Questions: Shields.

[T.]

Hello! I've recently joined a group to play but, even using my free time to gather as much information as I can, there are some things that I cannot find/understand. So I've found myself, new and ignorant, needed of help on even basic things.

For start, I've seen this trait "Shield-Trained". With this trait, heavy shields are considered light for me.

1. - That means I can apply "Weapon Finesse" to heavy shields if I select this trait?

If the answer to the first question is “yes”, reading the "Weapon Finesse" feat we can see that the shield penalty applies to attack rolls so, my second question is:

2. - There is a way to not get the shield penalty to hit or reduce the heavy shield penalty to 0 in a very low level (1-3)?

In some old threads, I've seen the "Bashing" property. It makes you shield deal damage as if it is a bashing weapon of two size categories larger. But at the end we can read:

Bashing wrote:

"Only light and heavy shields can have this ability".

Then if I read the "Shield Spikes", which increase the damage dealt by a shield bash as if the shield were designed for a creature one size category larger, the third and fourth questions arise:

3. - A "Heavy/Light Spiked Shield" count as a "Heavy/Light Shield" or it is considered as a different kind of shield?

If it is another type of shield, then it can’t be enhanced with the "Bashing" property but, if it still is a "Heavy or Light Shield" it can have this enhancement. If the second case is the correct (I think it is the first but, just in case I’m wrong):

4. - If it can be enhanced with it, both ("Shield Spikes" and "Bashing") would stack?

As far as I know, any armor/weapon have to be masterworked to be enhanced with magic properties and this leads me fifth, sixth and seventh questions:

5. - To be able to enhance it with armor and/or weapon properties, they have to be masterworked as both (armor and weapon; 450gp?), as an armor (150gp) or as a weapon (300gp)?

In the shield description (Light and Heavy Shields and their spiked versions) we can read:

Shield wrote:

An enhancement bonus on a shield does not improve the effectiveness of a shield bash made with it, but the shield can be made into a magic weapon in its own right.

In the last paragraph of the masterwork description we can read:

Masterwork Armor/Shield wrote:

Even though some types of armor and shields can be used as weapons, you can’t create a masterwork version of such an item that confers an enhancement bonus on attack rolls. However, you can create masterwork armor spikes and shield spikes, which do confer their enhancement bonus on attack rolls to attacks made with the spikes.

First I should add that this last description it’s the first and only one place I’ve seen that treat the "Shield Spikes" as a weapon on they own and the "Heavy/Light Spiked Shield" is the usual shield with spikes attached to it (I'm not sure how to sucesfully explain it). In the other hand, I can see too as a way to explain more easily the possibility to masterwork the "Shield Spikes" for having the option of getting an early +1 to hit but there is no need of it for magical enhancements and there is no "Shield and Shield with Spikes" there is a "Shield and a Spiked Shield" (again, I'm not sure how to succesfully explain it); and it seems intended option to me. But in case that I understand it in the wrong way:

6. - If for some reason it is necessary to masterwork "Shield Spikes", what can do someone with a Shield without spikes to enhance it with weapon properties?

7. - The magical properties of armor and weapons placed on a shield, do they have a maximum of "+10" between both or each has its own maximum? Letting the Shield having an effective maximum of "+10/+10".

This questions drive me to the eighth question:

8. - How should I calculate the price of mixing armor and weapon properties on a Shield?

-> Bonus questions:

9. - With the "Shield Slam" feat the enemy is always afected by a Bull Rush or the player choose when he want to use it?

10. - Would the "Masterwork Transformation" Spell be the only exception to the rule that masterwork quality cannot be added to an object already created?

Thanks in advance for giving your time reading that long post and for the answers.
Finally, apologize for typos and misspellings.

[Chess Pwn]

1)yes
2)mithral?
3)your heavy shield is a light weapon but still a heavy shield.
4)no
5)You can't do it as a masterwork weapon, so only masterwork is needed (150)
6)a normal shield that is masterwork? pay 2000 to make it a +1
7)each part has its own +10 cap, so effective maximum of "+10/+10".
8)like normal? weapon is 2000 for +1 and 8000 for +2 etc, and armor is 1000 for +1 and 4000 for +2 etc. they don't effect each other.
9)I believe so.

