How do I (as GM) explain the presence of daemons on the material plane (and a few other questions about Abaddon and a possible connection to Urgathoa)


Rules Questions


For the weird fun of it, I've inflicted a few daemons on the PCs in my campaign (a few Vulnadaemons and, more problematically, a Derghodaemon). How do I justify in my own mind having these daemons on the material plane (helping a powerful evil magus and an evil alchemist). The planar ally and binding spells seem a little limited to explain daemons acting as, essentially, guards. Is there another mechanism? What rules are there about portals between planes?

Also, are you aware of any magic items that produce a dismissal-type effect? Ideally single use. If not, any suggestions for the form of such an item?

Also, are there any magic items that are essentially portals between planes?

Finally, is there any association between Urgathoa and Abaddon? Apollyon (the Horseman of Pestilence) certainly seems to have thematic overlap. Urgathoa is an element in my campaign, so some connection could be useful...

Thanks!

Sovereign Court

The trivial explanation: as part of the payment for a planar binding/ally job, the daemon demanded some shore leave on the prime material plane before going back to Abaddon.

So, if the party is upset about all these daemons, there's a wizard somewhere who's to blame. And the daemons might think it's funny to tell the PCs who it is. Because daemons are jerks.

The connection between Urgathoa and the daemons is quite obscure. Inner Sea Gods has a nice article about Urgathoa (and gorgeous art, pun intended). It says that Urgathoa was invited by the daemons to take up residence in Abaddon, and that she and her followers are free from molestation there; and that nobody really knows why. But outside their domain, there are rows and rows of daemons, looking in....


Dismissal/Banishment items can take a variety of shapes, but personally, I'm fond of special holy symbols or magical implements designed to match the creator's personality. Basically, the sort of thing someone can whip out on a moment's notice to banish a hostile outsider, either as a show of faith or a demonstration of power. Palm-sized, probably, maybe loaded into spring-loaded wrist sheaths if they're particularly on guard for trouble. Naturally, they crumble to dust (or whatever) after they're used. XD

Magic items that offer portals between planes are quite rare, and often chancy. Planar travel is fairly difficult at best unless you're very powerful to begin with, although I like to think that some major locations have it as a service (especially going to major planar cities, like the City of Brass).


Let's see how well I can type this on tablet...

Well, daemons really crave only one thing and that is souls. To my logic, if offered souls and the offered conditions fit their personal tastes, I would see no problem in powerful spellcasters having bound daemons as guards.

Vulnudaemons would probably demand to be able to wander around and kill people at their leisure. Often cults that summon them devise a secret hand gesture that protects them from Vulnudaemons. I would think that if they were offered a soul gem a day they could be convinced to guard a place, and if intruders are common I would say they do not need even that.

Derghodaemons are frigging terrifying, but they can also be bound. They just require 8 HD worth of still living both before and after their service. Even then it would probably be best to have the inner sanctum protected with permanent magic circle against evil or something like that.

Now to the mechanical part, which for me is always the most important bit. Vulnudaemons can be called easily, Lesser Planar Binding or Ally work well enough for them, just remember to have a victim on hand for them to murder. Derghodaemon on the other needs a lot more powerful calling spell, but 9th level wizard or cleric could call it with a Scroll of Planar Binding and item called Caller's Feather.

http://www.archivesofnethys.com/MagicWondrousDisplay.aspx?FinalName=Caller% 27s%20Feather

Awesome item, makes Calling so much easier. Also, if you want an Urgathoan Cultist who specializes in Calling daemons, Augment Calling is a fantastic feat, and that caller would not even need to use Caller's Feather for Derghodaemon.

http://www.archivesofnethys.com/FeatDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Augment%20Calling

Soul Gems that these awful little nasties like are also pretty simple to make http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/c/create-soul-gem

One peasant soul is worth around a 100gp, so these monsters are not that cheap to keep around. Can totally see evil magus binding his victims souls though: Spell Blending arcana would allow him/her to learn that spell.

Oh, and for planar travel, Cubic Gate is insanely expensive but possible solution.
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/wondrous-items/c-d/cubic -gate


Daemons, like ghosts, sometimes haunt the material world near their point of death, and each represent a special kind of death. So, knowing this, your BBEG might have engineered a few convenient deaths to gain some powerful guardians. Not only would it explain the presence of the daemons, it would also further build the BBEG's character for your players.

As for dismissal items, I don't know any other than scrolls, but you could make yourself with the custom items rules. If they're meant as a tool to fight the previously mentioned daemons, how about specially infused holly water?


Thanks, everyone! These are some great ideas. I think I will invent and plant a single use magic item with a dismissal effect. Otherwise, I think we are looking at a possible Derghodaemon TPK. The idea of making it some sort of holy symbol is a good one. Any idea of a deity who would be in opposition to daemons or Urgathoa? Having it a deity from somewhere obscure like Mwangi or Vudra or Tien (or any other obscure place) would fit well in terms of the particularities of the encounter (which is happening in a room that has trinkets gathered from an evil magus' world travels).

It seems a good fit to have an Urgathoan Cultist in the background having performed the summoning. This is actually more of a trap than guards just hanging around, so the evil baddie could have timed the calling and had an Urgathoan Cultist to do it. I just need to figure out what level such a cultist would need to be. I guess 11th level to cast Planar Ally with either the caller's feather or an augment calling feat.

