The Other |
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Dear all,
I hope this post finds you well. I am currently engrossed in the delightfully meaty process of designing my first PFS character, and have come across Secret Wizard's enticing TWF Mantis Zealot build:
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Traits: Hedge Magician, Artisan
Blessings: Trickery (not sure why s/he only listed one?)
Feats:
1. Two-Weapon Fighting, BONUS: Weapon Focus
3. Power Attack, BONUS: Double Slice
5. Craft Weapons and Armor
6. BONUS: Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, FCB: Weapon Specialization
7. Craft Wondrous Item
9. Lunge, BONUS: Improved Critical
11. Critical Focus
12. BONUS: Greater Two-Weapon Fighting, FCB: Two-Weapon Rend
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My understanding is that item creation is not PFS legal, and I have therefore developed the following tweak, centered on Quicken Blessing: War and the synergy with Improved Critical:
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Traits: Fate's Favored, Ancestral Weapon: Sawtooth Sabre
Blessings: War, Trickery
Feats:
1. Two-Weapon Fighting, BONUS: Weapon Focus
3. Quicken Blessing: War, BONUS: Double Slice
5. Power Attack
6. BONUS: Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, FCB: Weapon Specialization
7. Improved Initiative
9. Lunge, BONUS: Improved Critical
11. Critical Focus
12. BONUS: Greater Two-Weapon Fighting, FCB: Two-Weapon Rend
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I have a few of questions for you, if I may:
1) Should I swap QB: War and Improved Initiative? I like the idea of having War Mind on Swift action for all of those levels.
2) Battle Lust + Improved Critical is enticing, given TWF. However, do you have any ideas, other than Fervor self-healing, that can help mitigate all of the nonlethal damage?
3) Should Power Attack or Double Slice come first?
4) Do you have any other general reactions or suggestions for this type of build?
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Thank you for your consideration, as always.
The Other
Chess Pwn |
Quicken Blessing needs the major power that you don't get till lv10.
It's debated if the FCB lets you pick a fighter feat or just a combat feat. So weapon specialization could be an issue.
Why don't you worship the god that gives Sawtooth Sabre proficiency for free for you?
power attack isn't super great for 2WF because you take the penalties twice but only get 1.5 benefit.
Saldiven |
power attack isn't super great for 2WF because you take the penalties twice but only get 1.5 benefit.
I was going to mention this, too.
All the DPR calculators I've played with show that Power Attacking on a TWF build will result in a reduction in DPR except against a narrow range of ACs for any given attack bonus.
Chess Pwn |
An option would be to go Arsenal chaplain since you were going war blessing anyways. This gives you weapon training at lv5 instead of channel energy and only having the one blessing. This adds more accuracy and damage which is good for a 2wf. also can boost this further with the fighter gloves.
Also look at the feat Dual Enhancement as it's a big help for 2wf's who can use it.
The Other |
Thank you both very much for your helpful responses.
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@Chess Pwn: Anchaekek does grant this character proficiency in Sawtooth Sabre. Ancestral Weapon is not for proficiency, but for the following:
You have inherited a sacred tribal weapon wielded by your forebears, and you were trained in its use from a young age.
Benefit(s) Select either cold iron or silver. You begin play with a masterwork melee weapon made of the material of your choice. You must be proficient with this weapon, and its combined cost cannot exceed 500 gp.
You gain a +1 trait bonus on attack rolls with weapons made of the selected material.
Also, as I read it, the FCB should count for fighter feats.
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This build will be built (in part) around the Trickery major blessing (Greater Invisibility) and sneak attack, as Secret Wizard designed it; the Mantis Zealot archetype is set. My question is: how do I optimize the open feat slots (from Secret Wizard's build) if I am not crafting? Quicken Blessing: War would allow War Mind as a swift action until level 10, when I transition to using Greater Invisibility.
If I lose Power Attack, which seems viable, I would then have three slots available, at level 3, 5, and 7.
Of course I very much appreciate all of your input as I work on this build. This is all quite new to me, and I am much obliged.