[N N 959]

3. A spiked shield is "a weapon in its own right." So while both improve your shield AC, a spiked shield has its own entry in the weapon's table, it's own description in the weapon's table, and is a bona-fide weapon.

Chess Pwn is incorrect. The Heavy Shield, spiked or normal, is not a light weapon, it is a one-handed weapon. However, if he's saying that the Heavy shield is treated as a light shield because of your trait, that would be correct.

4. There is no official statement that bashing doesn't work on a spiked shield. There's a FAQ that says virtual enhancements don't stack. But a spiked shield is a weapon "in its own right.", not a virtual enhancement of a shield. A spiked shield has its own entry in the weapons table and its own damage die. Most people don't recognize that the Ultimate Equipment entry for spiked shields added the "weapon in its own right" language. As a result, many people insist a spiked shield is defined as a shield with shield spikes and consider that a virtual damage increase.

The problem with bashing is that it cannot be cast on a weapon, so there is some sentiment that it won't work on improving the damage done by spikes. You'll most likely find that people who read the boards will insist it's not allowed while those who don't will allow it as the rules don't suggest otherwise.

The PDT has been silent on this matter and has never clarified whether a spiked shield can benefit from Bashing or lead blades. Granted, the former is not the same as the latter, so it's possible bashing may not work but lead blades will.

6. It's not 100% clear if you can add masterworks shield spikes to a non-masterworks shield. It's not 100% clear if you can add shields spikes to a shield at a later date. It's not 100% clear if the shield spiked can be of one material and the shield of another and what benefit would apply.

Some people think you can take a mithral shield and add adamantine spikes and have the benefits of both materials. Some do not agree.

[Aelryinth]

Welcome to the murky world of spiked shields!

And we all thank you for not mentioning the obfuscatory disaster that is the Klar.

==Aelryinth

[Protoman]

4) No. Bashing and shield spikes don't stack.

Core Rulebook PRD wrote:

Shield Spikes: These spikes turn a shield into a martial piercing weapon and increase the damage dealt by a shield bash as if the shield were designed for a creature one size category larger than you (see "spiked shields" on Table: Weapons). You can't put spikes on a buckler or a tower shield. Otherwise, attacking with a spiked shield is like making a shield bash attack.

An enhancement bonus on a spiked shield does not improve the effectiveness of a shield bash made with it, but a spiked shield can be made into a magic weapon in its own right.

Shield Spikes could be a magic weapon in its own right since the Core Rulebook. Heck even since D&D 3.5 "in its own right" was in the shield spikes description.

The weapon entry on the table just corresponds with the Shield Spikes text. Table says 1d4 for light shield spikes and 1d6 for heavy shield spikes, those entries are just for easy reference for Shield Spikes' entry of "increase the damage dealt by a shield bash as if the shield were designed for a creature one size category larger than you".

Bashing weapon enhancement states:

PRD wrote:

Bashing: A shield with this special ability is designed to perform a shield bash. A bashing shield deals damage as if it were a weapon of two size categories larger (a Medium light shield thus deals 1d6 points of damage and a Medium heavy shield deals 1d8 points of damage). The shield acts as a +1 weapon when used to bash. Only light and heavy shields can have this ability.

Both are effective size increases to damage.

There's several interpretations of shield spikes' damage:

A) Shield spikes are a separate weapon doing 1d6 for heavy spiked shield and 1d4 for light spiked shield, and not virtual size increase, so would stack with any virtual size increases.

Lead blades casted on shield spikes or shield spikes with impact would work, but not on the shield itself.

However in this case, the bashing enhancement specifically states it affects shields, with listed examples of light shield increasing from 1d3 to 1d6, and heavy shield increasing from 1d4 to 1d8. Since shield spikes are separate weapons, bashing doesn't interact with it.

B) Shield spikes modifies shield bash damage to be a size larger.

Shield Spikes' text "increase the damage dealt by a shield bash as if the shield were designed for a creature one size category larger than you" means shield spikes is an effective weapon size increase.