I guess with an good explanation for the calling, I don't need any sort of portal. Although I was musing about some kind of modified portal that did harm to non-daemons who tried to pass through. But that is a pretty major item to introduce to the game, and unnecessary it seems.


Also, the Roads to Hell article from the Inferno Gate indicates there are open portals between prime material worlds and the outer planes all over the place, though they can be hard to detect.

Most of the portals aren't very big, and so could easily be blocked on one side of the other.

So there can just be an open gate to Abaddon somewhere, that only allows limited traffic to avoid drawing mortal attention to it (which could result in it getting shut down or bottled up.

And so daemons wandering the world may well have earned the right from whatever daemon controls the Abaddon side of a portal to go through and have fun.

Edit: Pretty much any good deity or emperial lord, and pretty much any non-evil death god, has issues with Urgathoa and with the daemons of Abaddon.

(Heck, most LE and CE gods dislike daemons too.)

So pretty much anybody works for a god that wants less daemons on the prime.

And since anything goes, I propose the Monkey King, and that the dismissal item be a staff that needs to be smashed over the daemon's head to banish it. =P

Sovereign Court

Well, Urgathoa's biggest enemy is of course Pharasma. Who also happens to be worshipped all over Golarion; she's in the Tien pantheon as well.

But I get the sense you're looking for someone more exotic. You might take a look at Shizuru - the Tien stand-in for Iomedae. (Sun, honor, katanas...) Especially since the Tien god of undeath (Fumeiyoshi) is one of her enemies. Tsukiyo (a revived victim of Fumeiyoshi) is another candidate.

The Osirian pantheon also has options, like Anubis and Osiris.


Thanks, folks! More excellent ideas.


Voomer wrote:

For the weird fun of it, I've inflicted a few daemons on the PCs in my campaign (a few Vulnadaemons and, more problematically, a Derghodaemon). How do I justify in my own mind having these daemons on the material plane (helping a powerful evil magus and an evil alchemist). The planar ally and binding spells seem a little limited to explain daemons acting as, essentially, guards. Is there another mechanism? What rules are there about portals between planes?

Also, are you aware of any magic items that produce a dismissal-type effect? Ideally single use. If not, any suggestions for the form of such an item?

Also, are there any magic items that are essentially portals between planes?

Finally, is there any association between Urgathoa and Abaddon? Apollyon (the Horseman of Pestilence) certainly seems to have thematic overlap. Urgathoa is an element in my campaign, so some connection could be useful...

Thanks!

Here's a concept. Story Events... events which are not tied down to rules mechanics... such as the creation of Golarion's Worldwound which lets in demons by the truckload.


Yeah, I hear you. There is plenty of that in my campaign, but I think it is a useful exercise to think through the mechanics. It helps give me a sense of how far out I am going, and even more importantly it forces some hard thinking about logical connections (such as the connection between daemons and Urgathoa) and opens neat story possibilities I had not even thought of (such as the Tien Goddess Shizuru, who I did not even know about but turns out to be perfect for this situation). By forcing myself to think harder, it creates opportunities for learning and discovery.


Voomer wrote:
Yeah, I hear you. There is plenty of that in my campaign, but I think it is a useful exercise to think through the mechanics. It helps give me a sense of how far out I am going, and even more importantly it forces some hard thinking about logical connections (such as the connection between daemons and Urgathoa) and opens neat story possibilities I had not even thought of (such as the Tien Goddess Shizuru, who I did not even know about but turns out to be perfect for this situation). By forcing myself to think harder, it creates opportunities for learning and discovery.

I can pretty much guarantee that when the world creators at Paizo were scripting the history of the Worldwound, they didn't bother asking themselves the creation formula for the artifact used in doing the deed.

As the folks of Ars Magica were fond of saying...the rules of magic item creation are intended to define the options for the players, not limit them for NPCs.


Yup. If you want/need to have a plot-related item or artifact, then you can just make it. Give it a backstory if you'd like, but don't feel you have to limit yourself to the options in the book. Most longer adventures (including some modules and, like, all APs) have at least a few wholly original items the players can't duplicate, and this is completely intentional. In a world where players can craft, having a small number of unique items helps maintain a sense that they've found something truly rare and special.

For NPC-only stuff, don't even worry about that, and just go with a story that fits them. XD (Wizards researched it, Clerics got a divine intervention, etc.)

The Exchange

If the players think to ask, you can open up a plot point about some kind of seasonal event that allows daemons to pass bodily into your campaign world - some Walpurgisnacht or Blood Moon or Curse of the Eclipse that has been exploited by the villain in order to augment his forces. Making it a time, rather than a place, explains why he doesn't just keep pulling in reinforcements.

Sovereign Court

Lincoln Hills wrote:
If the players think to ask, you can open up a plot point about some kind of seasonal event that allows daemons to pass bodily into your campaign world - some Walpurgisnacht or Blood Moon or Curse of the Eclipse that has been exploited by the villain in order to augment his forces. Making it a time, rather than a place, explains why he doesn't just keep pulling in reinforcements.

Also, it gives you a nice feeling of impending doom, once you learn that this time was just the tryouts for the caster and next year is going to be the grand premiere.

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