The Other
Chess Pwn |
Quicken blessing can't be taken lv3 because you don't qualify till lv10, so lv11 or you retrain at lv10. Waiting till lv 10 or 11 for your blessing to pay out is a long time.
And just because YOU say it counts as a fighter doesn't mean ALL your GM's will agree with you. And if one of them doesn't then it's an illegal character at his table and needs to be marked as dead or fixed.
And Ancestral Weapon isn't a legal trait. "Traits: all traits on pages 7–23 are legal, except ancestral weapon..."
TimD |
First of all, welcome to PFS :)
Keep in mind that most PFS play stops at 11th level, at this point very little goes to 12 or beyond. Make sure you character will be fun throughout and not just built for top-end play.
That said, the build looks very similar to my warpriest of Tanagaar / Unchained Rogue build, albeit without the dex to damage and with more spells. I considered a warpriest for one of my Red Mantis-worshipping characters, but in the end decided inquisitor was a better choice.
The Other |
@Chess Pwn: Thank you very much for all of these clarifications. I totally missed that about Quicken Blessing. Also, it makes sense that Ancestral Weapon isn't legal, as it seems rather powerful. And of course you are right about the FCB; I will have to ask the GMs around here. Are you aware of any Paizo stipulation on the matter?
This all helps a great deal. Tim, I've thought about the Inquisitor as well. Something about these Sawtooth Sabres has me sticking with this build, however.
Lots of food for thought here. Will be playing around with it this eve.
Many thanks, as always,
The Other
The Other |
Hi all,
Here's my latest Mantis Zealot build, focusing on Combat Reflexes and Step Up. Please let me know what you think:
1. Two-Weapon Fighting, BONUS: Weapon Focus
3. Step Up BONUS: Combat Reflexes
5. Following Step
6. BONUS: Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, FCB: Step Up And Strike
7. Improved Initiative
9. Lunge, BONUS: Improved Critical
11. Critical Focus
Thank you, as always,
The Other
P.S. Of course, if I could find a way to get myself enlarged somewhere in there, things would get very interesting with the Sawtooth Sabres. Any thoughts are appreciated.
The Other |
Hi Chess and all,
This is an excellent question, and the answer is that I'm not entirely sure.
The first reason I included it is because I read that it was a must for Step Up builds. Admittedly, I don't fully understand this.
Perhaps one reason is that Step Up and Strike uses one AoO, so Combat Reflexes would ensure that I would always be able to make use of my normal AoO. Given the mobility that Step Up and Strike grants, along with some of the Cleric spells and Blessings that come with being a Warpriest, I could see it benefiting me. But I don't really have a good answer.
If someone else does that is reading this, please chime in.
Regardless of Combat Reflexes, Chess, do you think that the Step Up line is a good addition to this build, seeing how reliant it is on full attacks and flanking (for Mantis Zealot sneak attack)?
Thank you, as always,
The Other
Suthainn |
Thematically the Step up and Strike chain is a great idea, the inescapable assassin who follows you everywhere is fantastic, however, it might just be my experience but the frequency with which someone tries to 5ft step away in combat from characters seems... on the low end. If you're seeing it a lot in games then go with it but for me it's a lot of feats for something I don't see getting to much use out of.
Boring as they are I'd probably see more mileage out of Power Attack, Double Slice (despite it being a painful feat tax), Two Weapon Rend and so on.
Chess Pwn |
Ah yes, didn't remember that the strike used an AoO, then yes, you do have a way of generating them.
Now step up probably wont help you with the full attack issue. Normally if they 5ft away you 5ft on your turn and then you can full attack them.
It's best for reach weapon using enemies and mages, they often think they can step back and cast and after you follow you still threaten for when they actually do cast.
for feats ideas, two weapon rend is actually quite good for str based 2wf. You could also consider the route to get an animal companion or familiar using your feats.