According to the FAQ which makes clear that:

FAQ wrote:

effective size increases (which includes “deal damage as if they were one size category larger than they actually are,” “your damage die type increases by one step,” and similar language). They don’t stack with each other, just take the biggest one.

Bashing is obviously an effective size increase. They don't stack. Take the bigger one.

D&D 3.5 had an FAQ allowing bashing and shield spikes to stack with wording supporting effective size increases to stack with one another. But Pathfinder's own FAQ nixed that old combination.

[Aelryinth]

Note: You don't cast spells on the shield spikes, and the spikes aren't considered a 'separate weapon'. They are a part of the shield. It's a spiked shield, not a shield + Spikes (unlike armor spikes, which ARE separate).

i.e., by the rules, mithril spikes on an adamantium shield do not penetrate DR/Silver, but they do punch Dr/Adamantium.

==Aelryinth

[N N 959]

Protoman wrote:

Shield Spikes could be a magic weapon in its own right since the Core Rulebook. Heck even since D&D 3.5 "in its own right" was in the shield spikes description.

While the PRD says a "spiked shield" can be made into a magic weapon in its own right, it does not say that a spiked shield is a weapon in its own right. The more recent Ultimate Equipment publication does. That language was specifically added.

A spiked shield is not a shield with a virtual damage increase, it is, by RAW, it's own weapon. You do not attack with shield spikes, you attack with a spiked shield. No language in the spiked shield description uses the "as if" language identified in the FAQ.

PRD wrote:

Spiked Shield, Heavy or Light: You can bash with a spiked shield instead of using it for defense.

As you can see, no "as if" language exists. Furthermore, if there were no shield spikes or shield entry in the core rulebook, that would not affect a spiked shield. Nothing in the table entry or the weapons description requires that we reference the shield or shield spikes to determine the damage.

The fact that shield spikes exists, suggests that we can take a normal shield and create a "spiked shield." But when you do this, you have a "weapon in its own right" and no longer need to refer to any other weapon to determine the damage.

Protoman wrote:

D&D 3.5 had an FAQ allowing bashing and shield spikes to stack with wording supporting effective size increases to stack with one another. But Pathfinder's own FAQ nixed that old combination.

The FAQ does not claim what you state. The FAQ talks about virtual size increases not stacking. The FAQ does not establish that a spiked shield is a virtual size increase.

This, however, does not automatically mean that bashing will work. At least one designer has unofficially suggested it would not because of the nature of what you can put the bashing quality on. Apparently the underlying concern is that a 2d6 off-hand weapon is a violation of some unwritten rule, regardless of what it costs or how effective it actually is in use.

[T.]

Hello again ^^
Thank you so much for your response and sorry, I've lost sense of time reading tons of information and talking with my GM. All of your responses have been very helpful. It seems there is only "one controversial" point; It won't resolve the disparity of opinions but I'd like to share what my GM and I agreed with for this game in particular.

But I think I should say that, despite of that agreement, I can see why I can be read as they stack and it don't seem extremely powerful; with the invested money it gives you an extra d6 to the damage (it already does 1d6 of damage); as if it was, for example, flaming but the damage it's not of any energy type.

-> If the Spiked shield it's a kind of shield on his own, it can't be enhanced with "Bashing" because of the "Only light and heavy shields can have this ability" restriction.

-> If it is a shield with spikes attached to it, they don't stack as per FAQ and the almost identical wording of both things.

About my second question, Mithral would be an option if I had enough money, but at first levels (1-3) I don't have 1.000gp to spend on a shield.

- There is a very cheap/costless way to reduce the heavy shield penalty to 0? Making it of masterwork quality it is reduced to -1.

One last point, which I don't see any answer, it's:

- With the "Shield Slam" feat the enemy is always affected by a Bull Rush or the player choose when he want to use it?

Thanks in advance for giving your time reading that long post and for the answers.
Finally, apologize for typos and misspellings.

[Chemlak]

Re: Shield Slam.

By the text, you always get the bull rush. That's RAW.

However, most GMs will let you choose whether you do or not (and I'd consider it quite churlish to not give you the choice).