


Would it? Is the weapon getting the luck bonus or the character?


The weapon grants the bonus to the character.

Sczarni

Keep in mind that these CMB checks are done via weapon exclusively. While you do get a significant boost, you still risk dropping the weapon via disarm per normal rules and some dirty trick maneuvers might not apply (expect table variation here). I am also unsure if this luck bonus applies to all stated CMB checks or a single CMB check chosen at the time of creation because a flat increase in of +3 (for +1 weapon) on all four stated CMB checks seems a bit high. Other then that, I can't see anything wrong with your interpretation. Just have a page from the PFS Guide printed out up-front so the GMs can see it, otherwise they might mix the two enchantments with the same name.

Edit: You receive 2x Ench bonus as luck and weapon Ench on CMB rolls, but same doesn't apply to CMD. You only receive fixed luck bonus on CMD, so essentially you would get +9 on CMB and +6 on CMD (in your example above).

Adam


Wow, that is, wow. I am almost glad that enhancement isn't in our game.

Sovereign Court

Maybe I'll use my last tiefling GM credit blob to become a magus after all. I was looking for something, anything, different than a shocking grasp build. This looks hefty enough to be a worthy alternative.


Malag wrote:

Keep in mind that these CMB checks are done via weapon exclusively. While you do get a significant boost, you still risk dropping the weapon via disarm per normal rules and some dirty trick maneuvers might not apply (expect table variation here). I am also unsure if this luck bonus applies to all stated CMB checks or a single CMB check chosen at the time of creation because a flat increase in of +3 (for +1 weapon) on all four stated CMB checks seems a bit high. Other then that, I can't see anything wrong with your interpretation. Just have a page from the PFS Guide printed out up-front so the GMs can see it, otherwise they might mix the two enchantments with the same name.

Edit: You receive 2x Ench bonus as luck and weapon Ench on CMB rolls, but same doesn't apply to CMD. You only receive fixed luck bonus on CMD, so essentially you would get +9 on CMB and +6 on CMD (in your example above).

Adam

Incorrect.

Dueling wrote:
The dueling weapon also grants this same luck bonus to the wielder’s CMD score against these types of combat maneuvers.

It says it provides the same bonus to CMD. That bonus it references is 2x Enhancement as a Luck Bonus.

That being said, I don't know why it's not an Insight Bonus, because it involves being skilled in your ability to perform combat maneuvers, not being lucky...


everybody has access to this nice little exploit via VMC Magus, albeit at lvl-2.

Sczarni

Darksol the Painbringer wrote:

Incorrect.

Dueling wrote:
The dueling weapon also grants this same luck bonus to the wielder’s CMD score against these types of combat maneuvers.

It says it provides the same bonus to CMD. That bonus it references is 2x Enhancement as a Luck Bonus.

That being said, I don't know why it's not an Insight Bonus, because it involves being skilled in your ability to perform combat maneuvers, not being lucky...

Please don't write "Incorrect." if it isn't incorrect. Read the property again and slow down those typing fingers.

A +3 dueling weapon (with Dueling enhancement from PFS Guide of course) provides the +3 bonus on attack rolls done via weapon and +6 luck bonus on specific CMB checks already mentioned in dueling property with a total net gain of +9 on specific CMB checks. The bonus that applies to attack rolls however doesn't apply to CMD because CMD isn't an attack roll, so you only receive +6 luck bonus on CMD against these same maneuvers, not a +9.


also nice if you got greater magic weapon....

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

GMW doesn't stack on top of existing bonuses like the Magus ability does. So, you'll likely get +1 out of it, at most.

==Aelryinth


Enhancement bonuses only add to cmb of disarm, trip, and sunder. Drag and reposition are also included if it is a weapon with the trip special. Dirty trick might be added if the GM allows on a case by case basis. I can't post link by SKR but ruling was made back in 2011. Unsure if there has been further update or errata.


Kifaru wrote:

The weapon grants the bonus to the character.

Is that really the case? If I hold this weapon in one hand but trip with my body, is the weapon granting the bonus to me? It seems that it must be used as part of the attack according to the writing. So I ask then, does this mean the character gets it or is the character adding a bonus to the weapon and then the weapon to the check?

I realize it's only a plus 1 bonus. But it does say increase the amount on the character not things the character holds. So it's valid.


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Weapons in and of themselves do not make attacks. Characters make attacks. Weapons with with bonuses give those bonuses to the wielder when the wielder makes an attack with the weapon.


Could you quote me that somewhere?

I fully understand the logic. I really am not trying to be difficult about it. Just want some clear rulings about it.


Moto Muck wrote:
Enhancement bonuses only add to cmb of disarm, trip, and sunder. Drag and reposition are also included if it is a weapon with the trip special. Dirty trick might be added if the GM allows on a case by case basis. I can't post link by SKR but ruling was made back in 2011. Unsure if there has been further update or errata.

The ruling was made in regards to how Weapon Finesse interacted with such maneuvers. Here it is.

Keep in mind that the effects of Weapon Finesse (and other subjects that you utilize the benefits for the weapon,) only work when you are using the weapon in question to perform the maneuver. Otherwise, subjects which don't use the weapon (such as Grapple or Bull Rush) don't receive the weapon's benefits, unless they specifically state so.


Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
Moto Muck wrote:
Enhancement bonuses only add to cmb of disarm, trip, and sunder. Drag and reposition are also included if it is a weapon with the trip special. Dirty trick might be added if the GM allows on a case by case basis. I can't post link by SKR but ruling was made back in 2011. Unsure if there has been further update or errata.

The ruling was made in regards to how Weapon Finesse interacted with such maneuvers. Here it is.

Keep in mind that the effects of Weapon Finesse (and other subjects that you utilize the benefits for the weapon,) only work when you are using the weapon in question to perform the maneuver. Otherwise, subjects which don't use the weapon (such as Grapple or Bull Rush) don't receive the weapon's benefits, unless they specifically state so.

That wasn't the ruling I was referring to. Find it here:

[url=http://paizo.com/paizo/blog/v5748dyo5lcom][/url]

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