Personally, If I were making this kind of character I'd go Arsenal Chaplain Warpriest of the mantis god. Pick up Dual Enhancement at lv5. I'd miss out on the trickery domain and instead of getting a 1d6 sneak attack at lv4 and another at 8 I'm getting a +1 to attack and damage buff at those levels. Then at lv5 I'm getting another always on +1 to attack and damage that goes up at lv9. Plus I could also opt for mithral breastplate for more AC.
using the conversion that +1 accuracy is ~+2 damage
at lv4 I have a swift action buff for +3 damage, you have a situational +1d6~3.5 damage.
at lv8 I have a swift action buff for +6 and always on +3, you have a situational +2d6 ~7
Then at lv9, at the latest, you can afford the "fighter gloves" to have your weapon training go up to +4s. Plus at lv9 using your fighter feat you can take the Advanced Weapon Training feat to get
Defensive Weapon Training (Ex) The fighter gains a +(2) shield bonus to his Armor Class. The fighter adds half his weapon's enhancement bonus (if any) to this shield bonus.
or any other AWT option you'd like.
So lv9 I have +4 always to attack and damage. +6 ac and a swift action to get another +2 to attack and damage. compared to your 2d6 sneak attack and trickery blessing.
The Other |
Thanks all - yes, Dual Enhancement is clutch. Props to Chess. Also props on the Arsenal Chaplain. As I'm rolling with Sawtooths, the Sacred Weapon hit isn't as painful, and the Weapon Training is killer.
So I've been toying around a good bit at this point, and haven't yet locked down all of the feat slots. I'm not high on Double Slice, as Two-Weapon Rend only comes into play at level 12, which may not ever happen. People seem to be down on Power Attack for TWF as well, though I admittedly don't fully understand this.
I plan on paying the 4K for two Keen enchantments ASAP, so no need for Improved Critical.
Here is what I've been fooling with, with a couple of different feat trees:
TWF Arsenal Chaplain Warpriest of Achaekek
Race: Dual-Talent Human
Traits: Fate's Favored, Reactionary
18(16+2)
17(15+2)
12
10
14
7
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1. Two-Weapon Fighting, BONUS: Weapon Focus
3. Point-Blank Shot BONUS: Deadly Aim
5. Dual Enhancement
6. BONUS: Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, FCB: Lunge
7. Precise Shot
9. Defensive Weapon Training BONUS: Critical Focus
11. ???
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1. Two-Weapon Fighting, BONUS: Weapon Focus
3. Power Attack BONUS: Furious Focus
5. Dual Enhancement
6. BONUS: Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, FCB: Lunge
7. Deadly Aim
9. Defensive Weapon Training BONUS: Critical Focus
11. ???
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1. Two-Weapon Fighting, BONUS: Weapon Focus
3. Deadly Aim BONUS: Improved Initiative
5. Dual Enhancement
6. BONUS: Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, FCB: Lunge
7. Point-Blank Shot
9. Defensive Weapon Training BONUS: Critical Focus
11. ???
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1. Two-Weapon Fighting, BONUS: Weapon Focus
3. Defiant Luck BONUS: Improved Initiative
5. Dual Enhancement
6. BONUS: Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, FCB: Lunge
7. Inexplicable Luck
9. Defensive Weapon Training BONUS: Critical Focus
11. ???
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Also, I'm looking for ways to efficiently Enlarge Person or use Lead Blades to push the Sabres to 2d6. Ideas? Going to give the Sabres Keen, so I don't see myself using Impact, but could certainly be convinced.
Lastly, ways to mitigate nonlethal damage / prevent myself from dying to Battle Lust?
Thank you, as always,
The Other
Chess Pwn |
Here is why Power Attack is bad for 2wf
DPR for lv6 warpriest against CR6 ac19.
Hit = 4(bab)+5(str)+1(magic weapon)+1(WT)+3(divine favor and trait)-2(2wf)+1(weapon focus) = 13
damage = 1d8+5str+3df+1mw+1wt=1d8+10 /1d8+7
attack sequence = +13 (1d8+10) & +13/+8 (1d8+7)
DPR = 27.20
DPR for lv6 against CR8 ac21 : 23.19
DPR for lv6 with PA against CR6 ac19 :28.28
DPR for lv6 with PA against CR8 ac21 : 23.41
So power attack is giving 1 damage increase against equal CR enemies and +.22 against "bosses"
So if you can get Higher accuracy bonuses than listed you start seeing greater returns for power attack. But it is a slow increase. like getting +2 to attack rolls nets a +1 against bosses instead of +.22. weapon specialization +2 damage a hit, is netting a +3.5 DPR against the boss at this accuracy.
So, do you feel a feat is worth a +1 or less increase in your Damage Per Round? I sure don't, any many others don't as well. Thus we tell you that power attack isn't worth taking if 2wf.
maybe as your lv9 or lv11 feat you'd have enough attack bonuses to make it worthwhile. But that's a maybe.
Chess Pwn |
Any healing heals both HP and Non-lethal, so some healing will do a lot for mitigating battle lust.
Also getting 2 keen weapons would cost 16000. you need your weapon to be a +1 before you can add special abilities like Keen. And so a +1 keen weapon cost the same as a +2 weapon 8,000gp.
Also I recommend a stat line of
17+2/14+2/14/7/14/7
and then put your lv4 increase into dex to qualify for ITWF and your lv8 into str.
This gets 1 less skill point per level than your stats, but 1 HP more per level. And I think the HP is worth it. You're a d8 hit die doing FCB into not hp.
Saldiven |
Saldiven wrote:I second Dual Enhancement if you're going TWF. I had forgotten about that one....The mantis zealot trades out the sacred weapon for sneak attack. So he has nothing to qualify with for dual enhancement.
Ah, good point. I wasn't thinking about the archetype restrictions.
Whenever I've played with a TWF Warpriest, I've just gone vanilla.
Chess Pwn |
toughness might be a good feat to pick up since you'll be on the front lines.
I can't think of any feats off hand that would help your combat effectiveness. But you're probably pretty set with that with the feats you have. So maybe going with some skill feats or feats to increase your AC or saves? Maybe get yourself an animal companion or a familiar?
The Other |
Another thought for you Chess, and anyone else who might be listening:
What if I take Power Attack and Quick Draw at Lvl 3, and generally make the opening round of combat be swift action Divine Favor, move to enemy, two-hand Power Attack with Sabre,
and then following rounds swift action Sacred Weapon, Quick Draw second sabre, full attack: Power Attack on main hand roll, regular attack on off-hand?
The Other |
Also, for the ability scores, I think it makes sense for me to stick with
16+2/15+2/12/10/14/7
Because if I go to 7 Int, I will not gain any skill ranks until 7th level, as I will be taking FCB and only have 2 ranks/level.
Also, from 16 to 17 costs three points, whereas 14 to 15 costs two. So I think it makes more sense to put both ability increases into Strength, and just start out at 17 Dex.
This may force me to take Toughness, however, as you mentioned.
Imbicatus |
Another thought for you Chess, and anyone else who might be listening:
What if I take Power Attack and Quick Draw at Lvl 3, and generally make the opening round of combat be swift action Divine Favor, move to enemy, two-hand Power Attack with Sabre,
and then following rounds swift action Sacred Weapon, Quick Draw second sabre, full attack: Power Attack on main hand roll, regular attack on off-hand?
You can't apply power attack to only your main hand. Once you use it, it's on until your next turn.
claudekennilol |
For all that I've seen in the forums about people saying a PFS gm saying that it won't work usually doesn't matter. My eleventh level pfs warpriest (and other high level characters, I just mention the warpriest because this topic is about that class) has survived gms through cons, game days, and random pfs without anyone ever asking where any one of my specific feats came from. (Well, there was one time with a specific character where the gm asked how I had so many feats and obviously I was able to tell him where they all came from)
As long as you're making a good faith effort to make what you believe is a legal character in PFS you'll be fine 95% of the time.
Because if I go to 7 Int, I will not gain any skill ranks until 7th level, as I will be taking FCB and only have 2 ranks/level.
This is wrong. You get a minimum of one per level. So 2 for warpriest minus 2 for low int equals 1. If you're human then you get the human bonus after that for a total of 2 (I don't believe your plan is for a human but this is just for reference).
Chess Pwn |
Yeah, the change for the stats is 1 skill point per level. So while it cuts your skills in half I feel it's needed, otherwise you might find yourself needing to run out of a fight after a solid hit.
Yes the stat point costs more. Honestly I had 3 points after getting the stats to where I wanted, so the only option was increasing str, cause if I increased dex I couldn't add the remaining 1 point anywhere.
Your DPR isn't changed much by power attack. Even your proposed solution of using it round with 2handed, while a really good approach, still doesn't cut it for me for making taking power attack worth it.
But your idea that Barbarian or TWF Ranger/Slayer gives more DPR isn't all that true. Your buffs keep you on par or ahead of them for most of the time. Now they'll have a bit more survivability with their better Hit Die, but none get as much spellcasting as you will. If you wanted to though, taking a level of barb and then grabbing the extra rage feat could give you a quick boost to power and give you something to use your feats on. You swift cast divine favor, then rage. Then everything else is SU so you can use it while raging.
The Other |
What about this: go Half-Orc for Gore Fiend and Sacred Tattoo. Something like this:
Sacred Tattoo Half-Orc
Fate’s Favored, Reactionary
Lvl 1 Barbarian (Lvl 1): Two-Weapon Fighting
Lvl 1 Warpriest (Lvl 2): Bonus: Weapon Focus
Lvl 2 Warpriest (Lvl 3): Extra Rage
Lvl 3 Warpriest (Lvl 4): Bonus: Gore Fiend (+1 Dex)
Lvl 4 Warpriest (Lvl 5): Dual Enhancement
Lvl 5 Warpriest (Lvl 6): ---
Lvl 6 Warpriest (Lvl 7): ???, BONUS: Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, FCB: Lunge
Lvl 7 Warpriest (Lvl 8): Bonus: Quicken Blessing (+1 Con)
Lvl 8 Warpriest (Lvl 9): ???
Lvl 9 Warpriest (Lvl10): Defensive Weapon Training BONUS: Critical Focus
Lvl10 Warpriest (Lvl11): Divine Intervention
Very interesting idea with the Barbarian dip. Great starting HP, Rage, Movement, Perception class skill...I would obviously have to hold off on the Sabres until Lvl 2. Rage also has excellent synergy with Battle Lust, although, if I understand multiclassing correctly, this will only come online at Lvl 11. Lvl 11 would be fun, though.
Additionally, it should be easy for the Warpriest to remove the fatigue after raging.
I have to run, will check back in a couple of hours.
Chess Pwn |
I'd personally swap the con and the wis, better to have more HP sooner, and you can use a headband to bump the wis up too, while you can't for con since you'll be taking the str belt.
Be sure to go Unchained barb, it'll work much better for you than the normal barb.
since you have open feats I'd suggest extra rage again, going from 12 rounds to 18 rounds means you'll never run out, while 12 can get iffy.
I'd trade critical focus for improved crit, it's so expensive to add keen, I'd recommend furious over keen.
Taking extra rage is much better than gore fiend. You'd need 6 crits a day to equal extra rage, and 7 to be better than it. I'd take Dodge at that level, yeah it's not that exciting, but AC helps, and then extra rage again at lv7. And then toughness could be your lv9 if you can't think of anything better.
But he looks like a sick combatant, I like it.
claudekennilol |
I really, really love a two-handed weapon using warpriest. That being said it looks like what you've got will work pretty well.
I'd go bloodrager over barbarian if you're only taking a 1 level dip. It opens up so much more. You get the same Rage, Movement, Perception class skill. You're basically trading 2hp for a bloodline(!) and the ability to use a lot of useful arcane wands. I'd take the Celestial bloodline because that's about the most useful (imo) for using weapons and will also be very useful for PFS.
Chess Pwn |
The Ubarb gives +2 to hit and damage and isn't reduced for off hand, and you'll be getting temp HP, which is good.
Bloodrager is Less HP, no temp HP, and only +1 damage on off hand, but arcane wands. Also you can trade your bloodline power for either a familiar (bloodline familiar) or an extra +2 str -2 dex and power attack while raging (id rager, anger focus)
claudekennilol |
The Ubarb gives +2 to hit and damage and isn't reduced for off hand, and you'll be getting temp HP, which is good.
Bloodrager is Less HP, no temp HP, and only +1 damage on off hand, but arcane wands. Also you can trade your bloodline power for either a familiar (bloodline familiar) or an extra +2 str -2 dex and power attack while raging (id rager, anger focus)
That's true, I didn't consider the offhand penalty from it being a traditional rage.
p.s. One feat you'll need is Mad Magic so that you can cast your warpriest spells while raging. For my warpriest I'm often spending the first two to three rounds of each combat swift-casting (via fervor) spells. If you're raging, you can't cast your warpriest spells without this feat.
claudekennilol |
Hm, I'd have to check my character sheet. Since I'm a prepared caster I've got my regular spells on the sheet and not in my local pdfs.
Off the top of my head... Obviously Divine Favor first.. Sometimes shield of faith or protection from ___. Sometimes Cleromancy. Casting Silence on yourself and then moving up to a caster is one of the best things I can do to take out a caster (that's in addition to moving and attacking). Divine Power if haste isn't available. Those are probably most of the short-term ones I use in combat. (oh, and Cure X Wounds as needed).
The Other |
Gentlemen, what do you think about the addition of Endurance>Diehard>Deathless Initiate to the build? I would go Mystic Half-Orc, which gives me Sacred Tattoo and Shaman's Apprentice, the latter granting the bonus feat Endurance (and thus avoiding the feat tax). These feats fit quite nicely into the build:
Lvl 1 Barbarian (Lvl 1): Two-Weapon Fighting
Lvl 1 Warpriest (Lvl 2): Bonus: Weapon Focus
Lvl 2 Warpriest (Lvl 3): Extra Rage
Lvl 3 Warpriest (Lvl 4): Bonus: Diehard (+1 Dex)
Lvl 4 Warpriest (Lvl 5): Dual Enhancement
Lvl 5 Warpriest (Lvl 6): ---
Lvl 6 Warpriest (Lvl 7): Extra Rage, BONUS: Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, FCB: Lunge
Lvl 7 Warpriest (Lvl 8): Bonus: Quicken Blessing (+1 Con)
Lvl 8 Warpriest (Lvl 9): Diehard Initiate
Lvl 9 Warpriest (Lvl10): Defensive Weapon Training BONUS: Improved Critical
Lvl10 Warpriest (Lvl11): Divine Interference
With the healing that I have, and the damage output I hope to be creating, I could foreseeably save Fervor for when I dropped below 0 hit points. I could also keep Con at 13, with the extra hit point being slightly less important, and I would gain an extra spell per day/Fervor per day for 8 levels.
The Other |
Hey Chess,
Achaekek is Lawful Evil, so I would have to be Lawful Neutral.
It's OK, it doesn't really make any sense to have a Lawful Neutral Half Orc anything, let alone one that is part or entirely Barbarian.
I'll rock the Kukris. They end up being just as good, despite being boring. I still might look at the Bloodrager as an alternative, just for fun.
I did the DPR math with the spreadsheet that is kicking around. At Lvl 11, with all buffs up (Divine Favor, Rage, Battle Lust), he's doing 193.64 DPR. This is not taking into account Finish the Fight or Haste. It would also increase to 208 if I took Weapon Specialization instead of Lunge.
Interestingly, if we trust in the spreadsheet (it seems solid), we learn that Power Attack adds all of 2.47 at this level, whereas Double Slice adds 6.91.
Critical Focus adds 2.97. However, nothing changes when I add Two-Weapon Rend, so I'm not entirely sure what is going on. The other math feels about right, however.
Note that I added the second offhand attack from Improved Two-Weapon Fighting as a Natural Attack, as it didn't seem to be showing up otherwise.
I'm still not sure about the Deathless tree. If I only have a 14 Con, how much time am I actually going to be spending in that tiny window? Maybe if I found room for Tenacious Survivor, but I don't really see the room. Going to have to think about this one.
claudekennilol |
One snafu, if anyone is still around: if I want to worship Achaekek in order to use Sawtooth Sabres, I have to be Lawful Neutral. Barbarians can't be Lawful.
I may be stuck with Kukris. No offense to Kukri fans.
You can't use your fervor to cast spells if you're raging without Mad Magic. So take that into account for when you consider "the healing you have".